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Originally Posted by LNWLF
Rude dealers permeate throughout EVERY make, and with all the morons who come in to just beat on new cars, who can blame them sometimes...
PS: Nothing exciting at Mitsu; uhhhh Evo????? And the Eclipse is a pretty exciting daily commuter car; and Road and Track gave it great reviews, saying it had power everyhwere. So where did you get the underpowered bit, must be making up lies to compensate for something????? So assume that maybe I get dealt a pretty solid case of brain damage and I want an FWD sports car for some asinine reason. I might look at the Eclipse, but I'm 99% sure I'll end up with the SRT-4 since is does about everything better even though it's one of the only cars to beat out the new Eclipse on uglyness. Either way, in my mind, FWD + Sports car = lame. Oh, and I'm not compensating for owning a slow car. At least my car is fun to drive and doesn't handle like a pig. Have you seen what the new Eclipse tips the scales at? |
Originally Posted by RedLineShinka
Has anyone test-driven anything "exciting" at a Sh!tsubishi dealer within the last 2-3 years?... seriously?
The Evo would be nice if it didn't feel like a $10 Tomy plastic car - am I alone thinking this? Please, to me that car ranks in the same neighborhood as the WRX STI... nice straight-line power, decent handling, but it'll fall off a turn ... I would absolutely recommend that you drive an Evo before passing any judgement on it's handling prowess or lack thereof. |
It's true that no company will bend over backwards to cover abuse issues and I don't expect them to. My main beef is with Mitsubishi actively searching the internet for autocross results that contain Evos and then proceeding to void their warranties. In all honesty, I could cause FAR more damage to a car in about twenty minutes than I would cause over the duration of several autocross events. Mitsu would be none the wiser because "Rob tromped on his car in the Target parking lot" is not likely to get posted on the internet and even if it was, I doubt that'd be something they search for. On top of all that, they shouldn't be advertising the Evo as a road-going racecar if they aren't expecting their customers to go and wring it out every once in a while. That's just stupid.
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I've heard that rumor before about Mitsubishi scouring the net for people racing their Evos. In fact, Mitsubishi heard about this rumor as well and actually posted something on their web site specifically stating they in fact did not do this. Mitsu stated that they have no person pouring over web pages, looking for proof of abuse and modification just to void warranties. But - they never said either way if they did or did not have an automated system doing searches for people "abusing" their cars.
And back to Subaru and warranty claims for a moment. When my wife bought her 2004 WRX, it came with this free membership to the SCCA. Great! We love free things. Unfortunately, if you use this membership and actually participate in an SCCA event with your WRX, well there goes your warranty. |
That dealership is run by morons for 2 reasons...
1.) That promotion is retarded. What do they expect? 2.) Treating you the way they did is very bad prospecting and totally unethical.
Originally Posted by RedLineShinka
...The Evo would be nice if it didn't feel like a $10 Tomy plastic car - am I alone thinking this? Please, to me that car ranks in the same neighborhood as the WRX STI... nice straight-line power, decent handling, but it'll fall off a turn ...
bow to my 8, bastards. Disclaimer: This has been my opinion, if you don't like it, stop reading them. Disclaimer: This has been fact, if you don't like it or simply can't wrap your brain around it, please reread it. |
~sigh~
Here we go again |
Originally Posted by Steiner
Speaking of morons. If an Evo or STi falls of a particular turn then your RX-8 would do a cartweel off the road while trying to take it. Besides being more powerful, they're also better handling cars.
Disclaimer: This has been fact, if you don't like it or simply can't wrap your brain around it, please reread it. |
Originally Posted by Rhawb
Rear wheel drive is more fun. I don't care what you say, understeer still sucks. I don't give a damn if it's faster, that's why I bought the RX8. It's more fun to drive and it looks a hell of a lot better. Sorry, back to the bridge. :rolleyes:
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I've driven an AWD A4 and a WRX. Neither of them impressed me any more than the 8. I really don't care about coming in first at an autocross, I'd rather enjoy driving my car more every day than one day a month.
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Originally Posted by Steiner
I think taking 1st place in an autoX event behind the wheel of an Evo would trump "more fun to drive" and "looks a hell of a lot better". RWD is nice until you've experienced an AWD power slide. Fun is relative...especially if you don't or haven't owned both cars...so I'll defer to JanSolo's opinion on that.
