Fanman

You can wait for the 05' GTO and you will have 400 hp stock. Not to mention that Vortech has already made an SC for the 350 hp engine (getting to 500 hp). You are looking at getting to 525-550 hp on the new 05' GTO ! Honestly 300-400 lbs. of weight removal & still streetable car is impossible. Like a poster said above that would include removing most of the interior, numerous titanium & CF parts.

With the RX8 you could get a titanium exhaust and right there save 40 lbs. CF Hood (though the RX8 already has a very light aluminum hood). There were titanium/aluminum lugnuts/bolts that will take off some very heavy unsprung weight. Different seats will save you some weight. To get to 300 hp you are looking at some kind of FI (Greddy Turbo or Blitz SC), and it looks like you will have to get beefed up tranny (not sure about engine though).

rx8wannahave

Note to self...remember THAT! Is it too expensive? I think the RX8 will win out again and I'll wait on ECU, Exhaust, and SC upgrade when they become ready. I think from what everyone is posting that I was unrealistic in thinking I could take off 400 pounds from the GTO...without alot of $$$ and loss of it's street use.

Thanks for your thoughts on this...

Red Devil

Now, if you haven't already done so, go to another forum and ask the GTO crowd what they think about comparing the two...

rx8wannahave

I have not found a GTO forum yet....???

Howard

Before I bought my RX8 I had a Pontiac Bonneville SSEI Turbo. I really liked the car but the tranny went without warning at 45,000 miles. I considered the GTO and the new Northstar Bonneville which are nothing like each other of course. Then I saw the RX8. I would not call the GTO a sports car although it is certainly a performance car. Brock Yates once said all sports cars had to have two seats and be a convertible. I don't believe that but there is something about the look of the car that for me defines it as a sports car. I think size, weight, ground height, body height and lines all play a part. The RX8 is the first car with four doors that has the appearance of a sports car that I know of. I would be surprised if the GTO handles as well as the RX8. Handling is really what is the distinguishing factor for me. I am really surprised that cars like the EVO handle as well as they do. I still do not consider it to be a sports car. The terms used for some of the performance cars in the old days were Pony Car, Hot Rod, and Muscle Car etc. Muscle Car seems to fit the GTO best. In the long run I guess it is all personal opinion and taste

Tayninh

If you like to hear the roar of a V8 engine while the gas gage moves down than go for it. It will beat any RX right now off the line as its tires scream. Keep in mind some of what others have said. The car is not built in the US, Mexico I think, its still full of GM inside cheapness for interior and resale value is really bad. I certainly doubt the GTO will hold up for much past 100,000 miles on it even if it gets there without a major replacement in either the tranny or the engine. I am seeing in Colorado where the dealers have incentives to knock off $6,000 on these cars already and more is coming according to news reports because GM and Ford are taking a bath in sales of their vehicles. That should be a warning to you as well. So if you go for the GM big car sports car wannabe than its your money. I have had my share of "bad" cars and I still don't get the message. I still get ripped off no matter what the experience. I do see a troubling trend for Detroit cars however and the quality is just not there yet. Its improving somewhat but they still produce some pretty crappy cars and trucks. I would certainly by all means get some sort of extended warranty to cover the big expensive replacements later on but by no means buy one through a dealership. Shop around and you will beat most dealer's sales crap for warranties.

PoorCollegeKid

^ Agreed. A GTO is quite quick right off the dealer's lot (clicky to see the best stock GTO time for now) and can very easily be made even quicker than it already is. It's also a very nice, comfortable car; a true family sedan with a lot of speed. However, all of this comfort comes at the price of handling. The RX8, on the other hand, handles very, very well and has great feedback. It also has a unique engine and a better than average interior. However, it sacrifices speed for balance, and modifiability for uniqueness.

Both cars make compromises in order to deliver what their designers felt would be the optimal driving experience. Go out and drive these cars (as well as any others that you may be considering) before deciding on one or the other based on paper stats alone. You may find yourself surprised at the decision that you make after truly experiencing the car and making your own decision. Good luck on the search for a car, and keep us posted

NickG

The Australian built Pontiac GTO is essentially a 2 door version of our Aussie Holden Commodore sedan, whose current design has been around for about 7 years. Major elements of the rear suspension design can be traced right back to the late 1970's Opel Record, which formed the basis of the very first Commodore.

That fact that Holden have been able to squeeze so much out of this dated platform, with such little investment, is a major feat that has certainly not gone un-noticed at GM HQ. But at the end of the day, you are still buying a dated, heavy and relatively crude car that has simply been very well finessed.

