Mazda quality needs to rub off on Ford
02-09-2006, 11:36 AM
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Mazda quality needs to rub off on Ford
Parking my RX-8 next to my '02 Ford Explorer has done no good; the Explorer still has quality issues. Currently, it is in the Ford service shop for the second overhaul/rebuild of the 3.73LS differential. The first failure (loud howl at around 60 MPH) occurred during the factory warranty period. A new ring and pinion was installed, among other things and all was well for about 1000 miles when the howl started slowly returning. We got busy/burdeoned with some pressing family matters and didn't take the car back until just after the 12 month/12k mile warranty on the repair expired. So, now I have to eat the second repair costs. It is aggravating because the repair was 40~ days out, but the actual mileage on the repaired differential was only 9000 miles. Surely, a repair should last longer than 9k miles. At this point, I don't have tons of confidence that the new repair will last. If it fails during the 12/12 warranty, I'm sure my Ford servicing dealer will fix it, but no matter what, I will be on my own again after the 12/12 lapses. I've read lots of complaints about howling 3.73 differentials on many forums, yet Ford still can't wake up and get it right. Differentials are not rocket science. Too bad, because otherwise our Explorer has been a good vehicle. It tows our 3000 lb. tent trailer without a whimper and handles pretty well for an SUV.
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02-10-2006, 01:21 PM
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I hope Mazda quality doesn't rub off on Ford.....that would be a mistake. Here is were Mazda sits on the JD Power - Initial Quality Study, see page 5 of this PDF.
Last edited by bascho; 02-10-2006 at 01:31 PM.
02-10-2006, 05:28 PM
#5
Originally Posted by bascho
I hope Mazda quality doesn't rub off on Ford.....that would be a mistake. Here is were Mazda sits on the JD Power - Initial Quality Study, see page 5 of this PDF.
The JD Power's survey is worth wiping one's *** with.
If you look at their methodology, sampling methods, what they deem a defect, and the time frame they measure such 'problems' over (90 days), they can only be considered a useless company with useless surveys.
They rank Jaguar 2nd in quality? Are they f*cking serious?
Please.
02-10-2006, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by RotoRocket
The JD Power's survey is worth wiping one's *** with.
If you look at their methodology, sampling methods, what they deem a defect, and the time frame they measure such 'problems' over (90 days), they can only be considered a useless company with useless surveys.
They rank Jaguar 2nd in quality? Are they f*cking serious?
Please.
If you look at their methodology, sampling methods, what they deem a defect, and the time frame they measure such 'problems' over (90 days), they can only be considered a useless company with useless surveys.
They rank Jaguar 2nd in quality? Are they f*cking serious?
Please.
What's your problem with Jaguar being number two? The provided link is to an initial quality survey. There are separate studies that track long-term reliability. Jaguar doesn't fare nearly as well in these reports. And in case you're wondering, Ford ranks ahead of Mazda in the long-term reliability studies.
02-10-2006, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by RX8_Buckeye
You might feel that way, but the fact of the matter is that these studies, along with other internal quality measures, are used by all of the manufacturers to track new vehicle quality. The internal quality measures are derived from the same customer surveys used for the JD Power studies, and problems are categorized in nearly the same manner. It's far from a perfect measure, but it's the best source of data available. To dismiss the study as "useless" is ridiculous.
What's your problem with Jaguar being number two? The provided link is to an initial quality survey. There are separate studies that track long-term reliability. Jaguar doesn't fare nearly as well in these reports. And in case you're wondering, Ford ranks ahead of Mazda in the long-term reliability studies.
What's your problem with Jaguar being number two? The provided link is to an initial quality survey. There are separate studies that track long-term reliability. Jaguar doesn't fare nearly as well in these reports. And in case you're wondering, Ford ranks ahead of Mazda in the long-term reliability studies.
02-11-2006, 12:16 AM
#8
Originally Posted by RX8_Buckeye
You might feel that way, but the fact of the matter is that these studies, along with other internal quality measures, are used by all of the manufacturers to track new vehicle quality. The internal quality measures are derived from the same customer surveys used for the JD Power studies, and problems are categorized in nearly the same manner. It's far from a perfect measure, but it's the best source of data available. To dismiss the study as "useless" is ridiculous.
