druck

What does the Lotus test driver look like in white overalls and helmet???

ChrisW

Rick,

I'll take your word for it on the relative performance of the JDM and UK 350Z's. But I don't know why you thought the time for the Z was slow and requires an explanation. Same as an M3 - seems pretty good. However, if the UK cars are even faster than this, congratulations - I've never doubted that the Z is a very fast car.

You don't need to come up with conspiracy theories to explain why Clarkson likes some cars and not others. Partly its just personal taste (he's always liked VTEC's and other high revving cars) and he makes less effort to be objective than most testers. But he also just likes to be different and say things that will rile people and that he thinks are amusing.

If you think he's just biased against Nissans then how do you explain his comments in Top Gear magazine earlier this year before he had driven the Z. Comparing its styling to the 8 and Crossfire he said it was by far the coolest. And if he wanted to overpraise the Mazda for some machiavelian reason then he wouldn't have said it had dangerous wet weather handling - potentially very serious, if it were true.

You said that Clarkson "lied" to us. I took that to mean about the track time. If not that, then what did he actually lie about?

mr_digital_uk

A couple of things:

I think most of us on here would agree that the 350Z is the faster car; given the torque/straight-line acceleration.

The RX-8 has always proved to be the better handling car and corners more effectively.

Given the above: I would say that the track they tested on doesn't give the 350Z to prove itself in a straight line. JC also probably prefers innovation over brute force and is entitled to his opinion (well-founded or not).

Jon H

Anyway I think he could have got a better time in the RX-8. Did you notice how many corners he managed to slide (some understeer, some oversteer)?. Given a smoother line, the time could improve even more. And before I get flamed, just watch F1 qualifying. Any kind of slide and the lap is ruined. However tight the track and whatever type of car.

druck

Jon H an F1 car is far different from a road cars than a road car is from a gocart - different techniques for different types of vehicle. They dont slide F1 cars, because it degrades the very soft tyres. You do slide gocart because they dont have the power to accelarate out.

On a road car with hard road tyres and far less power, its quicker in some cases to slide round corners to keep the speed up. Understeer and oversteer being used as approprite to ensure the best line and traction coming out of the corner. Its only because the RX8 is so well balanced the driver can chose to understeer or oversteer, as in most other cars, you either get one or the other.

If you do a completely neat lap, it will be slow, if you do a completely leary lap it will also be slow. Getting just the right slide from the right end is why the Stig is the Stig, and you and me are just armchair racers.

Cheers
---Dave

garygfx

If you freeze frame the scoreboard you'll notice the Porsche 911 Turbo is just 0.8 seconds faster than the RX8! I didn't see the show that featured the Porsche but it must have lost a lot of time around the corners.

RickB

Guys,

The 350Z has beaten the M3 on numerous tracks driven by numerous magazines including Road & track, SportZ magazine and a whole host of Japanese magazines.

He certainly didn't lie about the RX8 - stunning car - you wont hear any complaints from me about that one.

The problem on a track between the Z and the RX8 is one of transitions - the RX8 has very good maximum grip levels (around 0.88g on the skidpan) - about the same as the Z. However during transitions - the softness of the 8 suspension costs it time - it takes longer to settle on its suspension to generate maximum grip (hence the reason why the Z is a couple of mph faster through a slalom).

The point of this is - I dont doubt the RX8 time - I doubt the 350Z time - it should of been quicker than the M3.

Based on those stats alone - the 350Z is the more focused handling machine - the RX8 is great - but the 350Z is the more track focussed.

As for the lying part - Clarkson is not telling the truth with the Zed (forget conspiracy theories - it really is true). I'm more than happy to see a back to back comparison of the Z and the 8 on a track - it should heavily favour the Z - with road comparisons - its 50/50 as to which will win.

Either way - I dont think anyone can be criticised for their choice between the 8 and the Z - top cars each !!

RickB

Jon H

D
We'll have to go on disagreeing on that one I think - any slide is loss of energy and forward motion = slower time whatever the vehicle. We dont know how many laps Stig gets to perfect the vehicle he is in, and how much he is geared towards entertaining v. a genuine fastest time. And did you really mean you do slide a go kart? I have done quite a few hundred laps in those and know that a slide is bad news, however spectacular it looks. I am no Stig for sure, but I have been through Silverstone Racing School so a bit more than armchair racer however.
JH

RickB

Jon H,

As was said on Topgear - they slid the RX8 round because the Stig had found that to be the quickest way of doing it.