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Originally Posted by Rhawb
I've driven an AWD A4 and a WRX. Neither of them impressed me any more than the 8. I really don't care about coming in first at an autocross, I'd rather enjoy driving my car more every day than one day a month.
On the other hand, the Evo has a very peaky powerband, it does indeed have understeer, but it nowhere compares to the sheer amount present in the WRX. ANYHOW, before you go off panning AWD as boring and no fun, you should try to take some time out of your life to test drive the Evo. It is a sharp razor of a car versus the dull knife that is the WRX and family car that is the A4. |
Originally Posted by DARKMAZ8
so why are the fastest cars rwd?
But stock for stock, if we were to compare 1/4 mile times, the Evo does very well versus RWD cars like the GTO, Dodge Charger, Mustang GT, RX8 and 350z. Where it does get it's ass handed is against cars like the Corvette and Viper. |
Originally Posted by JanSolo
The Evo does have a mere 2.0 liter engine, ya know. Given it's limited displacement, it does pretty decently. People are in the 9s in the 1/4 mile with the Evo. Check out www.dynoflash.com and www.turbotrix.com, both of which have very fast Evos.
But stock for stock, if we were to compare 1/4 mile times, the Evo does very well versus RWD cars like the GTO, Dodge Charger, Mustang GT, RX8 and 350z. Where it does get it's ass handed is against cars like the Corvette and Viper. The fastest cars in the world are rwd. Why? |
Originally Posted by JanSolo
The Evo does have a mere 2.0 liter engine, ya know. Given it's limited displacement, it does pretty decently. People are in the 9s in the 1/4 mile with the Evo. Check out www.dynoflash.com and www.turbotrix.com, both of which have very fast Evos.
But stock for stock, if we were to compare 1/4 mile times, the Evo does very well versus RWD cars like the GTO, Dodge Charger, Mustang GT, RX8 and 350z. Where it does get it's ass handed is against cars like the Corvette and Viper. RWD does have a universal advantage in lighter weight, and less moving parts. AWD is not the end all suspension (like salesmen have tried to tell me), but the handling just depends on the setup and system from car to car. I don't think you could disgregard the handling on the Evo just because it's AWD though, but some people just have a personal preference for how a RWD car handles. |
Originally Posted by Rotarian_SC
I think his point is more like, why are Enzo (and other Ferarris) and McLaren F1 and Carerra GT and Zonda and Koenigsegg CC and NSX etc. RWD.
RWD does have a universal advantage in lighter weight, and less moving parts. AWD is not the end all suspension (like salesmen have tried to tell me), but the handling just depends on the setup and system from car to car. I don't think you could disgregard the handling on the Evo just because it's AWD though, but some people just have a personal preference for how a RWD car handles. |
Originally Posted by DARKMAZ8
I am not talking about the evo.
The fastest cars in the world are rwd. Why? |
If you mean "fastest" as in Top Speed they are RWD because there is less drivetrain loss and significantly less weight. If you're going for land speed records RWD is the way to go. Hell FWD might even work just as good if you're just going to Bonneville.
If you mean "fastest" in terms of actual racing, there are just about as many supercar exotics and various race cars that are AWD as RWD. |
Originally Posted by JanSolo
Because they wanted to design a car that can ultimately go fast in a straight line? Not being part of the engineering design team (or marketing team for that matter), I could only venture a guess as to why they specifically chose RWD for their cars. Of course, we also wouldn't be sure why Lamborghini chose an AWD platform for some of their cars.
For the Evo, many people love the classic feel of a boosted engine + AWD, like the R32, WRX, older S4, etc :). |
Originally Posted by Rotarian_SC
...A RWD setup also gives a more traditional feel, because generally it's easier to reel back in after a wheel breaks traction...
