Engine Sludge Problems Affecting Many Cars
02-04-2007, 08:53 PM
#1
Engine Sludge Problems Affecting Many Cars
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/au.../04SLUDGE.html
Engine Sludge: When Good Oil Goes Bad
By CHRISTOPHER JENSEN
Published: February 4, 2007
FOR people buying a used car, there is a very important but rarely checked factor to consider that goes beyond kicking the tires: original sin.
Some best-selling models appear to have an increased risk of serious mechanical problems, particularly if scheduled oil changes were not made during the vehicle’s formative years. The threat is the buildup of sludge — gooey tarlike deposits — that reduces or shuts off oil circulation and can mean thousands of dollars to repair or replace an engine that has seized.
Sludge is a thickening and breakdown of the oil as it deteriorates, as moisture and contaminants build up. This causes the oil to gel, resulting in excess wear as friction increases or, in extreme cases, a stop-right-now failure.
Worse, experts warn that there is no foolproof way subsequent owners of a trouble-prone vehicle can protect themselves. And if there is a problem caused by sludge, an automaker may reject a warranty claim because the new owner may not be able to prove that previous owners made the required oil changes.
Dean Tomazic, director for performance and emissions at FEV Engine Technology, a consulting firm in Auburn Hills, Mich., said the owner of a used car could conscientiously change the oil every 3,000 miles and still have a problem if the previous owner neglected the maintenance. The engine may be so damaged from the past abuse, he said, it could “eternally cause sludge formation.”
Thousands of owners of vehicles of popular brands like Chrysler, Dodge, Toyota, Lexus, Volkswagen, Audi and Saab have had sludge problems.
On Wednesday, a state judge in Louisiana is scheduled to give final approval to an out-of-court settlement of a class-action suit against Toyota covering 3.5 million vehicles. Under the settlement, Toyota will repair vehicles with sludge damage if owners can prove a reasonable effort at maintenance.
Chrysler has a serious sludge problem with the 2.7-liter V-6 engine used on some of its Concordes and Sebrings and also on some Dodge Intrepids and Stratus in the 1998-2002 model years, said Clarence M. Ditlow, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety. Mr. Ditlow said the center’s Web site (autosafety.org) had about 2,800 complaints of failures from sludge.
Sam Locricchio, a Chrysler spokesman, said the center was exaggerating the problem. He said the center received many duplicate complaints as well as cases in which it could not be shown that the vehicle had been properly maintained.
A lack of adequate oil changes is the explanation for damage given by Audi, Lexus, Saab, Toyota and VW. Yet unlike Chrysler and Dodge, those automakers have formal compensation programs for sludge damage, although in some cases consumers must provide detailed service records — and in the case of Saab, must have used oil filters sold only by the company.
Used-car owners are not alone in having sludge problems. The class-action suit brought against Toyota was started by Jeff Meckstroth of New Orleans.
Mr. Meckstroth was so impressed with the high marks earned by Lexus in quality studies by J. D. Power & Associates that he replaced a Mercedes-Benz with a new 1999 Lexus RX 300 sport wagon.
In October 2000, at about 42,000 miles, the engine failed because of a sludge problem. The RX 300 was still under warranty, and though Mr. Meckstroth had receipts showing he had made all the oil changes, Lexus refused to cover the $8,000 repair, asserting poor maintenance was to blame.
A Better Business Bureau arbitrator later ruled the car was properly maintained and that Lexus should repair it under warranty. But there were other expenses Lexus would not cover, and Mr. Meckstroth was angry about the way he was treated.
“Toyota knew they had a defect and didn’t want to admit it,” he said. “That’s when and why I sued.”
Toyota denied there was a problem with the engine. The company said the settlement was similar to a repair program it started in 2002 to fix engines damaged by sludge. But Gary G. Gambel, one of the New Orleans lawyers who brought the Toyota class-action suit, said the settlement went beyond the 2002 program by, among other things, reimbursing owners for the reduction in the vehicle’s value.
There is no national database on sludge. Still, problems seem to be increasing, said Mike Caruso, a technical specialist with the Automotive Engine Rebuilders Association, a trade group in Buffalo Grove, Ill.
Yet, given the millions of engines in the United States, the number of sludge-related failures is microscopic, said Robert J. Last, vice president of operations at FEV.