There is really no comparison with the purity of the RX8 engineering. The RX8 has been designed from the ground up as a proper sports car, with low centre of gravity, proper weight distribution, weight saving techniques like the carbon fiber prop shaft, aluminium bonnet and doors, and sophisticated costly to manufacture suspension.

PoorCollegeKid

The GTO actually gets better gas mileage than the RX8, so if fuel efficiency is a big factor in your decision then the Goat would actually be a better way to go than the '8.

It's actually built in Australia. The current GTO is just a rebadged Holden Monaro with a revised front fascia and different exhaust, something that most people who have any amount of knowledge on the new GTO know because the mags and press releases made a big deal about this.

Personally, I really like the interior of the GTO. Everyone that I know that's gotten a chance to at least sit in one also seems to think that the GTO's interior is not only a huge leap forward from usual GM fare, but approaches the quality of luxury imports. Every review that I've read mentions the upscale feel and good quality of the GTO's interioir. Have you ever actually sat inside of one? The interior is much nicer than pictures make it look, something that most things have in common.

I actually laughed at this one. Do you have any idea how robust the LS1/LS2, M12/4L60E, M80 engine, tranny, rear end combo is? If anything, I'd worry about the interior rattling itself apart before I worried about the engine and drivetrain breaking up, even with 50-100hp more than stock. Every automaker produces a few lemons now and then, but engine/tranny failures are some of the least common problems on the new GTO or in any other GM in general.

That's actually a good thing, if you're looking to buy a new car. The less you pay, the better (that's the way I think, anyway).

According to JDPowers, GM has better initial build quality than all but Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, and BMW. Going by namplate rankings, GM has 2 of the top 10 spots and all GM brands except Hummer are rated higher than Mazda. It seems that most people in this forum think that Mazdas are fairly well made and are rather satisfied with the build quality of their cars, so I would think that a brand ranked higher than Mazda in this attribute would please them at least at much.

Have you actually done much research on the GTO? Most of the mistakes you made would have easily been corrected in a few minutes by a simple GIS, or by reading a review or two of the GTO. Please, try to do your homework next time you offer someone advice so that you know what you are talking about and don't lead them off in the wrong direction.

valpac

iTrader: (2)

the only benefit I see in the GTO is its mediocre looks. A really powerful car with a sleeper body style. It will keep the cops from looking sideways at ya. If you get one, dont make it look fast or you'll draw unnecessary attention to yourself.

However the looks of the RX-8 beg for a speeding ticket while sitting in a parking lot :p. Style isnt everything, its the only thing. Remember styling goes with you every minute of the ride, while power does not. Most of the time the GTO will look and behave like MILLIONS of other cars on the road.

Dropping that much weight on either car would be difficult. Glass, A/C, radio, speakers, spare tire, headliner, carpet, interior panels, sound deadening material, door hardware will all have to go and not sure all that would equal 400 lbs. You'd probably need a one-piece plastic (thin) front cap, door skins. Your ride would suck after all that. Not practical.

rx8wannahave

Maybe…a sporty car, it’s too heavy and handles to poorly to be a “OFFICIAL” sports car in my opinion. I think a REAL sports car has to do everything PERFORMANCE wise very well. More like a race car…than a dragster (while I can appreciate both)

Mr. Yates…you sir, are an ignoramus…I really don’t like convertibles…sorry

Well, the RX8 has slightly better city mpg but much less highway fuel economy. So, AVG should be higher than the RX8….but I wont start to talk about fuel economy again…they might ban me from the site. LOL

Poorcollegekid I have to agree with you regarding what my buddy Tayninh said about the GTO but not so ruff he was just telling me what he thought about it. LOL

I think the RX8 has once again defeated the latest and last challenger based on what I’ve heard from you guys.

Note: I think I’ve decided on my first, well not really the tires have to die first, upgrade to the RX8…well the first 2…

Lighter Rims
Lighter Flywheel

Those two should make a good difference and cut some weight also. If I can save 4 pounds on the flywheel and cut 5 pounds per rim that would save a total of 24 pounds off the car and make it faster too…for relatively cheap price after I would sell the stock flywheel and rims.


Note: I was told that if I ever got the RX8 to 300HP I would have to change the tranny because it could not take it. Now, a friend told me that what I would rally have to be changed was the clutch...not so much the tranny...who is right about this?

rx8wannahave

Yeah, I agree...I've left that dream behind...it's just not realistic. Now, the RX8 weight savings would only be 100-150 pounds and I think that might be possible without drastic changes. I think 100 is more realistic than the 150...but we will see...

