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-   -   PSkull's rant thread about MS6 vs RX8 (https://www.rx8club.com/general-automotive-49/pskulls-rant-thread-about-ms6-vs-rx8-46648/)

Doctor Bob 12-02-2004 09:01 AM


Originally Posted by Pkskull77
I find it extremely offensive that so many people degrade you for wanting a car that’s fast off the line. I don’t understand what’s so bad about that. Nor do I see the comparison between small dicks, and premature ejaculation. I can assure you I have a problem with these issues, but at the same time I do dislike the 8’s acceleration. With the way you get treated bring this topic up you would think I just advocated killing small children. If I have a problem with the acceleration you need to respect that, just as I respect your appreciation for the cars other features. If debates like this did not exist the club would have about 10 threads.


Coming into my purchase I was well aware of the 8’s shortcomings, but not fully informed on how extensive the acceleration issue was. I knew the car was low on ponies, but I believe that it’s weight, and gearing, propped it up. The issue for me isn’t 6 seconds, because that’s plenty fast, its how hard you have to beat it to get there. Dropping the clutch as 7,000 RPM’s is not acceptable, as you can only do that so many times before your buying a new clutch. In reality the 8 is somewhere around 7-7.5 seconds off the line. This is a fact that is not widely advertised in the magazines, shows, and articles describing the 8.

I feel the car is somewhat quick, most noticed once past 3rd gear. That said one does have to punish the drivetrain to get fast launches. This combined with the rare grinding of 2nd gear shift which seems to happen no matter how deliberate the shift is disconcerting. I have been driving stick shift care for over 37 years so I feel this grinding is inherent to the transmission or shift gate. If this were to happen with high rpm shift say bye or at least damage to your transmission. I agree the manner of abuse to get published times is unacceptable.

Bob

Pkskull77 12-02-2004 09:03 AM


Originally Posted by MazdaspeedFeras
it certainly isnt 7.5 seconds either (maybe with you its 7.5 seconds to 60 but you already admitted you dont drive over 7000 rpm anyway), peak torque is a nice sounding number, but the entire torque curve is what makes a car go...look up your physics and calculus and look at the area under the total torque curve and compare that to other cars and all of a sudden you may see differently, this car was designed to deliver torque over a large powerband, and guess what if you dont use it all you dont get it all. You don't have to dump a clutch to get maximum performance i find feathering from 4500 to 5000 gives me maximum road grip. but you dont really care right, you seem to enjoy self deprecation so keep at it...

I never said I don't drive over 7000, I just will not go from stopped dropping the clutch at that level. While I've got your attention, what do you mean by feather? When you accelerate using this technique do you get the burning smell?

RX8-TX 12-02-2004 09:11 AM


Originally Posted by truemagellen
Obviously you are obsessed with the Pre-Mature Ejaculative state only torque and torque is all that matters...so you can hop light to light, beating the little teenage snot that pulls up next to you

Was this comment necessary?

RX8-TX 12-02-2004 09:12 AM


Originally Posted by RX8-79
I said 'complete package' meaning it can stop and corner as well as it can accelerate, has luxury features/conveniences, and is fun to drive. The Legacy, in my book, lacks all those.

It's fast, but it can't handle as well as a regular 6, let alone the M/S. It's right at or over $30k for the GT, but doesn't even offer HID, NAV, one-touch up/dwn windows, or keyless start, all of which the M/S will have. Nice car to look at, but not for me.

Did you drive one? or are you going by magazine reviews? I think you should visit you local Subaru Dealer (too much NPR for me... :p ) and take a look at it...again. Because..."Subaru, driven by what's inside."

RX8-TX 12-02-2004 09:14 AM


Originally Posted by MyRx-8yourcar
First off the Legacy GT is not 30K. I don't know where you got that from but my 05 which I bought in August was 26K....cheaper than my 8. Secondly the stoping power and cornering of the Legacy is very good for a sport sedan and just by adding STI "Pink" springs improves it even moreso. So I think your comment about it not handling as well as the regular 6 is way off. I have driven both and can say that the 6 is no where near the car as the GT. Yes the GT is fast....and will still remain faster than the MS6 stock for stock.

Just have a question about your last sentence....how do you know?

Feras 12-02-2004 09:22 AM


Originally Posted by Pkskull77
I never said I don't drive over 7000, I just will not go from stopped dropping the clutch at that level. While I've got your attention, what do you mean by feather? When you accelerate using this technique do you get the burning smell?

nope no smell because although its a very fast technique it takes a measure of finesse that you cant have dumping a clutch (while im sure this wears it out fast too, its not noticeable). rev up to desired rpm, let clutch go slightly to engage, and increase pressure on the accelerator coincidentally with your lifting off the clutch pedal. (you'll get faster at this with practice but start slow) Should feel the car surge forward but you wont get the same amount of tire spin as a clutch dump, you will get a little bit, but will catch asphalt very quickly and when you do you're accelerating in the good power band.

the key is on not mashing the gas, but methodically pushing the gas harder as you lift your foot off the clutch.

Pkskull77 12-02-2004 09:40 AM

Do most of you guys who give the 8 a quick start from a stopped position, feel like your abusing the car? Anytime I take of quick, I honestly feel like something’s going to break? In my experience if it feels that way you should back off!

I have never really owned a sports car so I don't know if this is unusual but the RX-8 just feels really delicate when I drive it. Every time I mash it hard I worry about breaking it. Have any of the guys who owned something sport before the 8 experienced this in their former cars?

Feras 12-02-2004 09:49 AM


Originally Posted by Pkskull77
Do most of you guys who give the 8 a quick start from a stopped position, feel like your abusing the car? Anytime I take of quick, I honestly feel like something’s going to break? In my experience if it feels that way you should back off!

