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Mazda RX-VISION Concepts

Old 09-22-2015, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by SayNoToPistons View Post
Who knows, the next Mazda RWD coupe may be a shared chassis with Toyota since they're in an awkward relationship.
NO! The Toyota chassis sucks compared to the Mazda one of 12 years ago. Toyota should adopt any new chassis Mazda comes up with.

In any case, if this is true, and I'm not holding my breath, it looks like I will need a bigger garage. I'll probably wait for the Series 2, though.
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Old 09-22-2015, 08:24 AM
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And will you eat your words if and when Mazda introduces the next RX model?

Countless folks before you have signaled and predicted the rotary's doom as a viable powerplant, only to eat their words later as they were thrilled at the latest Mazda rotary introduction. My money is on Mazda and not on you !!!
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Old 09-22-2015, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by NotAPreppie View Post
just steal it from the Mustang (Mustang V6 and CX-9 V6 are both Ford Cylone V6 engines). Just update the interior and exterior a bit, crash them into a few concrete walls and start the MSRP at $30k.

Do you realize that the Ford V6 has an even higher failure rate than the Renesis? It's a horrible engine. So that would be a bad move. Plus the tooling for the RX-8 chassis is gone. There would be a lot of cost to rebuild that. Cheaper to use the ND chassis production line, which we already know they are thinking about due to the comments about reusing the chassis with a scalable RWD platform.

Originally Posted by NotAPreppie View Post
The fact of the matter is that if Mazda continue to do well, they will do so DESPITE the rotary as primary mechanical motive power not because of it.
This is true, and something I am thankful for. I am thankful that Mazda continues to pursue what they love, and not always what makes the best money. Yeah, it doesn't make sense to any pencil pusher or market analyst or market shareholder. But it makes a hell of a lot of sense to anyone that knows the value in pursuing what you love, despite the costs. Mazda corporate board still has that, and I pray they never lose it.

The technical details of emissions and such? Solvable. All anyone has to tell Mazda is that "it's impossible" for them to hunker down and do it anyway. They prove that time and time and time again over the decades. I think they get a kick out of it.
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Old 09-22-2015, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by gwilliams6 View Post
And will you eat your words if and when Mazda introduces the next RX model?

Countless folks before you have signaled and predicted the rotary's doom as a viable powerplant, only to eat their words later as they were thrilled at the latest Mazda rotary introduction. My money is on Mazda and not on you !!!
Sure, I'll eat my words. I'm more or less anonymous here so I'm terribly concerned if people I'm never likely to meet know I was wrong about some bit of esoterica.

That said, the rotary as a mechanical power plant is already dead.
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Old 09-22-2015, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by NotAPreppie View Post
Sure, I'll eat my words. I'm more or less anonymous here so I'm terribly concerned if people I'm never likely to meet know I was wrong about some bit of esoterica.

That said, the rotary as a mechanical power plant is already dead.
Shots fired! Shots fired!

Just kidding around, but the rotary dead, no way, maybe Mazda will never make another "RX-..." but the rotary is used in more than just consumer automobiles, so if there is a demand, there will be other companies manufacturing them.
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Old 09-22-2015, 09:03 AM
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You guys discount the power of someone doing what they want regardless of the consequences, simply because they want to.

I'll only believe that Mazda has given up on the rotary when they actually disband the rotary R+D division ... and they haven't. And if they haven't given up, then the "crazy" engineers, those amazingly inventive and innovative and creative guys with a passion for rotaries ... they will figure it out.

I personally believe that they figured it out a while back, and have just been refining, waiting for Mazda to recover from the global car slump, the tsunami, etc... with the SkyActive cars setting records, Mazda's CAFE score the highest of all manufacturers, and them making record profits, that waiting is getting closer to an end.

It will happen.
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Old 09-22-2015, 09:09 AM
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To be clear though, I don't ever believe anything motoring.au reports

They will eventually stumble on reporting something that just so happens to coincide with Mazda's actual release of information, but it will be chance. It won't erase their years and years of unsubstantiated smoke blowing reporting.
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Old 09-22-2015, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by gwilliams6 View Post
Countless folks before you have signaled and predicted the rotary's doom as a viable powerplant, only to eat their words later as they were thrilled at the latest Mazda rotary introduction. My money is on Mazda and not on you !!!
What Mazda rotary is currently in production? None.

