PSkull's rant thread about MS6 vs RX8
 

To preface this, so I don’t get flamed (as badly), I do not advocate street racing. When I make reference to getting smoked, I mean in the sense that I know I will lose, so I don’t even bother. We all know the feeling; it’s that humbling when a car you know is faster than the 8 pulls up next to you at a light. That instant when you feel like all eyes are watching you, waiting for your response, but you don’t have one. If you own an 8, you know exactly how it feels.

This whole Mazda Speed 6 debacle kills me. I don’t understand what the heck Mazda is doing. They release the RX-8, the flag ship of their fleet, and try to sell it as the “complete sports car.” Their ploy is, despite its lack of power the car is good because it does everything else so well. So all of us run out and buy it, and think we made a great decision. We defend the car against it’s detractors by saying “Oh it’s a great car,” “It will out handle anything else in its price range,” “Who needs horsepower when you got the complete package,” “This car is great because it’s so fun to drive.”

Then 2 years later they release a car that spanks the 8 in all the places Mazda said didn’t matter. They give it the power the 8 should’ve had, and the performance parts to make it handle well enough so that no one is complaining about the cornering. I honestly feel shafted. I get dusted off by just about every comparable sports car on the market, now I’m going to get smoked by another Mazda? Come on. This is like the Vet getting lit up by the Cobalt. It doesn’t’ make any sense.

I don’t want to hear about how much better the 8 looks, or about the handling, or the practicality. The 6 is a good looking car, it has 4 real doors, and will have all wheel drive. It really doesn’t get any better than that. When it comes to driving on the street, I can’t think of a corning situation where the 6 couldn’t hang with an 8. Sure on a really twisty track, we might stand a chance, but I don’t drive on really twisty tracks. When you pull up next to a MS 6 at a light, and they look over at you, just imagine what their thinking. I know what I will be thinking, “I’m such a chump!”

Do you really think Mazda would breathe on the 3, the 6, AND the Miata, but leave their flagship out in the cold? I think not.

Be patient. Surely they have something up their sleeve for the 8 too.

I like your thinking! :D but seriously...we have Mazda NA secretly working on Supercharged and Turbocharged 8's on the west coast

Could a kit be worked into the picture? I'm thinking no BUT a NA MS edition...not out of the picture at all :D

/warning: wild, rapant, optimism :)

Sounds like the problem is in your head, not in the car.

Your 8 will never be the fastest thing around. Nor will the 6. If you want something that is going to be better than everyone else, why are you even buying Mazdas? At what point do you not think you're a chump? I don't consider the MS 6 a competitor of the RX-8 any more than the Nissan Maxima is.

So anyway, if you think the MS 6 is better because it's faster, or because it might be cheaper than the RX-8, why didn't you get a Neon SRT-4 :)

I hate to say it, but I think you bought the wrong car. If what you are worried about is getting "dusted" in drag races then you should get something different. I am fairly confident that if you took your car to a track you could at least keep up with these other sports cars provided equal drivers, and for sure beat the 6.

My argument has very little to do with other car brands, quite frankly I have learned to deal with the fact that the 8 is not a fast car. What bothers me is making the 6 faster than the 8? Modern car companies generally follow a formula in determining the performance, and pricing of their cars. Following that logic, you don’t build an economy car, and make it faster than your sports car. Now that the MS 6 will be the big kid on the block, who the heck is going to buy the 8? What does the 8 offer that the 6 doesn’t? Be honest if the MS 6 was out when you were buying your 8 which would you have purchased? The 6 could spell the end of the 8, making my car a failure, eliminating access to cheap aftermarket parts.

As for some of the other comments:
• There is nothing wrong with my head; I know a lot of 8 owners feel like I do. I fail to see the relationship between my disappointment and mental illness.
• Obviously I understand that my car will never be the fastest, but when you pay 31,000 for a sports car, you expect the acceleration to be proportional. There is no arguing the fact that the 8 is slow in proportion to similarly priced cars. Many will point out that 0-60 in 6 is not that bad, but that 6 second time is a pipe dream. In order to get your car moving that fast, you need to beat it into the ground. Try getting that 6 second time, with catching a whiff of your clutch going up in smoke.
• The SRT-4 is a Neon, I don’t care how much HP you put in it, that’s all it will ever be. I could never bring myself to purchase a Neon, so that car never crossed my mind. As for the performance, I can’t argue with that. It is a bit disturbing that they can get so much out of a Neon, but so little out of the 8.
• Why go with Mazda? It was in my price range, and after reading all the reviews of the 8, I thought it was the best decision. After owning the 8 for two months I find it hard to believe that so many critics loved this car. Aside from the handling, which in my opinion is useless on the streets, the car is far from extraordinary. In retrospect I think they were rewarding the 8 for being different, not for being better. In reality different is only better when it is associated with performance gains. Nothing about the 8’s differences give it any substantial performance gains (excluding the handling). The rear seat, and rear doors are a freaking joke. The rotary engine does rev high, but it really doesn’t deliver any associated performance improvements.

