zoom44

http://money.cnn.com/2006/02/06/Auto...mazda_minicar/

so when i asked "what should Mazda do" in this previous thread-

https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...ighlight=mazda


i guess i have an answer

design a whole new car!

brillo previously suggested to me that Ford's ailing in the US would be a boon to Mazda. it looks like that is becoming reality.

Spin9k

Haa Haa! Smart guy this Mark...when your company doesn't have a clue how to even find the aformentioned 'small car market'...you lie through your smile... and hire someone else (who knows it well) to do it for you. Genius!

A laughable oversight this considering... Since Ford can't find the small car market in the 1st place, he's obviously not noticed that sad-sack GM has joined the market with interesting cars like the Solstice/Sky and the Cobolt. Or is he simply ignoring them? On the other hand, GM probably is just as happy he missing in action lol.

hemanrulez

sounds like a good idea, doesnt Ford have a nice compat car in Europe? I forget the name. Clarkson on Top gear liked it.

Tirminyl

Fiesta, Ka?

zoom44

solstice sky and cobalt are not in the segment being discussed.

Mark Fields is the guy who turned Mazda around so he is intimately familiar with Mazda's abilities. He also did wonders for Ford Europe after his stint at Mazda. He was brought to Ford US to make just this kind of change. Dont confuse him with previous Ford execs.

Spin9k

I realize who he is, just pointing out his words and phrasing sound a bit silly, like he's simply playing to his domestic USA audience. After all Ford does have good small 'Kas' elsewhere... it seems he acting like they don't exist and this is all new.

Him bringing in Mazda for the design is smart, as Ford is of course putting other Mazda design platforms to good use already, so why not do more of what works in this smaller segment.

Ike

Yeah, it's funny that Ford just pretends they don't have great cars in Europe. The Ka is a cool little car and does very well in Europe, they even have a sporty little model (SportKa)that is supposed to be a blast to drive.

rx8wannahave

Sounds like a good idea, but if Ford would bring over some of their Euro stuff they would be fine also.

Design1stCode2nd

Never understood why Ford didn't bring the Euro Focus over here. Call it something different and put a different body on it if you have to.

Japan8

He was also a Ford exec before he was President of Mazda. He was the first foreign president of Mazda, put in place by Ford after Ford increased their holdings in Mazda during the late 90's.

Japan8

Ford is dumb. They got burned on the Contour and Merkur so they THINK the Euro models won't sell. This is a case of "stork fallacy". They are missing what the real cause of the problem has been. There is such a thing as right time and place. PLus let's not forget styling and pricing.

I think it's time to try this again. One thing... styling... the Focus looks like *** on both shores. Forget that kind of styling. The new Civic... ewww. Lexus, Infiniti, some Audi and VW and very few current BMW's. Take some lessons from the styling used there... use a global PLATFORM (NOT body. so here I mean like the Mazda3/Focus/Volvo S40, Mazda6/CX-7/Fusion)... do this and you'll see some good results (especially if you can toss a couple RWD and AWD cars in the mix).

Not just mazda... but Ford needs to read this forum too. There was another thread on it too... bring over more of the European and Australian cars!

hemanrulez

its the Focus ST I was thinking about. Clarkson really praised it.

http://ford.co.uk/ns7/foc_c307/foc_c...osite/-/-/-/-#

Spin9k

You'd think for expediencies sake, if for no other reason, Ford US would just ****** this nice looking, superior small car from Europe (Focus lineup) and plunk it down here NOW, rather than wait til 2008 or whenever they say they'll have it here. Or even to wait to have Mazda 'invent' another eco car two years down the road and way to late to catch the market upswing happening NOW.

Even at that, I would guess they'll only intro a watered down eco car version with like 102 HP and a 'upgraded' or 'sport' version with ~140HP.

Anyone remember the Ford Cortina, the Pinto, the Ford Fiesta, the Escort? Bleak offerings. Kudos to them if they surprise me and start really trying to compete with the imports by bringing a serious, full model lineup, but I doubt it will happen, Ford US just doesn't think that way.