For example, my buddy sold his Acura RSX-S for an Evo MR and won his class the next weekend in autoX. The car had less than 1000 miles on it and he had maybe, at the most, 20 hours behind the wheel. It took him more than a year to finish in the top 5 with his Acura, but it took him less than a week to do the same with the Evo. |
So a benefit to AWD cars is that you don't actually have to be a good driver to get respect for beating people? :confused:
That sounds kind of weak to me. Just rewards people for being complacent with their driving. Boooooooring. |
Originally Posted by Rhawb
So a benefit to AWD cars is that you don't actually have to be a good driver to get respect for beating people? :confused:
That sounds kind of weak to me. Just rewards people for being complacent with their driving. Boooooooring. |
Originally Posted by Steiner
I don't know if that's true. Isn't Audi's LeMans car AWD. Same with Mercedes' LeMans car. I've also seen a video of a 245mph Nissan Skyline. I know BTCC banned AWD because it was deemed an unfair advantage and SCCA banned AWD in the 80's when 350hp Audis were abusing 500hp Camaros. Are you talking about "fastest" exotics? Lamborghini, Porsche and Jaguar all sell $100k AWD supercars IIRC. Then of course there's the Nissan Skyline, Mitsubishi 3000GT, Evo, STi and a whole bunch of DSM pocket rockets still running 10 second times at the strip. Generally speaking AWD cars are purpose built for a balance of power and handling...not 1/4 mile times like the SVT Cobra or Camaro SS.
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Originally Posted by Rotarian_SC
A NSX-R will eat up a Lambo on a racing circuit. There's even a Best Motoring Video on it. There are several other prominent cars with AWD like some Porsches, and the GT2/3 might, the old Skyline GTR, and the S4. Why would they have AWD, because it helps to put down the large amount of power from the engines more easily. You can make a RWD platform handle just as good, if not better though, and I don't think many of the companies want to have to pay for the extra cost and weight of an AWD system. A RWD setup also gives a more traditional feel, because generally it's easier to reel back in after a wheel breaks traction.
For the Evo, many people love the classic feel of a boosted engine + AWD, like the R32, WRX, older S4, etc :). It's because AWD sucks for anything but rally. It's better than Wrong-Wheel-Drive (fwd), but no match for the fun and performance potential of RWD. |
Originally Posted by Steiner
For example, my buddy sold his Acura RSX-S for an Evo MR and won his class the next weekend in autoX. The car had less than 1000 miles on it and he had maybe, at the most, 20 hours behind the wheel. It took him more than a year to finish in the top 5 with his Acura, but it took him less than a week to do the same with the Evo.
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Originally Posted by khtm
Wow, that's a terrible example. Your "buddy" was using a slow FWD car that was never meant for autoX and traded it in for a car that shines at it. Of course he's gonna do a lot better.
That and all the driver's skill he gained in the Acura transfers to any car he drives. |
RX-8 with 287hp is a lot faster than an evo or sti around any track. I got tired of laping evos wen my RX-7 had only minor mods and the RX-8 turs bether.
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Originally Posted by DARKMAZ8
IMO I look at say the enzo,carrera gt, macleren F1, saleen s7, corvette, viper, zonda, lotus, ect.,ect. all are rwd. I'd suspect that if awd was better than at least ferrari would be all over that idea. It's not like any of these cars don't have the budget for it. I'm not just talking about 1/4 mile times either.
Originally Posted by RX8SpdDmn
Actually, its funny that you metion the Porsche GT2 and GT3 because they are both RWD! The 911 Turbo is AWD, yes, but the faster GT2 has a bump in power/handling/etc and is RWD. The GT3 is naturally aspirated, and RWD, as well. Isn't it funny how Porsche's 3 fastest models are all RWD?
It's because AWD sucks for anything but rally. It's better than Wrong-Wheel-Drive (fwd), but no match for the fun and performance potential of RWD. On the Porsche of North America website their 6 fastest, most powerful 911 models are all AWD: Carrera 4S, 4S Cabriolet, Turbo, Turbo S, Turbo Cabriolet and Turbo S Cabriolet. They don't even offer anything over 355hp with RWD. Where are you looking? From the Porsche website... The all-wheel drive system has a multi-disk viscous coupling and transfers between five and 40 percent of the tractive force permanently to the front wheels, giving the two new coupes excellently balanced performance on bends until close to the handling limit, absolute straight-line stability up to top speed and improved traction on slippery roads
Originally Posted by khtm
Wow, that's a terrible example. Your "buddy" was using a slow FWD car that was never meant for autoX and traded it in for a car that shines at it. Of course he's gonna do a lot better.
The RSX-S is an excellent handling car with a great transmission, limited slip transaxle, and a nice high revving engine. They do just fine in autoX competition. He's beaten plenty of RWD cars in his class. Handling is not just about the drivetrain though. Have you seen what Alfa Romeo's FWD cars are doing to BMW over in European racing right now. Here's a better example for you though. Guy from a forum always takes his E36 M3 to autox. Does very well, but gets nabbed occasionally by the occasional WRX, SRT-4, Miata, S2000, etc. He sold the M3, bought an STi, and has been cleaning up his division now. He's currently considering an Evo 9 when they come out this summer.
