bascho

No need to supply a free car. The employee discount is enough of a reason...believe me. I have a 2005 Shinka with appearance and rotory accent that I got in August of 2005 for $28K out the door. The sticker was $34K. Now, I know that the 2005's are selling even lower now....but a Shinka for $28K in August was a great deal....and that was because of employee discount.

bascho

I know you asked Japan8, but I am going to respond. Does buying a Ford car built in Mexico save jobs in the US....actually, YES. Here is why, if the Fusion sells like 'gang-busters', then Ford will need to expand capacity to build a larger # of Fusions. This expansion would be in the US as that is where Ford has excess capacity.

Never

sti_eric

Well, I guess your zeal for the company you work for is good, but you couldn't be more wrong. According to Ford's press release on 2005 US Car Sales (http://media.ford.com/newsroom/relea...?release=22189), they only sold 108K Five Hundreds and 17K Fusions. Hardly overwhelming support from the buying public. When you take into account that first year sales are typically much higher than subsequent years, I don't see anything good for Ford in the near future. Do you think these boring new Fords will be able to put any kind of dent in Camry (431K) or Corolla (341K) sales?

Japan8

bascho answered the question for me. Thanks.

Yes the car situation is the same as Coke v Pepsi and moreso in the case of Microsoft and Symantec. I actually work at these fortunte 500 technology companies and I'm TELLING you that this is how it is. No speculation, hearsay or whatever. This is fact. They extensively use their own products and their employees also use the products. No one is forcing you to use them, but you'd be stupid not to. You can either get them free or discounted and more importantly you have to deal with the products in your job. The best way to know them... strengths and weakness... is to use them. How can you help Ford to make a better car when you have never owned a recent offering? You gotta own/use something to be able to know its strengths and weaknesses... Lastly... it's just a team/corporate image thing... driving a Honda Accord when you work for Ford is rude. When your job gets cut because the company lost a billion dollars... I hoep you're the first to go... how are you helping the team by buying the competition? Drive whatever you want? Go ahead... just don't expect anyone to consider you a "team player" either.

sti_eric

How is the guy who bolts on the transmission (for example) going to learn any more about his job by driving a Ford? It just doesn't make sense. My company manufactures flight controls and engine controls for various aircraft. Will I be able to do my job any better if my company says that I can only fly on planes that use my company's equipment?

This is probably true. However, why shouldn't someone be allowed to drive an STi, Evo, MBs, BMWs, Porsches, etc. Ford doesn't make any vehicles in the same class as these.

Ford should be able to operate because it makes good products that people WANT to own, not because the company forces its employees/suppliers to drive their vehicles. This is a market economy. People should be purchasing the vehicles that are the best for them, not the vehicles that someone else tells them to buy. I believe that this has contributed to some of the domestic's problems. For a long time, there were too many domestic leghumpers who refused to buy foreign cars. So, the big 3 continued to pump out crap because they knew there were idiots who would buy their inferior vehicles. Now, these people are starting to turn around and buy the best car for them, which, in a lot of cases, is a foreign car, causing domestic sales to plummet.

bascho

Eric,

A lot of what you say is true. But you are blowing the parking lot thing out of proportion. If Ford mandated a change to all parking lots at all it's facilities, then yes that would be extremely unfair. I agree that if your favorite car is an EVO or STi and you live in the US, obviously Ford-family brands do not offer the car for you....and that is ok. No single company can build a car for everyone's wants and needs.....which is why their are over 200 brands sold thoughout the world. But how can someone who just bought a Mercedes C230 honestly say that Jaguar did not fill their need? There are always examples of niche automobiles that cannot be met with your companies offerings....but that is not the problem. There are tons of Jeep Wranglers in our parking lot.....not one of them ever gets **** about it.....why, because Ford doesn't offer anything like it. I am sure you will see the same thing happen at Toyota, they don't offer anything like the Corvette.....but do you think a Toyota exec can pull up in a new Vette and not get looks from his peers. How many of you work in a business that is as competitive as the auto industry? Remember, there are over 200 brands sold in world.....does your company have 200 competitors?