What's your problem with Jaguar being number two? The provided link is to an initial quality survey. There are separate studies that track long-term reliability. Jaguar doesn't fare nearly as well in these reports. And in case you're wondering, Ford ranks ahead of Mazda in the long-term reliability studies.
What's your problem with Jaguar being number two? The provided link is to an initial quality survey. There are separate studies that track long-term reliability. Jaguar doesn't fare nearly as well in these reports. And in case you're wondering, Ford ranks ahead of Mazda in the long-term reliability studies.
A far better source of data is Consumer Reports. They actually divided the survey they send to 300,000+ owners by each vehicle component(s) (e.g. transmission, engine, interior trim, exterior hardware, cooling system, etc.), and judge the vehicle over a much longer period of time based upon repair rates.
So, yes, JD Power's is about as close to useless as one can get when trying to use data to predict reliability and quality of vehicles.
And the fact that Jaguar, which makes some of the absolutely garbage can pieces of **** cars (think X type and S type), is rated 2nd in JD Powers survey, only confirms that what I'm saying has more than several large grains of absolute truth.
02-11-2006, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by RotoRocket
JD Power's survey is useless, because it uses complaints, many of which are minor (e.g. "I don't like how high up the vehicle is", or "I hear some wind noise at high speeds," or "the cupholders aren't large enough"), from owners during the 1st 90 days of ownership (otherwise known as "the honeymoon period," when most people still believe they love whatever car they've purchased), and tabulates a 'quality' or 'customer satisfaction' index based on the number complaints, without weighing them as to whether they are major, or minor (or whether they have anything to do with mechanical reliability).
A far better source of data is Consumer Reports. They actually divided the survey they send to 300,000+ owners by each vehicle component(s) (e.g. transmission, engine, interior trim, exterior hardware, cooling system, etc.), and judge the vehicle over a much longer period of time based upon repair rates.
So, yes, JD Power's is about as close to useless as one can get when trying to use data to predict reliability and quality of vehicles.
And the fact that Jaguar, which makes some of the absolutely garbage can pieces of **** cars (think X type and S type), is rated 2nd in JD Powers survey, only confirms that what I'm saying has more than several large grains of absolute truth.
A far better source of data is Consumer Reports. They actually divided the survey they send to 300,000+ owners by each vehicle component(s) (e.g. transmission, engine, interior trim, exterior hardware, cooling system, etc.), and judge the vehicle over a much longer period of time based upon repair rates.
So, yes, JD Power's is about as close to useless as one can get when trying to use data to predict reliability and quality of vehicles.
And the fact that Jaguar, which makes some of the absolutely garbage can pieces of **** cars (think X type and S type), is rated 2nd in JD Powers survey, only confirms that what I'm saying has more than several large grains of absolute truth.
You seem to be lumping long-term reliability and initial quality into the same category, which is not the case. The Consumer Reports data is more like the long-term reliability studies than the intial quality studies. Jaguars have been noted for their poor reliability, but it's perfectly reasonable that the initial quality could be quite good. In any case, using stereotypes of an automaker to judge the reliability of a report doesn't seem like a good practice. The data doesn't lie.
02-11-2006, 08:39 AM
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Amen to that...sometimes I wish that my ole Focus had been a Mazda, leave it to Ford to come out with a such a wonderful idea as the SVT Foc, but cobble it together with cheap parts and poor construction.
Don't get me wrong, I love my ride, but some of this crap shouldn't be happening under 40k miles...
Don't get me wrong, I love my ride, but some of this crap shouldn't be happening under 40k miles...
02-11-2006, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by RotoRocket
JD Power's survey is useless, because it uses complaints, many of which are minor (e.g. "I don't like how high up the vehicle is", or "I hear some wind noise at high speeds," or "the cupholders aren't large enough"), from owners during the 1st 90 days of ownership (otherwise known as "the honeymoon period," when most people still believe they love whatever car they've purchased), and tabulates a 'quality' or 'customer satisfaction' index based on the number complaints, without weighing them as to whether they are major, or minor (or whether they have anything to do with mechanical reliability).
