sti_eric

Absolutely not! What I want is for them to start building a car worth buying. But, they think they can skate by on sales to rednecks who "only buy American" and don't care about the quality of the vehicle they buy.

I remember hearing the same thing about automation in the workplace...how it would kill America. Well, here we are. We've adapted. And we will continue to adapt to whatever comes our way.

Spot on. I buy what is best for me. I'm not going to spend gobs of money on a piece of crap just because of the company that builds it. That just gives manufacturers no incentive to make anything better. If Ford wants me to buy their products, then start building products worth buying. They have nobody to look at but themselves for their problems.

What a bunch of baloney! First off, Ford and GM do not have any cars that are beautifully designed, high quality, and reliable, so this whole conversation is moot. Second, as others have pointed out, take a look at a company like Hyundai, which 10 years ago was totally ripped apart in the auto rags. Now, they are highly praised for the stylish, feature-filled, quality cars that they are producing. Nissan, just a few short years ago, was on the verge of annihilation. They restructured, retooled, and are now producing some great cars. Ford, meanwhile, continues to put out the same, tired, old crap ala the Fusion and Five Hundred.

And what's all this talk about the "big 3" having problems? Chrysler, with an operating profit of $1.5 billion in 2005, is doing just fine. And why are they doing fine while Ford and GM are suffering? They are coming out with new cars that people actually want...SRT4, Magnum, 300, Charger. Nothing in Ford's lineup can compare with the style and performance of these vehicles. Not to mention, while Chrysler, Mercedes, BMW, etc are having huge successes with their high performance divisions, Ford is dismantling theirs. Smart move! (See my other thread on this).

Wow. A more incorrect statement I have not come across in some time. I'm guessing you call Mazda "innovative" because they have a rotary engine in one (very poor selling) vehicle, while you neglect to point out that almost all of their other cars are built on platforms designed by a company other than Mazda. Toyota, meanwhile, is at the forefront of hybrid-electric technology. No matter what you think of this technology, there is no denying the fact that there are many, many consumers demanding these cars and that they are selling like hotcakes. Also, take a look at the comparo in the May C&D...$15,000 compacts. With gas prices rising, this is a segment that is likely to explode in the near future...cheap cars, nice features, and great gas mileage. Included in this comparo: Dodge Caliber, Honda Fit, Hyundai Accent, Kia Rio5, Nissan Versa, Suzuki Reno, Toyota Yaris. Conspicuously absent are any Ford/GM products: a Focus or Cobalt equipped as these cars run up to $18K and the retooled Aveo isn't available. So, Ford and GM are already behind on the curve in this market segment.

In conclusion...ah, just read it

trash259

Excellent post

9G Redline

Now that I've read all of this it's my turn to try and sound smart. I appologize now in the event that I write a book.

I am just wrapping up an Operations Management class and wanted to share what I've learned in an attempt to help me study for my final tomorrow.

From what I've been reading the main themes I'm picking up on are: competition, quality of the vehicles, and what they give performance, comfort, space, value, etc.

Here's what's up. If the big 3 were to fall off the face of the planet I believe the country could be in trouble, but we'd adapt, we as a society and individuals aren't that dumb or lazy. (or so I hope) I would miss GM and Dodge (if they fall off, but for the time seem to be picking up the pace pretty well), but not Ford. Unless my precious Mazda would fall off the face of the planet too.

Now back to the points I noticed. As far as the problems with the companies I believe it's all coming down to Quality and Operations Management. In order to improve quality, lower prices, and such you (a company as a whole) has to Improve Quality, decrease costs caused by rework and mistakes, which leads to improved productivity, and hope to catch the market with better products with lower prices, then you can stay in business and provide more jobs. This is called Deming's Chain Reaction.

