playdoh43

so did you guys buy ford stock like Zoom and I recommended? Im very happy at the result

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/10/25/q...es-still-rise/

saturn

The real question is, when are you going to sell it?

playdoh43

not quite sure, gotta research it first. definetly not too long hehe

bascho

Much ado about nothing. You guys are getting all excited about a figure that was completely expected by Ford. $5.8 billion sounds like a huge loss until you actually look at the breakdown of that figure. $5.3 billion of that is one-time charges for the restructuring plan and buy-outs. How did you think Ford was paying those 30,000 people to leave the company? So the actual operating loss for the 3Q was $300 million which sucks......but also expected as our new 2007 product doesn't hit the showrooms until 4Q 2006.

Not a single Ford executive expected anything less than a $5.8 billion loss in the 3Q.......so calm down. Ford isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

CarAndDriver

It's not about the loss, it's about Ford's weak product portfolio.

Japan8

That is about exactly what I was going to post... people haven't been going on about Ford losing money here so much as the product line is lackluster...

As much as I have been a Mustang and Ford guy... GM is looking to put out some much more interesting vehicles. The Sky Redline and Soltice GXP... Vette C6 and Z06... Caddie CTS-V... return of Holden RWD platform cars...

bascho

That product has been addressed. No company can start a new car from scratch in a years time.......it takes 3-4 years to launch a new car. It takes at least 2 years for a major change to an existing program. The media and public always expect instant change......but that is not possible when you are talking about complex machines.

Currently there are some weaknesses in the product......but what Ford sees as weakness and what the forum members of the world think are weaknesses are completely different. You want Ford to build the car of your dreams.....but that is impossible. No two people are the same so trying to get a car to have mass appeal means compromises. The weakness at Ford is not the absence of a manual tranny in the Fusion.......it's poor sales of dog products like the Freestar.

If you look at the sales figures of different vehicle segments, you'll see that very few people actually buy highest horsepowered Charger or Magnum.......or Camry......or Jeep. Ford does not offer the most horsepower in any given segment (there are exceptions), however, it does offer the power that people actually buy.

Say what you want about the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr......they are selling well and getting a lot of great press. The Edge/MKX are going to be the same story. The 2008 Five Hundred/Montego/Freestyle are huge improvements to products that are already seen as a success. The Mustang is a huge success over the last gen. All SUV sales are down....but so what, Ford is still the segment leader and will remain so with strong product. Trucks.......fogetaboutit!! Have you seen the 2008 Superduty? That is a truck!!!

You talk about weakness in product......what segments? B-cars? How many you will actually be looking at B-cars this spring?

rodrigo67

Ford's weak spot is thier cars. They are not actually bad, but they don't stand out in any catagory.

When you think of quality, what cars do you think of?

How about bang for the buck?

how about that connected to the road feeling, reliability, awesome looks, luxury, or how about a sports car (which ford doesn't have a single sprots car). How about waranty and a company that stands behind thier cars. Does anyone ever think of a Ford as the first thought in any of these.

Even Kia and hyundai stand by thier products for longer, Honda and toyota have the reliability market (wether they deserve it or not), mazda's handle better, chrysler makes more unique looking cars, and there's no way ford will compete with lexus and infinity on lux.

There are cheaper cars and better made cars then Fords, so they have to stand out somewhere, but at the moment not one single car they make stands out, with the exception of the mustang and then only in GT garb.

bascho

I disagree that Ford's weakness is their cars......I think that WAS their weakness. We can't dwell on the past and 2006 models are the past in this business. Our product going forward (2007MY and beyond) looks great and is very competitive. No company can take the "quality hat" away from Toyota in a single model year. Hyundai/Kia had to give a 10-year warranty to sell product. As their product gets more robust and they sell in the volume that Ford sells, I guarantee they drop that coverage. Ford doesn't need a sports car under the Ford brand because Mazda makes/sells sports cars. The sports car market is small enough as it is without Ford cannibalizing Mazda sales just to have a vehicle in every segment.
Remember, Mazda sales are Ford sales......Ford wants Mazda to do well.

