Think 10% Ethanol sucks? try 15% !
01-20-2011, 11:32 PM
#51
Asshole for hire
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Heh, you guys think we have it bad, what with fear of cost, performance, and corrosion. Go look up what Ducati owners are dealing with the last 5+ years. Freaking fuel tanks deforming due to incompatibility. There are even a handful of stories of tanks that have leaked mid-ride and caught fire
01-21-2011, 12:20 AM
#53
Whats really sad also is that we as consumers are being given no choice in the matter. Our cars are 30K+ investments. Some like Erics cars are 200K investments. Yet we are given no choices on how to protect them. I bet this doesn't help the recession either. Before you could buy a car and own it for 30 years, now after 7 years most vehicles start to fail from these fuels. Just wonderful isn't it 
01-21-2011, 12:50 AM
#55
Just as I said I researched it. I didn't find a whole lot in automotive community. But I went to the AOPA forums, and a couple other aircraft forums I am registered on. I did find a lot of people having problems with not only carbon fiber, but with fiberglass fuel cells. They are having to switch to alluminum in places that have E10 or higher. Also I found information on people with fiberglass boats where the ethanol softens or eats through the boats who use the hull for fuel storage. They are also starting to show that valves break down when introduced to ethanol. Intake valves for one. They are finding corrosion and sticky intake valves. Sound familiar? They were finding trace amounts of parts of the fuel system in the intakes. They analyzed it and found out the ethanol had softened up components of the fuel system which began to redeposit on intake valve and inside of injectors. They are finding that plastics are easily disolved by ethanol then redeposited other places in the engine system. So basically from our fuel pump, to our SSV valve.
(Phthalates, or phthalate esters, are esters of phthalic acid and are mainly used as plasticizers (substances added to plastics to increase their flexibility, transparency, durability, and longevity).)
(GCMS - Gas Chromatography Mass Spectrometry )
"Phthalates are only sparingly soluble in water, however many are readily dissolved by ethanol. Whereas gasoline free from ethanol never picks up phthalates, when ethanol was introduced the very small ethanol molecules diffused into the fiberglass, filler and gel coat materials where they dissolved unreacted phthalates. Having been dissolved by smaller molecules, and almost certainly accelerated by osmotic pressure, some portion diffused back to the surface and was dispersed in the gasoline. Based on our GCMS results to date there are some other, presently unidentified, large molecules that were also leached out by the ethanol and similarly transferred into the gasoline."
"Since they are in solution, the phthalates and the other heavy dissolved molecules are able to pass through the fuel line filters. When the gasoline with ethanol evaporates in the carburetor the heavy molecules do not evaporate but come out of solution and are carried along in the air-fuel mix as an aerosol. When the droplets impinge on throttle plates and on the walls of the induction system they can collect as reported."
"Some of the molecules that impinge on the hot valve stems and under the crowns decompose to leave carbon powder and ash. Others, such as the phthalates that in general have exceptional high temperature stability, remain intact or undergo only partial decomposition and then act as the binder that holds together the carbon particles and ash as the observed"
Some of those should look very familiar
They are also having problems with one way valve systems like our oil injectors have. Basically the ethanol is capable of breaking down the plastic lines mazda chose to use. You can avoid this by making your own teflon lines. The plastic that is broken down in line, is not filtered and can clog the injectors.
(Phthalates, or phthalate esters, are esters of phthalic acid and are mainly used as plasticizers (substances added to plastics to increase their flexibility, transparency, durability, and longevity).)
(GCMS - Gas Chromatography Mass Spectrometry )
"Phthalates are only sparingly soluble in water, however many are readily dissolved by ethanol. Whereas gasoline free from ethanol never picks up phthalates, when ethanol was introduced the very small ethanol molecules diffused into the fiberglass, filler and gel coat materials where they dissolved unreacted phthalates. Having been dissolved by smaller molecules, and almost certainly accelerated by osmotic pressure, some portion diffused back to the surface and was dispersed in the gasoline. Based on our GCMS results to date there are some other, presently unidentified, large molecules that were also leached out by the ethanol and similarly transferred into the gasoline."
"Since they are in solution, the phthalates and the other heavy dissolved molecules are able to pass through the fuel line filters. When the gasoline with ethanol evaporates in the carburetor the heavy molecules do not evaporate but come out of solution and are carried along in the air-fuel mix as an aerosol. When the droplets impinge on throttle plates and on the walls of the induction system they can collect as reported."
"Some of the molecules that impinge on the hot valve stems and under the crowns decompose to leave carbon powder and ash. Others, such as the phthalates that in general have exceptional high temperature stability, remain intact or undergo only partial decomposition and then act as the binder that holds together the carbon particles and ash as the observed"
Some of those should look very familiar
They are also having problems with one way valve systems like our oil injectors have. Basically the ethanol is capable of breaking down the plastic lines mazda chose to use. You can avoid this by making your own teflon lines. The plastic that is broken down in line, is not filtered and can clog the injectors.
