SaskRX-8

After reading the Rotarynews article showing Mazda's time slips I started to have a real change of heart over this whole horsepower thing. I sort of decided maybe everyone including myself was taking it to seriously and I should not worry about it anymore. Ever since my car was broken in and I was able to take it through the gears to redline, I was pretty disappointed in it’s performance in the upper rpm range – particularly over 6500rpm. It always seemed to feel like the acceleration came to a halt – or leveled off - at this point and the car felt really weak. My previous car, an Integra Type R (which I traded in for the RX-8), had a very strong increase in acceleration after 6000rpm (VTEC changeover), so I thought at first maybe I was expecting too much and gave the RX-8 the benefit of the doubt because of the linearity and smoothness of it’s power delivery. The more I drove it however, the more I knew something was amiss with its power above 6500rpm.

So, tonight I arranged for some racing between myself in my RX-8, and my friend in his Integra Type R. He bought his Type R new at the same time I bought my mine and we have raced many times over the years. Our cars were exactly the same speed, so it would be a good judge for me to compare the speed to my RX-8. His car is stock except for an AEM Cold Air Intake, and AEM underdrive pulleys on the PS, and alternator. These mods might increase his power from 195 to maybe 208 engine hp. Car & Driver rated the Type R at 0-60 in 6.6s and 15.2@93mph in the ¼ for those who didn’t know. The car weighs about 2560lbs. With the mods his car might shave off 0.2 seconds from those times and maybe increase trap speed 1mph. Anyone who is familiar with this engine knows it is very weak under 6k rpms so it must be kept on the boil to produce decent times. Please keep this in mind.

Now its time to race. We decided to do a rolling start in 1st gear to eliminate any launching errors, and since his car is much weaker in the midrange than the 8, it was an advantage to me. As a note, the traction control and DSC were FULLY DISABLED on my car. I was revving at approx. 4500 when we both floored it. I was a little quicker to do so and as such jumped ahead a bit. The more powerful midrange of the 8 also allowed me to pull ahead some more and he was about at my rear quarter when his VTEC changeover occurred. At that point my car was also over 7k. He pulled ahead through 1st gear and was about bumper to bumper with me. I shifted to second as cleanly and quickly as could be done (the car squealed its tires shifting into 2nd – nice hard clutch bite) shifting at 9000rpm. He proceeded to leave me behind from then on through 2nd, 3rd, and finally he stopped pulling away when I was in 4th gear. There was about 4-5 car lengths between us at this point. We kept accelerating at full throttle until my speedo showed 225Kph (140Mph), and at NO POINT was I able to gain on him. Keep in mind through this race, I got the initial jump on him and he had to regain time and pass me!

Needless to say I was very frustrated at this point, so we raced again. And again. And again. Each time trying different gears, speeds, etc.. And each time the result was the same. He left me behind – even worse than the first race because the launches were more even. It really was no contest...

Now I know what some of you are thinking. There is driver skill involved, or this or that. Not an issue. We have the same experience, and driving the same car we are side my side. Always repeatable. This time it was the car. Plain and simple. Which leads me to believe a few things.:

1.) Some people’s cars on this forum are working as they should – making 238hp and pulling strongly past 6250rpm like they are supposed to. Some of our cars (mine) have a HUGE problem after this point and just plain fall on their faces. It can be felt when driving the car and it is CLEARLY VISIBLE to anyone who understands a dyno graph. There is no mystery to this fact and some of you out there (including Mazda) have to open your eyes and recognize this, as there is no way in hell my car could post a mid 14 second quarter mile!!! Neither can an RX-8 making 170-180rwhp.

2.) Judging by my racing tonight and given the weight differences between the two cars, my car is probably making a realistic 220 engine hp.

3.) If this high rpm problem is figured out the potential is there for the car to be acceptably fast – right now it is NOT.

Now some of you will disagree with this, probably because you have not yet pushed your car, or because yours runs fine. Some of us have cars that aren’t running like they should and that is why we have complaints. That is why we are worried and are contemplating the buyback. I love this car. Everything about it. I had it ordered over 5 months before I received it. But, it’s engine performance IS an issue for a $41,000CDN (+Taxes) vehicle, and that is the problem. I can live with the poor mileage and minor quibbles I have – but it SHOULD have 247hp. It has much less than that. Mine anyway…

Oh, before I forget, it was fairly cool out during the race (20C or 68F). My car had 1956Kms (1215miles) on the odo and the gas tank was pretty low (low fuel light was on). The A/C was obviously turned off… I have a Sunlight Silver GT 6sp with no sunroof.