Ford and GM will never go back to having 50%+ of the US market......and that is ok. Ford and GM are in trouble because they took too many years to right-size their business for the current industry. No company will be able to have a product in every segment anymore because no company can have enough market share to pay for it. Each company needs to focus on a core business and offer the best product they can in that segment. Everyone knows the Ford is a truck business and will continue to be one. Dropping the 30,000 extra people getting paid on a daily basis will help our bottom-line tenfold.

The cars Ford does make will be great product going forward. No more crap product for the sake of having a product in the segment. Does Toyota offer a midsized sedan with AWD for under $30K? Does Nissan or Honda? How about full-sized sedans? I think Ford has some product out right now and in the future offering a value that will be hard to pass up.

DrDiaboloco

One major weakness will be addressed when they literally address the weakness under the hood in the car lines with the 3.5L engine. The mid-size to upper mid-size cars are good cars that will be even more competitive with more juice (the 500, especially, needs it).

Since you axed about weakness, the present Focus offering is weak. With minor changes to the parts you can see, it's effectively the same car that was available in the 1990's. No excuse for their not brining over the new car will ever make sense... Honda has already run completely through a model cycle with the Civic in the same period of time (the Focus has competed head-to-head with THREE DIFFERENT CIVICS), and that's only ONE competitor.

You also say that the problem with Ford is not the lack of a manual in the Fusion... And on the surface, that's true. The problem with Ford is that their products seem to lack excitement, and the buzz on their cars just isn't there. I know I'm only one person and what I demand in a new car isn't necessarily the same as everyone else, and maybe their marketing gurus are smarter than I am, but they don't have a mainstream car that I want to buy. And again, I am predisposed to liking the blue oval products over most others... And if I had to buy a car TODAY, in the segment(s) that I would shop, I wouldn't look on my local Ford lot. Take me and multiply me by many millions, and you have the problem that Ford is presently experiencing.

bascho

The Duratech 35 is really going to impress everyone in this industry. It is every bit as good as the best V6's made by anyone. It will certainly address the issues with the Five Hundred/Montego/Freestyle being under powered for the segment. Also, the bland styling of the 2005-2007 is also being addressed.

The Focus sold in Europe is far too expensive to sell here in the states. Ford needs the Focus to sell in the $15K-$19K range beneath the Fusion. The Focus sold in Europe would be the exact same price as the Fusion in the $19K-$23K range. The Fusion sold here in the states is exactly what happens when you pull $3-4K out of the Euro Focus. Personally I would love to see the Euro Focus driving around the streets of the US.......but I would never buy one.

You belong to a car forum.....so you do not represent the average car buyer. You and I appreciate shifting gears and the complexity of modern engines and the way the light hits a perfectly executed bodyline. We are not average joes nor can we speak for them. You ask about excitement and I agree, Ford needs some.......but Toyota is the least exciting company with the least exciting products and they are the undisputed leader of this industry. Their market cap is $115 billion folks.......based off the most boring product in the market.

What's the #1 favorite ice cream flavor of the USA? Vanilla. That tells you something right there.

playdoh43

cars aimed to please the auto enthusiast usually sells very low volume. if ford or any company listens to you, they are probably going to do a lot worse :p

bascho

And cars selling in low volume are typically keeping the company in the red.

CarAndDriver

Rah rah Ford. Okay we get it Blue Oval cheerleader, but really stop fooling yourself. I like Ford and I hope they succeed, but they have a lot of underwhelming vehicles that you conveniently fail to mention.

Let me bring the disasters up:

Lincoln LS: old, underpowered, stale and the replacement being shopped at the cars shows doesn't look that much better.

Lincoln Navigator: retro gone too far--from an overwrought exterior to an interior that sacrifices function to outdated form.

Lincoln Zephyr: does nothing to entice import or young upwardly mobile buyers to Lincoln. Derivative exterior and awkward interior.

Lincoln Aviator: dropped b/c Lincoln couldn't even develop a decent entry-level luxury SUV along the lines of an FX, MDX, X3, RX, etc.

