babylou

Not that you would believe anything that is based on science or disagrees with you but here are some 2004 JD Power Initial Quality Survey statistics (1st 6 months of use):

GM (as a whole) = 120 problems/100 cars
Mazda = 157

Lexus (best of all nameplates) = 87
Cadillac = 93
Buick = 100
Chevy = 119
Pontiac = 122
GMC = 127
Saturn = 149

Now how about the 2004 JD Power Vehicle Dependability Study (3 years of use):

GM (as a whole) = 262 problems/100 cars
Mazda = 285

Lexus (best of all nameplates) = 162
Buick = 187
Cadillac = 196
Chevy = 262
GMC = 262
Saturn = 267
Pontiac = 297

DARKMAZ8

That is just plain BS!

TALAN7

I sat in a mazdaspeed miata Saturday while I was waiting for my 30,000 mile maintenance on my 8. I'm 6 foot 200 lbs and I couldn't even get in it and close the door. It's impossible for me to drive that car. The Solstice on the other hand is bigger and better looking (although the front end isn't great, looks to bulbous, needs more hard angles, say a little of Cadillacs art and science). The extra power will make up for the weight, and so will the torque. Also taking into consideration Mazdas penchant for overstating horespower and GMs for understating power, I'm betting the Solstice will outperform the Miata.

babylou

All you have to do is go over to www.jdpower.com to verify the numbers. Either you are too lazy to peruse the JD Power data on their website or are too stupid to understand them. Stupid and lazy is a bad way to go through life.

Gord96BRG

THAT car isn't what we are talking about - the Mazdaspeed Miata is an NB second generation car, and we're talking about the new NC third generation MX-5. On the Miata forum, there are pictures from the current Fire Truck tour showing a couple of 6'3" firefighters (one very stocky, ~240 lbs) sitting in the drivers seat - they fit.

Re extra power making up for the extra weight - that's true for acceleration ONLY. The extra weight is still a detriment for braking, handling, responsiveness. Honda can manage it reasonably well in the (similar weight) S2000 - does anybody seriously think that Pontiac can tune a RWD sports car chassis as well as Honda on their first attempt?

Re Solstice style - it looks pretty good, but in typical Pontiac fashion, there are some terrible elements - what is with those huge round backup lights, sunk into 4" deep sockets in the rear bumper? Ridiculous, ugly, and guaranteed to be restyled out within 2 years.

Regards,
Gordon

dos

I would like to see if VW builds this roadster. VR6 motor with 260 hp.
http://www.vw.com/concept/index.htm

DARKMAZ8

It is sad that someone(YOU!) will believe a statistic without understanding where the results came from.

Japan8

You of all people should know better. That can be very deceiving. Think body proportions... long legs and big feet with a short torso likely means no miata for you...

The final results remain to be seen, but I dunno... I drove a Toyota MR-S (MR-2 Spyder) at the Toyota Motor Web in Odaiba... I barely made into that car. The Miata... haha. You should have seen me trying to drive my in-laws' 'kei' pickup truck they use on the farm... :D

*cough*Corvette C6*cough*

Maybe... mayeb not. I never liked the miata's styling, so maybe we are in two different camps... but the NC's styling is OK... it's growing on me, but I'll never find it dead sexy...

PoorCollegeKid

Out of curiousity, do you have any other reliability data that we can look at, or are you just one of those "domestics are bad, imports are good" fanboys who's reflexively spouting off without any sort of evidence to back up your claims?

Over the last 15 or so years domestics have caught up to and, in some cases, surpassed Japanese brands in reliability and build quality statistics. JD Power may not be the best way to compare two closely matched brands, but it gives a good indication of broader trends and quality gaps. For example, I wouldn't look at those numbers and say that Cadillac has better build quality than Buick, or compare a high end brand like Porsche with a low end brand like Hyundai, but it's safe to say that most GM nameplates are at least on par with Mazda. These companies as how they target the same demographic and offer similar products at similar pricepoints, which eliminates the "luxury/expensive car owners will be more picky about little things than entry level car owners will be" bias. In this case, these numbers are able to tell you something about the relative quality of the products of the two companies, if you understand where the numbers came from and use this knowledge when reading the chart.

therm8

Yes. It's not like they don't have quite a bit of experience tuning Corvettes to handle very well, while weighing 3000+ lbs. And with "inferior" suspension design, according to the anti-domestic snobs. It (kappa chassis) may not handle as well as an S2000, but not many cars do sub $50k. And very few people will drive the Miata and Solstice hard enough to tell the difference, if there is any. Equipped with a longer wheel base, and wider track, the Solstice should be close enough to the NC to make the mags compare them favorably.

Gord96BRG

Corvette department of Chevrolet engineers != Pontiac engineers. Unless told differently by somebody in the know, I certainly wouldn't assume that the same Corvette chassis tuning group spent ANY time on the Solstice/Sky suspension.