Originally Posted by rotary crazy
RX-8 with 287hp is a lot faster than an evo or sti around any track. I got tired of laping evos wen my RX-7 had only minor mods and the RX-8 turs bether.
Post some dyno slips for us when you get a chance. I think you're full of shit. :) |
AWD is only good for putting to use with all your wheels traction. However, typically a car would only use it's rear wheels for acceleration as the weight of the car is shifted backwards so traction for the front wheel is pretty much limited. On the other hand, the front wheels would be more used for turning and braking as weight transfers forward. AWD helps when you are in scenerios where traction is limited as with rally tracks, snow or rain conditions. In normal conditions, RWD beats AWD because of lower weight and less complex design. And weight typically is the most important part of all racing because it helps with handling and responsiveness of the vehicles, why else would racing teams spend millions on shaving a couple pounds?
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Originally Posted by Steiner
Is the RX-8 your first car? Just curious. Hold that thought.
Originally Posted by Steiner
The RSX-S is an excellent handling car...
Originally Posted by Steiner
Here's a better example for you though. Guy from a forum always takes his E36 M3 to autox. Does very well, but gets nabbed occasionally by the occasional WRX, SRT-4, Miata, S2000, etc. He sold the M3, bought an STi, and has been cleaning up his division now. He's currently considering an Evo 9 when they come out this summer.
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Originally Posted by Steiner
I should have known you were asking a loaded question. :p It'll take longer for the traditionlist companies like Ferrari, Lotus and Zonda to experiment with AWD. On top of that, with a mid engine/rear wheel drive setup you get near perfect 50/50 weight balance and limited traction issues because much of the weight sits on top of the back tires anyways. A lot of the reason for AWD is improved traction and handling. However sooner or later all performance car companies will offer an AWD car IMHO. It's just a matter of time. Porsche has embraced it. So has Lamborghini - which means Ferrari is at least debating the idea within their engineering and design circles. As you leave the supercar companies you get into manufacturers like Audi, Saab, BMW, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Mercedes, Jaguar, Mopar, Ford, etc. Hmmm. No Mazda. Maybe their AWD prototypes went boom boom boom instead of zoom zoom zoom. Or maybe they simple don't produce anything with enough nads to merit a better platform. :confused:
Yes, AWD sucks for anything except rally. That's why so many racing sanctioning bodies have banned its use. Maybe they're worried the AWD cars will jump the track and go hunting for shortcuts through the mud and tall grass. That must be it. On the Porsche of North America website their 6 fastest, most powerful 911 models are all AWD: Carrera 4S, 4S Cabriolet, Turbo, Turbo S, Turbo Cabriolet and Turbo S Cabriolet. They don't even offer anything over 355hp with RWD. Where are you looking? From the Porsche website... The all-wheel drive system has a multi-disk viscous coupling and transfers between five and 40 percent of the tractive force permanently to the front wheels, giving the two new coupes excellently balanced performance on bends until close to the handling limit, absolute straight-line stability up to top speed and improved traction on slippery roads Is the RX-8 your first car? Just curious. Hold that thought. The RSX-S is an excellent handling car with a great transmission, limited slip transaxle, and a nice high revving engine. They do just fine in autoX competition. He's beaten plenty of RWD cars in his class. Handling is not just about the drivetrain though. Have you seen what Alfa Romeo's FWD cars are doing to BMW over in European racing right now. Here's a better example for you though. Guy from a forum always takes his E36 M3 to autox. Does very well, but gets nabbed occasionally by the occasional WRX, SRT-4, Miata, S2000, etc. He sold the M3, bought an STi, and has been cleaning up his division now. He's currently considering an Evo 9 when they come out this summer. For every $100 you spend modding that ticking time bomb of an RX-8 rotary, I'll spend $50 on my car and wipe my ass with your car. What world do you live in where 287whp is enough to beat an Evo? There's guys running 450whp on the stock bottom end out there. I've yet to see any RX-8 do that...well unless somebody dropped a small block Chevy under the hood. Post some dyno slips for us when you get a chance. I think you're full of shit. :) AWD is offered simply not mainly for performance reasons but for market. Car companies are there to sell cars, not to fulfill their dreams, there has to be compromise from what the market wants. If the market wants AWD, they have to give it. Additionally, 50/50 weight distribution is not the optimal weight distribution as the media and masses would like you to think, the most optimal weight should be around 40/60 or at least with a slight weight bias towards the rear. Eitherway, the AWD fad is like the FWD fad in the 80-90s, it's not always because it's better performing but people don't want to learn how to drive, it's the easier way out for those that want to go fast and not have to think. Thats the problem today, people don't want to learn how to drive, people want to have the cars drive for them. :( |