Lincoln Town Car: the only thing luxurious about this car is that most likely you are in the backseat being driven to or from the airport.

Lincoln MARK LT: who are they fooling? That thing is a barely warmed over F150. Cadillac does a better job of badge engineering than Lincoln.

Ford Crown Victoria: put that thing out to pasture. The Charger police vehicle being shown eats the Vic for breakfast, lunch and dinner with the V6 and not even the Hemi. Slow, ponderous, gas guzzling and space inefficient. Thank God for fleet sales and Hertz.

Ford Explorer: recently updated and back of the pack. Uninspired exterior and interior. I think this redesign is behind the outgoing Honda Pilot. Dropped their lead and never recovered from bungled Firestone tire debacle.

Ford Freestar: dropped b/c Ford gave up on minivans due to Japanese competition. Couldn't take the heat.

Ford Focus: rental car image. Looks almost the same as it did when it came out. The performance models have been dropped and not replaced. Even Chevy brought out a Cobalt SS that is pretty good.

Ford Escape: stale like last week's bread. RAV4, CR-V, and Santa Fe blow it away.

Ford Ranger: ancient. Possibly the worst compact/midsize pickup on the market along with GM's offerings, but at least they were redesigned.

The only true homerun successes Ford has had lately are the Mustang and F150. The Fusion is not a homerun but successful nevertheless, but with obvious need of improvement in the engine and interior.

DrDiaboloco

The Euro Focus shares its platform with the Mazda3. This "Euro" Focus is sold basically everywhere in the world but in the USA.

The Mazda3 starts at well under $15k. There is no reason that Ford couldn't do the same.

What the Fusion has to do with this I can only guess at, since the Fusion shares a platform with the 6, not the 3. You've got some fancy footwork ahead of you if you hope to explain how Mazda can happily (and profitably) sell the 3 and 6 alongside each other, while Ford can't somehow sell the 2nd Gen Focus alongside the Fusion. If anything, Ford would have an easier time doing this, since the Fusion's slightly longer wheelbase as compared to the 6 means that the size difference between the products on the same lot would be even greater.

playdoh43

first of all, i hope you know that, bascho works for ford. ( i think hehe) so a little bit of fanboyism is not that out of line. on the other hand, there is a conscious change in Fords products lately that shows they are trying hard to improve in the right direction. its not easy to catch up to the japanese over night

CarAndDriver

The Japanese and Koreans are working all through the night to make further inroads into the US and global markets and they are succeeding despite US automaker improvements.

Ford and GM are crippled by obligations, bureaucracy, and bean counters that have grown and stifled creativity in their respective organizations.

I have no doubt that GM and Ford have engineers and designers that can compete with the best from Europe and Japan, but unfortunately I think their efforts have mostly been squashed by their own coworkers.

Things do seem to be changing, but whether they are fast enough to stem the tide of red ink remains to be seen.

Japan8

Others have hit on the problem... with exception to the Mustang, trucks and Ford GT... nothing in the Ford lineup is special. They aren't the most luxurious, cheapest, faster, most reliable...nothing. And that's really the problem. It stinks of building by MBA... building a car not by car guys, people who love cars, but instead building by the numbers... just this time instead of bean counters it's the MBA know nothings "market research". Sure it'll build a car that won't fail... but it won't build a car that'll be a big success either.

Sure... beating out the Japanese competition won't happen overnight, but then again when the first gen Taurus hit the market... it came from nowhere to be a big success.

The lack of manual in the Fusion isn't killing its sales, but the point has always been that it does affect its sales and for no good reason. If the freaking Mazda6... its platform mate (which will have the same longer chassis in the next gen)... offers a MT, there is not a single good reason why Ford can't and shouldn't. I'll put it a different way... if I was shopping for a mid-size sedan under $30k... the Fusion wouldn't be on my list. The Altima has a better interior and more power... even if the new 3.5L is putting out 270hp... AND... the Altima can be had with a MT. The Mazda6... it's getting long in the tooth, but it's interior is still preferrable to the Fusion, the 5 door has some nice lines and more utility and it can be had with a MT. Toyota... Zzz... Honda... bleah... I think I threw up in my mouth. AWD? Ok... WRX is a bit smaller, but it has a superior AWD system and solid performance... and a MT. The Legacy has a superior AWD and excellent performance in the GT. The Mazdaspeed6 has soild performance, better interior and a MT. So I ask again... why would I buy a Fusion?