Mazda 2 look-alike is a more likely type car to carry on the Ford tradition of too little too late. American product planners/bean counters at Ford will probably never learn.

zoom44

this is the segment smaller than focus so they are talking about Festiva and Mazda2. Mazda is already working on the replacement platform for the next GEn Mazda2 and this platform will be used in US by Ford as well as europe. in europe it will be the next festiva.

bascho

Everyone needs to calm down. You are blaming Ford for not bringing 'A' and 'B' class products to the US.....but you need to blame your neighbor with the Hemi Charger. Americans don't want small cars.....isn't that obvious???? Mark Fields was talking about this emerging 'Y-Gen Market' and the need for small cars....but his mention of 2008 is just about right. I think the total sales of all current 'A' and 'B' class cars sold in the US are still less than 450,000 units. The Camry sells nearly 500,000 units all by itself. Ford has product in Europe and the rest of the world for markets that appreciate small cars and actually buy them. The Ka is a great 'A' class car for Ford in world markets, the Fiesta is a great 'B' car for Ford in world markets, the Focus is a unbelievably great seller in the 'B-C' class segment in the world markets......so let's stop blaming Ford. When America is ready.....TRULY READY to get serious about small cars.....then Ford will have them available. Until then, Ford will continue to sell what people want.

Red Devil

^^^
What is it you do for Ford again? You might want to ask them for commission for standing-up for them so much on this site.

And I agree with what you say above, to me that's why North America has Mustangs but not the FocusRS.

ASH8

I respect Bascho's views here and he is correct about the US market and their love for "Large" cars.

I would not though call the Ford KA a great car, Ford Australia imported it here and it failed to impress and compete with other Japanese cars of similar size, IMO if a small car does not sell in Australia, its not going to work in the USA.

The Focus here does well, with the Mazda 3/Volvo platform share, the updated Focus is not doing as well here as Ford would like, still early days though/supply issues, the Mazda 3 is a huge success like in every other world market also.

The German Fiesta does OK here, but again is not the market leader, at the moment that goes to the Suzuki Swift, Mazda 2, Toyota Yaris, my neighbour has the latest Fiesta and its a well built German car for its size, very thin sheet metal!

IMO I just can not see the US ever downgrading into these very small and light cars, not in any volume sales, they are OK for the young family members, but, the reality is that like many Australians, these small cars just don't fit our human bodies comfortably, as we are the most overweight in the world. USA #1, Australia #2,,, too squeezy..

And then there are the safety/crash issues with small cars mentioned.

Spin9k

Basho, what you say about Ford (or GM, or to some extent D-C) making what Americans want and therfore few small cars as Americans aren't ready for small cars is just silliness.

It's no doubt some Americans love their big cars (but perhaps we should say their TRUCKS, to be more exact), but the logic that the big 3 are simply making the cars Americans want and therefore they don't make many small cars is laughable.

For example, how did these following manufacturers decimate the big 3s auto sales in the US over the last 4 decades if that is so? Most of these 'small car' manufacturers didn't even have a presence in the US 40 years ago. Look at the market they have stolen from those making 'big cars' (& trucks)!

Just some that have risen from vitually no sales to today's position in the market (in no particualr order) Hyundai, Toyota, Mazda, Honda, Kia, Acura, Nissan, Volkwagan, Suzuki, Mini, Porsche, Saab, Mitsubish, Scion, Subaru.

These companies all manufacture QUALITY small car LINES, not just single point product cars, and are unbelievably continuing the attack that Detroit seem to be blind to.