Now to the next level. How does a company such as Ford, GM, Dodge achieve this level of smarts. You need to pay attention to what the customer wants, not what you (the management) thinks the customer may want or what you'd like to produce and try to sell it. If you don't make products your customers like they won't sell, no brainer. I also agree that execs need to stop pocketing so much $ and worry about the company. I also agree that people are becoming more selfish, hence why execs are pocketing as much as they can. 94% of responsibility for quality falls on management.

One these companies finally start paying attention to the customers and following Deming's Chain Reaction they may start doing better. There is a lot more on Operations Management that could be applied to help these companies. Things like Deming's Chain are the reason Honda, Toyota, Mazda, and Hyundai are getting better. They pay attention to what the market demands and they find ways to cut costs and still maintain a quality product.

Overall the thing the big 3 need to remember is that they are in business not to earn a profit, but to satisfy the customer.

arcX-8

The big 3 will never fall off the face the earth. They would sell off their smaller divisions, they'd form a conglomerate like Daimler-Chrysler, and eventually the government would subsidize. But if they did, it'd have global consequences. Think about all the foreign holdings, all the materials and technologies etc. that come from all over the world.

Additionally, I see a lot of valid points as to why the big 3 are in trouble, but I believe one very important one was missed: Product cycles. Most of the imports are every bit as bland and boring as most of the domestics. Camry, Impala, Accord etc. bleh! Where the imports are beating the domestics hands down is product cycle. Domestic manufacturers generally redesign their vehicles every 7-9 years, vs. 4-6 years for imports. When GM killed the F-Body in '02 it was a 9 year old platform! Toyota redesigns the Camry every 5 years on the dot. Imports have built their customer base on maintaining momentum in terms of bringing people into the showroom a mere 5 years after buying whatever they are driving.

As far as Daimler-Chrysler goes, the only reason they are profitable is because of Chrysler's strong performance, and in my opinion their current offerings are far above Ford's and GM's in terms of design and quality. Of the cars I have owned so far ('89 Daihatsu, '94 Trooper, '99 Yukon, '02 Liberty, '05 RX-8) the Jeep was by far the best. After 60k miles and some extensive modifications it has no rattles, and every time something broke it was directly caused by me. I kept it when I bought the 8 and gave it to my mom. The Yukon on the other hand, which had cost $15,000 more had worn wheel bearings, malfunctioning cruise control and rattles abound at only 70k miles.

Technology is another issue, when I bought the 8 I was obviously interested in something sporty, which in my mind means something designed from the start as a technologically advanced vehicle and preferably small, and zippy. Well, that ruled out a lot of domestics that I had considered. Mustang: What's with the solid rear axle? This is the 21st century! Charger: No manual tranny? Motherf*&$er please! GTO: curb weight 3700 lbs?! That of course left the usual suspects: STI, EVO, Z, 8 - all imports. We all know where this ends, no need to go there.

One last thing. Financing a car when you can afford to pay it off is just not smart. Pay that thing off and take your monthly payment and invest it in mutual funds. Prudent investment will handily beat the interest rate of your loan, which means that at the end of the 36, or however many months, you'll have MORE money than you paid! If you need money lying around "just in case", either your job security is bad, in which case I would not buy a $30k sports car, or you don't have medical/homeowner's insurance in which case I would not buy a $30k sports car, but divert some funds to remedy that.

Sorry to go so far off track, I'll be quiet now.

therm8

I forsee Honda and Toyota ending up in the Big 2's position in about 10 years. Just look at the lack of inspiration in their product lines. They are already falling into the trap that GM and Ford fell into...Everyone buys our stuff for no other reason than they always have, so we don't have to continue improving our designs.

Assuming Ford and GM make it through the big slump they are in at the moment, and I feel that they will. They will be in the best possible position to regain market share with a vengence. Quality and looks are improving rapidly. And sales will go up. The UAW needs to be cut off at the knees, and recovery would happen rapidly. But therein lies the heart of the problem. The fall of GM and Ford would result in the next Great Depression (most likely on a global scale). North America (and primarily the US) are their only unprofitable markets. I don't know for sure, but I hope that a considerable portion of their posted losses are going toward making better and brighter future products.