Filling my life and my cars with LSx engines would bring me more HP, more torque, more reliability, more hop-up parts, lower costs, better economy, and hot chicks. But I'm a rotard and can't quit Wankeling myself. I've owned a half-dozen SA22Cs (still have several in the barnyard), two FDs including a CYM R1, and I absolutely love the brilliant-handling RX-8. But the Laws of Physics cannot be subverted by wishes and dreams and hopes and ponies.
OMG PONIES!

It will take serious science and engineering to overcome the ever-present problems with emissions and economy. Not there yet, as demonstrated by the fact there is no production rotary, no prototype rotary has been shown since 2007, and no concept car has been shown with a rotary since then either.

Mazda, keep doing what you're doing and putting money in the bank. Then, please build a light, fun, cheap RWD coupe that beats the pants off every overweight, overpriced pretender out there. If it's Wankel powered I will kiss your feet. If it's V6 or Turbo-4 powered I will persevere and still kick pretentious *** on the track. Thank you.
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Old 09-22-2015, 09:41 AM
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While I don't agree with gwilliam's reasoning...

Originally Posted by wankelbolt View Post
What Mazda rotary is currently in production? None.
Originally Posted by wankelbolt View Post
It will take serious science and engineering to overcome the ever-present problems with emissions and economy. Not there yet, as demonstrated by the fact there is no production rotary
Low sales ended the RX-8 production, and expected emissions standards kept it from immediately coming back, and then the global car industry slump and the tsunami happened. I agree that the rotary will not be a money maker for Mazda. It is because of this reason that Mazda couldn't put out one while they were losing money every quarter. It simply wasn't possible, they were fighting to stay afloat. Now that they are setting record profits, that isn't the problem any more. However, it takes time to get that re-started and going. A car design and release doesn't happen overnight. It's only been ... 18 months? since they got back into the black.

The design and engineering isn't the problem, money has been the problem. Mazda has already discussed publicly a solution for every emissions problem with the rotary (aluminum engine, better sealing, greater eccentricity, narrower rotors, award winning cat technology, higher compression, direct injection ... and that is all before the crazier ideas talked about like laser ignition or alternate options like hybrids), and already made a statement that they had an iteration that was just as clean as piston engines. It takes money, and then time (in that order) to get that to production.

Originally Posted by wankelbolt View Post
no prototype rotary has been shown since 2007
Actually, not true. A prototype rotary was shown in 2013: Rotary Engine Lives On In Range-Extended Electric Mazda 2 Prototype

Full powerplant? No, of course not. But it IS a prototype rotary, proof that they are still working on designs. And no, the fact that it isn't a full powerplant is not proof that they don't have a full power plant one available.
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Old 09-22-2015, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by wankelbolt View Post
It will take serious science and engineering to overcome the ever-present problems with emissions and economy. Not there yet, as demonstrated by the fact there is no production rotary, no prototype rotary has been shown since 2007, and no concept car has been shown with a rotary since then either.
That's not true, the last sign of life was from 2013: Exclusive first drive: Mazda Rotary Plug-In Hybrid | AOL Cars UK

Instead of recyling anything from Renesis or 16x it was even a newly developed engine used in a test fleet of 100 cars, so this is a proof for the existence of the Mazda rotary team.
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Old 09-22-2015, 10:04 AM
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Why are there no pictures of the engine?
Why didn't Mazda display the engine?
Why are there no specs for the engine?
Aren't they proud of their continuing development?
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Old 09-22-2015, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by wankelbolt View Post
Why are there no pictures of the engine?
Why didn't Mazda display the engine?
Why are there no specs for the engine?
Aren't they proud of their continuing development?

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Old 09-22-2015, 11:02 AM
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Nice! Thanks. Interesting combination of old and new as it appears to be a peri-port intake (side ports look blocked) and a single side-port exhaust.

Also not the prime-mover for the Mazda 2 EV.

I stand by the statement that without a major breakthrough we will never see another rotary-powered sports car. If I'm wrong I'll be at the front of the line with fists full of money.
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Old 09-22-2015, 11:11 AM
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So if they solve the emissions thing, and even if they can't increase power beyond ~250hp... what makes you say that it won't happen? The competition? The perceived "low power"?

If you look at the 2016 Miata. It's 12hp (7.2%) less peak power than the outgoing model, and also ~7.6% light than the outgoing model. When the numbers were introduced people boo-hooed it like crazy. But come to find out that because of the engineering involved, especially low end torque, the 2016 ND is a full second faster 0-60 than the outgoing 2015 NC. And that's with a peak of 100whp less than what they can already easily do with a rotary.