RickB

RickB

Plus - given the RX8 transitional cornering issues - i.e. it takes longer to settle into a steady state during cornering. Its quicker to drive past that with understeer/oversteer - than it its to wait for the car to set itself up for the corner.

RickB

Murphy

My knowledge isnt deep enough to get into a detailed discussion on suspension transition and the merit of over/understeer vs energy management but it does seem a bit academic in "Real Life"(tm) from the point of view that few of us actually have to drive to work etc through a slalom course or via a track with white race overalls and a helmet on! :D

My final thoughts (for what they are worth) are that the RX8 and 350Z are two brilliant cars and I wish I could have both!

rabinabo

Ok, this argument about whether the 350Z numbers are legitimate is going to go nowhere. We don't know ANYTHING about the way these laps are set up. Did the Stig get practice laps to get used to the car? Was the track wet when he drove the 350Z? Maybe the Stig's style is more suited to the 8 than the Z. Or maybe the Z that was used wasn't the Track edition? Who knows, and better yet, who here cares?

The fact that we can take here is that for whatever the reason, with the same driver the 8 can perform just as well as certain Z's or M3's under certain conditions. That's all. Some people may drive laps better with the Z or maybe with the 8. It all depends on the individual's driving style and what racing line they tend to take, braking, etc.

RobDickinson

The old stig was a F1 driver (almost heh) , the new stig is someone very similar (Jag test driver I think).

Any driver of that caliber will get withing 1/10th of a second round that track of any other drive (i.e. old = new stig). They will need a few laps, but I wouldnt think they'd need more than an hour or so.

The track was dry, else they would have said the 350z was done on a wet track, and on that track I dont think a 350z will get that close (0.8sec) to the porsche in the same conditions (wet).

The 350z is heavier and has a much higher polar moment, and when pushed, on a track where HP matter much less than others, it gets a draw with an RX-8 and an M3.

Whats so hard to comprehend there? We know weight works against cars on that track, why do you thing the high powered but lardy M3 got embarassed by both the Jap cars?

bulkhead

Sorry, but this smacks of choosing one aspect of the RX-8 (i.e. softer suspension) and constructing an arguement based soley on this to suit you opinion. Handling is, as I'm sure we all know, determined by a multitude of variable factors. The RX-8 may well outperform the Z in several of this factors, which means on this particular track, in those weather conditions it can match the Z's time.

One thing I can guarentee is that for me, in "real world" conditions, the RX-8 would usually be about twice as quick as a Z and about the same as an M3. But only because I have both a wife and a son.:D

druck

Yes, you loose energy sliding and slow down, but you have to slow down to go round corners. You can either do that via breaking and trickle round, or induce a slide, and get it pointing in the right direction to put the power down on exit.

The entertainment is Clarkson, burning a set of tyres going sideways and usually backwards (hopeless compared to Tiff), in the first part of the segment. When the Stig is driving, its for speed, and speed alone.

I've always been taught to slide it on the slow corners, as otherwise the small engine gets bogged down, and you have no accelaration comming out. Keep the power down, slide the back round, and the revs are kept up, and it will pull away on exit.

I do find it very difficult to get right, especially on some of the poor surfaces of the outside tarmac circuits. I am much better on the fast corners, where you take them smoothly without sliding.

I'm normally with a pretty hopeless bunch, so I could do with a bit of competition. Let me know if you are planning a session sometime!

Cheers
---Dave

ChrisW

F1 cars have very far from 50:50 weight distribution and as soon as you get the car more than a few degrees out of line the downforce starts to disappear, so you definitely wouldn't want to try hanging the tail out. At the other extreme rally drivers slide their cars a lot (even on tarmac). Who knows what the best technique is for a given road car. If the Stig says that's the best way to drive it on that track then I believe him.

BTW, do you remember Schumacher deliberately sliding his Ferarri through the swimming pool section at Monaco a couple of years ago and getting an amazing qualifying time? It can sometimes work, even with F1 cars (although you probably have to be a genius to pull it off).