I have never really owned a sports car so I don't know if this is unusual but the RX-8 just feels really delicate when I drive it. Every time I mash it hard I worry about breaking it. Have any of the guys who owned something sport before the 8 experienced this in their former cars?

not at all sports cars are designed to go and go fast. i feel if im not driving the 8 fast im doing something wrong to it, it was designed to rev high and handle at maximum tolerances, remember the thing was partially designed by a race car driver.
ive driven a 240SX and on a few occassions a porsche 996 C4 and i can say both those cars never felt delicate. Same here.

IcemanVKO 12-02-2004 10:18 AM


Originally Posted by Pkskull77
I've seen this video before, and the car looks impressive, but something strange is afoot. I'm convinced that Mazda greased his pockets. Although the 8 is easier for a beginer to drive fast, a true proffesional driving both cars could easily put up a better time in the 350z. Then they get really silly and rank it with the M3. I don't know how scientific the laps were, but the RX-8 can't hold a candle to the M3.

This is one of the articles that convinced me to go with the RX-8 over the Zed. If I was going to defend the 8, this is the video I would use. I just don't buy their results.


The Trap speeds on the 350z and the Rx8 are very close, 92, and 95 mph I think. And as for how well he drove the 8 in the video, I think there is actually much room for improvement. He was all over the track, and lost the back end alot. I think if he really worked at it, he could get the time down. I am currently looking for the 350z video to compare.

AbusiveWombat 12-02-2004 10:54 AM


Originally Posted by IcemanVKO
The Trap speeds on the 350z and the Rx8 are very close, 92, and 95 mph I think.

Actually the 350z traps around 100 mph on average.

Pkskull - I know what you mean about the RX8 needing to be rung out to beat the average SUV. While the RX8 is certainly quicker at any speed, at low speeds most cars/trucks are fairly quick. Especially when they have a boat load of low end torque (full size trucks). It's at the high end that sports car really shine and easily pull away. And by high end I mean 60mph+.

Also, don't worry about your clutch with high rpm shifts. 90% of the wear and tear on a clutch is getting started. Up and down shifts hardly do a thing. The RX8 needs all 9000 rpms to feel quick, imposing a 7000 rpm limit would drastically reduce maximum acceleration.

Pkskull77 12-02-2004 11:08 AM


Originally Posted by AbusiveWombat
Actually the 350z traps around 100 mph on average.

Pkskull - I know what you mean about the RX8 needing to be rung out to beat the average SUV. While the RX8 is certainly quicker at any speed, at low speeds most cars/trucks are fairly quick. Especially when they have a boat load of low end torque (full size trucks). It's at the high end that sports car really shine and easily pull away. And by high end I mean 60mph+.

Also, don't worry about your clutch with high rpm shifts. 90% of the wear and tear on a clutch is getting started. Up and down shifts hardly do a thing. The RX8 needs all 9000 rpms to feel quick, imposing a 7000 rpm limit would drastically reduce maximum acceleration.


Thanks for paying attention to what I was saying, as soon as most people see the 8 and acceleration in the same sentence they start flaming. I do not impose a 7000 rpm limit, I just will not drop the clutch from a stop that high. I have taken the 8 all the way to the top.

BoxerGT2.5 12-02-2004 11:16 AM


Originally Posted by RX8-TX
Just have a question about your last sentence....how do you know?


The MS6 Numbers are out there... :)

Feras 12-02-2004 12:08 PM


Originally Posted by MyRx-8yourcar
The MS6 Numbers are out there... :)

and as we all know the numbers dont tell you anything about how the car drives or feels...just what professionals were able to wring out of what they were given.

ggreen29 12-02-2004 02:17 PM


Originally Posted by Pkskull77
This is especially difficult becuase I am a car fanatic, I love driving, and love sports cars.

Based on your statements so far I think all of these clauses are false. You may think they are true, but the reality is different. If you love driving and love sports cars you should love this car because it's a great sports car (or at least a really good 4 seat sports car-like car). Sports cars are about handling, something that almost never comes up in your complaints. For a sports car the turns are the thing (lateral acceleration). If cornering or suspensions don't interest you most then you shopped in the wrong car category.

Since almost all your whinings are about linear acceleration and suburban drag racing, you need a muscle car or a sporty/sports sedan. If most of your thinking involves straight lines then you shouldn't even be interested in sports cars, let alone love them.

Almost all of my commuting involves straight line driving, but I have a great time with my 8. There's about 10 minutes of suburban stop lights, but accelerating in a straight line to the next light holds no interest for me. Then it's about 20 minutes of freeway driving, which is pretty boring. But between those two is a moderately tight, two-lane 270º on-ramp that is great source of fun. I love the way the car's weight shifts on the turn as I adjust the gas pedal, the squeal of the tires on those days I'm feeling really spirited, bringing the car to the outside on the exit, the whine of the engine as it approaches the redline...and especially when there's a muscle car or sports sedan right behind me on the entrance (or better yet, in front of me with the other lane open), and by the time they get to the freeway I'm 200 yds downrange and they're just a dot in my mirror. That single turn makes the whole drive fun; the anticipation, the turn, and the remembering. It's what sports cars are all about.

I've been in the company car and driven by turns with elevation changes or bumps and wished that I had my 8 and how much fun it would be to take those turns. Someday I may even drive the hour it'll take just so I can take those turns a few times. If you don't think like that then you don't want a sports car.

And the MSP Mazda6 looks interesting (but heavy)...just to get it back on topic.

Feras 12-02-2004 02:23 PM


Originally Posted by ggreen29
Based on your statements so far I think all of these clauses are false. You may think they are true, but the reality is different. If you love driving and love sports cars you should love this car because it's a great sports car (or at least a really good 4 seat sports car-like car). Sports cars are about handling, something that almost never comes up in your complaints. For a sports car the turns are the thing (lateral acceleration). If cornering or suspensions don't interest you most then you shopped in the wrong car category.

