delhi

It's called the vendor butt dynos. Posts like these reminds me when I read about K&N filters offering 20hp at the Clubsi forums of yore.

if you have read my initial post, you would know why. I am not saying that MSP3 is a POS or anything. It is quite a nice car actually. But I am done with souped up econocar. Hence I have an RX8 as you can see, hp is not everything for me unlike the majority of north americans. Also I am trying to educate noobs to not discount Subaru's engineering especially the fact that global aftermarket support for the WRX is probably larger than all of Mazda's aftermarket support let alone Mazda3's.

RPIRX-8

yes, dyno proven. take a look at Mazdas247.com and search for a user named nutari. He is running CAI, CPE FMIC, XEDE, and CPE Exhaust.

A CAI on the MS3 provides significant improvement since the stock airbox is unbelievably restrictive. The box can't pass enough air to feed the turbo past around 5800 rpm. The air has to change directions twice at 90 degree angles plus its pulling hot air. I could list a number of other reasons it provides major benefit.

The stock exhaust has a CAT + 2 resonators/mufflers integrated into the piping. CPE has eliminated one of those (i believe) and the gains are impressive. Remember, this is the same engine that has been in the Speed6 for 2+ years and hte CX-7 for the same time.

Point of all this is that for a car that has been in the US for less than a year, the aftermarket is unbelievable. The aftermarket for the RX-8 within the first year of being in the US was horrendous. Maybe Subaru's have a bigger global aftermarket, but the critical parts of the MS3 for power have been taken care of.

playdoh43

you should just link us to hes profile or post that describe the gains

RPIRX-8

contrary to popular belief, other forums have search functionality too

delhi

The Speed6's turbo powerplant is known to suffers boost cut off at hot temperatures thanks to bad TMIC design. There used to be a running joke that Speed6 owners should carry bags of dry ice to be put on the TMIC at every traffic light stops. I doubt you want that to be a benchmark for performance.
Power gains for one individual is hardly a standard to be used. BTW, that's not 3 small mods. That individual has 4 major mods. Converting TMIC to FMIC requires major piping rework.

SayNoToPistons

iTrader: (8)

Betelgeuse

Pass whatever you're smoking over here. Have you been to nasaic and seen the countless issues with subies? You name it, they have it. Sorry but for longevity, the complexity of an AWD drivetrain alone is a disadvantage - more things to break and more expensive to upkeep. And it's known the 5-speed glass tranny in the WRX can't hold up to much abuse. I almost bought a WRX wagon and held off after visiting the forums. Too many drivetrain related issues and I drive hard so that was a going to be a bad combo. Drive them like grandma and they last, but that can apply to any car.


So far, 17k of hard driving on my ms3 an not a single issue. Aside from the motor mount recall there hasn't been anything major. The car is built like a brick and I trust it to get me to where I'm going and back way way more than a WRX.

Betelgeuse

10-20 whp has already been proven which just the CAI on several dynos. I have one installed and the difference is very noticable. The stock airbox is very restrictive and the car runs pig rich stock so the CAI and positioning of the maf is essentially a 'cheap' tune.

Ike

What you just said adds up to the same thing as people going around and saying "the rotary is a ticking time bomb and will only last 60k miles". Saying a WRX can't take much abuse is complete an utter nonsense much like the statement above. When it comes to reliability I'll take a Subaru over a Mazda every day of the week, but I wouldn't not consider a Mazda for reliability reasons.

Nick R

:agreed: the new Mitsu RA is going to be a very comparable car to the new WRX. Personally I'll take a Mitsu over a Subie any day. The last RA was a great sleeper but by no means WRX level. I'm looking forward to the two cars being on par and the reviews that will ensue.

Betelgeuse

Well that's you, I'll take a Mazda any day over many other manufacturers including Subaru. I've owned 3 and they've never let me down. Except for the STI and maybe the legacy GT, Subaru has nothing I care for. And those would be my last choices.

delhi

New WRX should no longer be considered the performance machine that it once were... sadly. Subaru wants it appeal to the mass market. Should've just called it Impreza GT like in Japan.