Last edited by DocBeech; 01-21-2011 at 01:50 AM.
01-21-2011, 02:24 PM
#56
They are also having problems with one way valve systems like our oil injectors have. Basically the ethanol is capable of breaking down the plastic lines mazda chose to use. You can avoid this by making your own teflon lines. The plastic that is broken down in line, is not filtered and can clog the injectors.
01-21-2011, 04:23 PM
#58
If you look at the oil reports we are getting back, and heres a part where I think Blackstone is getting it wrong. They are finding trace amounts of fuel in the oil. Now Blackstone says its because of our cars being city drivers, which is actually incorrect. A lot of us heavy track use cars are seeing fuel dilution in the oil. You can read through them all here:
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/used-oil-analysis-post-them-here-184241/
Our oil lines are made from a plastic that is actually not safe for use with ethanol fuel.
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/used-oil-analysis-post-them-here-184241/
Our oil lines are made from a plastic that is actually not safe for use with ethanol fuel.
01-21-2011, 05:06 PM
#62
Luckily our premixing should coat fuel system enough to stop corrosion.
Next time I buy a nice car for the wifey, I'm thinking about diesel.
No coils, wires, plugs, and they're more quiet now.
I drove a C3 Citroen that had gobs of get up and go at 1500-3000 rpm, and there's allkinds of Vw's and Audi diesels.
Next time I buy a nice car for the wifey, I'm thinking about diesel.
No coils, wires, plugs, and they're more quiet now.
I drove a C3 Citroen that had gobs of get up and go at 1500-3000 rpm, and there's allkinds of Vw's and Audi diesels.
01-21-2011, 05:24 PM
#63
ethanol unfortunately easily breaks through fuel and oil. Mixes with it and stays in it. The only way to get it out is with water. Even a small layer of oil from premixing will still have ethanol in it. Thats one of the big problems boats are having. Two stroke boats wouldn't be affected if this was the case. But unfortunately its costing boat and aircraft owners tens of thousands of dollars. I know our cost seams measly compared to theres but its still unnecessary. They are having to change out components for aluminum fuel tanks, aluminum fuel lines, new fuel pumps(on aircraft that arent gravity feed like cessna 152s).
01-21-2011, 05:52 PM
#64
Hmm, let's see...
Only 60% of the energy content of gasoline, takes more energy to produce than it produces (therefore, makes more pollution that it abates), can - at best - only replace 12% of the demand for gasoline (and only if all corn production is diverted to ethanol production), forces the entire food market to readjust, driving up the cost of all goods, is hydrophillic, so it destroys anything it comes in contact with that can corrode, has been a primary driving force in the deforestation of the Amazon, etc.
Lets throw tax money at it so that Iowa is happy so that my presidential bid has legs since that is where the primary is held...
Only 60% of the energy content of gasoline, takes more energy to produce than it produces (therefore, makes more pollution that it abates), can - at best - only replace 12% of the demand for gasoline (and only if all corn production is diverted to ethanol production), forces the entire food market to readjust, driving up the cost of all goods, is hydrophillic, so it destroys anything it comes in contact with that can corrode, has been a primary driving force in the deforestation of the Amazon, etc.
Lets throw tax money at it so that Iowa is happy so that my presidential bid has legs since that is where the primary is held...
That's why Al Gore has changed his mind about ethanol from corn.
He is no longer a proponent of this.
In place of this he wants to kill America via the Mercury light bulb.
Funny thing is we can not have a thermostat in our house with mercury because it is too dangerous and is outlawed. However after the first major earthquake...
All of our homes will be condemned due to the hazardous clean up.
Can you really clean that mercury out of your walls and floors?
01-22-2011, 12:24 AM
#65
Texas has certain (non-attainment areas) in which a certain fuel mixture is mandated, and I think that means year round 10%ethanol everywhere in those counties (no exceptions).
Those counties are ( Bexar, Travis, new), several DFW area, Harris, etc.
America is going to go bankrupt at the rate it's coming up with dumb ideas.
Just watch what's happening to LA county's budget, $600,000,000. year (yes, Millions!) just for illegal immigrants welfare. Just $21.8 Billion for all of California last year.
So we borrow money we don't have from people that are our competitors (China) to act like big shots around the world, and that sugar (social programs) on the table does'nt help in the long run.
Those counties are ( Bexar, Travis, new), several DFW area, Harris, etc.
America is going to go bankrupt at the rate it's coming up with dumb ideas.
Just watch what's happening to LA county's budget, $600,000,000. year (yes, Millions!) just for illegal immigrants welfare. Just $21.8 Billion for all of California last year.
So we borrow money we don't have from people that are our competitors (China) to act like big shots around the world, and that sugar (social programs) on the table does'nt help in the long run.
Last edited by REDRX3RX8; 01-22-2011 at 01:38 AM.