Since almost all your whinings are about linear acceleration and suburban drag racing, you need a muscle car or a sporty/sports sedan. If most of your thinking involves straight lines then you shouldn't even be interested in sports cars, let alone love them.

Almost all of my commuting involves straight line driving, but I have a great time with my 8. There's about 10 minutes of suburban stop lights, but accelerating in a straight line to the next light holds no interest for me. Then it's about 20 minutes of freeway driving, which is pretty boring. But between those two is a moderately tight, two-lane 270º on-ramp that is great source of fun. I love the way the car's weight shifts on the turn as I adjust the gas pedal, the squeal of the tires on those days I'm feeling really spirited, bringing the car to the outside on the exit, the whine of the engine as it approaches the redline...and especially when there's a muscle car or sports sedan right behind me on the entrance (or better yet, in front of me with the other lane open), and by the time they get to the freeway I'm 200 yds downrange and they're just a dot in my mirror. That single turn makes the whole drive fun; the anticipation, the turn, and the remembering. It's what sports cars are all about.

I've been in the company car and driven by turns with elevation changes or bumps and wished that I had my 8 and how much fun it would be to take those turns. Someday I may even drive the hour it'll take just so I can take those turns a few times. If you don't think like that then you don't want a sports car.

And the MSP Mazda6 looks interesting (but heavy)...just to get it back on topic.

i love clover leafs, too bad im going too fast to see other peoples baffled reactions to a car passing them that fast on a clover leaf.

RX8-79 12-02-2004 03:11 PM


Originally Posted by MyRx-8yourcar
First off the Legacy GT is not 30K. I don't know where you got that from but my 05 which I bought in August was 26K....cheaper than my 8. Secondly the stoping power and cornering of the Legacy is very good for a sport sedan and just by adding STI "Pink" springs improves it even moreso. So I think your comment about it not handling as well as the regular 6 is way off. I have driven both and can say that the 6 is no where near the car as the GT. Yes the GT is fast....and will still remain faster than the MS6 stock for stock.

I meant GT Limited (which seems to be an appropriate moniker), since all the ones I've seen were $30k or above. I'm sure since you bought one you believe the Legacy handles and stops better than the 6, but it doesn't in my book, and test data backs up my opinion. C&D got .81g on the skidpad and 196ft from 70 mph for the LGT back in the Oct. 04. Not only is that worse than all the other cars tested, it's worse than the 6s.


Does it offer features such as HID and Nav....well...Subaru will be offering them on all 2005 models to be retrofit the first quarter of 05. The HID is nice...but navigation for my taste doesn't make or break the deal. If you don't know where the hell your going when you leave the house....stay home! The Legacy GT is not a Luxury sedan and has never been toughted at one. If you want your starbucks to stay toasty on the way to work than by a lexus.
Subaru has aspirations to move upmarket in the automotive chain, they've publicly said so. My point is, if they want to charge near-luxury car prices, justify it with luxury features.

RX8-79 12-02-2004 03:18 PM


Originally Posted by RX8-TX
Did you drive one? or are you going by magazine reviews? I think you should visit you local Subaru Dealer (too much NPR for me... :p ) and take a look at it...again. Because..."Subaru, driven by what's inside."

Yes, I've driven a Legacy, both the GT and the so-called Ltd. If they lowered the price about $4k respectively, it might feel like something special. But to me it's overpriced and underperforming (excluding acceleration).

BoxerGT2.5 12-02-2004 08:41 PM


Originally Posted by RX8-79
I meant GT Limited (which seems to be an appropriate moniker), since all the ones I've seen were $30k or above. I'm sure since you bought one you believe the Legacy handles and stops better than the 6, but it doesn't in my book, and test data backs up my opinion. C&D got .81g on the skidpad and 196ft from 70 mph for the LGT back in the Oct. 04. Not only is that worse than all the other cars tested, it's worse than the 6s.


Subaru has aspirations to move upmarket in the automotive chain, they've publicly said so. My point is, if they want to charge near-luxury car prices, justify it with luxury features.


Again...I don't know where your looking, but even the limited doesn't go above 30K; thats STI land. I didn't by one because I think the Legacy handles or stops better than the 6. I bought one because the of the performance of the engine....something the 6 doesn't offer (even the v6) and AWD. Yes, C&D rated the legacy 3rd overall behind the TSX and Volvo S40 and at the same time Road and Track rated it better than both....go figure.

Skid pad numbers and braking distances can vary a bit depending on what tires are on the car. I know the Stock Legacy's tires suck and were the first thing to get tossed off the car. Bottom line is performance wise the 6 compares nothing to the Legacy. The MS6 is close...but performance numbers still show it almost a full second slower than the GT in 0-60 and 1/4 miles times.

Like I said...I have no clue where your lookin, but you can get a 05 Legacy from 24K-28K at best. So no...you are not getting X included in the Legacy for 30K.

Rotarian_SC 12-02-2004 09:44 PM

All I can say is when I see the MS 8 I will laugh. I will think back to this guy. He goes and buys a MS 6 because it was released two years after the 8 and was faster (somehow I doubt it will be much faster if it is), but then Mazda releases another car in two more years that is faster than his MS6. I can already see this coming on the 6 boards ;).

RX8-79 12-02-2004 11:47 PM


Originally Posted by MyRx-8yourcar
Again...I don't know where your looking, but even the limited doesn't go above 30K; thats STI land.

Guess again. You've crosssed $30k if you buy an automatic Ltd. and can easily get there with a manual Ltd with a few accessories.


I didn't by one because I think the Legacy handles or stops better than the 6. I bought one because the of the performance of the engine....something the 6 doesn't offer (even the v6) and AWD.
Yeah, well, I'd never 'by' one because I think the Legacy handles and stops worse than the 6 and I'm NOT impressed by the engine or even the AWD. You know how it is, to each their own.