The current new releases are a good sign of what's to come. And if they lead the way to ethanol powered vehicles (for which the US would be a major fuel producer), no one could stop them. Both are designing ethanol-electric hybrid prototypes if I recall correctly.

Magic8

I think the issue with Ford and GM is not that no one like domestics, is that no one likes Ford and Gm's business model. I think the branding thing has got to go, platform engineering is great, but repackaging the same exact car with different "skin" just doesn't work.

We are now in an era that favors companies that are nimble and adaptive. Competition is greatly increased. If the Big3 disappear, some one else will take its place (probably Toyota) and life goes on. It is a little alarmist to think that GM or Ford will disappear. I do think that GM and other domestics will become smaller and more nimble.

BTW GM had it's chance. We protected them in the 80's and 90's with tarriffs. They tried to learn the "Toyota Way" with their joint venture at the NUMMI facility. Remember "It's a Different Company," Saturn's Slogan. Saturn was the offspring of the learnings at NUMMI and was tasked to teach GM a different/better way of designing, manufacturing and selling cars. Unfortunately it turned out that a little startup like Saturn have no chance of changing the massive and lithargic GM.

Rootski

iTrader: (1)

Mazda is indeed innovative, and the rotary isn't why. Mazda's main innovation concerning the RX-8 is the way that it is a sports car retaining the convenience of a sports sedan. The rotary's been around for decades, but this is the first suicide-door layout in any kind of sports car (shut up Saturn, it's an econobox). Also there's Mazdaspeed, one of the industry's leaders in the in-house tuner trend, which you yourself mentioned, and their Mazdaspeed6 was one of, if not the first, cars to carry DISI technology off the production line. However, Mazda's most prominent example of innovation is of course the Kabura. One look at that thing should disprove any claims of Mazda's lack of innovation; even competitor's new concepts, like the new Supra or the Ford Reflex look nothing like it.

sti_eric

Ooh, excellent, excellent point. This is something I was thinking about the other day but neglected to mention in my previous post.

I think that it is a HUGE problem that Ford and GM brands for the most part have no identity. They both have way too many brand names and I think they should look at paring them down (axing Oldsmobile was a good start). I much prefer the Toyota model, in which all of its brands have an identity: Scion (entry level cars for the younger crowd), Toyota (everyday, affordable people movers), Lexus (luxury brand). True, Toyota really needs to introduce a sports car to bring more people into dealerships, and they probably should also expand their TRD offerings, but they really have it right with their branding. DCX also has the right idea with Dodge (entry level), Chrysler (intermediate level), Mercedes (luxury brand), and Maybach (ultra luxury) with two speciality brands, Jeep and Smart.

Meanwhile, here we have GM, which has Chevrolet, Buick, Pontiac, GMC, Saturn, Saab, Holden, Opel, and Vauxhall, all of which basically produce the same kind of cars and have no identity. The only GM brands with any kind of identity are Cadillac and Hummer. Ford, while not quite as bad as GM, has Ford, Lincoln (which used to be a luxury division but is now relegated to selling rebadged Fusions), Mercury, Mazda, and Volvo all with no identities and all producing the same/similar vehicles (Jaguar, Land Rover, and Aston Martin are their other labels). It seems as if their theory of operation is that the reason people don't buy their cars is because of the badge on the front, not because of the quality of the car. My suggestion: ax Mercury; make Mazda the young/innovative brand ala Scion (already on the way); combine Lincoln and Volvo into one semi-luxury brand situated somewhere between Ford and Jaguar; bring back and/or expand the SVT and Mazdaspeed lines.

My main gripe with your previous statement is that you said that Toyota isn't innovative, while Mazda is. Clearly, Toyota is way ahead of the pack as far as innovation goes (the hybrid electrics and the introduction of the Scion line being two of the more recent and more impactful innovations).