Japan8

Who said I was talking about "A" or "B" class cars? I've been talking about their entire lineup except for trucks/SUV's. And what's wrong with offering one or two niche cars? Not SVT sported up current models. I mean a completely niche car... the Ford GT is one, but I actually mean one that is affordable. No need to mortage the home to bring the cars enthusiasts like over... but hell. DCX got their whole Hemi thing going and it's built excitement for the brand... it's got people walking into their showrooms to check out the Hemi 300C SRT-8. Where's the excitement at Ford? Don't give me the Ford GT or GT500. None of the SVT stuff is widely available at nearly every dealership for people to check out. At least in the case of the GT500 there is an affordable lower model car for people to buy, but that isn't the case with the Ford GT. Anyway the point is... Ford needs to make more exciting cars. This has been said before... except for the Mustang... *yawn* Yes even the Fusion. Exterior is ok. Interior could be better, the parts bin steering wheel sucks and lack of MT in the V6 model sucks royally. Yes there is an SVT model coming... but it's not here now and as far as we know it won't be here in 2007. It won't have a Hemi either. Too little, too late. Ford needs to fire all the bean counters and just do something crazy... something daring, creative... something that will get people's attention (that is in the affordable market). I think that this is really what people here are crying about.

bascho

I work in PD.......but I grew up in a Ford family. My dad has worked for Ford for 30 years and I consider him a mentor and a father. Ford has lots of problems and many of them are very complicated. But I believe that the biggest obsticals to change are the mindsets of the people that work here. There are Ford employees that do not like Ford at all. Do you think those people are helping make the company better? I understand that some people here think that working for Ford may be the only option based on job availability in their area.....but that is BS. I didn't have to work for Ford.....I wanted to work for Ford. I love the fact that even though Ford has 350,000 employess spread across 6 continents, it still feels like a family company. Do I love every single product that Ford makes....No. But I don't like every single product that any company makes. I love Porsche......I hate the Cayanne (sp?). I love Ford, I hate the US market Focus, Taurus, Crown Vic.......but I love the Mustang, the Fusion, the Edge....and the Five Hundred is a really nice car for the money. It's not the most exciting exterior....yet But the interior is extremely nice and AWD is a huge asset to those of us in the northern states. Remember, the Five Hundred is built on a Volvo S80 platform.....it's really an understated car.

I should get commission though

bascho

Using the term 'small car' is really subjective. Some people consider the Fusion or Camry a small car. Vehicles are broken into segments such as 'A', 'B', 'BC', 'C', 'CD', 'D', and so on. When I say that 'A' and 'B' segment cars will not sell in the US that is based on historical and present sales information. The Asian car makers did not get rich in the US by selling 'A' and 'B' segment cars.....they got rich selling 'C' and 'CD' cars. The reason they were able to break into this segment in the US is that Americans of then and now believe in the bigger is better theory. When I say Americans, I mean citizens that have lived in this country for several generations. Immigrants to the US do not have the same mindset and thus purchased the smaller automobiles they were used to in their native country. It just so happened that the smaller cars were available in great #'s from Asian car makers. The US eventually started pumping out 'BC' & 'C' segment cars......but they had no clue how to do that. Why? because these companys employ Americans who feel bigger is better. The US attempt at the 'BC' and 'C' segment car produced cheap crap that exaggerated the quality gap between the Asian brand and US domestic ones. If you research the trend for all cars sold in the US, you will see that ALL cars are getting larger. The Civic started out as a 'B' segment car and has morphed into a 'BC' segment car....why, Americans wanted a bigger Civic. A Camry from the early 90's is noticably smaller than one built today. If smaller was better in the US, why wouldn't these cars be shrinking?

By the way Mazda, Kia, Acura, Volkwagan, Suzuki, Mini, Porsche, Saab, Mitsubish, BMW, Scion, & Subaru are so much as a blip on the market share pie in the US.

bascho

I think you've been watching too many DCX commercials featuring the Hemi ads. The actual percentages of SRT8 packaged 300's, Charger's, Magnum's, Grand Cherokee's & Ram's is very low. In fact SRT8 products and SVT products probably have the same regional availabilty. Don't think that just because they offer the 6.1 in 6 different vehicles, that is what people are buying. The SRT8 option brings the sale price of these vehicles over $40K, which means the sales of these are probably less than 2000 per nameplate. I am just guessing here, so if someone has data to support or disprove my statement, please provide it.