Yes, C&D rated the legacy 3rd overall behind the TSX and Volvo S40 and at the same time Road and Track rated it better than both....go figure.
I see why it lost so badly in the C&D comparo, but can't figure out how it won the other one. Go figure indeed.


Bottom line is performance wise the 6 compares nothing to the Legacy. The MS6 is close...but performance numbers still show it almost a full second slower than the GT in 0-60 and 1/4 miles times.
Substitute 'performance' for 'acceleration' next time, because that's the ONLY thing Legacy has on the 6. Official (keyword) M/S6 numbers have NOT been released (please spare us the 6.6 second thing since that's an estimate and a conservative one at that), but the Legacy will likely be faster to 60 since it's lighter than the M/S6. I'm certain it will continue to run rings around the Legacy in everything else though.


Like I said...I have no clue where your lookin, but you can get a 05 Legacy from 24K-28K at best. So no...you are not getting X included in the Legacy for 30K.
If it was $24k BEFORE discounts and negotiations, then it'll be a good deal. But to me, even $24k seems too much for so little.

crossbow 12-03-2004 07:44 AM


All I can say is when I see the MS 8 I will laugh. I will think back to this guy. He goes and buys a MS 6 because it was released two years after the 8 and was faster (somehow I doubt it will be much faster if it is), but then Mazda releases another car in two more years that is faster than his MS6. I can already see this coming on the 6 boards .
Now you see what I'm on the 8 board. I have a 6, disappointed in the MPS 6, the recent annoucement that the MPS 3 is FWD...so here I am, waiting for the MPS 8...or maybe something with a slightly lower # :).

I don't know why you guys are so angry at your cars. The 8 is an absolutely beautiful vehicle, thats INSANELY fast. It is going to utterly dominate B Stock in Autoxing this year...just watch and see.

What I seriously recommend (if you aren't happy with your car), is to attend some driving schools. If your luckily enough to be in an area with some road courses, look for when driver education programs are occuring.

Heres two in the VA/MD/DC area!
http://www.virclub.com
http://www.summitpoint-raceway.com/

You'll learn to drive better, learn to enjoy your car more, and enjoy passing vehicles which you'd think were "impossible" to pass. Even better...the person your passing has to wave you by, so it puts a nice sized grin on your face :).

If your looking for more specific training, check out...

http://solo.wdcr-scca.org/noviceSchool.php
The weekday autocrossing is excellent if you can get enough people to bring the cost down.

Also check out...
http://www.autocross.com/evolution/

Everyone can learn to be a better driver, regardless of make or model vehicle. Some insurance companies will even knock off some $$ if you show them your actively taking "driver education" courses.

I've attended the evo school myself, and will be going back for phase 2 before the season next year, as well as attending vir's new opening later in 05. I know I'm not a good driver, but I'm working to improve :).

DreRX8 12-03-2004 09:11 AM

In the 8s reliability defense--I have not had any issues with my RX8--also N/A rotaries have typically gone well over 200,000miles. The FD is an exception because Mazda used some weak components in the cooling area of the 13B--plus the extra stresses from the added boost.

IcemanVKO 12-03-2004 09:30 AM

Yes if I could forsee the future, and know that an RX8 would last 200k miles, I'd have a very tough time not buying one.

However, the highest millage I've seen on one is about 30k, so there really isn't much info on this area yet.

Ofcourse the same could be said about a Turbo Charged Direct Fuel Injection Gas Engine.

Where can I read more about the Turbo and Supercharger kits that might become available for the Rx8?

mysql101 12-03-2004 09:34 AM


Originally Posted by IcemanVKO
There there is the rareness. The MS6 will likely be much more rare, than the 8, but will likely not catch as many looks.

On the other hand, there are many many more 6's on the road than 8's, your MS6 will look like any other 6 with a body kit.

Genesis 12-03-2004 09:56 AM


Originally Posted by IcemanVKO
I am torn between a car that will be fast, handle well, with room to spare, and a slightly less practical, yet sexy eye catcher, with a unique yet quirky engine.

Uhhh....Ferrari 456? Would work for me :)

AbusiveWombat 12-03-2004 10:29 AM


Originally Posted by IcemanVKO
Back to topic ...

Either car would be hard to improve with after market add ons.

Turbo vs. NA...the MS6 will be very easy and cheap to add power. We'll likely see a chip upgrade within a year that will move the hp north of 300hp.


Originally Posted by IcemanVKO
It rarely snows here in Birmingham, AL, so I'll likely not need the AWD, but I am curious as to how that will improve my wet weather and cornering.

I've got an EVO and live in Austin where the worst we ever get is ice (for maybe a day). It's truely amazing the difference in traction between 2wd and AWD in wet conditions. With AWD you can accelerate as fast in wet as you can in dry. The only times I can get my tires to spin is from a stop with a 5000 rpm clutch drop, and even then it's barely a chirp.

AWD does handle better in wet as well but I don't really push it. I don't like the idea of wrecking my car or putting other people in danger just because I wanted to take a corner quickly in bad weather.

AWD also comes in handy when you need extreme acceleration from a stop. Situations like a left turn across a busy unprotected intersection. There's no need to worry about giving it too much gas and spining the wheels...just gas, clutch, and go. This is one of my favorite aspects of AWD.

On the downside, AWD can be very tough on a clutch or drivetrain. With big horsepower and unlimited traction, the stress of a quick start goes somewhere. For me, I never side step the clutch (as some other EVO owners do) but I do let the clutch out quick. This takes some of the shock off of the drivetrain but at the expense of a little clutch wear. When done properly there is very little clutch wear, when done improperly there is a lot of clutch wear. This is really the tricky side of AWD.

crossbow 12-03-2004 12:03 PM

I won't bet on fast "easy" MS6 upgrades. They've been working for 2+ years to crack the 6's ECU...and are just "now" getting to the point where we might be able to get some sort of flasher. (In another 6-12 months).