So if the potential buyers don't drive the cars hard enough to tell the difference in chassis tuning or performance, then what are they doing with the cars? Just touring? Do you think they might then notice that despite being longer and wider, the Solstice only manages 1/4 of the luggage room of the MX-5 with the tops down? Your microwave oven has more luggage room than a Solstice!!!

Regards,
Gordon

therm8

MOST. Most. I said that the cars would be so close in handling that Most people wouldn't drive the cars to the point where they could tell the difference. Both cars will be able to carry 60 mph thru a 30 mph turn, for example. Which one can go faster? How many people are going to push harder that that? Not many.

I think it's safe to say that an Miata can outhandle an Rx-8, by a small margin. However how many people drive either so hard that they could tell the difference. The Miata will "feel" like it handles better because it's lighter than the 8, but the 8 is very close. Basically, I'm giving GM the benefit of the doubt, while you seem to automatically assume that a heavier, US made roadster is going to handle like a sedan. Personallly i think it'll be on the Rx-8 side of the NC in the handling department.

As to trunk space, I don't know why they had to give up so much. My guess is the wheels out to the corners design result in the sacrifice of a little space. And the only statement of trunk space i've seen is 4cu.ft top up, 2 cu.ft top down. while still not a lot, it's better than 1 :p

Hornet

For a while I think there was an assumption that Chevy wouldn't have to share the Vette's Z06 tuned engine either but strangely the engine ended up in the Cadillac CTS-V and was not watered down in any way. I think GM is feeling the push to regain market share and might be willing to try a few things to include sharing resources that were reserved for their elite! Another thing that I noticed was the talk of them not being able to produce a quality interior...I will say that I have not seen the Solstice in person yet but I think I have heard mention that the GTO has a decent quality interior which to me says they can posibly figure out how to do the same for the Solstice. All this works out to is that we will have to see just how badly GM wants this car to succeed! I personally prefer the looks of the Solstice over the new Miata (based on pictures)!

babylou

At GM there are usually no "Chevrolet engineers" nor "Pontiac engineers". There are platform engineers, powertrain engineers, etc. I have a friend who has worked on the CTS and the new Vette.

Ike

What I wonder is how much these cars were influenced by the Vauxhalls. If there is a decent amount of the VX220s in their bloodline these will handle very well and a future FI model will be a great performer.

truemagellen

I've seen and felt the quality of the Solstice interior and I'm sorry to say but it is very very cheap...the only thing that it accomplishes is to be not as cheap as the Saturn Sky's interior...I've sat in that car, checked out its miniscule trunk, and the interior is not just cheap it is ****.

babylou

You sat in prototypes. Those interiors are not made with production tooling nor materials.

truemagellen

usually the prototype materials are of higher quality and hand crafted...when it comes to the production vehicle cost savings usually trump quality over at GM

but actually I sat in the final pre-production vehicles...so there will only be minor changes to car at this point.

Reactionary

It's going to be Fiero all over again.

Japan8

I seriously doubt that...

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

i'm too young to remember, what caused the demise of the fiero?? a cheap MR coupe sounds like a great idea, see Toyota's success with the SW20 MR2's (those things are HAWT)

Ike

They were not a success sales wise however.

Ellar

Rumours about engine fires plagued the Fiero car line because of a series of incidents in 1984 (the first year of production). At that time, they were only available with the "Iron Duke" 2.5 liter inline 4 cylinder engine. GM paid the supplier who made the connecting rods for that engine by the pound. The supplier started pumping out anything that would pass a cursory visual examination, no matter what condition it was actually in. Then the rods started breaking, punching through the block in some cases. Oil poured out all over the hot exhaust manifold, and ignited. The body of the car was a combination of ABS, fiberglass and some other plastic I can't remember. A simple oil fire could burn the car to the ground in a relatively short time.

There were a very limited number of V6 fires, but that was traced to owners who failed to correct valve cover leaks.

The car was initially pitched to GM as a sporty looking commuter car. The original design borrowed a lot from the front end of the Chevette in front, and the front end of a Citation in the rear. The Fiero parts had their own part numbers, however. It wan't entirely a "parts bin" car. It just used designs that GM already had around.

With the all-new, largely aluminum suspension in the '88 model, GM was worried it would eventually start cutting into Corvette sales with more development. For the time, the V6 version was actually something you could call a sports car. GM doesn't allow anything to go fast, besides the Vette, unless it's got a solid axle in back to slow it down in the turns.

In the last year of Fiero production (1988), sales only dropped to between 5000 and 7500 cars even though all advertisement had been stopped a year before.

Ellar

Oops, I meant 30,000. I think there were like 5000 GT's and 2500 Formulas.

babylou

Simply untrue on several fronts. The interiors for non-production vehicles are junk. It's not like this hasn't been mentioned in every magazine article for every prototype vehicle since biblical times. Additionally, there are no preproduction Sky's running around 12 months before they are to be sold.