Originally Posted by DARKMAZ8

IMO I look at say the enzo,carrera gt, macleren F1, saleen s7, corvette, viper, zonda, lotus, ect.,ect. all are rwd. I'd suspect that if awd was better than at least ferrari would be all over that idea. It's not like any of these cars don't have the budget for it. I'm not just talking about 1/4 mile times either.

Originally Posted by RX8SpdDmn

Actually, its funny that you metion the Porsche GT2 and GT3 because they are both RWD! The 911 Turbo is AWD, yes, but the faster GT2 has a bump in power/handling/etc and is RWD. The GT3 is naturally aspirated, and RWD, as well. Isn't it funny how Porsche's 3 fastest models are all RWD?

It's because AWD sucks for anything but rally. It's better than Wrong-Wheel-Drive (fwd), but no match for the fun and performance potential of RWD.

Originally Posted by khtm

Wow, that's a terrible example. Your "buddy" was using a slow FWD car that was never meant for autoX and traded it in for a car that shines at it. Of course he's gonna do a lot better.

Originally Posted by rotary crazy

RX-8 with 287hp is a lot faster than an evo or sti around any track. I got tired of laping evos wen my RX-7 had only minor mods and the RX-8 turs bether.

Originally Posted by Steiner

Is the RX-8 your first car? Just curious. Hold that thought.

Originally Posted by Steiner

The RSX-S is an excellent handling car...

Originally Posted by Steiner

Here's a better example for you though. Guy from a forum always takes his E36 M3 to autox. Does very well, but gets nabbed occasionally by the occasional WRX, SRT-4, Miata, S2000, etc. He sold the M3, bought an STi, and has been cleaning up his division now. He's currently considering an Evo 9 when they come out this summer.

Originally Posted by Steiner

I should have known you were asking a loaded question. :p It'll take longer for the traditionlist companies like Ferrari, Lotus and Zonda to experiment with AWD. On top of that, with a mid engine/rear wheel drive setup you get near perfect 50/50 weight balance and limited traction issues because much of the weight sits on top of the back tires anyways. A lot of the reason for AWD is improved traction and handling. However sooner or later all performance car companies will offer an AWD car IMHO. It's just a matter of time. Porsche has embraced it. So has Lamborghini - which means Ferrari is at least debating the idea within their engineering and design circles. As you leave the supercar companies you get into manufacturers like Audi, Saab, BMW, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Mercedes, Jaguar, Mopar, Ford, etc. Hmmm. No Mazda. Maybe their AWD prototypes went boom boom boom instead of zoom zoom zoom. Or maybe they simple don't produce anything with enough nads to merit a better platform. :confused:

Yes, AWD sucks for anything except rally. That's why so many racing sanctioning bodies have banned its use. Maybe they're worried the AWD cars will jump the track and go hunting for shortcuts through the mud and tall grass. That must be it.

On the Porsche of North America website their 6 fastest, most powerful 911 models are all AWD: Carrera 4S, 4S Cabriolet, Turbo, Turbo S, Turbo Cabriolet and Turbo S Cabriolet. They don't even offer anything over 355hp with RWD. Where are you looking?

From the Porsche website...

The all-wheel drive system has a multi-disk viscous coupling and transfers between five and 40 percent of the tractive force permanently to the front wheels, giving the two new coupes excellently balanced performance on bends until close to the handling limit, absolute straight-line stability up to top speed and improved traction on slippery roads

Is the RX-8 your first car? Just curious. Hold that thought.

The RSX-S is an excellent handling car with a great transmission, limited slip transaxle, and a nice high revving engine. They do just fine in autoX competition. He's beaten plenty of RWD cars in his class. Handling is not just about the drivetrain though. Have you seen what Alfa Romeo's FWD cars are doing to BMW over in European racing right now.

Here's a better example for you though. Guy from a forum always takes his E36 M3 to autox. Does very well, but gets nabbed occasionally by the occasional WRX, SRT-4, Miata, S2000, etc. He sold the M3, bought an STi, and has been cleaning up his division now. He's currently considering an Evo 9 when they come out this summer.


For every $100 you spend modding that ticking time bomb of an RX-8 rotary, I'll spend $50 on my car and wipe my ass with your car. What world do you live in where 287whp is enough to beat an Evo? There's guys running 450whp on the stock bottom end out there. I've yet to see any RX-8 do that...well unless somebody dropped a small block Chevy under the hood.