Some companies have mentioned they would like to buy one for the purpose of doing various performance parts for it, but companies like to say stuff like that :).

Of course being boosted means easier routes to power, especially considering the MPS uses the standard basic 6i exhaust lay out. With another 100 hp, the car will definitely be able to keep up with the competition! Just gotta watch out for the 94mm stroke of the engine...the rods are definitely the weakest part of the engine. Supposed to be using thick (different then standard 6i) rods, which should give it alot more elbow room to work with.

I just wish it didn't weigh 500lbs more then a standard 6i mtx :(.

RX8-79 12-03-2004 02:57 PM


Originally Posted by Rotarian_SC
All I can say is when I see the MS 8 I will laugh. I will think back to this guy. He goes and buys a MS 6 because it was released two years after the 8 and was faster (somehow I doubt it will be much faster if it is), but then Mazda releases another car in two more years that is faster than his MS6. I can already see this coming on the 6 boards ;).

I sure hope this wasn't directed at me. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm (strongly considering) buying the M/S6 because I like what I see, not because it's faster than my 8. I'm past teenage years and have no short dick issues, ergo speed is way down on my list of priorities.

Rotarian_SC 12-03-2004 03:18 PM


Originally Posted by RX8-79
I sure hope this wasn't directed at me. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm (strongly considering) buying the M/S6 because I like what I see, not because it's faster than my 8. I'm past teenage years and have no short dick issues, ergo speed is way down on my list of priorities.

No, I was referring to Pkskullz, but it holds true for anybody who would buy the MS6 after it came out because it was faster and they were upset Mazda made something faster than the RX8.

RX8-79 12-03-2004 03:26 PM

Gotcha. Wasn't sure, but that's kinda what I was thinking, since he seems a bit manic about having a fast car.

Pkskull77 12-03-2004 03:36 PM


Originally Posted by Rotarian_SC
No, I was referring to Pkskullz, but it holds true for anybody who would buy the MS6 after it came out because it was faster and they were upset Mazda made something faster than the RX8.

I can assure you that I have no intention of picking up the Mazda Speed 6. Aside from the number I don't like the car. I was only upset by the difference in HP, and acceleration performance. If I wanted a Sedan, I would go for the EVO or the STI.

Pkskull77 12-03-2004 03:41 PM


Originally Posted by RX8-79
Gotcha. Wasn't sure, but that's kinda what I was thinking, since he seems a bit manic about having a fast car.

I'm hardly manic about having a fast car, I'm simply confused about Mazda's reasoning for releasing a Sedan that's faster than their Sports Car. Just doesn't make sense to me.

I also don't understand why Mazda waits 2 years to realease a version of the car they could build right now. Instead of giving us the choice between a tame version (the current 8) and a Turbo Charged version (MS Speed) now, the want us to buy the faster one later on. Essentially, they make two sales for the price of one. Just silly.

RX8-79 12-03-2004 04:28 PM

Ah ok. So you're just "obsessed" instead. Gotcha.

canaryrx8 12-03-2004 06:07 PM

wow, so from what I've read this skull dude was "forced" to buy an RX8 and hates it? I just can't remember the last time I was "forced" to buy a 30,000 car, geez, must suck to be you :rolleyes: I just don't understand this thread and similar threads, the car is amazing, if it sucked so bad why hasn't it been toast in all the comparos that were done with it? I'm not sure where but I know I saw a long time ago where someone on this board had listed all the "victories" the 8 had against other cars like the 350z etc. in all the comparisons. It even surviced the Top Gear Guy, did you see his review on the Crossfire? The guy is completely brutal and even he liked the 8, and if you have watched any of the past episodes where he didn't like something he wasn't shy about it. I really feel bad for people such as pk, if a car such as this does not make you happy (even just a little) then you have problems the size of which I cannot even begin to comprehend. I hope for your sake that whatever it is that has soured you so heavily is remedied quickly as it can't be healthy to walk around that frickin' miserable. :confused:

Icemastr 12-03-2004 07:36 PM

Mazda has stated before they are about weight, not HP. They have never made the fastest cars on the block, just tried to make the lightest and best handling in every model. The 3rd gen RX-7 had less HP than all of its competitors, but weighed a lot less making it a much more enjoyable car to drive in my opinion.

Why did Mazda make the RX-8 naturally aspirated? Most important was probably because it is better for racing. It fits in better with the "total package" sports car you keep talking about.

You keep whining about how slow the RX-8 is and how hard to launch it is, well you can't expect a car with IRS and low torque to accelerate fast in the low RPMS. Higher torque at low RPMS means higher HP at those RPMs which means faster acceleration at those RPMs. The thing is these cars start dropping off torque around 4000-5000RPM maybe this is what you are used to driving. The RX-8 has pretty strong torque all the way up to 9000RPM. If you are making 140 lb ft of torque at 3000RPM thats 80HP, same at 5000RPM is 133HP, if your shifting at 7000RPM thats 186HP, and at 9000RPM thats 240HP.

HP is a measurement of power over time whereas torque is a measurement of force. If you are racing the RX-8 against say a car with say 240 torque and he is going from 3000RPM to 6000RPM thats 137HP at 3000RPM 228HP at 5000RPM and 274HP @ 6000RPM. So he is making from 137HP to 274HP from 3000-6000RPM. With the RX-8 3000RPM would be 80HP 5000RPM would be 133HP and 160HP at 6000RPM.

So if you are both staying around the same power range 3000-6000RPM the RX-8 is using between 80-160HP and the other car is using between 137HP and 274HP. Given both cars are around the same weight etc. which do you think will accelerate faster??

