Renesis_8

How are they gonna find the speed, and most importantly reliability...
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UrYoungSweetMara

rotary crazy

I just dont see how with the current package, but mazda has spend millions of dollars on this proyect I just dont see them go away, even knowing that the AER engine package its a dead end

if only mazda would have stay with the rotary and go 4 rotor like it was ready to......

now with a NA 24x mazda may be competitive againg, but not for a couple of seasons

Another thing its that the LOLA chassis only has one more good season left (barely), afther that they most improve it and that means $$$$$$$

rotary crazy

some speculation and old info:

I find it really intresting that the 16x comes with the casting allready made for the 3erd spark plug, the only engine that used this was the r26b, it was pretty expensive for mazda to make does rotor housings as the normal housings didnt have this and they had to be made specially for the r26b

maybe mazda will offer a new race engine a la r26b?

about a year ago some one mention that mazda was retooling to make 3 rotor race engines, when I said it here in the forum people told me that this was not going to happeng and that there was no retooling needed, I move on and did not mention it againg

maybe the retooling was needed because it was a 24x or 32x?

maybe theres some hope left afther all?

rotary crazy

there you go 5-12-2006:

https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...=retooling+20b

Renesis_8

Interesting post RC.

I think the 3rd spark plug is there to aid emissions, just in case they need it. The end result might benefit applications in racing, thats all.

What hasn't been mentioned so far is that to make a 24X, Mazda themselves must make the eccentric shaft. No race teams will take on this challenge, maybe this is the retooling you are talking about RC? The eccentric shaft is easily the hardest part to make in a rotary engine.
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Roll A Joint

rotary crazy

well it is a old rumor, and it was just mention

I think 3-4% better fuel economy in a street car is not really important, but in a race car in a 400 lap race it is

also remember that the 3erd spark plug did help with torque

Renesis_8

The old courage thread was awesome, filled with information and speculations. And reading it again now that all the mysteries(almost) have been solved makes an awesome read.
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The Legend Condominium Cosy Beach

rotary crazy

yes, those where good times even with the courage not being competitive

I heard thet the courage was going to be a permanent display at mazda in irvine

Renesis_8

From the Courage thread, we can pretty much conclude that everything Boostd_7 said was true. (lol no surprise)

He mentioned that it was either supercharged 3-rotor and NA 4-rotor or lighter weight. Even tho we all know that by now that they went with the lighter weight option (new Lola)

Therefore the decision to use rotary was somehow rejected by someone, somewhere, haha, which leads us to RG's comment.
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BUY CANNABIS SEEDS

rotary crazy

there was some guy in the team that came from another race team that push for the rotary to be drop, he is no longer with the team

rotarygod

Aw hell. May as well tell them as he isn't here and you've given away a dead obvious hint to anyone who looks into it. Marcus Hasselgrove killed the rotary engine. He came in from Audi and basically wanted to turn BK into Audi. He always wanted to get rid of everyone and replace them with old Audi people. How I have no idea as Audi canned him for trying to restructure their team too. Old habits die hard. He didn't like the rotary engine. He wanted new people and a new engine. He basically wanted Audi with a Mazda badge on the car.

It was his idea to use the Lola. Plans were in place to update and redesign the Courage chassis to accept a naturally aspirated 4 rotor. Everything would have been redesigned and done how it should have been to begin with. That would have been cool. It was projected to cost the team around $200,000 to get this done. There was a complaint that this was too expensive so instead they dumped over $7 Million(!) into a new platform and engine package agreement and reliabilty has gone down. What a great investment that was! They did better when they were slower. At least they finished more races! Hasselgrove was canned but it was only after the change had occurred. Things could have been very different right now if not for him.

That's the basic story. I know I probably have some details left out but that's the short of it. Rotary Crazy knows where this info comes from as it was a person on the team but I'm not naming them here.

rotary crazy

jajajaja

AggieLuke

****, now that you've told I kinda wish you hadn't. The possibility of a 4 rotor running in the ALMS?!?! Mother bitch!

If I ever meet Marcus, I might have to kick him in the junk and run! :P

Not sure if I mentioned it before, but when at Petit Le Mans, I did see a couple of gentlemen from Oreca/Courage having some deep discussions with the Mazda folks (though they appeared to be brokered by the AER folks)... maybe a new chassis is being considered? Maybe with the right engine?

I know it won't happen, but a man can dream, can't he?

rotarygod

Actually Mazda/AER are trying to sell their engine to other race teams so their presence doesn't surprise me. They'll never sell a single one with it's current track record though.