Paul_in_DC

The last American car I bought was a lemon. If or when the Big 3 start making cars like the Japanese, then I'll start buying them again.

bascho

What was the last domestic? Also, the domestics have been building cars in the exaxt same way as the Japanese for quite some time now. You could walk into and Ford plant and think you were in a Toyota plant and vise versa. Everyone in the business copied Toyota's lean manufacturing design......they had to.

bascho

Brand identity is a major focus of Ford's marketing and planning teams right now. We know that brand identity is a problem for Ford, Mercury, Lincoln, etc.......and we are trying to fix that. I think our plan of making Mercury a female brand is a better idea then killing it off. The last sales presentation I went to shows that Mercury has something like 68% female ownership. That is something they want to capitalize on and increase. Woman look for different things in a car then men......so it seems like a great market for Mercury to pursue. Lincoln is also going to be getting back to it's roots of Amercian luxury.....can't talk a lot about the upcoming products. Ford is probably the hardest to indentify IMO. I would love for the SVT division to be expanded to offer a performance version of every model......but that kind of thing takes a lot of $$$ that they just don't have right now. Nor does it make sense considering where gas prices are going.

A lot of people might not know how much $$$ Ford is investing in alternate fuel technologies......it's a lot! Ford is killing off other programs to pay for the research will be paramount to Ford in the next two decades. Ford really wants to be the alternate fuel leader of the domestic auto companies.....moreso the world. Many people love the SRT program at DCX and the Hemi engines....but those cars are going to be worth **** when gas is $5 per gallon. Ford is gearing up for the next decade where gas is expensive and hybrid and alternate fuel vehicles are necessary........not niche.

Red Devil

An issue that I would want to see would be the costs of all GM and Ford's materials. Delphi has stated recently that they were giving GM huge breaks on some of their parts. Yet, as example, on many domestic vehicles I still see rear drum brakes, while the imports only use disc. The Wall Street Journal a while back reported that every GM and Ford car had an extra ~$1500 added to the price of every vehicle just to cover legacy costs. Point of all this being, I bet there are many places to cut costs and improve the quality of parts they are using while not laying off significant amounts of workers.

sti_eric

IMO, creating a brand for women is pretty lame. They'd be much better off killing the line altogether. Until they do, I believe they will continue to have brand-identity problems. Plus, with their current lineup, I don't see how anything is female oriented. All Mercury has is rebadged Fords (Grand Marquis = Crown Vic; Milan = Fusion; Montego = Five Hundred; Mariner = Escape; Mountaineer = Explorer; Monterey = Freestar). They aren't doing anything to actually DESIGN a car for women, they are just trying to use a marketing ploy. Lame.

The "tuner" cars (SRT, AMG, STi, ///M, Mazdaspeed) are niche markets. They are not designed to be high volume sellers. The people interested in these cars generally do not care about gas mileage; they care about performance. The main purpose of these cars is to generate interest for the base model. This is where I DO believe the automotive press comes in. The 300 gets rave reviews everywhere, in part because of the awesome V8 engines that are offered. The car mags love this performance. But, the vast majority of actual owners bypass the SRT version and get the lower trim levels.
Also, take a look at Subaru since the WRX was introduced. The past 3 years (2003-2005) have all set records for sales, and all without having to do the "employee pricing" or otherwise price-slashing gimmick that Ford and GM have had to do. Bringing the WRX over has made people interested in Subarus.
The Five Hundred and Fusion have opened to some pretty ho-hum reviews. Imagine if Ford made them a bit more stylish and dropped in the 4.6L or better yet the 5.4L (maybe even turbo/supercharged!) engine. That would certainly garner some attention and interest. But, alas, they have decided not to do this.

You say this as if the other big auto makers (GM, DCX, Toyota, Honda, VW) aren't doing the same exact thing.

bascho

The car doesn't have to be completely different to appeal to the female gender. Woman appreciate different colors and textures.....think fashion industry.


I think in two years that the SRT program is going to disappear.