Now compare the RX-8 going from 6000RPM making 160HP to 7500RPM is 200HP and 240HP at 9000RPM. If you are accelerating at full throttle in the RX-8 and you shift around 9000RPM you should be around 5500-6000RPM in the next gear etc so you are always in your power band. Dont you think 160-240HP is quite a difference in acceleration than 80-160? This is why the RX-8 in naturally aspirated form will never be a fast car off the line unless you are launching it to where you are already at 4000 or 5000RPM , and why it seems liek you have to drive it hard to go fast, because your HP is in the higher RPMS.

zoom44 12-03-2004 07:47 PM


Originally Posted by Pkskull77
I'm hardly manic about having a fast car, I'm simply confused about Mazda's reasoning for releasing a Sedan that's faster than their Sports Car. Just doesn't make sense to me.

.

because you are talking about the regular version of car b versus the MSpeed version of car a. the MSpeed RX-8 will be better/faster/quicker than the MSpeed 6.



Originally Posted by Pkskull77
I also don't understand why Mazda waits 2 years to realease a version of the car they could build right now.

they cant build the MSpeed 8 right now. it is still in developement stage. they will sell it when it is ready.


Originally Posted by Pkskull77
Instead of giving us the choice between a tame version (the current 8) and a Turbo Charged version (MS Speed) now, the want us to buy the faster one later on. Essentially, they make two sales for the price of one. Just silly.

You're right it is EXTREMELY silly for a company that is in business to make a profit to get you to buy 2 of their products. i cant understand how that makes sense either :rolleyes:

bigblockbeater 12-03-2004 07:47 PM


Originally Posted by shigginsrx8
I hate to say it, but I think you bought the wrong car. If what you are worried about is getting "dusted" in drag races then you should get something different. I am fairly confident that if you took your car to a track you could at least keep up with these other sports cars provided equal drivers, and for sure beat the 6.

i agree, the 8 isn't a drag car (although i can keep it within a car length of a local 350z) take it to the track and watch how stable she is in the corners and how easily you can steer it with the throttle. and with perfect 50/50 weight and LSD, the car is a wonderful drifter (just watch the temp gauge if you do it)!

m477 12-03-2004 09:38 PM


Originally Posted by Pkskull77
I also don't understand why Mazda waits 2 years to realease a version of the car they could build right now. Instead of giving us the choice between a tame version (the current 8) and a Turbo Charged version (MS Speed) now, the want us to buy the faster one later on. Essentially, they make two sales for the price of one. Just silly.

Every car company on the planet does the same thing. Just look at the 3-series for example - first the E46 comes out. Then a little while later the convertible version comes out. Then the M3 comes out. Then they upgrade the 328 to the 330. Then they have a cosmetic update. Then the 330 "performance package" comes out... They can't release all the versions at once because they don't have the engineering resources, plus they get more PR this way and probably make more sales by always having the latest new thing to entice people with.

Pkskull77 12-04-2004 01:03 AM

All of you make valid points, and for the most part I agree, however I do have a couple points of contention:
  1. Please stop telling me that the car will only go fast if you keep the RPM’s high. I understand that the RPM’s must be kept high to keep the Rensis in it’s sweet spot. People keep reiterating this point, responding to my statement that “LAUNCHING THE CAR AT 7,000 RPM’s IS OUT OF THE QUESTION!” I never said that you couldn’t shift the car at the higher RPM’s; I do that all the time. I did say that shifting at higher RPM’s is more likely to wear your clutch.

  2. I understand Mazda is a business and as such they are entitled to make a profit, but I don’t have to like the fact that they are doing it at my expense. Furthermore, you can’t possibly believe that Mazda didn’t experiment with FI when they were designing the RX8! Mazda has know for quite some time exactly what system works best with the 8, and I would be willing to bet that there were working versions of the 8 running FI when the model we have was released. The investment Mazda put into the 8 was huge and as such they likely had designed and built several version of the car before deciding the one that best fit their product line. Can I prove any of what I said, no, but don't doubt it for a second.

  3. I, like a lot of people who own an RX-8 don’t really care about how the car drives on a track, that’s not where I drive it. I understand that the 8 handles its self well on a road course, and I find that impressive. However, I have also seen an 8 get eaten up on a track when it came out of the turns, and onto the straits (There’s a video of it floating around here somewhere). In any case, I can’t use most of the performance an 8 offers on the road. I can’t go around a turn at 50, and kick out the backend. Top End is useless, because I can’t drive 140 mph. I do however accelerate frequently, and the car is not good at that.

    I know what’s coming, dragging your car is just as illegal as any of the activities you mention above, and you’re right. However, there's a catch. If I end up first at a traffic light, and the person next to me wants to give it a quick run, I can do so without breaking any laws. If I don’t light up the wheels and stop accelerating when I hit the posted speed there’s not much a cop can do. In my previous examples there are no legal ways to perform them on the street. I would never do this in front of a cop, but this happens a million times a day without incident. If you’re the type who goes looking for races, and tries to win them at any cost, that’s a different story. Everyone on this forum has gone light to light, if you haven’t then there is something wrong with you.

  4. I knew the concept behind the 8 when I bought it, and I was well aware of the numbers that were associated with the car. But the experience on a test drive and through the words of an article never adequately described the cars lack of power. I have already admitted this was a mistake on my part, and I only brought it up in this thread to demonstrate the difference between the 8 and the MS6. I also realize that the 8 is a better sports car, but for the time being the MS6 is a faster car off the line, and I find this disturbing. I can wait a couple of years and buy an MS 8, or I can go aftermarket on mine when it comes out of warranty, but that doesn’t make me feel any better now. AND NO I CAN’T JUST RUN OUT AND BUY ANOTHER CAR, I’m stuck with the 8, and I will try and make the best of it. I'm just using this forum to vent my frustrations.