Post some dyno slips for us when you get a chance. I think you're full of shit. :)

Originally Posted by Steiner

On the Porsche of North America website their 6 fastest, most powerful 911 models are all AWD: Carrera 4S, 4S Cabriolet, Turbo, Turbo S, Turbo Cabriolet and Turbo S Cabriolet. They don't even offer anything over 355hp with RWD. Where are you looking?

From the Porsche website...

The all-wheel drive system has a multi-disk viscous coupling and transfers between five and 40 percent of the tractive force permanently to the front wheels, giving the two new coupes excellently balanced performance on bends until close to the handling limit, absolute straight-line stability up to top speed and improved traction on slippery roads


I think you're full of shit. :)

Originally Posted by Steiner

I should have known you were asking a loaded question. :p It'll take longer for the traditionlist companies like Ferrari, Lotus and Zonda to experiment with AWD. On top of that, with a mid engine/rear wheel drive setup you get near perfect 50/50 weight balance and limited traction issues because much of the weight sits on top of the back tires anyways. A lot of the reason for AWD is improved traction and handling. However sooner or later all performance car companies will offer an AWD car IMHO. It's just a matter of time. Porsche has embraced it. So has Lamborghini - which means Ferrari is at least debating the idea within their engineering and design circles. As you leave the supercar companies you get into manufacturers like Audi, Saab, BMW, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Mercedes, Jaguar, Mopar, Ford, etc. Hmmm. No Mazda. Maybe their AWD prototypes went boom boom boom instead of zoom zoom zoom. Or maybe they simple don't produce anything with enough nads to merit a better platform. :confused:

Originally Posted by DARKMAZ8

The reason why AWD is starting to show some pull in the major markets is because it's versatility for daily driving. Like you said, someone with less skill can take an AWD car and look like a pro. As far as supercars, It's all about balance and light weight. Which AWD systems still lack. Maybe if they didn't ban AWD in F1 we'd see an AWD Ferrari but don't think for a second that they banned it because of the cars. It's banned because less driver skill is envolved and that would make for some boring racing. BTW, the lambo AWD has got some sour reviews from traditionalists and we'll see if lambo keeps that system in the future.

ALSO, how dare you insult mazda???!!!!I believe the ms 6 is AWD. :mad:

Originally Posted by playdoh43

RWD probably is a better platform for performance than AWD.

but that does not mean any RWD car can outhandle an AWD car. Evo is certainly way faster than a RX-8. Motortrend managed to luanch a stock EVO from 0-60 in 4.61 seconds with a 3200 rpm clutch drop. And any competent normal driver can do that in 5 seconds. It handles better too. EVO literally feels like a go kart. The steering is extremely precise, you can move the steering wheel a tiny bit and the car would respond instantly. It has better skid pad number and better slalom speed than the RX-8. The only car that Ive driven that even come close, but not quite on par with the EVO in handling is the honda s2000. If you feel exhilerated to take a turn at 60mph in an rx8, you can take the same turn at 75mph in an EVO.

Im just saying being RWD dosnt guarentee youd handle better than a AWD car. EVO handles better than most RWD cars out there short of porshes and exotics.

Originally Posted by playdoh43

RWD probably is a better platform for performance than AWD.

but that does not mean any RWD car can outhandle an AWD car. Evo is certainly way faster than a RX-8. Motortrend managed to luanch a stock EVO from 0-60 in 4.61 seconds with a 3200 rpm clutch drop. And any competent normal driver can do that in 5 seconds. It handles better too. EVO literally feels like a go kart. The steering is extremely precise, you can move the steering wheel a tiny bit and the car would respond instantly. It has better skid pad number and better slalom speed than the RX-8. The only car that Ive driven that even come close, but not quite on par with the EVO in handling is the honda s2000. If you feel exhilerated to take a turn at 60mph in an rx8, you can take the same turn at 75mph in an EVO.

Im just saying being RWD dosnt guarentee youd handle better than a AWD car. EVO handles better than most RWD cars out there short of porshes and exotics.

Originally Posted by MazdaspeedFeras

Steiner: the EVO is a fast and excellent handling car in fact for the price nothing comes close and even for twice the price only a handful of cars are faster and handle better.

