rodrigo67

I've been playing GT4 alot lately and it dawned on me what awesome cars we had back in the late 80's to mid-late 90's. I chose this time period because alot of the technology in todays cars was available then. Many of the following had traction control, limited slip diff, and abs.

Now I know today's cars are more advanced, have even more technology and are much safer, but from a performance point of view, are todays cars better?

Where are the mitsu. 3000's, the toyota supra's, the dodge stealth's, the camaro/firebird twins, the Rx7's. No replacements for these excellent cars. Do we make cars like the pors. 959's, the diablo's, the f-40's, and callaways anymore? Even the everyday sporty cars like honda prelude's, Dodge daytona turbo's, chrysler conquest's, nissan 240's, vw corrado's and others have all gone.

Even many of today's replacements for those older cars are not up to the performance of what they replace.

The mitsu eclipse gsx awd > eclipse v6 gt
The nissan 300z TT > the 350z
the acura intergra > the RSX-s
Lotus espirit v8 > lotus elise (not in handling though)
the vw gti mark 1>vw gti
(ahem, I know) RX7>RX8

I have a topgear video on this same subject and they raced the older vs. newer cars. The older Vw gti was faster, the newer Mr2 was faster, the older ford escort was faster then the focus, the newer peu 206 was faster, and the last nissan 300 was faster then the 350. I read on the 350 forums that the 350 barely beats the oldest of the 300z's.

It took ford's newest generation of mustangs to just now beat the older 5.0 mustangs, which was a beast back then. Not only the performance of these cars but the available selection of sports cars seems so much more back then. Most car companys had at least one sports car, with some having several, which is almost the opposite now. The selection of sports cars at this time was impressive.

Granted many of todays cars are excellant cars, but...Imoa...I think that the Renaissance of performance/sports cars has already passed .

ok, flame on...

m477

Well, let's see here.

Nissan
The 350Z is definitely weak compared to the S15 Silvia and Z32. Even if they make a new GT-R the awesome cast-iron block straight 6 has been ditched in favor of a aluminum V-6, so the days of the fearsome "Godzilla" GT-R are past. No plans for a Silvia replacement.

Toyota
No real performance cars to speak of right now. A new Supra is rumored, but they will probably replace the I-6 in favor of a V-6.

Mitsubishi
Sure the 3000GT and the "real" Eclipse are gone, but the Evo was the best of their performace cars IMO, and it's still around and better than ever.

Subaru
Haven't really changed much... basically they just keep improving their AWD turbo cars.

Mazda
The jury is still out here... *IF* they make a new RX-7 it will probably be lighter than the FD, have a 1.6L Renesis, and a Mazdaspeed turbo version available at some point. The new Miatas (Mazdaspeed and NC) are big improvements over earlier Miatas IMO.

As far as some of the other cars you mentioned:
03-04 Cobra > any (factory) 5.0 Mustang
Ford GT > any previous Ford vehicle
GTO > F-body
Enzo > F-40 (except maybe in the looks department)
GT2 > 959 (there was a magazine comparison review where the GT2 won)
New Integra (RSX) Type-R > old Type-R (not available in the US yet though)
S2000 > any previous Honda

So overall, I don't think performance cars are worse today. The thing we really are missing compared to before though, is a really solid entry-level sportscar. There's nothing today to replace cars like the 240SX, 240Z, or 1st gen RX-7.

dragula53

You are correct. Many of the predecessors of current cars are not as quick as before.
I owned a 300zx, and the 350's naturally aspirated-ness made me not buy one.

I really wanted an FD RX-7, but my daily driver died. I think that the rx-8 is a fine compromise between owning an FD and being able to drive it daily as well. The performance potential isn't there, but it is still a hoot.

MP3Guy

I think the issue also is that people demand so much more utility from their cars today. I was at the auto show and it is true that there are less "true" sports cars out there. But if anyone told me 20 years ago the most popular cars among young people would be tricked out four door sedans, I would have laughed. I think young people want to hang with their friends as much as enjoy driving these days. Two seaters means someone gets left behind!

khtm

I'd be interested to know the MSRP prices of those "older" cars that you're comparing to the "newer" cars of today.

For one, the RX7 when it was last sold in N.A. was about $20K CDN more expensive (including inflation) than the RX8. So yeah, one would expect it to be faster. I don't think this is a fair comparison at all then...you have to consider the price.

Anyone know the prices of the other older cars?