I'm not the Fusion's customer? Maybe not... but my mother is... who currently drives an Altima. She likes the Altima's styling inside and out. She doesn't drive stick, so that doesn't matter... and neither does power because she often skips the V6 (her past Camry was also a four-banger). She'd consider a Mazda6 though... but she wouldn't get a Fusion. Everything about it is just "OK" for her... and like I started out saying... that is exactly what's wrong with the car... it's just OK... nothing special.

The Focus... DrDiaboloco hit the nail on the head... if Mazda can sell both its platform mate the Mazda3 and the Mazda6 in the US... and at the same target price Ford has for the Focus... it sure as hell seems odd that Ford is unable to move the Focus to the 2nd gen platform and still keep pricing in line for the US.

As far as Toyota's dominace goes... I'd chalk that up to two things... reputation at this point in time and... the fact that their cars are actually still reliable. Going forward... who knows what may happen, but on the surface they seem to be heading down the path that US automakers had in the past. They rest heavily on their laurels and build dull cars... at least they are keeping their quality up... for the moment. But at the same time... even they somewhat acknowledge the need to add some more spice to their lineup... thus the more sporty new Camry, much improved IS and GS for Lexus...hell the initial introduction of the IS to the US to compete better for lux sports sedans. Only time will tell though in the end...

bascho

"Lincoln LS: old, underpowered, stale and the replacement being shopped at the cars shows doesn't look that much better."

Lincoln LS was killed......I admit Ford let the LS die without a fight. But that is in the past.....remember, Ford can't do anything about past products.....only future ones. The MKS is not a replacement other than size......they are completely different animals. Test drive one before you bash it (you'll have to wait till the fall of 2008 to do so).

"Lincoln Navigator: retro gone too far--from an overwrought exterior to an interior that sacrifices function to outdated form."

I am not a big luxury SUV person......but those that are seem to love the redesigned 'gator.

"Lincoln Zephyr: does nothing to entice import or young upwardly mobile buyers to Lincoln. Derivative exterior and awkward interior."

The Zephyr has a 63% conquest rate on foreign brands......meaning 63% of the people buying a Zephyr traded-in a foreign car. I would say that you are quite wrong on this one.

"Lincoln Aviator: dropped b/c Lincoln couldn't even develop a decent entry-level luxury SUV along the lines of an FX, MDX, X3, RX, etc."

Aviator was killed and the MKX takes it's place. The MKX is every bit as nice as the SUV/CUV's you've mentioned.

"Lincoln Town Car: the only thing luxurious about this car is that most likely you are in the backseat being driven to or from the airport."

This one is on the chopping block.....can't tell you what is taking it's place though....that information has not been released through any media yet.

"Lincoln MARK LT: who are they fooling? That thing is a barely warmed over F150. Cadillac does a better job of badge engineering than Lincoln."

I hate this truck.......but I also hate Pimp my Ride. Luckily this doesn't cost Ford very much to produce as it shares parts with both the 'gator and F150.

"Ford Crown Victoria: put that thing out to pasture. The Charger police vehicle being shown eats the Vic for breakfast, lunch and dinner with the V6 and not even the Hemi. Slow, ponderous, gas guzzling and space inefficient. Thank God for fleet sales and Hertz."

This is also on the chopping block for everything but fleet sales. The Charger makes a very handsome police car.......but Police depts like a proven history in the field. I've never sat in the back of a Charger.....what kind of taxi will they make?

"Ford Explorer: recently updated and back of the pack. Uninspired exterior and interior. I think this redesign is behind the outgoing Honda Pilot. Dropped their lead and never recovered from bungled Firestone tire debacle."