So even at 250hp, with more torque from the greater eccentricity, even if an extended wheelbase bumps curb weight to ~2,600... it's definitely going to be very quick, quicker than the numbers would suggest. Actually, it would be the fastest production car Mazda ever produced, and by a large margin. That is actually very un-Mazda like. And because of that, I could even see them using a not-extended ~2,300lb chassis for the rotary, and a detuned rotary down to ~200hp to dramatically improve longevity, and it would still be much faster than the RX-8.

So what is it exactly that makes you say that "it won't happen"?
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Old 09-22-2015, 11:49 AM
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^I think it's ponies... ya, definitely ponies!
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Old 09-22-2015, 11:58 AM
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I doubt it will happen with a rotary providing the primary mechanical drive (i.e. not hybrid range extender) for two main reasons:
1) Major issues in the core design principle of the rotary.
2) The small, light sportscar market has shrunk incredibly. What do we have left going forward? MX-5, Toyobaru Twins, and...? There's no S2000, no MR-2, the next Z-car looks like it's going to be a "Sports Crossover". Where's the next 240sx? Where's the GM Kappa platorm?

I'm guessing that the only reason the rotary R&D team haven't been disbanded is because of the EV range extender idea.
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Old 09-22-2015, 12:02 PM
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Neither of your reasons are actually reasons?

Point #1 makes an assumption that technology can't advance, which is obvious incorrect
Point #2 is pointing at something that literally has zero basis on Mazda. There wasn't a roadster market either in 1990... and that didn't stop them from making the best selling roadster of all time.
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Old 09-22-2015, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by gwilliams6 View Post
And will you eat your words if and when Mazda introduces the next RX model?

Countless folks before you have signaled and predicted the rotary's doom as a viable powerplant, only to eat their words later as they were thrilled at the latest Mazda rotary introduction. My money is on Mazda and not on you !!!
Dunno if this is directed at me, but YES!!! I will happily eat my words and then support Mazda by buying one! With expected improvements to the engine added to the weight loss achieved by SkyActiv engineering, it should be a stunning performer. I'll be all in!

I wonder if one of those newfangled engines could be made to work in my 8? It's first engine should be ragged out right about then...
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Old 09-22-2015, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by RIWWP View Post
So if they solve the emissions thing
[...]
So what is it exactly that makes you say that "it won't happen"?
Economic and political realities that they aren't likely to solve the emissions or economy things, and aren't big enough/rich enough to afford to make a car that doesn't make a profit.

Originally Posted by NotAPreppie View Post
I'm guessing that the only reason the rotary R&D team haven't been disbanded is because of the EV range extender idea.
It's about saving "face" too. The rotary may have a future as an EV extender since the size/power ratio makes sense there. But I think Mazda keeps the flame alive because 1) they want to, and 2) stopping would mean losing face by admitting failure.



While I'm loathe to suggest it, a rotary/electric hybrid might be a good solution if Musk is willing to sell packs from his gigafactory (can't say that word without thinking of the Gigashadow, lol!). The rotary lacks low-end torque (not that I've ever cared), while electric motors have all their torque at the low end. Sandwich the two together in a parallel hybrid through a traditional manual transmission, bolt a 5+ KWh battery in, and solve the low-end torque non-problem and maybe actually the economy and emissions problems.
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Old 09-22-2015, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by wankelbolt View Post
Economic and political realities that they aren't likely to solve the emissions or economy things, and aren't big enough/rich enough to afford to make a car that doesn't make a profit.
If a company is making 2% profit on their total revenue, there is room for something that will cost them 1% of that. It's all percentages. The 2011 RX-8 sure wasn't making them money at ~200 sold per month, but that doesn't mean that the company couldn't "afford" to keep it. They could. They had big plans in the works, and needed the room for those.

With Mazda making record profits, there is plenty of financial room for a car that doesn't make a profit. If it's a break even on the car, they could still do it with $5 in profit a year. There is plenty of room. Politics have no impact against it. CAFE score has plenty of room, since Mazda is leading all manufacturers in the score.

The fact that Mazda isn't huge is something in favor of it, not against it. The huge companies are the ones that wouldn't even consider doing this at all. Or do it like Toyota did, and make a really limited run just to show off, price it where no one that will actually drive it can buy it, and then sit back and watch the magazines for glowing reviews. Mazda can't afford to do that. But they CAN afford to make a rotary that is accessible to everyone, in lower volume, even if it is at a loss. It's all about volume there. The volume just can't be so much that it cripples the company. But it can certainly be allowed to soak up some of their profits.