Consumer Reports magazine has said “the problem rate as reflected in our reliability data is very low.”
That is little consolation to owners who suddenly find themselves with a bill of $5,000 or more to replace an engine on a vehicle with only 60,000 miles, Mr. Ditlow said. He said that if poor maintenance alone were to blame, virtually every engine from every automaker would have a serious sludge problem. He finds it impossible to believe that maintenance scofflaws are all attracted to certain engines. The logical explanation is that poor maintenance affects some engines more than others, he said.
If the Toyota case had gone to trial, said Joseph M. Bruno, another lawyer representing the plaintiffs in the Toyota suit, expert witnesses would have asserted that the problem was related to design changes made by Toyota to meet emissions standards.
Toyota has denied any design problem with its engines. The proposed settlement (posted at oilgelsettlement.com) notes that it does not mean that “Toyota or Lexus vehicles are predisposed to develop oil gel.”
It is difficult to say why some engines would be more vulnerable than others, although regular oil changes would be more important with turbocharged engines, Mr. Last said. Engines with turbochargers are more highly stressed.
VW and Audi officials have noted that proper maintenance is crucial with the turbocharged 1.8-liter engine used in the 1998-2004 VW Passat and 1997-2004 Audi A4. VW also said that the 1.8-liter engine used in the New Beetle, Jetta and Audi TT was not as likely to have a problem because that engine contained more oil.
Oil capacity may also be a factor with Chrysler’s 2.7-liter V-6. The automaker decided to use a smaller oil sump so consumers could save on oil, giving the engine a five-quart capacity instead of six, a Chrysler engineer, Burke Brown, said in a 2005 interview with The Plain Dealer newspaper of Cleveland.
“In retrospect, that took away the margin,” Mr. Brown told the paper. “If you don’t change the oil on schedule, they don’t tolerate a lot of abuse in that regard,” he said, referring to the 2.7-liter V-6 engine.
What all this means to consumers looking for a used car is that they need to get the vehicle’s record of oil changes and other maintenance. Then, they need to make sure those records match up with the automaker’s requirements as listed in the owner’s manual.
But the automakers’ extended sludge warranties are still good for only eight years after the vehicle was first sold. So some experts said the smartest thing for consumers was just to stay away from engines with sludge reputations.
“It is almost like clogged arteries,” said Mr. Caruso of the engine rebuilders association. “You look good on the outside, but you don’t know what is on the inside.”
Engine Sludge: When Good Oil Goes Bad
By CHRISTOPHER JENSEN
Published: February 4, 2007
FOR people buying a used car, there is a very important but rarely checked factor to consider that goes beyond kicking the tires: original sin.
Some best-selling models appear to have an increased risk of serious mechanical problems, particularly if scheduled oil changes were not made during the vehicle’s formative years. The threat is the buildup of sludge — gooey tarlike deposits — that reduces or shuts off oil circulation and can mean thousands of dollars to repair or replace an engine that has seized.
Sludge is a thickening and breakdown of the oil as it deteriorates, as moisture and contaminants build up. This causes the oil to gel, resulting in excess wear as friction increases or, in extreme cases, a stop-right-now failure.
Worse, experts warn that there is no foolproof way subsequent owners of a trouble-prone vehicle can protect themselves. And if there is a problem caused by sludge, an automaker may reject a warranty claim because the new owner may not be able to prove that previous owners made the required oil changes.
Dean Tomazic, director for performance and emissions at FEV Engine Technology, a consulting firm in Auburn Hills, Mich., said the owner of a used car could conscientiously change the oil every 3,000 miles and still have a problem if the previous owner neglected the maintenance. The engine may be so damaged from the past abuse, he said, it could “eternally cause sludge formation.”
Thousands of owners of vehicles of popular brands like Chrysler, Dodge, Toyota, Lexus, Volkswagen, Audi and Saab have had sludge problems.
On Wednesday, a state judge in Louisiana is scheduled to give final approval to an out-of-court settlement of a class-action suit against Toyota covering 3.5 million vehicles. Under the settlement, Toyota will repair vehicles with sludge damage if owners can prove a reasonable effort at maintenance.