A far better source of data is Consumer Reports. They actually divided the survey they send to 300,000+ owners by each vehicle component(s) (e.g. transmission, engine, interior trim, exterior hardware, cooling system, etc.), and judge the vehicle over a much longer period of time based upon repair rates.
So, yes, JD Power's is about as close to useless as one can get when trying to use data to predict reliability and quality of vehicles.
And the fact that Jaguar, which makes some of the absolutely garbage can pieces of **** cars (think X type and S type), is rated 2nd in JD Powers survey, only confirms that what I'm saying has more than several large grains of absolute truth.
A far better source of data is Consumer Reports. They actually divided the survey they send to 300,000+ owners by each vehicle component(s) (e.g. transmission, engine, interior trim, exterior hardware, cooling system, etc.), and judge the vehicle over a much longer period of time based upon repair rates.
So, yes, JD Power's is about as close to useless as one can get when trying to use data to predict reliability and quality of vehicles.
And the fact that Jaguar, which makes some of the absolutely garbage can pieces of **** cars (think X type and S type), is rated 2nd in JD Powers survey, only confirms that what I'm saying has more than several large grains of absolute truth.
Call up Toyota and Honda and ask them if they feel JD Power's rating system is totally useless. Only a Mazda fanboi will call the rating system useless because Mazda is second from the bottom......if they were second from the top you'd be singing a different tune. I have owned one Mazda and so far I am not impressed. I love my 8 for the performance and styling....but the quality has been lower than what I have been used to with Ford. Like I've said in other threads.....I've owned 8 Fords in my life......not one of them ever broke down on me. Now....some of those I only had for 12-18 months......but others I had for 3-4 years. I have been disappointed in many aspects of those Ford vehicles.....bland looks, lower performance, boring interiors.......but the quality has never been an issue. You can say all you want about Ford being boring or under-powered or no M/T availability in some cars.......but don't talk **** about Ford's quality because you'll sound uninformed. Is the 'Ford brand' below the Industry average.....sure, by a point or two......but they have gone up that chart for the last 4 years. I think in 2006 we'll see Ford above the industry average. Brands like Lincoln and Jaguar belong in the top levels of quality. Jaguars used to be problem cars.....but that has changed. What was the most recent Jag you've owned that had a lot of problems or low quality?
02-11-2006, 09:57 AM
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^^ Hey... I know I've been on a "lack of M/T" bashing session recently, but if you follow all my posts for the last about 2 years I have been on this forum, I have consistently defended Ford's reliability. They may make/made some cheap plastic interiors with bad ergonomics, bland styling, etc. But between my father and I... we've had 4 Ford Mustangs.. '79, '83, '87 and '90. Not one has ever broken down and left us on the side of the road. I can't say that about the Hondas we've owned. Other than the heater core and the turbo on the '79 pace car (which is well-known and fixed in the '84 SVO)... all of those cars were problem free. My friend and his mother own Fords... they treat their cars terribly (lack of oil changes, tune ups, etc.) and they have never had problems being stranded by their cars. As bascho has pointed out... Ford's quality... initial and long term has greatly improve and is still going up. This is one area where people are just buying into stereotypes about domestics... Ford in particular.
02-11-2006, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Japan8
^^ Hey... I know I've been on a "lack of M/T" bashing session recently, but if you follow all my posts for the last about 2 years I have been on this forum, I have consistently defended Ford's reliability. They may make/made some cheap plastic interiors with bad ergonomics, bland styling, etc. But between my father and I... we've had 4 Ford Mustangs.. '79, '83, '87 and '90. Not one has ever broken down and left us on the side of the road. I can't say that about the Hondas we've owned. Other than the heater core and the turbo on the '79 pace car (which is well-known and fixed in the '84 SVO)... all of those cars were problem free. My friend and his mother own Fords... they treat their cars terribly (lack of oil changes, tune ups, etc.) and they have never had problems being stranded by their cars. As bascho has pointed out... Ford's quality... initial and long term has greatly improve and is still going up. This is one area where people are just buying into stereotypes about domestics... Ford in particular.