01-22-2011, 12:42 AM
#66
Razz1'
So I'm looking up more EPA nonsense, and some enterprising soul built a patented "Bulb Eater"to dispose of all those mercury bulbs in all sizes into a 55gal drum.
I ***** you not!
So I'm looking up more EPA nonsense, and some enterprising soul built a patented "Bulb Eater"to dispose of all those mercury bulbs in all sizes into a 55gal drum.
I ***** you not!
01-22-2011, 09:41 AM
#68
SARX Legend
iTrader: (46)
Texas has certain (non-attainment areas) in which a certain fuel mixture is mandated, and I think that means year round 10%ethanol everywhere in those counties (no exceptions).
Those counties are ( Bexar, Travis, new), several DFW area, Harris, etc.
America is going to go bankrupt at the rate it's coming up with dumb ideas.
Just watch what's happening to LA county's budget, $600,000,000. year (yes, Millions!) just for illegal immigrants welfare. Just $21.8 Billion for all of California last year.
So we borrow money we don't have from people that are our competitors (China) to act like big shots around the world, and that sugar (social programs) on the table does'nt help in the long run.
Those counties are ( Bexar, Travis, new), several DFW area, Harris, etc.
America is going to go bankrupt at the rate it's coming up with dumb ideas.
Just watch what's happening to LA county's budget, $600,000,000. year (yes, Millions!) just for illegal immigrants welfare. Just $21.8 Billion for all of California last year.
So we borrow money we don't have from people that are our competitors (China) to act like big shots around the world, and that sugar (social programs) on the table does'nt help in the long run.
Well, after checking the Murphy USA site, I found that not all have ethanol in the gas. So i went to our newest Walmart and the pump said nothing about ethanol. I'm gonna swing by in a bit to see if they said anything like oxygenated or anything like that.
01-22-2011, 11:04 AM
#69
We don't really grow much sugar cane here. Wrong climate and the yield isn't as big per acre as corn.
What amuses me is that all the carbon-chasers out there seem to mostly overlook the massive carbon release that is happening in Brazil as they knock down the rain-forests to make ethanol.
What amuses me is that all the carbon-chasers out there seem to mostly overlook the massive carbon release that is happening in Brazil as they knock down the rain-forests to make ethanol.
my point is that if we can't do it, why can't we just let it go?
but since our big brothers in the white house think we are #1 in everything, we just have to do it, no matter what cost. so they came up with a much inferior solution (corn) just for the hell of it. and they forgot that unlike sugar cane, corn is actually edible everyday, u can't do that with sugar cane.
and yeah, those "go green" people usually just look at the good numbers and ignore all the side effects.
01-22-2011, 11:19 AM
#71
ethanol unfortunately easily breaks through fuel and oil. Mixes with it and stays in it. The only way to get it out is with water. Even a small layer of oil from premixing will still have ethanol in it. Thats one of the big problems boats are having. Two stroke boats wouldn't be affected if this was the case. But unfortunately its costing boat and aircraft owners tens of thousands of dollars. I know our cost seams measly compared to theres but its still unnecessary. They are having to change out components for aluminum fuel tanks, aluminum fuel lines, new fuel pumps(on aircraft that arent gravity feed like cessna 152s).
I used to drain 55gal THD's of a real sticky (like cobwebs) straight gear oil, and use them to fill with methanol; always clear methanol with slight oil coating on drum (no mixing or emulsion.
I always had to be careful when pumping oil based gas and oil or methanol( even one gallon of methanol to a truck full of gas acts like water).
I think there's a petroleum product of some sort that would coat the fuel system without guming up the system.
So model airplanes have been using methanol and nitromethane fuel for years, and the 2cycle oil is castor bean oil (might be too gummy for cars).
If they put ethanol in gas in some 3rd world countries, some people might pour water in some ethanol gas, pour off the water and ethanol mix, repeat and distill a few times, and you got corn licker.
You can't ruin gas by watering it, just pour water off the bottom, and suck gas off the top.
In fact widespread distilling might be the only way to get this ***** stopped. the guvment hates not being in control.
Last edited by REDRX3RX8; 01-22-2011 at 11:24 AM.
01-22-2011, 11:35 AM
#72
well, guess its too late
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011...-in-auto-fuel/
*sigh*
time for more **** up engines/cars/boats/whatever.
I think i am moving out of the state because Im sick of government/lobbyist forcing everything down my throat.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011...-in-auto-fuel/
*sigh*
time for more **** up engines/cars/boats/whatever.
I think i am moving out of the state because Im sick of government/lobbyist forcing everything down my throat.
01-22-2011, 12:41 PM
#74
There's no one to check for the mandated 10% ethanol decals, and I don't think anyone at Walmart will give a straight answer.
I buy Texaco next door, and I know its good because I've gotten 27.1mpg out of it before.
However, I'm about to buy a test kit if they mandate it at all stations here.
01-22-2011, 01:55 PM
#75