VikingDJ

Phew, lay off the pipe yourself man. You're going by just a car forum as your defense? Look at reliability ratings. My god when I go on the Speed 3 forum, there's people having problems, and there's not that many owners on there yet at all. There's far more WRXs out there then Speed 3s. At least 12-15 times more of them, so of course you're gonna see problems. A DUH!!!!!!!!!!!! Facts are facts. Subaru is superior to Mazda in reliability ratings. In bone stock form, used as a normal car eith normal driving, I'd take Subaru over Mazda any day, and that's because the car will hold up better with less repairs, and bettre reliability. Of course the WRX is so easily moddable, so you can easily make it unreliable.

Lets go by if lets say grandma took a Speed 3 to the store and Bingo every day, Aunt Bethel took the WRX. After 10 years, which car hold up better? WAA LA!!!! That's not saying Mazda isn't reliable. We roll the dice on any car, so hopefully you'll luck out and drive your Speed 3 200k miles without problems. It's possible, but overall Subaru is better, DEAL WITH IT, just as I have as a Mazda owner. It's called BEING IMPARTIAL AND OBJECTIVE. You might wanna learn it sometime.

My STI went 28k miles of hard driving, and never saw the dealership ONCE. I'd bet the BANK that I 'd have hit 100k without anything but basic maintanence. I'm unsure about this Mazda. Countless recalls and TSBS, and small problems occuring already at 10k miles. My RX8, well that ewas a nightmare. However, that's what a warranty is for, and I won't be keeping it past warranty, so all is good.

Rosko350z

Betelgeuse and VikingDJ, check out this URL

http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/consumerreports.pdf

Going from this, Mazda and Subaru seem almost even, as general brands ... in 2 of the charts anyway.

I didn't read the article. I only looked at the chart.

Betelgeuse

Just a car forum? no several car forums. And the repeated pattern of drivetrain related failures posted regarding the WRXs are mind boggling. Granted quite a few are modded, but when I read of bone stock cars having issues that's when I got concerned. No it doesn't mean that every car will have a problem, but it does point out a point of possible failure.


Anyway, if Subaru is so much more reliable, why did you buy a Mazda? It's not like the Subarus aren't affordable, they are, so what's the deal? Guys like you fascinate me. Over on the speed 3 forums we've got a few of them - always comparing the speed 3 to another make/model they had that they loved.

You bash the car you drive, over exaggerate the problems (countless tsbs/ recalls my ***!!)but constantly give praise to another make/model. I'm all for being impartial (there are countless other brands out there I won't mind driving - hell I do like the STI, EVO, is250) but I'll never take my hard earned money and plunk it down on a make I have little faith in or don't particularly like - that seems nuts to me.

I base my decisions/likes/preferences on my own experience, the experience of others and what I read on the forums online. What I gather there means more to me than some reliability rating. I always laugh at people who put a lot of faith in ratings especially the ones that put out arbitrary numbers like JD Power and the like. It's no secret they can be easily skewed and misleading as the actual problems aren't disclosed, just a number. So a tranny problem and a cosmetic problem for example, are treated as one and the same. With that said, I'll stick with what I like and trust.

Your aunt bethel and grandma scenario is unrealistic but to answer your question, both cars should more than likely hold up just fine over the long term with normal driving although I will still lean to the speed 3. The real question though, is which will hold up over the long term in a more realistic scenario (i.e driven hard on a daily basis)? You already know my answer to that.

Betelgeuse

Thanks for posting this, but like I said in my above post, these types of ratings are meaningless without knowing the models and the actual problems. This also proves you can't even put faith in these numbers as Mazda is way down to the bottom on one (jd power) and way up here.

LabDad

So what do you drive again? VikingDJ has owned a RX-8 and currently has a MS6 (same motor as the MS3) in addition to previously owning some Subys. Your info comes from what you've read on various car forums.

Hmm. First hand experience versus "it's written on the internet".


BTW, I've owned a WRX that I modified an beat on. Never had it in for any warranty work. My RX-8 had less than 2,000 miles on it when it needed to go in for a new visor. Check this thread too

https://www.rx8club.com/general-automotive-49/2006-jd-power-long-term-dependability-survey-110236/

edit: Also regarding your second paragraph. Reliability is just one factor when considering a car. If that was the only thing that mattered we'd all be driving the same boring cars. I chose an RX-8 over an STi because it is a pure driving experience. I accept the fact that it is less powerful and will be slower on all but the twistiest tracks, get poorer gas milage and need more repairs than if I had gotten the Suby. That's fine with me.