  5. Finally, allow me to comment on the “unwritten prohibition” of bashing the 8. I know this forum is primarily comprised of people who own the RX-8. I can understand wanting to keep the forum positive, the site wasn’t created to bash our car. This concept is something that I can respect. However, it is silly to flame someone who legitimately wants to talk about the 8’s problems. If I'm bashing please feel free to go point for point with me on the issue, but don’t turn it into a personal thing. This is all about the exchange of ideas, not about censorship in an effort to make the 8 seem like a flawless car.

Cygenic 12-04-2004 05:27 AM

Hey PK, after reading your posts I can understand where your fustration comes from. You probably bought the wrong car that doesnt suit your needs- and that sucks big time cos its such a big investment.

The 8 is a great car, but like every car it has its flaws. Instead of getting so upset, why not try to focus on the good points of the car and make full use of the next 4 years instead of getting so fustrated. Learn to drive a stick well in the meantime too, cos its a valuable skill u cld use for your future rides ;) cheer up

mysql101 12-04-2004 08:51 AM


Originally Posted by Pkskull77
If I end up first at a traffic light, and the person next to me wants to give it a quick run, I can do so without breaking any laws. If I don’t light up the wheels and stop accelerating when I hit the posted speed there’s not much a cop can do.

They can give you a ticket for anything. In your example, you would get a ticket for 'exhibition of speed'


Finally, allow me to comment on the “unwritten prohibition” of bashing the 8. I know this forum is primarily comprised of people who own the RX-8. I can understand wanting to keep the forum positive, the site wasn’t created to bash our car. This concept is something that I can respect. However, it is silly to flame someone who legitimately wants to talk about the 8’s problems.
I agree with you that real issues should be discussed, and if you browse the forum, you will see that we do discuss real issues. I also have to disagree with you and say that you don't have a legit complaint. The people who weren't sure about their purchase, have all leased. It is a first year car, and in your case, you didn't even know how to drive a manual. You made assumptions, based your decisions on what magazines said (Imagine if you bought a Crossfire ;) ), all of which were your fault, not someone elses.

Feras 12-04-2004 09:02 AM

even gingerly accelerating im faster than 90% of cars out there in general traffic, i have no idea why anyone considers this car slow(unless you compare it only with sports cars, although i havent heard many call a porsche boxter slow, and the 8 is faster than a boxter)...if you are talking about on the streets this car accelerates plenty well, and pskull you say you only drive on the streets and that you never race, so frankly the acceleration should be enough how much more do you need?

IcemanVKO 12-04-2004 09:13 AM

PK, I can't say that I don't understand where you are comming from. And having not yet purchased my RX8, I appreciate your comments as it does weight on my decision.

I too want to have a car that can move, having that punch, both impresses your passengers and makes you feel good about your purchase, even if you don't use it to race others.



The Mazda 6 sells for 22-23 fully loaded. I just spoke with the salesman, and the MS6 will be 26-27. So basically you get a 6 + Turbo, and Suspension for 5 or 6 grand more.

It will cost a tad more than the 8 I plan to buy.

Now, if those were the only choices, the 8 would still in my book be even with the MS6, because of how much better it handles, and how much better it looks.

Yet there is another option. Put a Turbo in your RX8, and problem solved. The Turbo's for the RX8 will be out before the MS6. It will cost about 4-5k, and give you alot more power than the MS6. An RX8 with 300 BHP, will pretty much own anything stock on the road, except maybe a Viper, and it would give a Viper a heck of a run for its money.


Now you say Hey WAIT! I already bought a Car, why would I spend another 5k on it? Well if Mazda, had put the Turbo in the car, it would have cost another 4-5k, and wouldn't have near the 300BHP that the aftermarket turbos are targetting.

Pkskull77 12-04-2004 09:41 AM


Originally Posted by JasonHamilton
They can give you a ticket for anything. In your example, you would get a ticket for ' exhibition of speed'

They could do that, but it's unlikely. Any ticket that punishes acceleration is a difficult win in court, absent any behavior that shocks the conscience; you can usually get the charges dropped. In a situation like this the cop has to testify to his subjective observations on excessive acceleration, and it’s easy to cross examine, and elicit favorable testimony. Just to avoid the frustration most prosecutors don’t bother. On the other hand speeding is something easy to testify to, “My radar guns said 95.” I would say 99% of the people who get nailed for street racing do so because they break the posted speed limit, or they do something like burnout.

Pkskull77 12-04-2004 09:48 AM


Originally Posted by IcemanVKO
PK, I can't say that I don't understand where you are comming from. And having not yet purchased my RX8, I appreciate your comments as it does weight on my decision.

I too want to have a car that can move, having that punch, both impresses your passengers and makes you feel good about your purchase, even if you don't use it to race others.



The Mazda 6 sells for 22-23 fully loaded. I just spoke with the salesman, and the MS6 will be 26-27. So basically you get a 6 + Turbo, and Suspension for 5 or 6 grand more.

It will cost a tad more than the 8 I plan to buy.

Now, if those were the only choices, the 8 would still in my book be even with the MS6, because of how much better it handles, and how much better it looks.

Yet there is another option. Put a Turbo in your RX8, and problem solved. The Turbo's for the RX8 will be out before the MS6. It will cost about 4-5k, and give you alot more power than the MS6. An RX8 with 300 BHP, will pretty much own anything stock on the road, except maybe a Viper, and it would give a Viper a heck of a run for its money.


Now you say Hey WAIT! I already bought a Car, why would I spend another 5k on it? Well if Mazda, had put the Turbo in the car, it would have cost another 4-5k, and wouldn't have near the 300BHP that the aftermarket turbos are targetting.