Japan, I know you defend Fords........I just wanted to make you feel included with the M/T comment.....and it worked
Actually, I agree with you on that point as I always choose a M/T over an A/T when available. I have mentioned your comments to program managers around here (don't get a big head over it 
) and they sympathize. I always get the same two response.....one which is know is BS which goes like this, "we are still developing a viable M/T option." uh huh...sure. The second response is one I believe to be true, which goes like this, " market research has shown that even when M/T are available, the % sold is less then 5% of total sales." Obviously this is directed at mid-sze sedans and not sports cars like the RX8 and Mustang. When bean counters see market research like that....they say "why offer it if less than 5% will buy it?". Market research can be a great thing and a terrible thing. It's great for getting auto companies to increase the amount of content available in a vehicle......but horrible for those of us that buy in the <5% catagory.By the way, the 1986 SVO Mustang is one of my all-time favorite cars.
Last edited by bascho; 02-11-2006 at 10:15 AM.
02-11-2006, 10:26 AM
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^^ Yeah... I knew you were just trying to bust my *****. :D
I figured that the program managers would say that about the bean counters. I directly fire back at them... the drivetrain used in the Fusion is exactly the same as the Mazda6. Don't bullshit me. There is no development needed... no costs other than shipping if the factories are different. Just offer the F%$#"'&g option. So who cares if only 5% or less would get one! Even if each dealer has only one their lot... that's fine. People like us who want one can special order it. And honestly... this is one of my biggest grips today with the blind following of bean counters (I'd fire them all myself... :D ). I don't care if it doesn't sell much... you don't have to produce it in volume. Hell... even though the M/T costs less to produce and gets better gas mileage, I'll pay extra for one as a "special" option... like A/T used to be. So there you go... bean counters happy... recoup some of the costs that way. otherwise... I'm sorry... no Lincoln for me. As much as I hate the current 5 Series styling and the 3 series is so so... I'd bite the bullet and get a BMW or Audi instead. In the cheaper markets... I'd get a Mazda6 over a Fusion just to get my M/T. The same thing yet again with the RX-8... why no freaking sunroof delete option on the GT package? As if it really costs them extra money to have this option available for at least those who will order their car (or like I mentioned before, just have one or two cars equipped like that on the dealers' lot). Who cares about Toyota... their cars are the most dull pieces of mierda on the road. Lead... don't follow. Ford did it once with the original Taurus and that's what it will take for them to take back market share... be more daring and creative as a company.
I figured that the program managers would say that about the bean counters. I directly fire back at them... the drivetrain used in the Fusion is exactly the same as the Mazda6. Don't bullshit me. There is no development needed... no costs other than shipping if the factories are different. Just offer the F%$#"'&g option. So who cares if only 5% or less would get one! Even if each dealer has only one their lot... that's fine. People like us who want one can special order it. And honestly... this is one of my biggest grips today with the blind following of bean counters (I'd fire them all myself... :D ). I don't care if it doesn't sell much... you don't have to produce it in volume. Hell... even though the M/T costs less to produce and gets better gas mileage, I'll pay extra for one as a "special" option... like A/T used to be. So there you go... bean counters happy... recoup some of the costs that way. otherwise... I'm sorry... no Lincoln for me. As much as I hate the current 5 Series styling and the 3 series is so so... I'd bite the bullet and get a BMW or Audi instead. In the cheaper markets... I'd get a Mazda6 over a Fusion just to get my M/T. The same thing yet again with the RX-8... why no freaking sunroof delete option on the GT package? As if it really costs them extra money to have this option available for at least those who will order their car (or like I mentioned before, just have one or two cars equipped like that on the dealers' lot). Who cares about Toyota... their cars are the most dull pieces of mierda on the road. Lead... don't follow. Ford did it once with the original Taurus and that's what it will take for them to take back market share... be more daring and creative as a company.
