Steiner

That's what I'm thinking. For most people who could afford a $70k, the Skyline and GT-R names mean nothing. The 350Z has nme recognition. Maybe Nissan has decided to release the new GT-R as some sort of Z. Stranger things have happened.

crossbow

The no frills edition with 300 bhp is around 26k. Once you start upgrading things the price gets rediculous.

And ya, the MS3 is slated for june/july/august release next year. Detuned MPS 6 engine, FWD/LSD.

Btw it doesn't have a hood scoop. They had to cut a hole in the hood to fit the TMIC in, and then covered it up with a box. The box gives you an idea of how much larger the hood will have to be. (It might have a cowl)

Ajax

The car we saw actually had a scoop. It wasnt as big as the box (although that hood was still sitting in the racing beat shop), but it did have a small scoop with an inlet.

Y&Y

m477

Evidence?

dmorales

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2307177

Hows this? I think it is exactly what we want...except the price...
________
How to use the extreme q vaporizer

280RX-8

Good point on the Z-name. but rich people concerned about Brand-Image are not going to want a Nissan. That's why we have Infiniti, Acura, and Lexus in the States. Most of the literature I've seen has pointed to the new Skyline being released as an Infiniti. But as you said, stranger things have happened. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Japan8

Use your head. Obviously it's not exactly the same engine just without turbos. It's the same BASE engine... block, and probably heads and crank. The pistons are higher compression and the improvements in the heads with stronger internals help to push it the extra 50hp.

m477

Again. That makes no sense.

Developing a high boost turbo vs a high revving NA engines are two separate development paths.

For example, turbo engines such as the rb26dett tend to favor closed deck engines as it is easier for the thicker block to handle the added pressure of boost.

In order to make more power in NA engines however (without increasing displacement) you need to rev the engine higher, which creates more heat. So the problem here is keeping the engine cool, so an open deck works better. A good example of this type of engine is the F20C in the S2000.

Japan8

Doesn't seem to be the case with GM's LS V8's nor Ford's MOD V8's. Explain that one.

The DOHC 4.6 in the last Cobra Mustang made 320hp stock. Change the pulley and add a free flowing exhaust and the power just jumped. Swap the roots blower for a Kenne Bell or Whipple and WOW. You'll TRY to say that it was because the engine was setup from the factory for boost. What about the huge number of boosted 302 and 351 V8's? How about the large number of boosted 4.6 SOHC V8's? How about the S/C systems from Saleen and Kenne Bell for the 3 valve 4.6 V8? The Saleen kit is very conservative, completely keeps your factory warranty, 50 state legal (CARB approved) and adds 100hp to a STOCK engine.

You aren't making sense. Maybe if you are talking about a little 2.0 four-banger there is much more work needed to handle the amount of boost you'll have to push to make good horsepower (Evo, STi). However even then... I still don't believe that the manufacturer even considers the engine to be entirely different... only a derrivative.

Look at past Skylines. The sedans used the RB20DE engine. The coupe ran the RB26DET and the GT-R was the RB26DETT. "RB" denotes the engine SERIES. The displacement and FI/non-FI differs, but they are all similar... come from the same base.

Your introduction of the S2000 engine has little relation to this topic. That engine is special for Honda... designed from the ground up and used only for the S2000. Hell.. un-Honda-like it actually spins the right way. Further, that engine is the perfect example of Honda's philosophy... high revving small displacement engines will little low-end torque. We are talking about Nissan... who actually builds larger displacement engines and believes in forced induction. More specifically we are talking about the VQ engine which is NOT a high revving engine with all the "real" power up top like the F20C. The Z's VQ engine has repeatedly been said to make great low-end and mid-range power, but gets a bit anemic up top. Maybe the 2006 model with it's changes has improved this some, but that engine likely hasn't made such a drastic change in personality and hasn't suddenly gained a 8k redline.

Japan8

ALSO...

Who the hell was talking about high boost turbos and high revving NA engines? Who knows what the factory boost level will be on the GTR? Who ever said that the VQ series engine was high revving?

Duh! That is EXACTLY what I said in the beginning you goober. One rumor is that Nissan is going to up the displacement. The engine is at about 300hp now. Raising the displacement to 3.6/3.7 (I forget which now) isn't much, but it will make a difference... definitely not just 3-5hp. And we are only talking about finding an additional 30hp or so. That displacement increase with some additional refinements of the engine (which we have been seeing as the hp rise on the current displacement engine) will likely come close to that mark.