Icemastr

If you are buying the GTO think you can drop 400lbs and it magically handles better don't. If you don't like the way it dives, buying and it and dropping weight will most likely not change how you feel about the way it drives. Also if this is going to be driven often dropping much more than a few pounds will quickly take away creature comforts you will not be happy about.

If you buy the base RX-8 it weighs in at 2850 lbs, no reason to try and put it on a diet. I find it doubtful you will lose 150lbs off an RX-8 without getting rid of stuff you might want like A/C, power steering, etc.

You can change out the whole exhaust and only save a few lbs, the stock exhaust isn't that heavy. Titanium will not save you even close to 40lbs in weight. Changing to lighter rims will save you maybe 10-15lbs or something.

Modifying the RX-8? Exhaust, intake, ECU, pulleys - +30HP at best. - $2500 220whp up from 180 (40 gain)if your lucky at 3000lbs = 13.6 power to weight

Modifying the GTO? Exhaust, air lid, LS6 cylinder heads, mild camshaft, retune with Ls1 edit $3000 420+ RWHP up from 300 (120 gain) 3800lbs - 9.0 power to weight.

No question the GTO will be an easier and cheaper car to get HP out of.

No question the RX-8 weighs less and handles better.

If your going to be driving this car every day decide which one you like the looks, interior, and driving of better then if all that outweighs either the power or the handling get that car.

Don't assume the RX-8 will ever be as cheap or easy to get power out of as the LS1 or that dropping the weight will be enoguh of an advantage to out weigh that.

Don't assume dropping weight off of the GTO will make it handle better or out weigh the RX-8's handling advantage.

Furby

i don't know if you've test driven them, but i've tried the pontiac. it seems like pontiacs have the worst steering/brake feel out of all the cars i've driven. that's enough to make me despise it. even with mods, that feel seems to stay abysmal at best.

rx8wannahave

OK, so even 100 pounds off the RX8 would be a little to hard I guess. I know it's light already but one of the best way to increase performance, I think, is to lose weight but if I can't even cut 100 pounds without taking away too much of the car then I'll forget the dream, while the lighter rims and flywheel are still a good investment I think...

Thanks for your thoughts!

I've test driven the RX8 and I loved it, without even pushing the car, so I'm just trying to compare it to as many cars out there so that once I make the final decision I will know that I made the best choice I could.

Thanks again for the help guys!

Fanman

The weight of stock exhaust is 17.6 kg (38.72 lbs.), believe me after lugging it around with the RB eahaust I can believe that. JIC claims their full titanium unit weighs a mere 4.1 kg (9 lbs.), saving almost 30 lbs. You can change to lighter rims, and like I stated depending on how much you are willing to spend titanium/aluminum lugnuts & bolts. That should give you a good 60 lbs. of weight reduction.

Other than that I agree with everything Icemastr said. If you want straight hp & stoplight to stoplight straightline speed the GTO is hard to beat. The RX8 doesn't have a lot of big hp adders (yet) but the handling, agility, etc are light years ahead of the GTO. Also do you realize the stock tires on the GTO are 225's. To get that kind've hp to the ground you will need to put much larger rubber on that car (necessitating new, larger rims & larger rubber).

dmp

For what it's worth, Going to lighter wheels will do a LOT more than, say, lighter exhaust. Look at this spreadsheet - you can enter variables to see how much 'effective' weight loss will happen by changing unsprung mass.

http://www.d-mphotos.com/movies/WeigthEqv.xls

rx8wannahave

Yeah, I heard lowering your unsprung weight really makes a diff...so I think that it would be a great upgrade.

Has anyone looked into or tested the Conzoomer ECU? I hear it gives from 20-40HP...but I have not seen any testing.

Fanman

Several people on this board have it. It is not exactly plug & play. Some people have plugged the unit in and gotten good results, others have not. I think because of the variations in our cars the best bet is if you get this unit to get the CanScan tool and customize it for your car. The most I have seen on dynos is around 16 to 20 whp for the stage 2 unit. The notion of getting 40 hp from a ECU re-tweak has so far proved optimistic. But 20 hp from this unit is not bad at all.