02-11-2006, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Japan8
^^ Yeah... I knew you were just trying to bust my *****. :D
I figured that the program managers would say that about the bean counters. I directly fire back at them... the drivetrain used in the Fusion is exactly the same as the Mazda6. Don't bullshit me. There is no development needed... no costs other than shipping if the factories are different. Just offer the F%$#"'&g option. So who cares if only 5% or less would get one! Even if each dealer has only one their lot... that's fine. People like us who want one can special order it. And honestly... this is one of my biggest grips today with the blind following of bean counters (I'd fire them all myself... :D ). I don't care if it doesn't sell much... you don't have to produce it in volume. Hell... even though the M/T costs less to produce and gets better gas mileage, I'll pay extra for one as a "special" option... like A/T used to be. So there you go... bean counters happy... recoup some of the costs that way. otherwise... I'm sorry... no Lincoln for me. As much as I hate the current 5 Series styling and the 3 series is so so... I'd bite the bullet and get a BMW or Audi instead. In the cheaper markets... I'd get a Mazda6 over a Fusion just to get my M/T. The same thing yet again with the RX-8... why no freaking sunroof delete option on the GT package? As if it really costs them extra money to have this option available for at least those who will order their car (or like I mentioned before, just have one or two cars equipped like that on the dealers' lot). Who cares about Toyota... their cars are the most dull pieces of mierda on the road. Lead... don't follow. Ford did it once with the original Taurus and that's what it will take for them to take back market share... be more daring and creative as a company.
I figured that the program managers would say that about the bean counters. I directly fire back at them... the drivetrain used in the Fusion is exactly the same as the Mazda6. Don't bullshit me. There is no development needed... no costs other than shipping if the factories are different. Just offer the F%$#"'&g option. So who cares if only 5% or less would get one! Even if each dealer has only one their lot... that's fine. People like us who want one can special order it. And honestly... this is one of my biggest grips today with the blind following of bean counters (I'd fire them all myself... :D ). I don't care if it doesn't sell much... you don't have to produce it in volume. Hell... even though the M/T costs less to produce and gets better gas mileage, I'll pay extra for one as a "special" option... like A/T used to be. So there you go... bean counters happy... recoup some of the costs that way. otherwise... I'm sorry... no Lincoln for me. As much as I hate the current 5 Series styling and the 3 series is so so... I'd bite the bullet and get a BMW or Audi instead. In the cheaper markets... I'd get a Mazda6 over a Fusion just to get my M/T. The same thing yet again with the RX-8... why no freaking sunroof delete option on the GT package? As if it really costs them extra money to have this option available for at least those who will order their car (or like I mentioned before, just have one or two cars equipped like that on the dealers' lot). Who cares about Toyota... their cars are the most dull pieces of mierda on the road. Lead... don't follow. Ford did it once with the original Taurus and that's what it will take for them to take back market share... be more daring and creative as a company.
Japan.....I totally agree with you on this one.......Ford should veto the bean counters and just offer the M/T. I really feel our only hope is SVT on this one though.......they will definitely push for the M/T availability before they get involved. Believe me, everyone that provides constructive criticism of Ford on this forum gets my ear and I then in turn pass that info along to those in the company that will hear it. They're many people in Ford that are like you and me......the 'passionate ones' as I like to call them. I am not goingto lie to you.....they're a lot of people working in the automotive industry that don't know the first thing about cars......and could care less about them. I always found that to be a strange phenomenon......why would you choose to work in the auto industry if you have no interest in cars? I love cars.....always have. I study them, I work on them, I have sex with them (j.k).......but seriously, I wanted to work for Ford to be involved with cars....something I love. I am not shy about pointing out the 'stupid ideas' at product launch meetings I attend for future vehicles. In fact I have pissed many engineers off by bashing their design or decision into the ground during a walk-around.
02-11-2006, 11:37 AM
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i disagree my ZX3 NEVER had any factory problems. every problem it had was from me and that was only bending the stock wheels. the RX8 on the other hand has, flooding problems(i've never experienced), recalls out the ***, daily TSB's and i've already lost 1 motor due to failed Metering pump. so personally i wish mazda would take some lessons from FORD EUROPE. i love my 8 but still am worried bout longevity of it
02-11-2006, 11:58 AM
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^^ Well hopefully SVT will get them to do the M/T for the Fusion. I agree with you about passions and working for Ford.