And those that feel it is ok to work for a company that makes a certain product.....I hope you also feel that they have no right to complain if their job is lost do to downsizing based on decreased market share. If you depend on Ford to feed, shelter and cloth your family.....why would you not buy their products to ensure you keep that job. What is more important, you having a EVO or feeding your 8 month old daughter? And if you feel that compromise is too difficult, then why not go get a job at Mitsubishi? oh....probably because they don't offer any jobs in the US.

sti_eric

Hey, I couldn't care less about this mandate from Ford. In fact, it is probably a good idea. I was just arguing against some of the logic that is being thrown as reasons why this mandate came out. I think if Ford is going to offer you this benefit that is worth thousands and thousands of dollars, you should probably take them up on it (ie employee pricing on vehicles). However, people like myself get some enjoyment out of driving, especially driving a well balanced, exciting car. Outside of some of the Mazdas, Ford just doesn't have anything exciting to offer.

Japan8

He can see the transmission in action. Maybe from there he notices things during assembly that may be related to NVH or such problems he has noticed when driving the car. Pretty simple.


Whoever said life was fair? Don't like it? Go work for Honda or Porsche instead.

And the employee purchases alone are going to make or break Ford's sales?

sti_eric

Riiiight, cause that's how things work. Some schmoe off the assembly line walks into the chief engineer's office and says, "Hey, since I've been driving my new Fusion, I have found a design flaw in the transmission that all the design and test engineers must have missed."

That could go either way. Then why bother making them drive only Ford vehicles?

Japan8

And you just proved you don't know ****. THAT is how it's done at Toyota for fact.

See earlier post... corporate image, morality and also to make your employees better aware of what the company makes... what's good and bad about them. Stuff like that.

sti_eric

Reference?

sharward

It's called TQM. But if you follow the link, you'll see that Ford has also implemented this program (supposedly...?).

BunnyGirl

[QUOTE=Japan8]And you just proved you don't know ****. THAT is how it's done at Toyota for fact.


I was reading about Toyota awhile back and the article said that if someone came up with an idea on how to improve something, make it better, faster, more efficient, carwise or work production wise, everyone on that worker's line got a bonus for helping their company by pointing out a potential problem. They reward them for this. They have a "suggestions box" kind of thing where employees can leave this info for them and people do go through and read them regularly and if there is need for clarification on something they will talk to the employee about their concerns.

Japan8

Um sti_eric there you go. Sorry to be an ***, but... you may now remove foot from mouth. Two other people have not only posted to confirm what I said, but one even gave you a link.

Game. Set. Match.

sti_eric

Nobody has posted anything showing that assembly line workers drive vehicles around and report engineering design defects to the engineering team.

The article posted by sharward is about Six Sigma. I know all about Six Sigma. My company uses it. It is about process improvement, not about assemblers figuring out manufacturing or engineering problems by driving a car around.

BunnyGirl posted about a suggestion box. My company has these, too. If, as an assembler or an engineer, you discover a better way to do your job, then you bring it up to your immediate superior.

There is no way an assembly line worker will figure out a better way to do his job by driving a car around. He will figure out that out by doing his job repeatedly.

Logic > you
Please show me where a toyota (or any manufacturing line worker) can improve his process by driving a car.

Japan8

All Toyota employees in Japan (and proably the US) drive Toyotas.

but that's another story.

This is really getting off track. I didn't originally even really mean that by driving the car they can do engineer type stuff and directly suggest product improvements on their assembly line based upon that. Rather they can support the company they work for... own at least one car from them. Know the car. They build the damn things all day and they have never even driven one? That's sound pretty stupid to me. And if it sucks... well as they say for all consumers... "let Ford know". I don't work for Ford. Ford may have addition focus group/"let Ford know" type things internally as well. If I ran marketing and/or product development... I know I would.

