Hymee

iTrader: (1)

BVD,

Lighten up. If I was serious about closing the thread, I would have closed it. It was more a tounge in cheek remark, not meant to offend or critisize you.

I did contribute to the discussion, didn't I?

I wasn't cheesed off about anything.

Everyone chill. I wasn't bullying, and no one needed to "stand up to" anything.

Cheers,
Hymee.

rotarenvy

While a sports car should stand a fair amount of abuse, I don't think people should expect a road car to cope flawlessly with track days be it road or drag. These situations place considerably more stress on the car than it would see on the road. Mazda can't engineer for *********. Your car can possibly handle 5 laps of a circuit or 3-5 passes on a drag strip, but the owner has to be aware and stop when the std car can't handle it. People who go to the track generally realise this and I believe the traffic light GP is far harder on the car overall. Mazda normally honours warranties for these people so they should for the rest of the owners. Having said that there has to be a point when the damage is from misuse and not the responsibility of the car company. So we get to that funny situation where to draw the line?

Same thing with modifications: They if the don’t contribute to the failure then they shouldn’t void the warranty. When the modification is linked to the failure, the owner should understand the warranty is void on that failure. The problem with this principle is normally when the service department claims the modification is the problem. Then you have to argue your point and prove the modification didn’t cause the failure. It’s a major hassle. how do you prove the modification didn't contribute?

The "radiator screen" argument anoys me. almost all cars have an unprotected radiator opening! in my 15years of motoring I have never had a stone take out my radiator or other condenser on any of my unprotected cores. statisticaly you are very unlikely to have a rock cause damage. why not say mazda should make indestructable tyres? if you hit a nail (statisticaly more likely) you are unfortunate but you don't go crying to mazda to replace it. why is the condenser any different?

BVD

Great to hear, and thanks for the response.

Maybe you could put one of the little smilie icons in your remarks when you are joking? You do have the power to close threads and you have closed some in the past. It's not always easy for the rest of us to interpret the intent behind remarks like that, or work out quite why you might choose to slip them in. All cool now though.

Perhaps I could now ask you how you feel about warranty issues regarding the aftermarket items that you sell? I'm not having a go at you, or trying to undermine you - quite the reverse. You are uniquely placed among forum members because you have not only fitted mods as an owner, but you've also designed and made them. Your experiences and opinions might help reassure any readers who may be reluctant to fit mods to their cars because they fear warranty problems.

Here's how I see it:

Nobody - not even Mazda - can test components in every conceivable condition and circumstance. So we all have to accept a certain degree of risk.

I lack wind tunnels, test beds or tracks, and specialist airflow expertise, so when I designed my grille I had to rely on general experience, modest (and ongoing) real world testing, plus a large dollop of "gut feeling". But I'm not selling it to the public, and my only customer is myself.

However, as a businessman, I've made and sold many items that I have had to stand by - both morally and legally. I have also made major structural changes to other people's houses which would carry considerable obligations, etc. (If my designs and workmanship had been faulty I would expect to have Revolver and friends hot on my ****... :D ). I've never offered a written guarantee, but that of course means very little when it come to obligations.

Revolver described me as a "bush lawyer" - a phrase that means " a person who gives legal opinions, but is not qualified to do so". It's usually meant in a fairly critical way - although Dave was using it in a friendly jokey way, and appropriately so.

But I think we should all have a touch of bush lawyer in us - i.e have at least some knowledge and opinion about the law. It is said that "ignorance of the law is no defence" or similar phrase. So we all have some obligation to find out about the laws we are supposed to conform to.

Any businessman (or citizen, come to that) would be wise to at least be roughly familiar with some aspects of law. When I did my Engineering course, motor trade law was one of the subjects covered. Not in any great depth, but enough to make us aware of some of the issues in the field we would be working in. A certain amount of knowledge is useful, and actually quite interesting. A little knowledge can of course be dangerous - but only if you're dumb enough to misuse it or mistake it for the full bottle.

So, Hymee, how do you see your obligations with regard to your grilles for instance? Limited to failures in materials and workmanship, or what?

And to all of us - how do you see it? If you put a mod on your car and later have a problem to which that mod might reasonably be said to have contributed, how do you react?

Do you say "XYZ Ltd made the mod, it's therefore their responsibility to make sure that it can't be involved in any possible harm to my car" or do you say "I bought the item and fitted it, so it's my responsibility to assess the risk and then accept it"? Or do you roll up your sleeves and say "let's fight this out".