I know I sound like a bitter 8 owner, and quite frankly I am. This car has been nothing but a headache for me. To begin it’s not what I expected; I don’t think the car is fun to drive, nor is it efficient. Reliability has been the pits, I have spent several weekends getting it fixed. Flashes, Flooding Engines, and CEL’s. I have owned several cars, that cost far less than the 8, and none of them have given me so many issues. I just feel cheated. Throw in this whole MS 6 thing, and it just makes my blood boil.

hmm sounds liek someone should've test drove the car befor they signed the dotted line....sorry you don't like you car. I love it but to each his own i guess. I've been in owned and driven a lot of fast cars....and i love the 8 more. but that is just my opinion..which is of coarse only good to me:p

Isn't that pretty much what Mitsubishi did with the Evo, souped up their economy offering and made it eclipse the Eclipse in every way? It's pretty clear the 6 is next in line to get the Mazdaspeed treatment because it came out before the 8. Mazda is being tight-lipped but everyone knows a MS 8 is coming too.

Do you really think the 8 will be bypassed by shoppers just because the 6 is faster? Plenty of people will still buy the 8 just because some people don't want sedans. Or AWD. Or maybe they prefer the rotary over a turbo. There are plenty of reasons the two cars won't be cross-shopped.

And just as many of us are happy with the 8 because we knew what we were getting when we chose it.
You should also expect acceleration to be proportional to engine output. 5.9, 6 flat, 6.4.....those are all reasonable times for a tiny 238 HP engine.
That's surprising to read, since you really do sound like all you care about is speed and being the first away from a stoplight.
Ah. So do you always let other people's opinions make up your mind for you? You say you find their raves hard to believe, but if you 1) read closely and understood what you read, 2) test drove the car and 3) test drove the competition, maybe you'd see why they rave about the 8 and put it in 1st place time after time.

Sad predicament. I couldn't imagine being stuck with a car I didn't like. It's really too bad, because whether you want to believe it or not, the 8 is a fabulous car.

PKSkull77 you need to get rid of the 8 so you don't have penis envy of all the other cars out there. Why are you keeping the 8 anyway? I love mine and it hasn't been in the shop at all. Did you do any research when you bought the car?

Pkskull77 I won’t comment on your first post because I think you have been given valid responses. Mainly, don’t worry about the MS 6 since a MS 8 will come soon enough.

I think Mazda does not like it either that their RX8 is not as fast as it’s peers but truly believe (and most people who review the car and own the car agree) it’s a HELL of a sports car…PERIOD.

Don’t get me wrong, I think you have some valid complaints or might have expected more out of a RX8 but did you do any research? I have done, and most people on this website can testify to it, EXTENSIVE research into the RX8. If all I care about is 0-60 & ¼ mile times then the RX8 is not the best among it’s peers (G35, 350Z, GTO, 05 Mustang, S2000). If you look at the numbers the G35 & S2000 are only slightly faster. The 350Z is a little more, the 05 Mustang & GTO would take it easy…but those are BIG V8’s and compare their HP to the RX8:

G35 280HP (295-300HP in the 05)
S2000 240HP
350Z 280HP (or I think it’s 287…or was I thinking of the numbers given before the car was sold?)
05 Mustang 300HP
GTO 350HP

So, the range is about 42-112HP…so, it makes sense that those cars are faster. Only the S200 is comparable and I think it’s lighter. Before you say it…I also understand that most of them are heavier by about 350-700 pounds.

OK…get to the point, the MS 8 will END (at least I hope Mazda has the guts to do this) the little smirks or advantage those cars have. Or, an aftermarket SC/Turbo will do the job also. The car is fast enough for most people out there and you should not worry about everyone else…what is this…HIGH SCHOOL?

You own a hell of a sports car and I’m sorry for the problems, but I think you have sold your soul to the HP/Numbers devil and forgotten all the GREAT things about the car. If anything…sell it or trade it in but don’t live with a car you HATE.

Again, I agree that I wish the RX8 had another 50HP at least but a car is more than numbers. Also, don’t forget…in the LOOKS department…the RX8 KILLS THE COMPITION…without a problem!