Ike

Yes, going to a car forum and judging a car by some posts from some random dudes is a much better idea!

Fact is any AWD car with a good amount of horsepower and owners that don't know how to drive them is going to have some sort of drivetrain issue. There will always be a weakest link and there will always be a handful of idiots that find it, sometimes with regularity. I knew/know dozens of WRX owners that all drive their cars hard, go to the strip, launch them regularly, autox, and do HPDEs, not a single one of them has had tranny issues. However, the tranny in the WRX is probably the weak link for the average moron that thinks they're Petr Solberg yet has very little experience driving an AWD turbo car or even just a manual.

Betelgeuse

I seriously doubt the subie owners with broken trannies are just making it up.

I've owned several Mazdas, a Honda, and several domestics. Never owned a Subie, so I have to rely on the experience of others - the forums and people l know. I don't mindlessly believe everything I read but at the same time, I have no reason to doubt the many who've complained about the WRX transmissions.

The ms3 and ms6 share the engine and tranny but they're tuned differently and have different ECUs. Also one is AWD and other is not so there differences in the drivetrain as well. So the problems in one don't necessarily apply to the other.


I'm not here to defend the RX-8 or the ms6 for that matter, just pointing out some problems I've seen posted regarding the WRX. Anyway a visor is nothing to make a big deal about. And I don't doubt you regarding your WRX, like I said, it's not like they all will have issues. I'm sure many don't, but the fact remains, trannies are failing and continue to. I've already seen at least 2 posts with '07s with stripped gears.


A reliable car doesn't have to be boring, and I never said reliability was the only thing that matters, however it matters a lot to many people when purchasing and it's a topic that comes up quite often when comparing cars. I read that last part you wrote regarding your reasons for getting the rx8 over the STI and had to laugh. I'm speechless, don't know how to respond to that. Like I said, your type fascinate me.

dragula53

Complaining about the reliability of another car on an rx-8 forum, I find entertaining.

Regardless, I have no real "loyalty" whatsoever to any brand. I judge the cars I have owned on their individual merits.

I've owned 2 Nissan sports cars. (S13 Silvia K's, 300ZX Twin Turbo), a 2004 RX-8, a 2003 Subaru WRX, and a 2006 Subaru STI.

The RX-8 was the worst. The 300ZX's cooling system was a pain in the ***, but being 12 years old, I couldn't complain too hard, it was inexpensive to fix.

The Silvia was rock solid (some ignition issues at one point, but also an inexpensive easy fix), both subarus were rock solid. (0 problems in 3 years of ownership between the 2)

I would like to see all of the "forum" (I spend a lot of time on cobb's forum and NASIOC, and see nothing even remotely resembling what I see here). posts where people are destroying their transmissions on their subarus, and then compare the quantity to the number of people flooding, needing new engines, and having miscellaneous problems with their rx-8.

Betelgeuse

haha, where do you think the data for those surveys come from? Yeah, they come from random people. The difference is, no one knows what the numbers represent unlike a forum. I guess we should just brush aside the issues posted here then, after all these are just all 'random' people posting here right?


It took a whole paragraph, but it sounds like you're admitting the WRX has a weak tranny.

Betelgeuse

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240471

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=55

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=64

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=8

http://www.clubwrx.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=38

http://www.wrxtuners.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=69

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=21

dragula53

Lots of people abusing their modified cars.

Hardly a rash of transmissions spontaneously self destructing.

But touche'. I've done some hard launches, and can see the potential for transmission damage, I suppose. This is why the EVO has the 4k? rpm limit for launches.

They say the same thing about launching the RX-8 at 8k rpms though.

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

those guys over at the subie forum are freakin' hilarious.

Betelgeuse

Yeah launching at high rpms is bad esp. for an AWD car, but it's 3rd gear that's going out on the newer rexes. The launch shouldn't affect that gear as much since 1st and 2nd would take the brunt of the force. And quite a few people stated they weren't launching the car when the tranny grenaded. Anyway, besides the rear diff issue and the few that have complained about grinding in third, I have yet to hear of someone grenading their ms6 tranny.