I thought Timbo put it amusingly but pretty accurately:

How about the rest of us? Do we shrug and say "**** happens" or reach for our lawyer's phone number? :D

labrat

Hmm, I can see this thread being diverted to other matters such as the radiator screen. While we have taken a decision not to fit Hymee's mod, I can see that there is a rationale for it. The RX-8 inlet is very low, and rocks entering at that shallow angle are likely to be moving at higher velocity. While I applaud Hymee's design and workmanship, I would say it would have been easier to sell at home if it did not require drilling into the vitals of the car to install it. A flexible polymer screen which could be simply bent and clipped into place would have been more palatable, but the set up costs for injection moulding are astronomical and could only be justified if you were selling tens of thousands, not dozens, of the suckers. Perhaps there is room for a MkII version which could be fabricated from a polymeric mesh.

As for general modding of the car, several things militate against it for us.

1. Modding is expensive. We simply have other financial priorities.
2. At heart, we're both minimalists. We appreciate simple, unadorned design. Bolting on bits for show isn't our style.
3. Our own driving abilities means we are incapable of exploring the current handling and performance limits of the vehicle, let alone those if it were modded up.
4. We think it is great that the car can perform very well on the track, but we have no desire to get out there and mix it.

All of which makes us excrutiatingly boring, but it does explain why this issue of modding and warranties doesn't have much resonance with us. As a last observation, it certainly makes us glad we bought a new (and not second-hand) sports car. For conservative purchasers, customizing can ring alarm bells.

BVD

Ask Hymee - his condenser was punctured in exactly that way, not long after he bought the car. This motivated him to make the grilles. He has many very satisfied customers, and rightly so. Ask the other owners, both here and in the USA, who have reported on these forums that they have lost their RX8 aircon through stone damage to the condenser. It DOES happen!

The indestructable tyre comparison is fallacious - it's not practical to fit indestructable tyres - but it IS quite simple (and cheap) to fit stone screens.

Perhaps you live in an area where bouncing stones on roads are a rarity - but on many Australian roads they are extremely common and DO regularly cause damage to windscreens, paintwork and headlights, etc. There is a brisk trade in aftermarket headlight protectors - to name just one item - for exactly this reason.

They also DO damage radiators and aircon condensers. If you look carefully at your condenser it's quite thin and lightly constructed, and it is vulnerable.

Why on earth should you be "annoyed" by people's opinions on screens?? Some radiators and aircon condensers are relatively well protected, and other are less so (including the RX8). For those of us who don't just drive around the suburbs a grille is a cheap and useful mod. (In my not so humble opinion of course :D )

Revolver

Glad you took that comment in the spirit intended BVD!

lexic

Let me just say i have a hymee exhaust and a BMC air filter, so far under warranty I have had a new motor, a gearbox rebuilt with new synchro's, mazda have upgraded the starter motor and battery all with out even querying me about the modifications. So I would have no concern what so ever. Mazda do seem to be ok with a few minor changes.

Revolver

This pretty much sums up the attitude my wife and I have to modding our 8, except that I'm still keen to give it a run on the track just for the experience of doing so. Maybe I've got more in common with labrat than our disparate ages would suggest! :D

However, I do see the sense in modifications that are relatively inexpensive and could potentially save a lot of money (especially once the warranty runs out). For that reason I still intend to invest in Hymee's grill (and hopefully the catback for fun) once the budget allows (damnable priorities at the moment!! ).

I cannot see how either would invalidate the warranty per se or cause a problem to the car that would lead to a warranty claim being legitimately refused. If they did, I reckon we'd have heard about it by now.

It is more extreme stuff like FI and/or extensive suspension mods that could lead to that kind of trouble. Experience tells me that you may not think that such mods were responsible for say, a motor failure or some piece of OE suspension breaking on the car through being overstressed, but proving it can be difficult and expensive - consultant engineers also do not come cheap! Of course, for some people these considerations aren't important and I respect that.

Revolver

Doesn't this really answer the questions you have posed BVD??

Ciao

ROFLMAO

Lock you crack me up!!!

Ahh those Canberians!!! ... Home of cheap **** and cheap comments!! :p

Ciao

Dave

labrat

"Disparate Ages"? Is that a bit like disparate housewives, or is that only in New Ziland?

rotarenvy

if you want one, put one on. they may even stop you loosing an radiator. hymee and the others were unlucky IMO. For 15 years I haven't replaced one. my last car (with an even more exposed core) had a truck on the pacific HWY, with a loose load, shower me with stones and I didn't need a screen.
you make it sound like a everyday occurance; how many people on this forum have had stone damage causing failure out of how many cars? It is a statisticaly unlikely event and you wonder why mazda didn't pay attention to you

Revolver

Hahaha! Good comeback labrat! :D :D

labrat

Once more, in defence of Hymee, it is most likely the high velocity stones coming from underneath the wheel of a vehicle in front and entering the intake at high speed that have the potential to do the damage. Remember that kinetic energy is 0.5*mass*velocity^2, so the force with which the rock will strike your core is proportional to the square of the velocity.