Good luck and I hope you find a car that makes you happy because all CAR GUYS understand the love for cars we have and hope the best for someone in search of his LOVE AFFAIR!


Regarding the MS6...I think it will be a hell of a car also and I'm happy that Mazda had the guts to make it an EVEN better car.

I wish they would have used the V6 too but like jsh1120 said, it's about getting the MOST out of the car while maximizeing their profits.

Side note and I'll probably be banned for this...LOL, I wish the RX8 had the V6 in the 6 with about 250HP at 3.2L or so...that would have got more people to buy it or at least make alot of them relax about the car's engine.

But, it would not be a true RX anymore...mess with it's 50/50 (while I think it would not be impossible to make it get 50/50), and kill some of it's uniqueness...please forgive me everyone...don't hate...LOL

I belive this depends on what region you live in and your financial situation. CA and FL aside. Where many parts of the country get exposed to inclement weather AWD will be a factor vs. RWD. For me I was lucky enough to have paid off my 8 and don't have that note hangin over my head. I realized however that the 8 was not a car to drive in the snow. So I went ahead and test drove and loved the potential of the 2005 Legacy GT. It is a H4 turbocharged boxer engine that the MS6 will find as it's direct competition.

The bottom line will be the price of the MS6. If it is mucho dinero more than the 8 then people will stick with the 8 and/or possible look at the STI if it is in that price point. If it is less than the 8....then mazda may see thier numbers fall a bit on their flagship car (which will be very sad to see).

Guys...don't get so vaklempt over the mps 6. You do know the curb weight right? Its almost 600 lbs more then an rx8.

3,589 lbs is Mazda's offical curb weight for the touring package...(grand touring adds more stuff, and will weigh more).

Mazda is obviously positioning the MPS 6 as a competitior to something like a TL or G35 Sedan...its no STi or Evo killer by any means...nor is it competition to the rx8, which will be much faster through the corners due to its grealy less "heft."

Here's some other curb weights (all fluids + full tank of gas, no driver weight, base options) I dug up.

Mazda 6 MPS: 3,581
Mazda 6i MTX: 3,042
Mazda 6s MTX: 3,243
Evo MR: 3,085
STi: 3,260
Legacy GT: 3,300
SRT-4: 2,900
Rx8: 3,029
G35 Coupe: 3,512
350Z Eth: 3,197
Mustang GT: 3,450
Acura TL: 3,489
Acura TSX: 3,230
Saturn Redline: 2933
Chevy Cobalt: 2806
Chevy C6: 3179

Weights are from http://www.edmunds.com and are "base" models of each respective car, with all fluids, and a full tank of gas, with no driver. If MTX variants of the car were available, I selected them for the curb weight.

Here's the spec sheet for you guys
Mazda MPS 2006 Spec

Holy smokes! I'm not going to dissect your post but this baffled me. Are you kidding me? What's fun for you? I thought I had high standards...but the RX8 not fun to drive... wow..

Don't act so suprised
 

I never said the car wasn't fun for you to drive, I don't find it any fun. This is my peronsal opinion, and you can't attack that. If you lived in an area where you had tons of tight twists and turns, then the 8 might offer a more spirted ride. Or is you took the car to tracks, but I don't do these things. Driving my 8 is no more fun than driving my brothers Chevy Lumina. With the Lumina I also don't get people trying to race me.

An often overlooked issue with the 8 is the fact that it looks really fast. So any time your first in traffic you get people trying to race you. I don't even bother anymore, as most cars will either beat me, or make is so diffuclt that it's not worth the wear and tear on the 8.

Don't take it as a flame. You're right that it's a matter of opinion, but that's why I asked "what's fun for you?" Maybe a trip to the track once a month will brighten things up.

You sound like a pure speed guy. Did you consider the STI, EVO, or 350z?

PS-I don't know where you live but it's so boring here; flat, straight. I have to hunt for nice curvy roads and they last for all of 5 minutes.

Fun for me?
 

It's the whole package, which includes the ability to comfortably out-accelerate a jeep Cherokee. It’s not that I need to, in order to stroke my ego, but at the price we pay we should. The bottom line is that the RX-8 is marketed as a sports car, and modern sports cars need to get going quickly. The reality is that the 8 is slow and that is a serious mark against it. It’s really sad to think, but my girlfriend SUV (Suzuki XL-7) is just a tad slower than my sports car, that is just downright embarrassing.

You are right I should have gone with the EVO, STI, or 350z, problem is none of those dealers were willing to work with me on price. Unfortunately, I will live to regret my decision for the next 4 years or so.

does this mean you REALLY REALLY dislike the honda s2000? It's just a hair quicker than the rx-8 (mostly cause it's lighter), and costs quite a bit more. I guess that's not a sports car.... maybe it's a SUV..