Hornet

I just had this thought that relates to the buying what you build thing! Maybe I am wrong but...if you work for a company (Ford) and get paid by that company then what sense does it make to put your paycheck back into that company besides keeping them afloat! It would seem to me that unless you are buying a new model more frequently that the money is just going right back into your pocket (of course that would be over an extended period of time) and not really helping or hurting the company besides saying they moved this many vehicles this year. Ford's profit has to come from outside the company not from inside! Think of it this way, if only Ford employees purchased Ford vehicles then the company would more than likely slowly die...the reason would be they would be paying the buyer back the money and also buying materials to produce the vehicle and basically all they would be doing is sending money out! Buying your own product is just treading water and can be offset by increasing sales outside the company!

Japan8

^^ the point isn't to help sales. Not really. It's more of a coporate image, "team player" and just plain old... if you work there and think the prodcuts are crap... why are you still there? Sure you can't change the company... big companies and especially big, OLD companies move like glaciers and are FULL of red tape. But damn it... shouldn't people be TRYING to take pride in their work? Or maybe that is part of what the problem really is...

Hornet

That response I gave was more to the idea that someone would be taking food out of their own baby's mouth by not buying what they build.

The twist to the whole logic of "if you think the products are crap" thing is that not everyone works there out of choice! There are people (and I mean a lot of people) who work places purely in the interest of keeping a roof over their head and food on the table. Jobs are not always about liking what you build, sell, etc...the very core of it is survival. Everyone is not well off enough to say well I don't like Fords so I will just not work there or I will work for less with less benefits at McDonalds! I have a family member that made some mistakes earlier in his life and he is trying to make an honest living. The jobs that are open to him are not the best jobs in the world but he has a wife and children to feed. He is working on becoming a truck driver...why, because it will provide for a better quality of life for his family than McDonalds!

The pride thing is another thing as well. Honestly, I don't take pride in everything I have to do but I do it to the best of my ability as I am sure many others do in the interest of keeping their job and advancing!

Indy8

For me, the bottom line of this whole discussion is about principle. If you want to give me incentive for buying a product from the company I work for, great - this is the way it should be. If you want to penalize me for NOT buying it, then you can get screwed, because this is simply wrong, regardless of who has done it in the past..

I LOVE the company I work for, which is a homebuilder, and I did buy a house from them. If they wanted to penalize me in ANY way for buying from another builder, I would be totally pissed. It doesn't matter if I can get the same product, or even a better product from my company for the same or better price. It's absurd to limit my choices, IN ANY WAY, by penalizing me for buying another builder's house.

I am tired of hearing about how minor the penalty is, or how it only affects certian people. Bullshit. It's still wrong.

Japan8

You whine about a "penalty" of having to park across the street where 85% of people do already... and oh ****.. you just happened to have been parking there all along.

Don't think of it as a penalty. That is just media drama. This is a reward... an incentive to buy from the Ford family. Just like getting an employee discount. You can make the discount out to be a "penalty" too... "Ford is trying to force me or coerce me into buy Ford, when I like HOnda and Honda cars are better"... so what... to be "fair" and "equal" Ford should give employees discounts on any and all cars they buy? You work at Ford. Expect Ford products to be discounted for you and other incentives for staying with company products.

SHOWOFF

It's no big deal.

The people that have to park across the street will just end up being the ones who make the lunchtime beer run so no one has to lose their buzz while they're on the line. It's pretty sad that right across the street from most Ford plants there is a liquor store that would go under if the plant shut down.

globi

Talking about beer:
In the early nineties we visited BMW in Munich and to my very surprise they had a few empty beer bottles on the shelves of the assembly line. (The 'tour-guide' told us: This is Munich, you know.)

RotoRocket

iTrader: (1)

Yes, but they never intentionally placed an empty beer bottle inside the frame of a yet-to-be assembled vehicle, to rattle and roll much to the new owner's chagrin, because they were pissed off at a manager about something.

Indy8

Again, you are missing the point. If this negatively affects 1 person, it doesn't matter how much, it's still wrong.

EXAMPLE: I used to park in that lot one day a month, if I got there early. Now, I'm not allowed because I drive my granddaddy's old chevy to work. It's not about how much inconvenience this causes me, or if any at all. We call this discrimination here in America. This causes division among employees, and I agree with the crowd who finds this policy stupid.