Originally Posted by Steiner
On the Porsche of North America website their 6 fastest, most powerful 911 models are all AWD: Carrera 4S, 4S Cabriolet, Turbo, Turbo S, Turbo Cabriolet and Turbo S Cabriolet. They don't even offer anything over 355hp with RWD. Where are you looking? From the Porsche website... The all-wheel drive system has a multi-disk viscous coupling and transfers between five and 40 percent of the tractive force permanently to the front wheels, giving the two new coupes excellently balanced performance on bends until close to the handling limit, absolute straight-line stability up to top speed and improved traction on slippery roads I think you're full of shit. :) porsche GT2....is offered with 456hp ...RWD...faster than all the above porsche you've mentioned.... http://motortrend.com/roadtests/coup...he/index1.html porsche carrera GT, fastest porsche offered, RWD...605hp....again faster than any awd porshe offered. http://www.caranddriver.com/?section...del=CARRERA+GT porsche gt3, best handling machine offered from porsche, RWD, again better on track than any of the awd porsche offered. basically any porsche on the GT level are ALL RWD....speed, handling, you name it....ALL RWD...no exception..... the fastest porsche, carrera GT is RWD......0-60mph under 4 sec...... |
Front engine rear drive cars are great.............
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they're alright, theres better places for the engine :p
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RWD probably is a better platform for performance than AWD.
but that does not mean any RWD car can outhandle an AWD car. Evo is certainly way faster than a RX-8. Motortrend managed to luanch a stock EVO from 0-60 in 4.61 seconds with a 3200 rpm clutch drop. And any competent normal driver can do that in 5 seconds. It handles better too. EVO literally feels like a go kart. The steering is extremely precise, you can move the steering wheel a tiny bit and the car would respond instantly. It has better skid pad number and better slalom speed than the RX-8. The only car that Ive driven that even come close, but not quite on par with the EVO in handling is the honda s2000. If you feel exhilerated to take a turn at 60mph in an rx8, you can take the same turn at 75mph in an EVO. Im just saying being RWD dosnt guarentee youd handle better than a AWD car. EVO handles better than most RWD cars out there short of porshes and exotics. |
Originally Posted by Steiner
I should have known you were asking a loaded question. :p It'll take longer for the traditionlist companies like Ferrari, Lotus and Zonda to experiment with AWD. On top of that, with a mid engine/rear wheel drive setup you get near perfect 50/50 weight balance and limited traction issues because much of the weight sits on top of the back tires anyways. A lot of the reason for AWD is improved traction and handling. However sooner or later all performance car companies will offer an AWD car IMHO. It's just a matter of time. Porsche has embraced it. So has Lamborghini - which means Ferrari is at least debating the idea within their engineering and design circles. As you leave the supercar companies you get into manufacturers like Audi, Saab, BMW, Subaru, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Mercedes, Jaguar, Mopar, Ford, etc. Hmmm. No Mazda. Maybe their AWD prototypes went boom boom boom instead of zoom zoom zoom. Or maybe they simple don't produce anything with enough nads to merit a better platform. :confused:
ALSO, how dare you insult mazda???!!!!I believe the ms 6 is AWD. :mad: |
Steiner: the EVO is a fast and excellent handling car in fact for the price nothing comes close and even for twice the price only a handful of cars are faster and handle better.
But when it comes to the best cars in terms of performance really nothing beats a car with RWD there is no real arguable dispute. Take the top ten exotics in the world and nine of them will be RWD. While yes lamborghini does have an AWD platform, its not their fastest car, same with porsche. but im with blue eyes the ultimate is the mid engined rear wheel drive car. |
Originally Posted by DARKMAZ8
The reason why AWD is starting to show some pull in the major markets is because it's versatility for daily driving. Like you said, someone with less skill can take an AWD car and look like a pro. As far as supercars, It's all about balance and light weight. Which AWD systems still lack. Maybe if they didn't ban AWD in F1 we'd see an AWD Ferrari but don't think for a second that they banned it because of the cars. It's banned because less driver skill is envolved and that would make for some boring racing. BTW, the lambo AWD has got some sour reviews from traditionalists and we'll see if lambo keeps that system in the future.