What people are interested in Subaru? Subaru is a 'nobody' in terms of US market share. You sound like such a fanboi.


You really need to stop thinking 20th century and open your mind. Gas will be $5 per gallon in 2008 (bet on it)......responsible auto companies are not interested in developing more V8 technology.

DCX has a hybrid vehicle for sale?? What is it called? Does DCX have any flex-fuel vehicles available? I've never heard about them. GM is trying hybrid technology for 2007/2008 but their hybrid system is a joke compared to Toyota's and Ford's system. Ford is going to have 4 hybrid offerings for the model year 2007 available this fall (Escape, Mariner, Tribute, Fusion). In model year 2008 we will have 8 hybrid vehicles (Adding Edge, MKX, Milan, Zephyr). I remember reading recently that Honda is not investing anymore $$$ in hybrid versions of their line-up due to low sales. Toyota is the only good example of another company committed to alternate fuel. Not sure about VW....but they are certainly not advertising their offering of alternate fuel vehicles.

Please do not bring up diesel as alternate fuel......you only sound stupid considering the length of history diesel has been used in automobiles.

Magic8

It's one thing to spend money on research it quite another to get results from that research. The key component in Innovation is making money. A creative idea that cannot be marketed is just a creative idea, but a creative idea that can make money is innovative. Toyota to me is innovative because they did research with hybrid technology and started making money with it. Ford and GM both need innovation to survive, no more of these pie in the sky research projects. Make money now or the long-term research project will be worthless.

sti_eric

What a waste of money and resources to have a completely separate organization that is devoted to having different colors and fabrics in identical cars. Why not just make a Fusion with different color options?

You also think that Ford will be completely turned around in 2 years, so I really don't put too much stock in what you "think". Do you have an argument why you think this will be the case?

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension or do you just like to read what you want to read? Since Subaru introduced the WRX, they have set sales records every year. This further reinforces my argument that these niche cars are not supposed to be high volume sellers, they are to get buyers interested in the brand. And I'm the fanboi? Compared to you, who thinks Ford can do no wrong despite what all the data says, I am nowhere near a fanboi.

You need to come back to reality. There are many, many people who will continue to buy high performance vehicles, regardless of the price of gas. As long as there are people to buy these cars, manufacturers will continue to make them. And again, many of these models are used to get customers interested in the brand. Unforunately, Ford is shutting itself out of this market segment.

Just because you're ignorant is no excuse. My company has been working with GM and DCX on hybrid technology since the early 90s. We produce hybrid-electric drivetrains for vehicles where it is actually useful - buses and light trucks. In fact, my company and our customer (Orion Bus Industries - which is owned by DCX!) is the world leader in this kind of hybrid-electric technology. Our system offers more than 50% better gas mileage than a traditional diesel bus. You can't say the same for any hybrid engine that Ford puts out.

bascho

Toyota has really only had sales success with hybrid technology in the Prius which sold more on being trendy then actual merit. Hybrid technology prior to the year 2006 has been a novelty technology. Sales of the Escape Hybrid and Mariner Hybrid increased 145% last month based not on novelty but necessity. Ford is going to start making money off the research once gas prices force the public into hybrid necessity on a larger scale. Currently only two companies are prepared for that shift......Ford and Toyota. Everyone else is playing catch-up.

Wurmfist

It's the workers in those companies that have caused their own downfall. And before I get flamed I believe unions were a great thing when people needed them, now it's out of control. Here's some problems because of Unions in the auto industry:

1.) It's near impossible to fire an incompetent worker without a book full of paperwork. Even then mangers are still scared of being sued. This takes up a lot of money.

2.)Pensions and wages are out of control. Joe blow factory worker making 90k a year is a little excessive. But here's the kicker, because of Joe Blow making that kind of money they have infiltrated thousands of neighborhoods with those higher wages and now it actually costs more to live. I.E. Inflation. Good for Joe for making that kind of cash but if they hadn't been demanding higher wages in the first place a dollar would go a lot farther and the companies wouldn't be in financial hell. And those workers would still be experiencing similar qualities of life.