I guess I'd like to see something which is easier to fit and doesn't involve invasive surgery on my car.

BVD

It does indeed, and it matches my own opinion, and experience, with regard to how these things generally do go in the real world.

Elsewhere on these forums, and in the media generally, one can always find a heap of pumped up horror stories. We don't always hear enough of the good news, and generally reasonable outcomes to balance the bad. So it's always good to hear the positive stuff.

Revolver

Well that's good then.

Okay Hymee, close 'er down!! :D :D

<buys Lexic a beer>

BVD

Why all the "blah bah blah" description of my post, and the eye rolling about my opinions rotarenvy? And just why does this topic "annoy" you for some reason??

You accuse me of "making it sound like an everyday occurance". Well, it IS an everyday occurrence. I accept that it may not happen to you every day - or ever - but every day cars do get damaged by stones, and in some cases that means aircon condensers and radiators.

In many parts of Australia flying stones in general ARE pretty much an everyday occurrence for some of us too. Most of them miss, many do minor damage to the paintwork, some crack windscreens and headlights, etc. I collected several paint chips and a windscreen chip to the 8 in the first few weeks of owning it. Normal stuff.

And if it's your unlucky day then it might well be the condenser.

Have a look at the "stone's eye view" of the condenser below, and perhaps also have a look at the real thing and note how relatively light gauge the materials are.

Well, I guess that's my fault for writing up a jokey version of events. But in fact I felt they did pay attention to me. They wrote back twice, which was more than I expected, and they passed the concern on to the design department. At least that's what they said, and I've no reason to doubt it - most companies value feedback and do listen, because it pays to do so.

My intention in writing that particular post wasn't to moan about Mazda (sorry if that was the impression I gave) but to make the point that I hadn't written to them with any intention of shafting Hymee, or snitching on him for selling grilles.

Obviously companies don't jump into action every time anybody says anything - of course not. But if everybody who expressed similar opinions on this forums had also written a letter to Mazda, then I expect that they would have at least discussed the issue internally, and perhaps eventually offered a kit or made a change (they still might ). Quite a number of people did agree when we discussed it, and a fair number of us then either made or bought grilles, but I bet that I was pretty much alone in writing a letter.

All motoring is a risk, and if you don't think you'll ever have a problem with that aspect of your car - then that's fine. Nobody is trying to force you to fit a grille - we're just offering some experience and some opinions.

I do know that where I live which is not suburbia - but also isn't the outback or dirt road Australia - but which does have mostly unkerbed roads, the danger to my car is not imagined. I clean the grille fairly often, and generally remove a modest collection of stones, bits of leaves, small sections of sticks, expired insects and other detritus. If I hadn't done some rapid braking the other night I could probably have added "diced pug dog" to the list.

Naturally, the fact that my grille regularly catches stones doesn't prove that all or any of them would have fractured the core, but "statistically unlikely" - no, I don't think so. Round here I would say "statistically well worth considering".

I'm not trying to alarm you (or sell you a grille) just commenting on what I know is true round here.

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

I didn't know labrat was so abhorred by the requirement to "drill into the vitals" of the RX-8 to fit the grill.

Oh dear. It is just a couple of holes in "bracketry" moldings behind the bumper, not the shiny painted bit. I was more abhorred by the guys in the US using cable ties! Oh well. ou can't please em all.

Just remember, my "grill" venture was not about making profits, it was about helping out other like minded folk.

Anyway - that is not really the subject of this topic.

Like has been mentioned, I think it is all about reasonable behaviour and expectations from the owner, and reasonable treatment from the car maker.

As for my products, the only problems have been lessons learnt in packing. A couple of problems in transit. 2 chrome tips on systems to the USA were damage unexplainedly, and that has been sorted out to everyone satisfaction. And one gasket on the first system I sent got a bit damaged.

I guess when you look at most "performance" oriented things, the sorts of warranties you get are for materials / construction. And as soon as you mention the "race" word, all bets are off. Even components sold for racing...

Cheers,
Hymee.

BVD

Stones can be pinged up at quite a clip from under other wheels, as you say.

But for the driving I do, all a stone has to do is just be there at the wrong moment - whether thrown up by someone's wheels, from the air vortex from a passing truck, or whatever.

I'm not pottering around in city traffic (if I was, the issue wouldn't concern me) - I'm usually doing 110 kph on the open road (or similar fine speed..).