IF the GTR engine is a TT V6 (there are some rumors now about Nissan also working on the V8 from the Q)... it'll be something like VQ37DETT... VQ BASED.

brillo

None of Nissan's V8's get anywhere near 400bhp, therefore, I believe if they didn shoehorn a V8 in the Z, it would like be 325-330bhp, but witha better torque spread than the current V6. That engine would add some serious weight to the car, when it was all said and done, maybe another 150-200llb. it would be faster around town with better pull of the line, but I doubt it would be much faster than 0-60 in ~5 sec, its rolling starts however would be much better than the current model.

A lighter weight car with a turbo/sc Renesis could easily keep up with that.

PoorCollegeKid

You have to remember that Nissan doesn't have any V8 vehicles other than luxury cars and trucks, and those types of vehicles tend to be powered by torquier versions of a given engine than a sports car would. If Nissan put a V8 in the Z, it would no doubt be more highly tuned than it would be if it was in a 4000lb+ luxo-cruiser, even if this comes at the expense of low end torque. Nissan has already does this with the VQ. In the 2002/2003 Maximas, the VQ put out 255hp and 24Xftlbs, while in the Z released around that time it put out 287hp and 274ftlbs with what was essentially a modified version of the same engine. I believe that even the cams were the same in the two versions of the VQ.

The VK in the M45 has an output of 335hp and 340ftlbs, with torque peak coming at a relatively low 4000rpm. It seems that they have a fair amount of potential to play with simply by shifting the powerband upwards for a more sporty powerband. If the engine can be made to hold 330ftlbs out to 6500rpm, the engine will put out 408hp. If it can hold 300ftlbs out to 7000rpm, the engine will put out almost exactly 400hp. This seems like attainable numbers from this engine as far as performance is concerned. What I don't know is whether this engine will pass emissions at a higher state of tune, which is probably what will be the limiting factor in the power Nissan can get out of their 4.5L V8.

Personally, I would rather see a VQ-turbo than a V8 in the Z. The VQ is already a large, heavy engine; putting a DOHC V8 under the hood isn't going to help the Z lose any of its flub. Maybe they could use a detuned version of the GTR engine in order to keep the costs of both cars down.

Avalonstar

My call.. if it's going to be over say... $45 - $50K, then it's going to be an Infiniti branded car.

280RX-8

^^Egg-zactly.

toca

all mazda has to do is make a rx8 wuth a 13brew tt with 300hp which would be easy if mazda want to do it

m477

For the FI version, Ford switched to a CAST IRON BLOCK, as well as forged pistons and rods, all different from the GT. If changing every major engine component isn't "setup from the factory for boost," then what is?

The s2000 is very relevant to this topic as it is a perfect example to illustrate the differences between the F20C and the turbo engines you just mentioned. The hp numbers are somewhat comparable, but the Evo engine is a closed deck cast iron block with low compression, whereas the F20C is completely the opposite with an open deck aluminum block with much higher compression.

Even 3.7L is only about 5% more displacement than 3.5L, so we're only talking about ~315hp -- a far cry from the "EASY 350hp" that you originally claimed. So it's still gonna have to rev higher to make those power levels, which is exactly what I have been saying all along.

Japan8

I didn't say it wasn't. I said that you'd try to use that as an arguement.

Cast iron blocks are cheaper. If it was just a matter of stronger then that Ford GT would have a cast iron block too.

Forged piston and rods aren't a big deal. People use them on high horsepower NA motors and motors pushing a lot of nitro too.

The pistons and rods in the "speciality" cars inbetween the GT and the Cobra (like the Bullet and specifically the Mach 1) are different than the GT too even though they don't have FI.

Your point is?

Those two engines are the perfect examples of the different philosophies of how to get power out of a four-banger. They aren't examples of displacement vs FI and the difference of the internals between the two. This is what we are talking about.

The MAGAZINE said "easy 350hp" not me. I was quoting what they said. I claimed nothing.

You were never arguing that the VQ could make near that power if it also revs higher. You were trying to argue that the VQ could NOT AT ALL make that power with only a bump to 3.7L and also that the next GTR engine couldn't be used as a base.

Fact.
The "current" VQ engine has been improved for more horsepower more than once since the 350Z came out.