I seriously envy you. I'm just like you... I love cars. Period. I've been having a love affair with cars since the cradle... my parents would take me on drives just to put me to sleep. Like being in the mother's womb... so comforting... I'd always fall asleep. I could name Chevy's and Ford's by age 3. I wasted tons of paper throughout elementary and middle school drawing pictures of cars, interiors and engines. I had one of the largest collections of legos... always building cars and trying to find ways to bring more real life car things to lego cars... transverse-mounted mid-ship engines, FWD (the lack of CV joint's was my major roadblock here), IRS, and more. I had so planned on doing engineering in college... I was already starting to scope schools like Rensselaer University, Marquette University , Embry Riddle University when I was still in junior high school. What happened? Math... high school Algebra II (Adv Algebra) and Calculus. It just doesn't come easily for me like it seems to for the engineer types. So maybe I wasn't cut out for it... but I still had hopes to get in the business side... but somehow I ended up in IT. If I ever had the chance... hell yeah I'd jump ship and go work for an automaker.
I seriously envy you. I'm just like you... I love cars. Period. I've been having a love affair with cars since the cradle... my parents would take me on drives just to put me to sleep. Like being in the mother's womb... so comforting... I'd always fall asleep. I could name Chevy's and Ford's by age 3. I wasted tons of paper throughout elementary and middle school drawing pictures of cars, interiors and engines. I had one of the largest collections of legos... always building cars and trying to find ways to bring more real life car things to lego cars... transverse-mounted mid-ship engines, FWD (the lack of CV joint's was my major roadblock here), IRS, and more. I had so planned on doing engineering in college... I was already starting to scope schools like Rensselaer University, Marquette University , Embry Riddle University when I was still in junior high school. What happened? Math... high school Algebra II (Adv Algebra) and Calculus. It just doesn't come easily for me like it seems to for the engineer types. So maybe I wasn't cut out for it... but I still had hopes to get in the business side... but somehow I ended up in IT. If I ever had the chance... hell yeah I'd jump ship and go work for an automaker.
02-11-2006, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by bascho
Japan, I know you defend Fords........I just wanted to make you feel included with the M/T comment.....and it worked Actually, I agree with you on that point as I always choose a M/T over an A/T when available. I have mentioned your comments to program managers around here (don't get a big head over it ) and they sympathize. I always get the same two response.....one which is know is BS which goes like this, "we are still developing a viable M/T option." uh huh...sure. The second response is one I believe to be true, which goes like this, " market research has shown that even when M/T are available, the % sold is less then 5% of total sales." Obviously this is directed at mid-sze sedans and not sports cars like the RX8 and Mustang. When bean counters see market research like that....they say "why offer it if less than 5% will buy it?". Market research can be a great thing and a terrible thing. It's great for getting auto companies to increase the amount of content available in a vehicle......but horrible for those of us that buy in the <5% catagory.
By the way, the 1986 SVO Mustang is one of my all-time favorite cars.
Actually, I agree with you on that point as I always choose a M/T over an A/T when available. I have mentioned your comments to program managers around here (don't get a big head over it ) and they sympathize. I always get the same two response.....one which is know is BS which goes like this, "we are still developing a viable M/T option." uh huh...sure. The second response is one I believe to be true, which goes like this, " market research has shown that even when M/T are available, the % sold is less then 5% of total sales." Obviously this is directed at mid-sze sedans and not sports cars like the RX8 and Mustang. When bean counters see market research like that....they say "why offer it if less than 5% will buy it?". Market research can be a great thing and a terrible thing. It's great for getting auto companies to increase the amount of content available in a vehicle......but horrible for those of us that buy in the <5% catagory.By the way, the 1986 SVO Mustang is one of my all-time favorite cars.
The SVO was a sweet Mustang, wasn't it?
Thanks for passing on thoughts/feelings on the lack of M/T. No need to worry about me getting a big head...
02-12-2006, 02:30 PM
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"mazda quality"... you mean like the temp **** that broke in the first week, the gear shifter paint that rubs off, 3 broken armrest covers, and 2.5 years later the never ending interior panels sqeaks and rattles????
02-12-2006, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by r0tor
"mazda quality"... you mean like the temp **** that broke in the first week, the gear shifter paint that rubs off, 3 broken armrest covers, and 2.5 years later the never ending interior panels sqeaks and rattles????
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