At 110 kph I am approaching anything in my path at a rate of 30 metres per second. The condenser may be set a bit back from the opening - but not far. For the sake of discussion let's say 30 cms. It slopes forwards so it's probably closer at the top (I can't measure mine - there's a grille in the way :D )

That 30cms is going to take a stone all of 1/100th of a second to cover. It won't drop much in that time. Even a modest stone (and we are plentifully supplied with a generous selection of sizes) has the potential to do nasty things at that pace.

rotarenvy

Sorry for being so belligerent (boredom on a day off )

I guess it comes back to the question whether mazda should be forced to over engineer? To take into account people modifying/thrashing the car or other events no matter how unlikely and build them bullet proof and crash proof. And if you do the latter someone still complains if they can’t turn stability control off :D

I guess you can try and convince me that ‘rocks taking out the radiator is a common thing’ and I can argue the opposite all day. You use the few on this forum as a statistic to prove it commonplace I use it as the opposite; 3 in hundreds if not thousands. You say rocks hit the front every day and they do. I will use it to prove the probability of rocks hitting the small frontal area of the intake then hitting the cooler is 1 in 100’s or thousands! Then you have to consider some rocks hit the radiator but don’t do any damage. May I ask how long you have been driving for and how many radiators you have replaced due to rocks? Add it all up and you have a better chance of winning the lottery :D. Yes the screens may save you $800 but should mazda need to design for every eventuality (and hymee should have bought a lottery ticket that day IMO).

BVD

Um let’s see….

I’ve been driving for over 45 years – and covered probably close to a million kilometres.

Now…. Busted radiators, due to stone damage….

(counts busily on fingers…. removes shoes and socks and start on toes….)

OK, not many. LOL. How annoying to be honest sometimes. :D


Air conditioner condensers – one only, it copped a stone about 5-10 cms up from the bottom. But then, for much of that 45 years my cars didn’t have aircon. Coincidentally it was on the car that I sold before I bought the RX8 (so I guess the issue was still fairly fresh in my mind. )

Radiators:

Probably also one only. Not a huge tally. :p Over the years I’ve replaced quite a few, but mostly due to age and corrosion. As you say, I’ve seen a lot more that were battered but unbroken. The old radiators were pretty sturdy old things. Some of the modern stuff is a fair bit lighter and cheaper looking though.

However, in the last fifteen years I’ve had five windscreens and one headlight broken by flying stones. And a stone needs to be a lot higher in the air to break a headlight or a windscreen. My guess is that there are more potentially nasty stones skipping around at 20 cms off the ground where the RX8 duct is.

But then you could ask: “And how many times did you think that the combination of usage and the design of the car lead you fit a grille?” And I’d say “in 45 years – only once, with my RX8”

So weren’t the others vulnerable? Well, yes, perhaps some of them were. We have 2 other cars (a 4wd and a sedan) and if you crouch in front of them at the right angle you can see the various rads. In one case it's through its grille, the other through a small exposed area.

In those cars we are usually pottering around at slower speeds, and often on city roads rather than country. And we’re not usually approaching stones at 30 metres a second like I am in the 8 (as mentioned in post above).

Would it be “over-engineered” to fit some kind of grille over the opening! Ha ha! NO it wouldn’t be over-engineered. It’s simple. Remember, I AM an engineer.
Was the Mazda 323 "over engineered" - because the grille on that actually DOES cover the whole intake area. It's not a fine mesh - it's just the same lozenge shape arrangement that the upper part of the RX8 has - but it's a lot better than nothing at all.

Look, I agree that most cars in Australia are owned by people who do little other than puff puff round the suburbs in their pride and joy. Not much statistical danger there! But for us hairy chested types who like to zoom zoom through the countryside just like they do in the ads, a grille is both a fashion statement about how seriously zoomy we are, AND a useful protection. :D :D

PM Hymee now – it’s not too late.

timbo

Isn't it a case of each to his own? (adopts mediatory stance)

I saw what happened to Hymee. As I did a lot of high speed k's, I reckoned it was good insurance. But conversely, I don't carry the ratty little spare tyre. I reckon either the kit will work...or Mazda Assist will deliver me from evil :p

Lock & Load

Kudos were its due the Hymster grill kit is a worthwhile mod if nothing else it will keep out all the debris from entering intu your ride , from memory someone had a dead bird lodged in there somewhere

Hymee being the.IT ... A... Perfectionist Egotistical good guy :p only produces the best of mods , most of them come straight from his RX8 loving heart , :D the money he may make is off secondary importance to him .


B.....free
michael

labrat

Once again; I'm not criticizing, just saying it's not for us. I appreciate what you've done for the RX-8 community, really I do. I'll probably line up for one of your exhaust systems too, when the stock one claps out.

Lock & Load

Hymee just as well all your other customers dont have labrats mindset ROFLMAO :D

NO OFFENCE LABRAT BUT YOU MAY CLAP OUT BEFORE THE STOCK EXHAUST DOES

B...free
michael