ALSO, how dare you insult mazda???!!!!I believe the ms 6 is AWD. :mad: BTW It still hard to imagine an F1 awd car outhandling a mid engine rwd F1 car. Especially with the added weight of the awd system. :o |
Originally Posted by playdoh43
RWD probably is a better platform for performance than AWD.
but that does not mean any RWD car can outhandle an AWD car. Evo is certainly way faster than a RX-8. Motortrend managed to luanch a stock EVO from 0-60 in 4.61 seconds with a 3200 rpm clutch drop. And any competent normal driver can do that in 5 seconds. It handles better too. EVO literally feels like a go kart. The steering is extremely precise, you can move the steering wheel a tiny bit and the car would respond instantly. It has better skid pad number and better slalom speed than the RX-8. The only car that Ive driven that even come close, but not quite on par with the EVO in handling is the honda s2000. If you feel exhilerated to take a turn at 60mph in an rx8, you can take the same turn at 75mph in an EVO. Im just saying being RWD dosnt guarentee youd handle better than a AWD car. EVO handles better than most RWD cars out there short of porshes and exotics. |
Originally Posted by playdoh43
RWD probably is a better platform for performance than AWD.
but that does not mean any RWD car can outhandle an AWD car. Evo is certainly way faster than a RX-8. Motortrend managed to luanch a stock EVO from 0-60 in 4.61 seconds with a 3200 rpm clutch drop. And any competent normal driver can do that in 5 seconds. It handles better too. EVO literally feels like a go kart. The steering is extremely precise, you can move the steering wheel a tiny bit and the car would respond instantly. It has better skid pad number and better slalom speed than the RX-8. The only car that Ive driven that even come close, but not quite on par with the EVO in handling is the honda s2000. If you feel exhilerated to take a turn at 60mph in an rx8, you can take the same turn at 75mph in an EVO. Im just saying being RWD dosnt guarentee youd handle better than a AWD car. EVO handles better than most RWD cars out there short of porshes and exotics. |
Originally Posted by MazdaspeedFeras
Steiner: the EVO is a fast and excellent handling car in fact for the price nothing comes close and even for twice the price only a handful of cars are faster and handle better.
But when it comes to the best cars in terms of performance really nothing beats a car with RWD there is no real arguable dispute. Take the top ten exotics in the world and nine of them will be RWD. While yes lamborghini does have an AWD platform, its not their fastest car, same with porsche. but im with blue eyes the ultimate is the mid engined rear wheel drive car. |
Originally Posted by NomisR
If anything, i'd compared AWD and RWD vehicles of the same model and you should get the performance picture. Try 3series or G35. Hell or even Diablo VT vs SV
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Originally Posted by X-MAN S
That is a idea. ;)
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Originally Posted by Steiner
Yes, AWD sucks for anything except rally. That's why so many racing sanctioning bodies have banned its use. Maybe they're worried the AWD cars will jump the track and go hunting for shortcuts through the mud and tall grass. That must be it.
On the Porsche of North America website their 6 fastest, most powerful 911 models are all AWD: Carrera 4S, 4S Cabriolet, Turbo, Turbo S, Turbo Cabriolet and Turbo S Cabriolet. They don't even offer anything over 355hp with RWD. Where are you looking? From the Porsche website... The all-wheel drive system has a multi-disk viscous coupling and transfers between five and 40 percent of the tractive force permanently to the front wheels, giving the two new coupes excellently balanced performance on bends until close to the handling limit, absolute straight-line stability up to top speed and improved traction on slippery roads It's also relevant to try to evaluate the best combination of drive wheels by looking at race cars because the sanctioning bodies usually dock the fastest cars with weight or set-up restraints to keep the racing competetive. For example, look at the Speed World Challenge series. BMW would kill everything if it weren't docked so much weight. When they were new, they did kill everything. The TSX made it's debut with fwd and was racking up as well, but they'll be docking that car with weight, as well, to keep the racing exciting. The only way to evaluate the drive wheel advantages is to take a car and set it up with fwd, rwd, and awd. Or RWD vs AWD, since that's the real argument. Look at the Porsches for example. If you actually knew what you were talking about, you'd see that there's no advantage for a skilled driver to having awd, when you consider it's drawbacks against it's advantages (and I'm not saying that is doesn't have advantages). |
Originally Posted by JanSolo
I will grant you that the interior of the Evo is definitely low brow Lancer quality, but as far as handling goes, the Evo outshines the RX8 in almost every way I can think of. AWD obviously means it is going to grip fantastically in the corners at speed, the tires on the Evo are much stickier and wider than the RX8s. The Evo exemplifies go kart like hanlding. The RX8 is a very nice car and I absolutely love mine, but if I was going to a track like Streets of Willow with lots of fast and technical twisties or even the drag strip, the Evo would be my car of choice.