Fact.
The redline has gone up as well with some of the higher horsepower models (anniversary edition).

Fact.
Just from briefly skimming a Z forum has shown that Z owners can get 20-30hp NA. So that's going from 230-245rwhp stock (287hp crank) to 260-275rwhp (high end) or roughly 304 - 322hp crank.

What can be concluded... well if with NA aftermarket mods you can get up to 322hp (maybe more... maybe less... I only skimmed through) on the 3.5L VQ engine, it woudl certainly seem possible that Nissan could squeeze out 330-350hp from the engine with an increase in displacement (not only!). Add in the development being done on the TT VQ for the GTR... you might not be able to use the same pistons, but that doesn't mean you can't make use of the better flowing heads and cams... you're seriously going to try to tell me that it's not possible?

And yes they can raise the redline too in this effort... I never said that it was out of the question.

Japan8

You stated:
Part of my answer...
So? Explain it please. I'm obviously totally wrong. I have not a clue what I'm talking about. So draw me a picture. Why does the Ford GT have an all aluminum engine, but the GT500 has a cast iron block (yes I know it's actually from the trucks but it does still use the Ford GT's heads)? They both use the same aluminum heads. Because cast iron is stronger? Uh... the Ford GT puts out more horsepower. Come on.... I'm waiting...

I don't know why I even missed this in the beginning. Don't you know... the engine in the SVT Cobra and the engine in the GT are not comparable as part of this discussion. They are "similar" as they are both "MOD" engines, but nothing after that. First S/C Cobra engine is DOHC vs SOHC in the GT (which is how they have always been). The Cobra had an all aluminum engine which the Mach 1 engine is based on (with some tuning such as cams) whereas the GT's engine was always a cast iron block with aluminum heads.

All the major engine component have been changed? The forged-steel crankshaft is a carryover from the previous Cobra. The forged con rods and pistons are new, but the 4 valve aluminum heads are a carryover.

First, I never claimed it was true, a sure thing or whatever. I quoted a magazine. I have argued in favor of lending it credibility because it seems plausible. I didn't miss the whole point. You have seemed to choose to add your own interpretation to statements as you please. The engines in the 2002 SVT Cobra and 2003 SVT Cobra are the same to the manufacturer, just one is with FI and one is without. Of course they aren't going to just take the NA engine as is and strap on a S/C (or T/C). For Christ's sake.... get your head out of your a**. Just because I didn't explicitly state it from the beginning doesn't mean that I didn't understand that. It is OBVIOUS that upgrades are going to have to be made. My point was that some of those upgrades can also yeild improvements on the NA engine. Example... better flowing heads are needed to support FI. Those same heads could be used in a later NA version of the engine that has other refinements or things learned during development may yeild other improvements for the NA engine. According to Kenne Bell the 3 valve SOHC 4.6L V8 has better flowing heads that the S/C SVT Cobra (4 valve DOHC 4.6L V8).

And again... you still haven't shown how it isn't possible. AGAIN, as I said... no one was talking about *only* upping the displacement nor about taking the turbo engine AS IS without turbos. You said anything about if the NA aftermarket can break 300hp on this engine NA, that it is reasonable to believe that Nissan can get 330-350hp (not rwhp... flywheel) between further refinements (which have already incresed horsepower), increase in displacement and anything gained from the GTR engine development.

Post #40
Where did I state it being my opinion?

MikeW

VQ40 or stretch that bitch to 4.5 liters 100mm bore x 95.5mm
350 from 4 liters sounds nice
400hp from 4.5 sounds like a corvette hunter.

Anyway get better transmissions, time for a 6 speed automatic. Or how about an 8 speed double clutch transmission.

Japan8

Does Nissan have a SMG/DSG transmission? I don't believe so. I know they do have a CVT transmission...

There has been word recently (Dec issue) in JDM mags about the V8 mentioned in this thread. However it wasn't in conjunction with the Z. It was being speculated by the magazines that it may be another choice for the GTR.

I'd be likely to think no. Toyota is rumored to be working on a NA V8 Supra that isn't a supercar... rather Mustang/GTO price range competition. It'd make sense for Nissan to go with some thing similar in the rumor Silvia replacement... although it's very un-Silvia-like...

Ajax

Guys.. This thread isn't your personal bbq. Take the flames to PMs or to another board.

This thread has SOME useful information left so I'm cleaning up the crap.

Consider yourselves warned.