Tayninh

I can say I looked at a GTO at a race track and saw it close up but did not step inside and sit in it and was offered a ride in one at a dealership but I did not take it out. I used to own my own repair shop and we had lots and lots of GM cars and Fords. I know the reliability is not there nor is the resale value. I traded in a Pontiac Grand AM V6, the interior was the cheapest I have ever seen in a car and the carpet developed a heel hole in it in one month. I was the not the driver. I drove the car about 400 or so miles mixed driving. I know about the GM V6s but I know nothing about the LT1. I was taking a shot at all of GM as a whole and at Pontiacs in particular. I had business dealings with GM and let me say they were the worst I ever dealt with in how they handle customers. The other thing I thought odd about the GTO is the auto model has a gas guzzler tax of $1,000 I think and that's not fair. The RX does not have a gas guzzler tax on it. I had a Pontiac Grand Prix which I babied and treated and maintained very well and the tranny started to go at around 80,000 and the engine showed a little blue puffing. Have replaced several trannys in GM cars mostly and this was the Grand Prix and Buick Regals. Ford fairs not much better. After the experience with the 04 Grand AM and the way GM treated me on the phone pretty much convinced me to stay away from GM pretty much forever. Caddy's are another GM area that needs much quality improvement. Yes the RX has issues as well but so far I have not had any trouble with the car although it fairly new. Only in the next 4 years or so will we see how its going to hold up. I do think the rotary will hold up to 200,000 I hope. I know GM quality and I have seen it in the new Montes as well although the Monte isn't shown much on advertisements and one could say the same for the RX. The main reason why I never considered the GTO after all this discussion was to me it seemed like a heavier car with good HP but its not a sports car per say. Consumers Reports in their September 04 issue had this to say about the GTO. Highs: Acceleration, rear-seat comfort, V8 sound. Lows: Imprecise shifter, heavy clutch, braking, access, fuel econ and trunk space. (I guess Consumers will ding the RX for trunk space too)

The GTO does not have good agility and handling quality. Brakes are not up to performance. Bumps produce jiggly motions. In corners, the GTO feels like a large heavy car. The GTO can be more easily induced into sliding the rear wheels through a corner. The 350 hp 5.7 liter V8 has 17 mpg overall. The 6 speed tranny is stiff to shift and can easily hit reverse gear momentarily when shifting into 5th gear. Stopping distances were relatively long. The low beam lights lacks intensity. Front access is hindered by the sloping roofline; rear access, by the narrow space between the front seats and door pillar. Consumers said the interior quality is an example of GM's best. (my bad). Driving with kids. Limited access makes it awkward to get a child seat into or out of the rear seat. The LATCH anchors are awkward to access. Not my comments but from Consumers. The overall scores and ratings has trunk as Poor. The GTO has no stability control unlike the RX. The tires are BF Goodrich g-force T/A KDWS Size is 245/45ZR17 95 W. Price range is from $31,795 to $33,190. No reliablity records because its a new car model. I guess that will come out in their April 05 issue.

Howard

I thought about cutting some weight on the RX8 with mods then realized that the best place to cut about 50lbs would be off of me. LOL

beachdog

Unfortunately for Mazda, their product line includes two re-badged Fords, the Tribute and the B. When the low scores for those two models are factored out, the build quality ranks about on par with Honda.

rx8wannahave, maybe you say this somewhere else, but, what do you plan to do with the car? Is it transporation that's fun? Do you plan on going to the drag strip now and then or autox? If drag racing is any part of the equation then the answer should be pretty clear.

If you still have any doubts try to spend as much time as possible with the cars. No matter how you tweak your analysis, time behind the wheel will give you the answer.

Razz1

The damn mph light is consistently on and shinning in your face.
You can easily spin a 180 degree turn.
The front seats move so slow it takes 3minutes for it to move forward so you can access the rear seats.

It doesn't have traction control, it uses a mechanism that pushes back the gas pedal when the car thinks the tires are going to spin. This causes a heavy gas pedal feel.

The brakes suck. You have to push them near the end of the floor to stop, and this is on a new car!

I own a 94 Buick so I know how GM breaks are suppose to feel.

The looks suck. Don't expect to sell the car because you will be upside down for the entire loan. Poor resale value.

Plus all the other items mentioned previously.

Roaddemon

The GTO does not look like a high performance car. It's meant to look like a family coupe. It's a sleeper. That's what it's purpose is. It's posing as a mid size sedan to fool and kill unwitting challengers from light to light. Cheap thrills. It's also a GM and I've never had any luck with their high performance engines. They break alot. The 3800cc is GM's only reliable engine. Resale is also going to suck on this car. Go with the rx8. It's a whole different purpose and reward in driving experience. Nothing feels as good or is as much fun as the 8, in the 4 door/seat sedan class.

foxman

The 2005 looks better to me with the more aggressive hood and scoops but it is still hard to get real excited about the GTO the way they rushed it to the market. The HP does excite me though just not in this car.