I hope that was at least entertaining/informative for some of you.

Wing

That sucks! Maybe there is a problem with your car I don't know but my car kicks pretty big at 7200rpm.

aussie77

HOw many miles do both your cars have on them so far?

revhappy

That was one hell of a former car you had!!! I nearly bought a used ITR in the spring of 2002 (to hold me over during the wait for the RX8). If the ITR was available today, I may have very well bought it over the EVO. It is dead below 6,000 RPM, but its very fast above 6,000 RPM.

From a pure performace point of view, I think the ITR has the RX8 soundly beat. But it is noisy (little to no sound deadening material makes driving on a slow grooved road seem like you are scraping metal on the ground) and doesn't have many conveniences ( I think the radio and A/C were optional on the '97 models???).

From what I have read the ITR, is about the same (perhaps a bit faster) in a straight line vs. the RSX-S. The real difference is in the handling. The ITR Vs. the RX8 is a classic example of how a tuned car from the factory is better in most cases (from a pure performance view only) than a car with a theoretical preferable set-up that is softly tuned from the factory. Of course, if you are into tuning cars, you can extract a lot of performance out of the car with a better base, but it will cost a lot of $$$ in many cases.

Smoker

This is becoming more and more apparent that maybe some of the RX-8s ARE having HP problems above 7,000 RPM and some DO NOT.

I just wish that we can do comparison between an 8 where the owner feel the extra KICK over 7,000 RPM to one that seem sluggish at the upper range.

For example, If we can dyno SaskRX-8's car and Wing's car or compare the number of Km's on their car and the type of fuel they use maybe we can help all of those we have this upper range power issue.

Stu C

I agree that 2 cars, one that seems OK and one that appears to show the high RPM power drop off, should be compared on a dyno, or 2 drivers should get together and try an even handed race (somewhere safe!)

Also remember, that it has now been said in many threads that the car appears to suddenly get stronger in high rpms at about 2000 miles. No one has proved this yet, but if anyone can afford it, why not dyno a car well before 2000 miles and the same car after say 2100 miles?

Worth a shot.

Stu C

N1-R

I'm coming from the same situation as SaskRX-8, I used to own a 98' Integra Type R but it was totalled due to one careless driver and I've been carless since May. After a few weeks and months of thinking, I put a deposit on the RX-8 (when it still said it had 250hp in my cdn brochure). I thought I would be happy with this, a great handling, styling and sufficient power car for $39K cdn. I always wondered how the Type R would compare to the RX-8 and now I know, thanks SaskRX-8. Both are great handling cars but RX-8 weighs 500lbs more than the R and according to some dynoes, the 8 produced 170-180whp and the R produces 160-165whp, I'm sure the R would have an edge with the 500lb weight difference anyways as expected. It's really a shame the car isn't a 250hp rated car or else I wouldn't have to withdraw my deposit and go for the 350Z.

Quick_lude

One note, I thought Type-Rs consistently ran hight 14's in the quarter? The Prelude was rated at 15.1 by C/D.. there is NO WAY the Type-R is slower than the Prelude. Your friends R should probably pull a 14.6-7 in the 1/4 mile so keep that in mind when he pulled away from you.

That said I also agree that for whatever reason it looks like there are some people with "strong" engines that run clean and produce decent fuel economy while others have "dogs" with power dropping at high rpms, high fuel economy and dirty tail pipes from running overly rich.

Skyline Maniac

This might be alittle off topic, but remember the Best Motoring video a couple months back? The new ITR had no problem passing the RX-8 on the straights. Remember though, the Integra is perhaps the best FF of all time. I wouldn't mess around with one.

revhappy

The New ITR is significantly faster (in a straight-line) I believe. I agree, the old ITR was one of the best (if not the best) FWD sporty cars ever and is very quick on the track and the twisties.

N1-R

well said revhappy, it was truly one of the best FWD-best-bang-for-the-buck car if you dont' mind having no sunroof, a/c and a little engine "noise" called vtec. Other than that, you get decent looks, great all around performer and great price for the 1st gen ITR. Too bad they don't have the DC5-R (2nd gen ITR) here.

revhappy

I've noticed a few ITR owners gong to the S2000 and EVO. I think that they would be better fits if you want to change cars.

N1-R

Yeah I noticed that too about previous ITR owners. I wouldn't mind thinking about the EVO but it's not available in Canada yet so that's outta the question, I like the s2000 but it's price is a bit higher than the 350z and the look is 3 years old already. So i want a car that's a 2004 model with all new look within budget like the rx8 or the 350z.