It's totally doable.

Originally Posted by wankelbolt View Post
While I'm loathe to suggest it, a rotary/electric hybrid might be a good solution if Musk is willing to sell packs from his gigafactory (can't say that word without thinking of the Gigashadow, lol!). The rotary lacks low-end torque (not that I've ever cared), while electric motors have all their torque at the low end. Sandwich the two together in a parallel hybrid through a traditional manual transmission, bolt a 5+ KWh battery in, and solve the low-end torque non-problem and maybe actually the economy and emissions problems.
Yes, hybrid tech can easily be a good thing for performance and emissions reasons. However, why do people jump to heavy battery packs? Not only is lots of weight something Mazda is passionately against, but batteries are a terrible method for storing energy in a hybrid system. Mazda is already using super capacitors that do a FAR better job being much lighter (you just can't charge them up from a socket), and outside of that, there is a much much better more performance oriented way of storing kinetic energy:
2011 Porsche 911 GT3 R Hybrid 2.0 Race Car First Drive ? Porsche Hybrid Race Car Drive ? RoadandTrack.com

THAT's a hybrid I would totally love driving
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Old 09-22-2015, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by RIWWP View Post
If a company is making 2% profit on their total revenue, there is room for something that will cost them 1% of that.
Shareholders might have something to say about pissing away 50% of profits on a money-losing car. Mazda is a publicly-traded company whose first obligation is to make money for shareholders, not produce bitchin' cars for a small minority of car buyers.

It's totally doable.
But very likely will not happen.
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Old 09-22-2015, 02:05 PM
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Just an illustration. It won't be 50% even if it is a losing model. It would be relatively simple to ensure that any losses stay within manageable and acceptable ranges.

It wouldn't surprise me if the next rotary is a money maker. It also wouldn't surprise me if it isn't. I'm not counting them out on anything.
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Old 09-22-2015, 04:46 PM
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I'd like to see them come out with a 3 rotor Renesis engine, like a 20X that is paired with hybrid technology.
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Old 09-22-2015, 10:16 PM
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Mazda high-ups keep shutting down any idea of an MX-5 ND coupe, and won't even commit to a hardtop for a pseudo coupe, which makes me think maybe, just maybe there is a chance at a new RX.

The 16X already seemed to have impressive features way back when, it's been 8 years since that unveiling, surely they've improved here and there with a constant ~30 ish person engineering team.

Any new Mazda rotary is going to get my money for sure. I am extremely satisfied with my RX-8, I actually get irritated when I have to drive other cars, even sports cars.

The absolute best part about any new Mazda RX (apart from the wankel of course) is you can bet it'll have a 3 pedals option. R35 GTR, NSX, FT-1?... zzzZZzz boring

I would wager we will indeed get a new RX. Maybe not this year, but before the end of the decade I'd say is near certain. I also want to add that the CX-3 is coming soon. The CUV turds are huge money makers in the states, and Mazda is already doing pretty well. Plus the new CX-7 (9?) after that

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Old 09-22-2015, 10:56 PM
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Thanks guys for speaking up with hard facts and good reasoning to back up my passion and Mazda's track record of improving and keeping the rotary alive through every new emissions standard , every engineering hurdle, and corporate cafe quota since 1967. Some of you are too young to be believers and others are too blind to recognize Mazda's uniqueness in the way they see cars and put drivers and pure driving first, above all else. Its Mazda smallness and niche building that allow it to think outside the box of the minds of the big car companies. That is why Toyota wants to partner with Mazda. Mazda is punching far above its weight, and as long as they can continue record profits they WILL have the money to make that next rotary.

Sure the worldwide car market is always evolving and competition is tough, but the spirit of the folks at Mazda will always be to innovate and advance technologies and to be a leader, not a follower.

A new RX with improved fuel economy, improved emissions, ignition , lightweight and powerful will always have a market and buyers. I have counted on Mazda to re-imagine and reinvent its baby (as only it can) for the past 43 years I have been driving rotaries , and Mazda has never let me down.


One quote from a recent Car and Driver comparison test of small SUVs: "It’s this insistence on perfection in all things big and small that gives the CX-3 the win; its maker’s sixth straight comparison-test victory. We’re witnessing the birth of a new dominant species all right—not necessarily the subcompact crossover, but Mazda. "

This is the company that has the will and the vision to pull of another RX. Bring it on !

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