Well with the Honda you eliminate the reilaility issues you get with the 8. The S2000 is also a soft top, which is a real benefit the 8 doesn't have. And as you said the S2000 is a better car. So no I don't hate it, but I would not purchase an S2000, having owned an 8.

I'd love to have a XL-7 which runs 14-second 1/4 miles, at mid 90s mph trap speeds. WOW... VERY Cool. What has she done to it? Turbo I guess?

The car is stock! When we run next to eachother she hangs really close. I ran into an 8 at a stop light the other dayand we were close. The guy was driving hard, I could tell by his engine sounds. The point isn't that the XL-7 is fast, it's that the 8 isn't. In order to get good time you have to be perfect through all gears, and be willing to beat your car silly. If both don't apply to you, something like an XL-7 will bet you. It should not be that way, I shold be able to comfortably pull on something like that, I can't. Thats pretty sad.

Don't take this personally, but if you are having problems passing an XL-7, maybe you should re-evaluate your driving skills. The XL-7 has 185 horsepower, to the 8's 238. It also outweighs the 8 by almost 800 pounds :eek: . I am not attacking you, but I'm thinking you are stretching the truth a bit.

wow. Then it seems like operator error. Even from a roll, an RX8 would destroy an XL7 - just look at the trap speeds of both cars:

XL-7 = ~80mph
RX8 = ~95mph

The only chance the XL7 has is if he caught the RX8 in 5th or 6th gear at 40? mph or so. Any decent driver - I mean any driver who wants to pass an XL7 should be able to do so with no drama whatsoever.

(shrug).

Whats the difference in torque? HP is only good once you get rolling, torque is what determines the winner of a short hole shot.

Soft top is subjective. My last car was a convertable, and I think it will be the last convertable I ever buy. Too much noise at high speeds.

I never said the S2000 was better, I only said it was slightly quicker, but came with a much larger price tag. So using your logic, the S2000 isn't a sports car, and is only a tad faster than your SUV.

My 25,000 lbs, 35' RV has more torque than you can shake a fist at, but it gets 0-60 in... one or two minutes. I agree with the others, you're just looking for excuses to beat on the RX-8 and throwing subjectivity and logic out the window.

If you don't like it, get rid of it like you've done your other 11 cars, it's no skin off my back that you dislike the car. I on the other hand love my RX-8 and have no issues with it.

I don't care how big of a hole-shot you need, a 17 second SUV does not beat a 14 second Sports car. :) Not of the sports car was 'trying'. Could happen, I guess, if the race were shorter than about 20 feet? Maybe?

186 pound feet of torque I believe.

maybe he has an automatic 8 an automatic 8 prolly would lose to an suv.

What does the 8 have?

Doubtful that'd happen too - at least not to a 17-second SUV such as the XL7. I bet I could power-brake an RX8 and out launch MOST SUVs, Mini-vans, etc. :)

Prolly out-launch most manual RX8s, for that matter.

2.1 second 60ft- times ;)

Even still, the weight difference is too huge to discount. The XL-7 weighs almost 3900 pounds to the 8's 3000 or so. It'sa no contest. Do you haul anvils in the back of your 8? Did you take your tires off and are running only on the rims? These are the only viable explanations I see for failing to outrun a big SUV like that.

I have not owned 11 cars just 4. All the previous ones were old as hell, and I drove them into the ground. Despite their age I still like most of the older ones more than my brand new 8. You're right I am beating up on the 8, I hate the car, and now I am stuck with it for 4 years. If I could afford to get rid of it I would.

That's irrelevant, but for giggles it's 159 pound feet. That number is really of no meaning. Are you forgetting that the 8 is a sports car, with more aggressive gearing? If you can't pass an XL-7 with the 8, would you be losing to a 2.5 RS in an STI? Or since you're so concerned about torque numbers, would you lose to a uhaul with the v10 turbo diesel probably running around 600 pound feet of so?

Pkskull, why don't you just admit that you're a mag racer and a grown man who is just now learning to drive a stick? You could have bought a Vette and you'd probably get smoked, since you don't know how to properly drive.

We all know that the 8 isn't the fastest thing out there, but those of us that can drive it properly at least get more out of it than you can.

I'll concede one area where the XL7 whoops up on RX8s.








Towing Capacity.

If you hate it so much, why not go sell it? Trade it in for an SRT-4 which has loads of torque. There are many ways to get rid of the car, if you don't like it, do something about it.