Steiner

Rodrigo...I disagree. In the late 80's and early-mid 90's we did see some great cars. No argument there...RX-7, Supra, 3000GT, 300ZX, etc. However it was the stricter smog regulations and the ever increasing price tags ($40k-$50k) that essentially phased out most of those popular vehicles in the USDM. But today we're in the middle of another horsepower war every bit as intense as the what happened during the muscle car era. Whereas the American muscle car era was about cubic inches (and 39 cents per gallon ) this modern horsepower war is about queezing big power out of small engines. Look no further than what's going on between Subaru and Mitsubishi right now. The USDM Evo IX was just unveiled at the NY Auto show and yet another increase in HP/TQ was squeezed out of that little 4g63 through minor upgrades to the turbo and through the introduction of Mitsubishi's version of variable valve timing known as "MIVEC". You better believe Subaru will anwer the call. In addition to fuel efficiency, engines are also become lighter through advancements in metalurgy and design. The Wenkel rotary in the RX-8 is a great example of everything I've said above. Sure the RX-7 and it's turbo charged rotary of yesteryear put down lots of power, but the price tag reflected it. You look at the current RX-8 and have to appreciate this car coming in at well under $30k. The R&D alone associated with the developement of those late 80's and 90's rice rockets mentioned above caused people like you and me to only be able to experience them in video games. Things are changing for the better IMHO. I know we have self-loathing domestophobics on this forum, but if you look at the kind of relatively inexpensive performance manufacturers like Dodge, Ford, Pontiac, Saturn, and Chevy are offering you have to give credit where credit is due. Cars like the SRT-4, Cobalt SS, Ion Redline, and Ford Mustang can be had by anybody with a decent income. Not to mention the amazing value of the '03 and '04 SVT Mustang Cobra. For les than $1000 in bolt on mods you can get those things to lift the front end of the ground. That's awesome to me. Dodge is also going nuts with performance lately with their whole SRT line. And you have to assume it's only a matter of time before the turbo-files over at Mercedes facilitate the production and sale of a car touting the muscle of a blown hemi.

I think it's a good time to be a car guy.

Ike

I agree with you on just about everything Steiner, but a twinturbo V12 isn't enough for you?

rodrigo67

Steiner,

Pretty good analysis and I hope your right. I just have the feeling that there isn't as much selection as there used to be. Take our rx for example. I would say the real competition for our cars are the 350, g35, and maybe the s2000 and mustangs (which I think is a little above us), and thats it. The sti and evo are running against only each other. The cobalt runs up with the RSX and maybe the celica (which is being discontinued). I'm not sure where the srt4 fits in except it's damn fast. But I remember back in the early 90's where you would be looking at almost a dozen sports cars for consideration. Maybe I'm just getting old and remembering the good ol days that weren't as good as I remember, but it still feels like it was...

rodrigo67

mp3guy,

Yea, I don't get the kids today, and I will never understand why we have the aztek, element, scion squarepants, and a few others, but I guess to each his own. I would have laughed 20 years ago and I still laugh when I see one on the road...

Tricked out 4 doors? I knew I should have held onto that 71 chevy impala...doh...

PaulieWalnuts

Rodrigo your idea of best is based only on faster. If faster was the most important thing people wanted we'd see millions of RX-7s and 350Zs instead of SUVs. But we do have 500hp Corvettes, 650hp Mercedes, and 300hp Mustang GTs. We may have less choices but the ones that are available are the best since the wild days of the 60s.

Ike

I don't get how you guys see it as less choices for car enthusiasts. In the early 90s when I was making my first car purchase the picking were seriously slim. Most people on this board would not be able to afford a Z, Supra, 3000GT/Stealth, or RX-7 back then. My mindset when I was looking was I wanted something I could track and also be fast and fun on the streets, I also needed to be able to afford it.

The 80s Supras were pigs, not all that fast, and handled like snot, the following model was expensive as hell. The RX-7 FCT and FD were quite expensive and unrealiable The 3000GT/Stealth was a pig and very expensive. The TT Z was very expensive, the Stangs were pieces of crap and hellish in winter and not all that fast; ditto for the F-Bodies. MR-2s were pretty expensive as well in turbo form.

Today we have Subaru making 4 cars that are about as fast or faster and can outhandle many of the cars I just mentioned. The Evo and STi could whoop every single one of those cars in stock form around a track or at the strip in stock form and do it for less money and more reliably in most cases.

The performance bargains available to us today can't be rivaled by any other time in history. My options in the early 90s consisted of DSMs and little else, for the enthusiast on a budget today the choices are plentiful.