Very valid points, but I'm not interested in modding my car until the warranty is up. If you FI that car every bit of the powertrain warranty is gone. Thats especially troubling considering the unproven track record of the Rensis. It would be though to pay for a new engine when the problem was something that was happening to all 8's, and being replaced under the warranty. Also, to me adding an aftermarket turbo kit cheapens the thrill. It makes me feel like a ricer.

However, if you can afford to blow your engine, and have the money for a Turbo kit, then go for it. You sure would suprise a ton of knowlegable drivers when you blew by their car. Good luck with your purchase. Just do yourself a favor and test drive the car for a long time. Try flogging it, and if the salesman says anything don't be afraid to tell him to chill out.

Pkskull77 12-04-2004 09:52 AM


Originally Posted by MazdaspeedFeras
even gingerly accelerating im faster than 90% of cars out there in general traffic, i have no idea why anyone considers this car slow(unless you compare it only with sports cars, although i havent heard many call a porsche boxter slow, and the 8 is faster than a boxter)...if you are talking about on the streets this car accelerates plenty well, and pskull you say you only drive on the streets and that you never race, so frankly the acceleration should be enough how much more do you need?

I need enough to hold my own against a sports car. Soccer moms are not the ones who want to go, it's the people who know the 8 is slow, and have cars which can pull on it. Most people think the 8 is fast, and don't bother in their econo boxes. So yes the 8 is faster than most cars out there, but not faster than the ones that will actually want to go for a run. You bring up a good point with the Boxter, can't argue, but I wouldn't buy one if I was in the market today.

T.T. 12-04-2004 06:55 PM

According to your profile, you are not 16 years old. So why do you care so much about driving in a straight line? The curves are where it's at. The reason why you are not enjoying your car is because you are not trying to. Keep practicing your shift technique and learn how to corner. Maybe someday you'll beat those SUVs you are having trouble with. :rolleyes:

Pkskull77 12-06-2004 06:01 PM

Matter of Taste
 

Originally Posted by T.T.
According to your profile, you are not 16 years old. So why do you care so much about driving in a straight line? The curves are where it's at. The reason why you are not enjoying your car is because you are not trying to. Keep practicing your shift technique and learn how to corner. Maybe someday you'll beat those SUVs you are having trouble with. :rolleyes:

Wanting to go fast in a strait line is not a sighn of of immaturity, just something some people like to do from time to time. Once again I’m not asking for Viper speed, I just don’t want to get smoked by every sports car on the road. I appreciate the handling, but it’s not everything. In my opinion Mazda just did not strike a good balance between power, and handling. The sad part is that it would not have been that difficult for them to add a couple more ponies. The car would be that much better.

JmurphRx8 12-06-2004 06:46 PM


Originally Posted by Pkskull77
My argument has very little to do with other car brands, quite frankly I have learned to deal with the fact that the 8 is not a fast car. What bothers me is making the 6 faster than the 8? Modern car companies generally follow a formula in determining the performance, and pricing of their cars. Following that logic, you don’t build an economy car, and make it faster than your sports car. Now that the MS 6 will be the big kid on the block, who the heck is going to buy the 8? What does the 8 offer that the 6 doesn’t? Be honest if the MS 6 was out when you were buying your 8 which would you have purchased? The 6 could spell the end of the 8, making my car a failure, eliminating access to cheap aftermarket parts.

As for some of the other comments:
• There is nothing wrong with my head; I know a lot of 8 owners feel like I do. I fail to see the relationship between my disappointment and mental illness.
• Obviously I understand that my car will never be the fastest, but when you pay 31,000 for a sports car, you expect the acceleration to be proportional. There is no arguing the fact that the 8 is slow in proportion to similarly priced cars. Many will point out that 0-60 in 6 is not that bad, but that 6 second time is a pipe dream. In order to get your car moving that fast, you need to beat it into the ground. Try getting that 6 second time, with catching a whiff of your clutch going up in smoke.
• The SRT-4 is a Neon, I don’t care how much HP you put in it, that’s all it will ever be. I could never bring myself to purchase a Neon, so that car never crossed my mind. As for the performance, I can’t argue with that. It is a bit disturbing that they can get so much out of a Neon, but so little out of the 8.
• Why go with Mazda? It was in my price range, and after reading all the reviews of the 8, I thought it was the best decision. After owning the 8 for two months I find it hard to believe that so many critics loved this car. Aside from the handling, which in my opinion is useless on the streets, the car is far from extraordinary. In retrospect I think they were rewarding the 8 for being different, not for being better. In reality different is only better when it is associated with performance gains. Nothing about the 8’s differences give it any substantial performance gains (excluding the handling). The rear seat, and rear doors are a freaking joke. The rotary engine does rev high, but it really doesn’t deliver any associated performance improvements.

I know I sound like a bitter 8 owner, and quite frankly I am. This car has been nothing but a headache for me. To begin it’s not what I expected; I don’t think the car is fun to drive, nor is it efficient. Reliability has been the pits, I have spent several weekends getting it fixed. Flashes, Flooding Engines, and CEL’s. I have owned several cars, that cost far less than the 8, and none of them have given me so many issues. I just feel cheated. Throw in this whole MS 6 thing, and it just makes my blood boil.


~You do bring up some good points, but your complaining to the wrong people...If you feel like you've been cheated so bad, then why don't you try telling mazda all this and see what they say. But you can't honestly believe that mazda is gonna just tune the protege, miata ,6 , and 3 and not their "flagship" car...just be patient, we all know it's comeing...the question is when?

PS. are they planning to mazdaspeed the 3 next? or the 8? I'll be really pissed off if the 3 is next, we'll be waiting 5 years before the ms8 is out in that case.

Pkskull77 12-06-2004 07:38 PM


PS. are they planning to mazdaspeed the 3 next? or the 8? I'll be really pissed off if the 3 is next, we'll be waiting 5 years before the ms8 is out in that case.
THE 3! There is a thread in here about it.


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