Best selling midsized SUV still to this day. Show me a link to some data regarding a year the Explorer was not the best seller. Sales tell the story.....not your subjective opinions of appearance.

"Ford Freestar: dropped b/c Ford gave up on minivans due to Japanese competition. Couldn't take the heat."

Dropped because Ford never really liked this segment and it shows. Ford will be changing the entire market with it's replacement for the Freestar.......just like we have with the Explorer and Taurus.

"Ford Focus: rental car image. Looks almost the same as it did when it came out. The performance models have been dropped and not replaced. Even Chevy brought out a Cobalt SS that is pretty good."

Yes......it's looks cheap. Guess why? It is. How much is a Colbalt SS again?....$24K.

"Ford Escape: stale like last week's bread. RAV4, CR-V, and Santa Fe blow it away."

I am pretty sure the Escape is still the market sales leader. I'll check.

"Ford Ranger: ancient. Possibly the worst compact/midsize pickup on the market along with GM's offerings, but at least they were redesigned."

It's practically the only true small p/u left in the market. And, I think it's still the market sales leader. I will check that one also.

bascho

The Euro Fusion is built on the Volvo S40 platform......don't give Mazda more credit than they deserve. A lot of the assembly for the Euro Focus is automated. That automation could not be used in the USA because of the union. Huge portions of the suspension, steering & drivetrain had to be redesigned for "human assembly". In a perfect world Ford could bring Aussie products and Euro products here to the states without penality. This is not a perfect world.

The sales of the 6 have dropped since the release of the 3......don't think that having comparable vehicles in the same price range doesn't cannibalize your own product. The next gen 6 is going to be a larger car because of this.

playdoh43

good god we are getting some great american novels in this thread

mac11

iTrader: (1)

this thread is as exciting to read as a ford is to drive...

bascho

Yes, I work for Ford.....and if this thread had been less negative I would have given my own criticism of Ford. But since the thread has been about bashing Ford I felt that I needed to defend the company.

I agree that Ford is moving in the right direction......even if I am the only one here that thinks so.

bascho

Japan8, you know that peronally I agree with you and we often have the same desires in an automobile. I would love to have a manual trans in the Fusion.....it would only enhance the experience for me. Why? Because I prefer a stick to an auto. Unfortunately too many ******' Americans are lazy bastards that think shifting is too much work......or that it takes away from their eating fast food.....or talking on the phone. I can't blame Ford for wanting to build cars with mass appeal to bring the company back to profitability. Ford has taken some chances in the past and got burned. It was fine when the company was profitable......but that's a risk they cannot afford right now. Toyota has shown everyone that the way to profitability is high quality, boring *** cars that appeal to the masses.

Ford has a few "white-sheet" product slots available pending the companies turn-around. Divisions like SVT are just on the back burner right now......not dead. Give Ford a couple of years to adjust to the new market and reload.

CarAndDriver

According to 2005 sales numbers found via Google:

Ford Ranger: #3 in sales. Toyota Tacoma #1 and Chevy Colorado #2.

Ford Explorer: #2 in sales. Chevy Trailblazer #1.

Ford Escape: #1 in sales. Correct about that one.

Ford Freestar: I think it is sad that they just basically gave up, regardless of enthusiasm. Chalk a victory to the Japanese in that segment. Chrysler really is the only on American maker with a fighting chance to duke it out unless GM surprises me with something amazing. Their minivans are far worse than the Freestar ever was.

Chevy Cobalt SS: starts out at $19.9K MSRP not $24K.

I will agree that the Fusion didn't and doesn't really need to have a manual. I think that money is better spent on improving other aspects of the car like the new and promising 3.5 V6. So very few people buy manuals anymore that I think they will only be found in sports sedans and coupes soon enough. And eventually probably the way of the dinosaur as the clutchless manumatic technology gets better and cheaper.

I hope you don't take this as "I hate Ford." In fact, I hope Ford succeeds. I just think they have a lot to tackle and a limited budget and they have a generally weak product portfolio to fall back on while they get new products out. I hope they pick and choose their targets carefully for success and turnaround.