3.)Unions has turned the automotive industry into a business of providing benefits, and they have to sell autos to pay for those benefits.

4.)Automotive Unions (and many others) are all part of the "Big Business" problem in today's Government. And is part of the reason why Bush or any border State governor won't send national guard down to the US/Mexican Border. Because the politicans are scared of the unions and scared of the liberal media. Unions make a small factor in this but it's there.

5.)Unions are why Harley-Davidson's are pieces of crap (they are getting better) and why a US made motorcycle costs 16 to 24k while I can go buy an American made honda that will out perform and outlast that harley for a fraction of the cost.

What benefit do you get when you buy a domestic car? Nothing. Other than trying to support your fellow american. But any car you buy foreign or domestic is helping the American industry in some form or the other. Domestic cars are no longer better made, sometimes it's worse, it's not more reliable, and it's certainly not cheaper. My wife has a almost new chevy and it's starting to have more serious issues than my RX8 (which i haven't had any serious issues with). It's only a year old and the air conditioning doesn't work.

Bottom line, socialist programs like unions are destroying our economy. There's a time and a place for a Union, like during civil rights but is it really necessary anymore? I'm not entirely against unions, I think they are just taking their rights over the top. For instance, like the teachers unions. During the presidential election they pretty much went mafia on everyone in it and said "WE WILL SUPPORT JOHN KERRY!" My mother didn't want to have anything to do with that narcissistic socialist. But yet she had no voice in the matter. She of course wasn't forced to vote for the man, thank God. But the teachers Union wasn't the only union to do that.

To protect the domestic car industry the Workers are going to have to take a pay cut (not anything HUGE) and a pension cut (not huge either). And that will save domestic cars. I guess that was the whole point of my rant.

..phew I'm done...got off on a tangent...yeah...come on...let the flaming begin. I know my opinion isn't a popular one.

bascho

It's not your money so why are you complaining?

I never thought that Ford would be turned around in 2 years.....most likely 10. Big companies like Ford move slowly.....but the point is that they are changing for the future of the industry. Also, I think I already made my point about why SRT would disappear in 2 years......$5 per gallon gas. SRT vehicles are not exotics that draw millionares to the showroom.....they are $40K and draw Nascar fans.....middle-class Americans who absolutely care about gas prices.

What does sales records mean? I am not a Ford fanboi, but I can't stand people that have made up their mind on an issue/company and are not willing to change their opinion......ever. You come on to every thread about Ford and bash the company. You are a hater.

"many many people" ......how many is 'many many'?


So why hasn't DCX used this amazing 'world leading' technology your company helped design in their light vehicles? By the way, the hybrid that Ford uses was purchased from Toyota.....so I guess you think Toyota's system is inferior as well.

sti_eric

I guess I could talk until I was blue in the face and it would never sink in with you. There will ALWAYS be a market for high performance/low gas mileage cars. Believe what you want, but that's a fact. They still sell sports cars in Europe, don't they, despite gas at $7+ a gallon?

It means that in 2003, they sold more vehicles in the US then they ever have. Then, in 2004, they sold more vehicles in the US then they ever have. Then, in 2005, they sold more vehicles in the US then they ever have. All without the "employee discout" and price-slashing gimmicks that Ford had to use, all while losing market share.

Please, you are the biggest Ford lover on here. Take this thread, for example. You say that you want to have a discussion about the big 3 automakers, but it is now clear that all you want to do is telling everybody how rosy things are at Ford, the same as you do in every other Ford thread. I, on the other hand, recognize that Ford is in HUGE trouble, and I have offered some suggestions (axing Mercury, rebranding the other brands, bring back SVT, etc), but you just dismiss them out-of-hand.