Chrysler has a serious sludge problem with the 2.7-liter V-6 engine used on some of its Concordes and Sebrings and also on some Dodge Intrepids and Stratus in the 1998-2002 model years, said Clarence M. Ditlow, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety. Mr. Ditlow said the center’s Web site (autosafety.org) had about 2,800 complaints of failures from sludge.
Sam Locricchio, a Chrysler spokesman, said the center was exaggerating the problem. He said the center received many duplicate complaints as well as cases in which it could not be shown that the vehicle had been properly maintained.
A lack of adequate oil changes is the explanation for damage given by Audi, Lexus, Saab, Toyota and VW. Yet unlike Chrysler and Dodge, those automakers have formal compensation programs for sludge damage, although in some cases consumers must provide detailed service records — and in the case of Saab, must have used oil filters sold only by the company.
Used-car owners are not alone in having sludge problems. The class-action suit brought against Toyota was started by Jeff Meckstroth of New Orleans.
Mr. Meckstroth was so impressed with the high marks earned by Lexus in quality studies by J. D. Power & Associates that he replaced a Mercedes-Benz with a new 1999 Lexus RX 300 sport wagon.
In October 2000, at about 42,000 miles, the engine failed because of a sludge problem. The RX 300 was still under warranty, and though Mr. Meckstroth had receipts showing he had made all the oil changes, Lexus refused to cover the $8,000 repair, asserting poor maintenance was to blame.
A Better Business Bureau arbitrator later ruled the car was properly maintained and that Lexus should repair it under warranty. But there were other expenses Lexus would not cover, and Mr. Meckstroth was angry about the way he was treated.
“Toyota knew they had a defect and didn’t want to admit it,” he said. “That’s when and why I sued.”
Toyota denied there was a problem with the engine. The company said the settlement was similar to a repair program it started in 2002 to fix engines damaged by sludge. But Gary G. Gambel, one of the New Orleans lawyers who brought the Toyota class-action suit, said the settlement went beyond the 2002 program by, among other things, reimbursing owners for the reduction in the vehicle’s value.
There is no national database on sludge. Still, problems seem to be increasing, said Mike Caruso, a technical specialist with the Automotive Engine Rebuilders Association, a trade group in Buffalo Grove, Ill.
Yet, given the millions of engines in the United States, the number of sludge-related failures is microscopic, said Robert J. Last, vice president of operations at FEV.
Consumer Reports magazine has said “the problem rate as reflected in our reliability data is very low.”
That is little consolation to owners who suddenly find themselves with a bill of $5,000 or more to replace an engine on a vehicle with only 60,000 miles, Mr. Ditlow said. He said that if poor maintenance alone were to blame, virtually every engine from every automaker would have a serious sludge problem. He finds it impossible to believe that maintenance scofflaws are all attracted to certain engines. The logical explanation is that poor maintenance affects some engines more than others, he said.
If the Toyota case had gone to trial, said Joseph M. Bruno, another lawyer representing the plaintiffs in the Toyota suit, expert witnesses would have asserted that the problem was related to design changes made by Toyota to meet emissions standards.
Toyota has denied any design problem with its engines. The proposed settlement (posted at oilgelsettlement.com) notes that it does not mean that “Toyota or Lexus vehicles are predisposed to develop oil gel.”
It is difficult to say why some engines would be more vulnerable than others, although regular oil changes would be more important with turbocharged engines, Mr. Last said. Engines with turbochargers are more highly stressed.
VW and Audi officials have noted that proper maintenance is crucial with the turbocharged 1.8-liter engine used in the 1998-2004 VW Passat and 1997-2004 Audi A4. VW also said that the 1.8-liter engine used in the New Beetle, Jetta and Audi TT was not as likely to have a problem because that engine contained more oil.
Oil capacity may also be a factor with Chrysler’s 2.7-liter V-6. The automaker decided to use a smaller oil sump so consumers could save on oil, giving the engine a five-quart capacity instead of six, a Chrysler engineer, Burke Brown, said in a 2005 interview with The Plain Dealer newspaper of Cleveland.
“In retrospect, that took away the margin,” Mr. Brown told the paper. “If you don’t change the oil on schedule, they don’t tolerate a lot of abuse in that regard,” he said, referring to the 2.7-liter V-6 engine.