I would absolutely recommend that you drive an Evo before passing any judgement on it's handling prowess or lack thereof. Break loose, and the RWD will have a slight chance of a recovery. AWD, almost impossible. Experience: BMW 325iX, lost traction, didn't know how to get car under control. RWD was always able to bring the tail end back. With an pro driver, AWD will beat RWD. With the average driver, when limits are exceeded, AWD give false sense of security. Average drivers better with AWD. |
Originally Posted by X-MAN S
Agreed. Until M. Shumacher starts driving AWD F1 cars, than maybe there will be a bigger argument for it. ;)
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AWD is not "almost impossible" to recover. You just don't know how to drive it.
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Originally Posted by BlueEyes
AWD is not "almost impossible" to recover. You just don't know how to drive it.
But being new to AWD, overwhelmed by false sense of security that the car was invincible. Live and learn. All I meant was that a good RWD telegraphs its limits to the driver. AWD, exceeding limits is like a quantum event. |
Originally Posted by MTLbroker
Exactly, I lost a 325ix once....... a someone explained it to me that you have to do what is counterintuitive...... nail the throttle and steer, not hold the throttle and steer.
But being new to AWD, overwhelmed by false sense of security that the car was invincible. Live and learn. All I meant was that a good RWD telegraphs its limits to the driver. AWD, exceeding limits is like a quantum event. |
Originally Posted by RX8SpdDmn
Well, I'm not "looking" anywhere. I worked for a Porsche dealer. Porsche is not currently selling a GT2 or GT3 until they reintroduce them for the new 997 chassis. And, btw, a RWD 911 Carerra IS faster than a Carerra 4. Now, all the models you mentioned are the 996 models. The next-gen turbo will be out next year and a prototype GT3 has already been spotted. Turbo models and cabriolet models are in the works, as well. If you look at any of the Carerra vs. Carerra4 models of the past (you can't compare a C4S to a C2 because the S gets the Turbo's suspension, brakes, and wheels/tires), the 2wd Carerras are faster.
It's also relevant to try to evaluate the best combination of drive wheels by looking at race cars because the sanctioning bodies usually dock the fastest cars with weight or set-up restraints to keep the racing competetive. For example, look at the Speed World Challenge series. BMW would kill everything if it weren't docked so much weight. When they were new, they did kill everything. The TSX made it's debut with fwd and was racking up as well, but they'll be docking that car with weight, as well, to keep the racing exciting. The only way to evaluate the drive wheel advantages is to take a car and set it up with fwd, rwd, and awd. Or RWD vs AWD, since that's the real argument. Look at the Porsches for example. If you actually knew what you were talking about, you'd see that there's no advantage for a skilled driver to having awd, when you consider it's drawbacks against it's advantages (and I'm not saying that is doesn't have advantages). I absolutely do know what I'm talking about. I've owned and driven high-powered RWD, AWD and (yes even) FWD cars. As technology improves AWD drivetrain loss will continue to decline. If it weren't for the parasitic drivetrain loss associated with the front transaxle this wouldn't even be a debate. Engineers are also improving the reliability of the platform constantly and sooner or later somebody's gonna develop an AWD platform that is either 100% front biased or 100% rear biased depending on the driving conditions. My money is on Nissan or Audi. As far as AWD being a fad. To an extent I agree, but only as it relates to luxury cars like the Acuta RL, Infiniti G35 and that new Lexus whatever. That kind of demographic needs a bus pass - not a 350hp, 4500lb, ginormous AWD projectile with countless interior gadgets to help further distract the driver. In performance circles it's certainly not a fad. Rather it's the future IMHO. |
Originally Posted by DARKMAZ8
I am not talking about the evo.
The fastest cars in the world are rwd. Why? EDIT: sorry.... why are we comparing cars again?? is someone not happy with their purchase and needs to justify it?? |
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