I am certainly willing to change my mind on Ford. They just have to start building something worth owner. Right now, they build crap. You on the other hand, tell us, "Ok, maybe Ford hasn't been very good in the past. But, wait until you see what we've got in store for you guys. Trust us. Start buying Fords and you will see." Well, I for one have to see it to believe it. Nothing Ford has done in the recent past makes me believe that they will be coming out with anything interesting in the future. I will buy anything that interests me. So far, I've owned 1 of these brands of vehicles: Oldsmobile, Mitsubishi, Porsche, BMW, Hyundai, Subaru, and Mazda. The only one I soured on was Mitsubishi. I would buy any of the others again. If anything, I am a BMW and Porsche fanboi, not a Subaru fanboi.

You'll have to ask DCX about that; I don't work for them. I actually work on the C-17 flight control system and have nothing to do with the hybrid electic vehicle (HEV) side of the business. I can only guess that maybe they don't think hybrid electrics will be a long-term solution or that they have something better in the pipeline. Just because Ford is staking its entire future on hybrid electrics doesn't mean that it will pan out.

So, here you are reprimanding people for not buying American, while Ford is going out to buy Toyota technology because they can't develop anything on their own??

Sephiroth

You are going all over the place with your arguments. What i said has to do with one thing only, that innovation has not led to mass profits at toyota and honda. Copying and improving has.

sti_eric

Innovation = copying and improving the previous design. There are very, very, very, very few truly brand new ideas. Almost all advances, in every industry, are based on improving something previous.

bascho

I am not saying that the performance car market will disappear completely.....but an SRT version of every model will not survive in a $5 per gallon gas market.

Well that is commendable......good for Subaru (no hating here)

It's not hard to be the biggest Ford lover on a Mazda forum My intention for the discussion was not to talk about any one domestic auto company but rather to discuss the economic impact of their demise as a whole. Someone else brought-up Ford and I felt compelled to defend. Your suggestions about how to fix Ford are laughable since you are obviously not in the industry. Do I tell you how to build flight controls? Axing Mercury!!! Their sales are up 30% this year.....you sound stupid for even suggesting that. How does rebranding help define brand identity? Lincoln and Volvo.....are you serious? What company do you think most people would respond as the safest cars on the road? Why would Ford mess with Volvo at all?....they have great brand identity.

You are not in the minority by having to see to believe......I am the same way. In fact, I might have a similar opinion of Ford if I didn't work for the company and have access to future vehicle information. I understand about buying what interests you.....and I hope that one day Ford has such a product and that you are open to giving it try. Being of German decent, I am also a big fan of Porsche and BMW......so don't confuse my pride in Ford for me being a fanboi.

I don't see how hybrid electronic systems are not long-term solutions......but I can tell you that Ford is investing in every area of alternate fuel research.....especially hydrogen.

I am not reprimanding anyone.......I merely wanted to have a discussion. Hello??? I have an RX8 which is hardly American. I am not living the perfect life....but I do understand that we as a country are heading down a dangerous road.

sti_eric

Does Ford have some secret sales numbers that they show employees just to get their hopes up? A quick look at the YTD sales figures shows that Mercury sales are down 5.6% compared to last year, Ford is down 3.6%, Volvo is down 11.1%.
http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir...item_id=850725

Ford US sales down 7% so far this year, while Toyota is up 8.5% and Honda is up 8.3%. But keep telling us Ford is fine...

Hybrids still depend on petroleum to run. For the long-term, we need to start migrating to alternative energy sources. Hybrids are a short term solution, but so are diesels and fuel cells.

bascho

I am talking about April '05 vs April '06.......Mercury car sales are up 30% and the Mariner is up 40%. The Mountaineer and Monterey (the only losers) will eventually be terminated. I never said Volvo sales were up.....only that brand identity is high.


What in the term 'hybrid electric' denotes fossil fuel burning? A hybrid electric can consist of 100% ethanol burning/electric or hydrogen burning/electric. I do agree that alternate fuels are the future.....and they can be incorporated into hybrid powertrains.