What all this means to consumers looking for a used car is that they need to get the vehicle’s record of oil changes and other maintenance. Then, they need to make sure those records match up with the automaker’s requirements as listed in the owner’s manual.
But the automakers’ extended sludge warranties are still good for only eight years after the vehicle was first sold. So some experts said the smartest thing for consumers was just to stay away from engines with sludge reputations.
“It is almost like clogged arteries,” said Mr. Caruso of the engine rebuilders association. “You look good on the outside, but you don’t know what is on the inside.”
02-04-2007, 09:27 PM
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so is this the same stuff that we get from our engine with that white milky substance on the dipstick??? or something similar
edit: Sludge described in article
Sludge is a thickening and breakdown of the oil as it deteriorates, as moisture and contaminants build up. This causes the oil to gel, resulting in excess wear as friction increases or, in extreme cases, a stop-right-now failure.
edit: Sludge described in article
Sludge is a thickening and breakdown of the oil as it deteriorates, as moisture and contaminants build up. This causes the oil to gel, resulting in excess wear as friction increases or, in extreme cases, a stop-right-now failure.
Last edited by Punksux; 02-05-2007 at 09:51 PM.
02-06-2007, 01:47 AM
#4
Super Moderator
Originally Posted by Punksux
so is this the same stuff that we get from our engine with that white milky substance on the dipstick??? or something similar
edit: Sludge described in article
Sludge is a thickening and breakdown of the oil as it deteriorates, as moisture and contaminants build up. This causes the oil to gel, resulting in excess wear as friction increases or, in extreme cases, a stop-right-now failure.
edit: Sludge described in article
Sludge is a thickening and breakdown of the oil as it deteriorates, as moisture and contaminants build up. This causes the oil to gel, resulting in excess wear as friction increases or, in extreme cases, a stop-right-now failure.
I have never seen or heard of any rotary with a sludge problem, particularly when you consider a rotary consumes oil as part of its function.
So, if you maintain your oil levels with fresh (new) oil, you wont see any issue here.
I have never had a "Milky" dipstick.
02-06-2007, 02:53 PM
#6
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Off to the Doctor for you! 
Much depends on your environment and weather conditions/humidity as to whether or not your stick gets milky.
Much depends on your environment and weather conditions/humidity as to whether or not your stick gets milky.
02-06-2007, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by ASH8
If you are talking RX-8 and ALL rotaries for that matter, they all have the milky dipstick foam...it is not a fault nor will it cause any problems...once the engine is at normal temperature it goes away.
I have never seen or heard of any rotary with a sludge problem, particularly when you consider a rotary consumes oil as part of its function.
So, if you maintain your oil levels with fresh (new) oil, you wont see any issue here.
I have never seen or heard of any rotary with a sludge problem, particularly when you consider a rotary consumes oil as part of its function.
So, if you maintain your oil levels with fresh (new) oil, you wont see any issue here.
Cool, it was just in the way they described the sludge was similar being like the milky stuff.
02-06-2007, 07:13 PM
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Ian Wilkersons method of getting rid of sludge:
So stick with the same brand oil, for the whole life of the engine, and regular oil changes and avoid 5W30 and 10W40/10W50 oils as they tend to have a extrodinary amount of Long Chain Polymers to get the viscosity break they use; and you limit the possibility of sludge.
Originally Posted by posted on clublexus
1 Warm the car thoroughly, and drain off about 1ltr of the oil already in the car, replace with a good flushing oil.
2 Go for another good run.
3 Use the car for no more than 300 miles and always decent length runs.
4 After the last run drain all the oil, refill with entirely flushing oil, take her out for another good run, stopping at intervals taking the oil filler cap off and feeling if the sludge becomes less gelatinous and there is a distinctive smell, slightly 'petrolly' in nature.
5 Go home at this point, don't venture more than 20 miles from home, in other words; take a circuitous route until the desired effect is achieved.
6 Drain the oil OVERNIGHT in a warm garage.
7 Do a complete oil change.
8 Do not drive for 30 minutes after filling the car, and before driving check the oil level and top-up to the mark.
Over the next 3 oil changes all the sludge will disappear.
What is Sludge?