It just sounds like you bought the wrong car for what you want. Many people buying the 8 know it ain't gonna hang speedwise with many other sports cars/sports sedans. Instead they buy it for the handling (twisties is were it lives) and the unique styling. Where you made the mistake is not trading it in before the 2005's came out. Now you will be upside down on any trade and will get screwed unless you find a dealer to work with you. (The mazda incentives are not helping either). Or enjoy driving the car and know that your not gonna have a chance with a STI or EVO....(or even the Legacy GT... ;) ) and wait for someone to make a reliable FI system. Really...don't be so hung up about what you can and can't whip in a race.

I think it's fine for him to want more power, it's his opinion. He just needs to quit complaining and do something about it. Put it up for sale, put an ad in the classifieds or Autotrader.com, and use the money from that on a down payment for a new car. If you hate something so much, you'll be mad you kept it for 4 years, and you won't get much out of it fun-wise or money-wise. Sell your car!

Thats exactly my problem there is no way I can afford to give up all the money. I put down 15,000, so I would not be upside down, but I would lose a ton of value if I traded it. I've come to realize that I can't beat those cars, and for that matter, I can't beat anything with a good motor. It's just disheartning to own something you hate when I worked so hard to get it.

As for the XL-7, I have already concided that the RX-8 will beat it, but I am telling you that you will have to work really hard to do so. In order to beat that truck down you will have to flog the 8. Do that enough, and you need a new clutch. The problem isn't just that the 8 is slow, but also that you have to work so hard to get it moving. Shifting at 7,000 RPM's is terrible for the clutch and your drive train.

Two things...1.) If you have an MT shifting at 7000 is not a prob..don't worry about it. Your still 2000 rpm below redline. 2.) If you are not upside down than just trade the fucker in. Cars depreciate...fact of life. You won't get nearly as much towards a trade in 4 yrs from now than you would tomorrow. Regardless if you put $15,000 down. Really...you prob owe $8-9,000, the car blue book is around $24,000 (give or take). Realistically the dealer will give you 18-20k for the car due to the 05's being out and the incentives currently available thru Mazda. You will loose at best $5,000...probably less. Just dump it and get what ya want.

It's not the engine you have to worry about at 7,000 it's the clutch. If you f up the engine they will replace that, but not the clutch.

Brother - you need to invest your money in a driving school. I'm hoping you aren't insulted by that; no offense intended.

regardless of any of this peak torque doesnt matter at all. torque over the powerband does, (look at the area under the torque curve to give you an idea of potential)...you got more area under the curve you have more potential for whatever weight the car is. calculus always wins. i doubt the xl7 has as much area undner its curve.

btw i almost never get smoked off the line...a wrx is faster off the line, but im certainly not losing to big or small SUVs either.

incorrectly shifting is bad for a clutch at any rpm, if you shift well you can do less damage at 9500 rpm than someone who doesnt know what they are doing at 4000rpm. and btw if you're complaining about being slow racing the car why are you not using the entire potential of the car before you completely discount it. Its not a camry it has a 9500rpm fuel cut off because its built to handle it.

PkSkull77,after reading your post, I have come to a conclusion: you are one sad sad man! If 77 was the year you were born, that would make you 27. A bit too early to have a mid life crisis wouldn't it? Unless you only plan to live to see your 50s. Sad indeed. :(

ahh that explains it. If you're shifting at 3,000 rpm you're going to get smoked by the 12 year old on a BMX.

Don't worry about the clutch when you shift at 7k. The majority of clutch wear occurs when you accelerate from a dead stop. So unless you dumping the clutch at every light (which will not only burn the clutch out but tear up your gears) you'll be fine. Of all the WRX's , STI's and EVO's I have worked on, never have I heard of anyone complaining that they burnt their clutch out shifting at Xrpm. Just sell it now and get what ya can. You won't loose that much.

Honda did the same thing to me. I had a CL-S with 260HP. 1 year later they release the Accord Coupe with 240HP and 6 speed. To top it off it had voice activated everything. For 5 Grand less than the CL-S!!!

:mad:

Why would they give the car such a high redline and fuel cutoff if they wanted you to shift at 4000rpm in every gear? The car was built to handle it, so was the clutch. When you're going down the track do you wind it up to 9000 and take your foot off the gas until the tachometer says 4000 to shift? They gave this car such a high redline for a reason. The S2000 is the same, slightly lower redline lower, you are supposed to wind it all the way up and then shift. I think you might want to consider getting performance driving lessons, it would help a great deal. Don't take any of this as an insult, if you hate the car trade it in. I don't think you whining is getting you anywhere.