Smoke Honda

iTrader: (1)

You forget, the 2007 Skyline GT-R :D :D :D

Steiner

That TT V12 is enough power for me, but that engine alone is probably worth more than my entire Evo. I think a supercharged and/or turbocharged hemi will rear its ugly head in the next 3-5 years...hopefully...and I'm guessing it would be a lot cheaper than the TT V12 Mercedes released.

Deslock

Interesting comments. Horsepower in most cars today is much higher than it was 10 years ago. And it was higher in '95 compared to 10 years before that (most cars are significantly heavier, but power has increased more than weight in most cases). 20 years ago, it was a big deal for an econobox to hit 100 hp... now it's common to see them making 150-200 hp.

However, there are fewer performance car choices today, and many are somewhat watered down compared to previous versions. So I see rodrigo67's point

But then again, some of today's performance cars handle better, some are faster, and most are cheaper. So overall, I agree with Steiner... it's a good time to be into cars.

Ike

How can you say there are fewer choices today, I'm just not seeing how it's possible.

guy321

Isn't the SRT-8 a supercharged hemi?

Ike

Nope, just higher displacement and a few other tweaks.

guy321

AHhh, thanks! Would be nice tho!

Deslock

It depends on what types of cars you're looking at. There are some exciting new models and excellent updates to old lines. But there have also been a lot of discontinued models and several edgy vehicles have been replaced by less exhilarating versions. However, as I wrote, "some of today's performance cars handle better, some are faster, and most are cheaper. So overall, I agree with Steiner... it's a good time to be into cars."

RX-Hachi

Perhaps every era can be looked at with a grass is greener perspective. I love the cars from the 60’s: Ferrari GTO, Ford GT40, Shelby Cobra, Jaguar E type, the original Mustang etc., they sure don’t make ‘em like they used to. In reality, their modern day successors are probably better in every way (expect maybe style).

The early 90’s was another great era, especially for Japanese sports cars. But as others have said, they were expensive. I was fortunate enough to have been able to afford the FD RX-7 when it was new in its day back in the early 90’s. I loved my ’93 FD dearly, but for the money, I kept thinking that its build quality sure failed in comparison to my wife’s BMW. When I sold the RX-7 in ‘98, the only cars that attracted my interest were all above $40K. There really wasn’t much out in the market that was comparable in the late 90’s.

Today, it’s a different story. I really think this is one of the best eras for a car enthusiast. There are so many cool cars on the market that are very affordable. The New Mustang, Mini Cooper S, VW Bug, RX-8, 350Z, G35, STi, Lan EVO, and S2000 etc. are all within the average Joe’s reach. The next level is better than ever with the new Boxster S, new C6 Corvette, Lotus Elise, BMW M3 and Audi S4 etc. And the new BMW M5 and Mercedes AMG cars put out crazy HP.

The difference for me is back in the 90’s I had to pay over $40K to get a car I liked, today I don’t. There are lots of choices that can be had at a reasonable price. Cars like the SRT-4, STi, EVO, Corvette, and Elise are performance bargains. Both Mazda & Nissan did a fantastic job to get the RX-8 & 350Z out at a mid-$20K starting price. There are even cool funky cars like the Scion xB that are downright cheap. This is a great era to be car lover!

Shiri

The old tech, uneconomical sports cars of yesterday and being replaced by the thinking sports car.

To the 350z's credit, it is almost as fast as the 300zx TT even though it doesn't have FI. It is probably more economical and guess what, its cheaper!

While the RX8 is a few steps behind the RX7, it does carry some innovation spelling efficiency in design while retaining the sport car feel.

I think cars today are just taking a different step and relying on sheer NA power rather than FI for the time being. Pretty soon, we may end up driving hybrid Nissans and Mazdas. Its just part of the car evolution.

DARKMAZ8

I think that back in the 90's drag racing was a lot more popular than it is these days....and those cars back then catered to that trend........Now,, it's not just about goin fast in a straight line but being able to handle too....ppl want an all around winner and it looks like the manufacterers are delivering.....

canaryrx8

iTrader: (3)

has anyone mentioned the SRT-4? I don't recall any 80-90's car that sold for less than 20 grand that had the performance of those little demons, they may be FWd and a neon etc, but they still scream.

BlueEyes

the best days for me will be when they start making small affordable rear drive cars. I would love to see the RSX, SRT, Civic, Mini etc... rear drive. It would make my car shopping so much easier.

PaulieWalnuts

Omni GLHS