Anyone who is a car enthusiest wants car makers to make fast, sporty, handsome, well appointed cars for us to drool over......but many times these niche cars are lost leaders. The domestic auto makers don't have the disposable cash right now to waste on low volume niche cars. Remember the T-bird, that was a niche vehicle that Ford took a bath on. You think that GM can afford another SSR fiasco? What niche car is Toyota building?

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

Have u guys ever wondered why American's home brew cars never had any good sales, when they compared to what Japanese Car Manufature. Im talking about not only the Sales numbers within the States, Im talking about the Whole world.

I agree with bascho, Look at that Charger... Americans dont want small cars ... yet, that thing is superior in terms of ugliness and I-would-rather-buy-a-Truck-than-that-kind-of-design.

I see them on the streets almost everyday, and so far the only people who "owns them", as far as I can tell/see, are americans. Just like the "type of americans that Bascho described"

Yeah Im in NYC of course its full of americans but what Im trying to say is that, they want to have "big" stuff so it can make them look like they're tough or something, why? yeah always changing lanes w/o any singal, or even singal they dont care they always tried to push you away.

But sad thing is that I never let them, gave them the finger and I just keep going, hit me if you dare pussies !

Of course many of them thinks that, "my charger have 350 horse and Im gonna smoke ur ***", I bet their eyes were "wide open" when they cant even see my tail light after like some straight and 2 corners.

back to topic, hmm however, things are changing slowly now, more and more americans reliazed the fact that they like smaller cars.

But Ford .... I dont know, This company sometimes makes me sick. Always late for the market and they still thinks that theyre like 100 years ago when they pretty much owned the market. Its really sad that Mazda gotta "work with/for" such moron corporation.

Oh bascho ... I think even big Corporation like Microsoft, have employees that "hates/dislike" their own company. So what excatly is your point? Microsoft is still the #1 software company in the world. Bill Gates still the richest dude on earth.

So I think it has nothing to do with "my employees love/hate" my company or not. It has alot to do with exec's decision. and Ford made alot of stupid/avoidable mistakes in their history. and they're still doing it now.

I saw quite alot of commericals on TV lately starting Bill Ford. Yep, its time to show your *** up more, dont end up like GM.

bascho

See, this is the mindset that needs to change. Ford does own Mazda (in a way) and therefore does not need to compete with them in the same markets. Ford does use global platforms developed through partnerships with Mazda, Jaguar and Volvo. These global platforms are split into various 'looks' and 'content levels' in order to compete with non-Ford competitors. Why would Ford need to build a Ford branded vehicle that looks like a Mazda? or Volvo? Ford was founded on being a car for Joe Smith, the everyman. Ford doesn't need to make a Fusion V6 with a 5MT or 6MT.....Mazda 6 meets that need. Ford doesn't need an STI or EVO, they have a Mazda MS6 and the Volvo S60R.

Now, what Ford does need is more 'BC' and 'C' segment cars. The US market Focus is all wrong for today's needs. I think the US is ready for the Focus sold everywhere else in the world. They can retain the cheap entry level of the base versions to appeal to the 'point A to point B type of commuter' and then also have a more expensive ST for those willing to spend over $20K on a 'C' segment car. They also need a 2-door version of the 'CD' segment platform the CD3. The 2-door Accord has done very well in the US and Ford does not have any car in this segment. The future will show if the 'B' segment car will take-off in the US....and if it does, they have the Fiesta platform to work from. Last year Ford had the synUS concept at the NAIAS which was an example of the range the Fiesta platform is capable of.

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

I understand what you're trying to say, but the thing is that.

Ford made alot of stupid mistakes, but the question should be.

*When will they learn their lessons ?*

It's been a while that these BC and C cars are doing very well in the market. but why Ford still doing stupid stuff? Maybe u're right about they still hired alot of Americans and thinks that "Bigger = better" kind of theory.

*off topic, MS6 is a great car but ... its nowhere near STi/Evo level ... imo*