But when it comes to the best cars in terms of performance really nothing beats a car with RWD there is no real arguable dispute. Take the top ten exotics in the world and nine of them will be RWD. While yes lamborghini does have an AWD platform, its not their fastest car, same with porsche.

but im with blue eyes the ultimate is the mid engined rear wheel drive car.

Originally Posted by NomisR

If anything, i'd compared AWD and RWD vehicles of the same model and you should get the performance picture. Try 3series or G35. Hell or even Diablo VT vs SV

Originally Posted by X-MAN S

That is a idea. ;)

Originally Posted by Steiner

Yes, AWD sucks for anything except rally. That's why so many racing sanctioning bodies have banned its use. Maybe they're worried the AWD cars will jump the track and go hunting for shortcuts through the mud and tall grass. That must be it.

On the Porsche of North America website their 6 fastest, most powerful 911 models are all AWD: Carrera 4S, 4S Cabriolet, Turbo, Turbo S, Turbo Cabriolet and Turbo S Cabriolet. They don't even offer anything over 355hp with RWD. Where are you looking?

From the Porsche website...

The all-wheel drive system has a multi-disk viscous coupling and transfers between five and 40 percent of the tractive force permanently to the front wheels, giving the two new coupes excellently balanced performance on bends until close to the handling limit, absolute straight-line stability up to top speed and improved traction on slippery roads

Originally Posted by JanSolo

I will grant you that the interior of the Evo is definitely low brow Lancer quality, but as far as handling goes, the Evo outshines the RX8 in almost every way I can think of. AWD obviously means it is going to grip fantastically in the corners at speed, the tires on the Evo are much stickier and wider than the RX8s. The Evo exemplifies go kart like hanlding. The RX8 is a very nice car and I absolutely love mine, but if I was going to a track like Streets of Willow with lots of fast and technical twisties or even the drag strip, the Evo would be my car of choice.

I would absolutely recommend that you drive an Evo before passing any judgement on it's handling prowess or lack thereof.

Originally Posted by X-MAN S

Agreed. Until M. Shumacher starts driving AWD F1 cars, than maybe there will be a bigger argument for it. ;)

Originally Posted by BlueEyes

AWD is not "almost impossible" to recover. You just don't know how to drive it.

Originally Posted by MTLbroker

Exactly, I lost a 325ix once....... a someone explained it to me that you have to do what is counterintuitive...... nail the throttle and steer, not hold the throttle and steer.

But being new to AWD, overwhelmed by false sense of security that the car was invincible. Live and learn. All I meant was that a good RWD telegraphs its limits to the driver. AWD, exceeding limits is like a quantum event.

Originally Posted by RX8SpdDmn

Well, I'm not "looking" anywhere. I worked for a Porsche dealer. Porsche is not currently selling a GT2 or GT3 until they reintroduce them for the new 997 chassis. And, btw, a RWD 911 Carerra IS faster than a Carerra 4. Now, all the models you mentioned are the 996 models. The next-gen turbo will be out next year and a prototype GT3 has already been spotted. Turbo models and cabriolet models are in the works, as well. If you look at any of the Carerra vs. Carerra4 models of the past (you can't compare a C4S to a C2 because the S gets the Turbo's suspension, brakes, and wheels/tires), the 2wd Carerras are faster.

It's also relevant to try to evaluate the best combination of drive wheels by looking at race cars because the sanctioning bodies usually dock the fastest cars with weight or set-up restraints to keep the racing competetive. For example, look at the Speed World Challenge series. BMW would kill everything if it weren't docked so much weight. When they were new, they did kill everything. The TSX made it's debut with fwd and was racking up as well, but they'll be docking that car with weight, as well, to keep the racing exciting.

The only way to evaluate the drive wheel advantages is to take a car and set it up with fwd, rwd, and awd. Or RWD vs AWD, since that's the real argument. Look at the Porsches for example. If you actually knew what you were talking about, you'd see that there's no advantage for a skilled driver to having awd, when you consider it's drawbacks against it's advantages (and I'm not saying that is doesn't have advantages).

Originally Posted by DARKMAZ8

I am not talking about the evo.

The fastest cars in the world are rwd. Why?