The oils we use are L.ong C.hain P.olymers, and they all deposit themselves on the surface of the metal, it is designed to be wiped off and replaced with other LCP's as the first ones break down. When a different oil is used it may not be able to remove the old LCP but will leave its own new LCP on top and the pollution just continues as one affects the other causing further build up.
2 Go for another good run.
3 Use the car for no more than 300 miles and always decent length runs.
4 After the last run drain all the oil, refill with entirely flushing oil, take her out for another good run, stopping at intervals taking the oil filler cap off and feeling if the sludge becomes less gelatinous and there is a distinctive smell, slightly 'petrolly' in nature.
5 Go home at this point, don't venture more than 20 miles from home, in other words; take a circuitous route until the desired effect is achieved.
6 Drain the oil OVERNIGHT in a warm garage.
7 Do a complete oil change.
8 Do not drive for 30 minutes after filling the car, and before driving check the oil level and top-up to the mark.
Over the next 3 oil changes all the sludge will disappear.
What is Sludge?
The oils we use are L.ong C.hain P.olymers, and they all deposit themselves on the surface of the metal, it is designed to be wiped off and replaced with other LCP's as the first ones break down. When a different oil is used it may not be able to remove the old LCP but will leave its own new LCP on top and the pollution just continues as one affects the other causing further build up.
02-06-2007, 08:18 PM
#11
Metatron
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Know it all......
I have no idea who Ian Wilkerson is, but he sounds like a real tool.
It also sounds like he made that up that whole thing, based on no science whatever.
Oils do not polymerize onto metal, many oils have no polymers, (especially synthetics) and a different oil will not "polymerize on top" of that - it's just fantasy, the only place it happens is in Ians mind......
Using different brands of oil has zero to do with sludge, when you boil the oil for a long time it becomes tar. When lots of condensation gets in the oil, is neutralized, then boiled off - you get nasty gummy deposits. Together they make the lumpy fudge known as sludge (read all about it at BobIsTheOilGuy.com).
"Flushing oil"......where did this come from? What kind of flushing oil? He don't say.... If you use anything other than motor oil (kerosine, solvent, dexron) you are begging for a seized motor. The suggestion to completely drain the oil and replace with this mystery fluid is nuts.
Don't drive more than 300 miles.....let the oil drain for OVERNIGHT......do not start the car for 30 minutes......all nutjob mumbo-jumbo.
What a load of crap.
S
It also sounds like he made that up that whole thing, based on no science whatever.
Oils do not polymerize onto metal, many oils have no polymers, (especially synthetics) and a different oil will not "polymerize on top" of that - it's just fantasy, the only place it happens is in Ians mind......
Using different brands of oil has zero to do with sludge, when you boil the oil for a long time it becomes tar. When lots of condensation gets in the oil, is neutralized, then boiled off - you get nasty gummy deposits. Together they make the lumpy fudge known as sludge (read all about it at BobIsTheOilGuy.com).
"Flushing oil"......where did this come from? What kind of flushing oil? He don't say.... If you use anything other than motor oil (kerosine, solvent, dexron) you are begging for a seized motor. The suggestion to completely drain the oil and replace with this mystery fluid is nuts.
Don't drive more than 300 miles.....let the oil drain for OVERNIGHT......do not start the car for 30 minutes......all nutjob mumbo-jumbo.
What a load of crap.
S
02-07-2007, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by StealthTL
I have no idea who Ian Wilkerson is, but he sounds like a real tool.
It also sounds like he made that up that whole thing, based on no science whatever.
Oils do not polymerize onto metal, many oils have no polymers, (especially synthetics) and a different oil will not "polymerize on top" of that - it's just fantasy, the only place it happens is in Ians mind......
Using different brands of oil has zero to do with sludge, when you boil the oil for a long time it becomes tar. When lots of condensation gets in the oil, is neutralized, then boiled off - you get nasty gummy deposits. Together they make the lumpy fudge known as sludge (read all about it at BobIsTheOilGuy.com).o
"Flushing oil"......where did this come from? What kind of flushing oil? He don't say.... If you use anything other than motor oil (kerosine, solvent, dexron) you are begging for a seized motor. The suggestion to completely drain the oil and replace with this mystery fluid is nuts.
Don't drive more than 300 miles.....let the oil drain for OVERNIGHT......do not start the car for 30 minutes......all nutjob mumbo-jumbo.