Renesis_8

Oh.. my.. goodness
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Glass pipe

apc_monk

So close to probably having a competitive well thought out car. Thanks for filling us in though.

rotary crazy

I think mazda should go back to rotary power, they should have made it with the courage, they should do it with the lola

The AER package its not and will not be competitive

rotarygod

Since we know Mazda isn't going to change cars again right now, it's pretty safe to say that they are busy working on it as we speak getting it ready for next season. I feel that if they go 3 or 4 races into 2008 and still have issues, they need to throw in the towel and sell the engine to recoup some of their losses. Then go back to rotary people who have won with these engines and try it again properly. Put rotary people in charge. I want to see an engine builder design the car with input from the drivers. I don't want to see some overpaid manager in charge who only cares about politics. Mazda finished 3 races last season with the Courage. These were the only 3 races that Carlos Lopez was a part of.

The Courage was at MNAO last month. The engine was on the dyno at Racing Beat. The car is going to run again with rotary power on a race track but not as a race car. It will be a traveling exhibition. The new engine is dressed up really pretty too. It's going to look like a show worthy Courage in terms of detail rather than an industrial to the point race car.

I asked Jim Mederer about the engine. He wouldn't tell me much but I did ask him one question since he didn't build the one that came out of the car. I'm not sure who did. I asked him if there was anything in it that he would have done different. He said "yes" and then left it at that. I wish he'd have gone into more detail. There are a handful of VERY smart U.S. based rotary builders out there who have the ability to build a winning engine. Carlos Lopez, Rick Engman, and Jim Mederer are 3 that come to mind. Marcus Hasselgrove killed relations in some ways. Now that he is gone, I'll bet they could get help from these guys again. At least in some form.

Since the DISI engine hasn't been all that it's supposed to be, I say keep the Lola but throw a rotary back into it and do it properly. It could win.

apc_monk

If they decide to switch back to rotary power, are they going to run into packaging problems again with the Lola?

AggieLuke

I like your optimism, RG. And would you have any details on the "tour" the rotaryCourage will be going on? Wouldn't mind finding my way to one of those events...

In regards to my earlier comments on the Oreca (who now own Courage) boys chilling with Mazda at PLM: From what I could hear, things seemed to be in a "feeling out" phase of talks. I know that Oreca had a big hand in the 91 LeMans win, maybe there's some history (specially with rotary power) that would be worth digging up....

In regards to Mazda selling engines for Orecourage P2 chassis in Europe, does anybody know if Oreca is wanting to move from GT1 (where they kicked massive *** as the only legitimate team running Saleen S7Rs) to P2? I guess it makes sense with Puegot (don't even care about spelling) dominating P1 and Audi rumored to be bringing a couple R10s to fight them next year....

K, I'm done rambling. Still think Mazda has more to gain running a rotary VS being an also-ran in P2.

Renesis_8

The bean counters are probably pushing to end this program right now. I hope they produce some results with the 4banger next year, cause if they don't, lets not think about the rotary, the whole ALMS program might be gone.

I do wish to see a rotary Lola tho... If they decides to do that, I might have to make the trip to watch a race. (I am from Canada!)
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1CherryLady

AggieLuke

Canada-schmanada! You have Mosport. Always top 3 in attendance. I'd love to make that race!

And about the Lola love, other than Le Mans P2 wins recently (which is really just sit in the garage and wait for every other car to die) what have they done? Acura had anyone to choose for the starting point of their "works" chassis and they chose Courage.

But I'd love to see a clean chassis (not cobbled together bits) with a rotary in it.

rotary crazy

one thing that really bugs me its that all gets blame on the engine, the other team that was fielding a courage chassis in 2005 had AER power and they where only 2 to 3 seconds faster than the mazda, I think the 150 to 200 lbs of over weight that the mazda was carying its more than the diference, they should have fix the over weigth problem! of course that would not get them to porche speed but another rotor would

Just look at all the problems the speedsource car had when they put more weight in, and that was only 55lbs, weight does not only affects your acceleration, it affects all aspects of the car, braking, turning, tire duration, fuel consumption, etc

there where so many things they could have done to the car, lose the weight, variable leght intake, 3erd spark plug,etc. ALL FOR LESS MONEY THAN WHAT WE HAVE TODAY

Im willing to put some money on the fact that a 20b equipep Lola would be just as fast as the car is today, AND IT WOULD FINISH RACES!!!!!!!

SO THE PROBLEM WAS NOT THE ENGINE!!!!!!!!

Renesis_8

With 7+++mil, they could field a supercharged 3-rotor and a NA 4-rotor both on Lola chassis.
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Magic Flight Vaporizer

rotary crazy

I think MNAO should get mazda Japan involve, get a 4 rotor lola going along side the piston one, or even the corage, im sure the results will be good

Dennis Spencer has another courage and a few 4 rotor engines im sure if its a new Team he would be involve