What a load of crap.
S
It also sounds like he made that up that whole thing, based on no science whatever.
Oils do not polymerize onto metal, many oils have no polymers, (especially synthetics) and a different oil will not "polymerize on top" of that - it's just fantasy, the only place it happens is in Ians mind......
Using different brands of oil has zero to do with sludge, when you boil the oil for a long time it becomes tar. When lots of condensation gets in the oil, is neutralized, then boiled off - you get nasty gummy deposits. Together they make the lumpy fudge known as sludge (read all about it at BobIsTheOilGuy.com).o
"Flushing oil"......where did this come from? What kind of flushing oil? He don't say.... If you use anything other than motor oil (kerosine, solvent, dexron) you are begging for a seized motor. The suggestion to completely drain the oil and replace with this mystery fluid is nuts.
Don't drive more than 300 miles.....let the oil drain for OVERNIGHT......do not start the car for 30 minutes......all nutjob mumbo-jumbo.
What a load of crap.
S
For example you said:
Oils do not polymerize onto metal, many oils have no polymers, (especially synthetics)
Originally Posted by BobistheOilguy
Generally, the base oil comprises eighty percent of the lubricant, with the remainder being additives.
Alkylated naphthalene and phenolic polymers, polymethacrylates, maleate/fumerate copolymer esters (typically used as pour point depressant (the most common way to get a multi-weight oil when used with a Viscosity modifier such as Polymers and copolymers of olefins, methacrylates, dienes or alkylated styrenes).
But then you typically need a anti-foaming agent as well which is made up of (yep you guessed it more polymers, such as Silicone polymers and organic copolymers)
and what do they look like when baked or polymerized onto a part??? Glad you asked, Anyone that has opened a rotary engine should notice that black marks on the housing just below where the oil has been injected into the engine from the MOP. It is from those same polymers being sheared and pushed into the surface of the metal. Often also called varnish in a motor when sludge hardens past the point that any detergent (such as Metallo-organic compounds of sodium, calcium and magnesium phenolates, phosphonates and sulfonates) could force loose.
So now that I proved your first statement in your reply wrong do we need to go any further??? I can do the same with almost everything else you posted in reply in this thread as well. But I won't. I just suggest that you should do a little more background research before attacking a member's post and posting clearly mis-informatin.
BTW: Flushing oil is simply a single weight oil with minumum of viscosity additives/modifiers. Generally 30W for most pre-mid 90's vehicles and 20W for most post 2000 vehicles. Perhaps though you are too young too know that.
Last edited by Icemark; 02-08-2007 at 07:08 PM.
12-12-2013, 02:38 PM
#15
rev it up
When my car was being serviced by the dealer they always used and additive into the engine oil to flush it out. I was a bit dubious as I knew that a fair bit of old oil always remained in the system with the flushing agent still in it. However, my engine has lasted over 10 years and still running strong despite being supercharged for over 2 years so I cannot complain.
Last edited by skc; 12-12-2013 at 02:48 PM.
12-12-2013, 02:45 PM
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Luckily this is not my daily rx8, this was one that I bought onowing didn't run. But, we are doing everything possible to make it run before having to have to rear it down. If we tear down, porting is in the books. Know what the dealer used?
12-14-2013, 04:00 PM
#17
I HATE SPEEDBUMPS!
12-15-2013, 09:32 PM
#18
With rare exception, the reason for these second owner vehicles having sludge issues isn't because of switching oil brands or defective engineering. It's because the original owner/lessee didn't service the vehicle properly, or, properly for the environment the vehicle was operated in. I don't care what any oil analysis says - you can tell on the inside when an engine has went too long between oil changes.
Many "good" second owner vehicles are off-lease vehicles. Do you know how many times a lease return is denied because the original owner didn't show that they maintained it properly? Nearly zero. I've never seen one. Even previous fleet vehicles (rentals) that should have been maintained show up for used car reconditioning with massive sludging.
Many "good" second owner vehicles are off-lease vehicles. Do you know how many times a lease return is denied because the original owner didn't show that they maintained it properly? Nearly zero. I've never seen one. Even previous fleet vehicles (rentals) that should have been maintained show up for used car reconditioning with massive sludging.
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