Revolver

What about 6.0 litre V8's then?

Look, the real problem is that petrol powered engines are still the most cost-effective (to produce) means of producing the kind of power the market expects.

Until alternative power sources are developed that match that kind of performance for similar purchase price we're still gonna see dinosaur designs.

Revolver

Timbo that's a misuse of stats at it's best.

Your concluding question should be "Who needs a 1964 EH Holden?"

Can we please keep comparisons within the same century?

labrat

With due respect, Revolver, that's the way General Motors has reasoned, and look where it's got them. It comes down to market push versus market pull. Car makers, particularly GM and Ford, have been used to pushing mediocre stuff at eager buyers in the market. The buyers are eager all right, but increasingly not for those products. There's nothing wrong with the Mitsubishi 380, it may even have the wood on Falcodore, so why isn't it selling? My guess it's just the last dinosaur before the extinction. Why is Toyota so successful? Because they make products the punters want. Increasingly, that's for smaller, more economical cars. Similarly, the 3 and the 6 have got Mazda out of a hole.

For what its worth, my bet is that the market will turn to buying more economical cars at the expense of paying more for the drive train, even if the total cost of ownership over a say 5 year period is pretty much the same. Personally, I think the Prius doesn't look too good, and one gets the feeling it is mainly driven by po-faced greens, but I reckon there's a trend there.

Revolver

As usual you're looking at this too scientifically.

If emotion wasn't a huge factor in cars we'd all be driving one of 6-7 differently sized appliances and spending more time considering other forms of art. The fact we're even having this discussion proves that until the manufacturers can make hybrid sexy, it ain't gonna sell.

As for the 380, it isn't selling because it's boring/ugly and people still smell death hanging over Mitsu's Aussie operation. Why would you buy a 380 (if in the market for that kind of thing) when the Falcon and Commodore are both more appealing in a variety of ways?

As for selling more small cars and less large ones - no question. But even the manufacturers are still trying to figure out why that is so. Cost of petrol is obviously a factor for some but the reasons why people choose one car over the other can be multifarious. For example, you champion Toyota but ignore the fact they're soon to release an Avalon replacement onto the domestic market. I'd also argue that the 3 and the 6 have got Mazda out of the hole not because they're small but because they are more attractive and better engineered than Mazda's previous small and mid-sized offerings.

If this fuel crisis deepens it's a no brainer that more small ccars will be sold than large ones but i'll match any bet you care to make that we'll still be seeing Falcodores on the domestic market in 10 years time. You never know though - they may be electric by then.

Oh, and don't worry about paying me due respects. That's the phrase we lawyers use when we disrespect someone's point of view. You should know by now I'm not gonna get sniffy just because you disagree with me.

timbo

My point about the Yaris was precisely to illustrate how far some manufacturers have gone in design and engineering, producing efficient and useful vehicles (I wasn't saying I liked the Yaris...or the EH Holden )

I think we also need to distinguish between 'halo' cars, and those that people actually buy. Current fuel prices make the 8 and any hi po 6/8/10/12 cyl performance cars dead in the water in terms of any notion of volume sales. Two things will happen: the first, the knee-jerk -- whack a diesel in the Falcodore or worse, bring back the 4 cyl model ; the second is true innovation -- lighter weight, space and energy efficient designs that also, through a variety of power trains, offer reasonable (hopefully even high) performance at reasonable cost. At least until the po faced road safety mavens restrict us to <120kph

labrat

I'm not a lawyer, and I do respect what you say. It's a funny thing working in science (a game where you're supposed to tell the truth); some of those habits to tend to migrate to normal life.

Tirminyl

For The Win.

auzoom

Sorry for coming into this really late but been busy at work. I love the look of this car.

On the fuel issue, there was a quote somewhere that if the rotary had had the same amount of investment and research put into it and kept the same rate of progress as it has had in the last 40 years of ratory development then it would far surpass the piston engine.

It will be interesting to see the Japanese hydrogen push versus the european diesel push versus the US Ethanol push.

timbo

Spot on! That's exactly where it's at

Revolver

And I respect your views labby. I also tend to tell the truth - both here and at work (yes, some of us ARE honest).

No offence was intended - I just see and hear 'with respect' every other day and it usually means the opposite.

Revolver

So you think a targa RX8 would be a winner??!!!

Sorry, I'm a fan of the double bubble roof and hate chop tops of any kind.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Revolver

Which one?

Revolver

Okay then

Tirminyl

I am normally a fixed roof guy but certain targa tops gets me going, ala Elise, Zonda, 300z TT, Supra, you get the picture. I think the 8 would sexy as a targa.

Revolver

At the cost of structural rigidity and extra weight? No thanks.

derekwcw

Hi guys,

From the start of this thread, the pictures you all saw are not so much the new RX8, but its actually the concept for the "if it ever comes back" RX7.


Cheers,

Revolver

You may be right but I'm not holding my breath for that either.

We could be driving the last rotary ever made by Mazda for all we know.

mikeyr

Don't you bet on it, that's been said for about the last 20 years!! There is always some closet looney or some dragged out of the box old looney (much praise Hisakazu Imaki san, seriously, great mechanical engineer!) ...........rotary's have been around (in theory) since combustion engine's first began......took a German to make it viable and Japanese persistance to make it fun!

auzoom

I'd say "Took the germans to make it possible and the japanese to make it economical"

mikeyr

more viable...economical????? well????

auzoom

Ha Ha...OK economical "to produce" not run ;-)

auzoom

Sorry to tak ethis off topic for a sec but mikeyr's commetsreminddme of the orbital engine so I went digging to see what had happened to it...I dug up this and it made me laugh (check the politics section) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_engine

That then lead me to this: http://www.revetec.com/?q=node/23 Can I have some o fthat torque please!!!

Andrew

Revolver

The best kind of discussions are those that leap easily from one interesting topic to the next.

I'd forgotten about the Orbital engine temporarily. I now remember the conspiracy theories that were circulated through the press. Everyone was so angry that a great Aussie invention was being buried by a conglomerate.

Thanks for that revetec link. I won't pretend I understood all the concepts discussed but it's great to see people are still enthusiastically developing these kind of ideas.

My comment about the last rotary was probably unnecessarily provocative but at least it brought Mikey back to the board.

Did you get my early departure apologia email Mike? I think I might have sent it to your work addy by mistake.

mac11

iTrader: (1)

This project was too involved and thorough to just be market research.

I have a friend that keeps pointing out the obvious about this "concept car" and that is: why do most concept cars do little more than look pretty, but this one is a fully functional driver that Mazda actually puts on the road?

labrat

I have to agree. Mazda does tend to put out concept cars that seem to make it to market - the RX-Evolv is a case in point. I remember reading an article about the Kabura, wherein Mazda talked about it terms of a "starter" sports car. I can see it as the "next-gen" replacement for the MX-5 hard top. You can speculate about the powertrain, but it will be rear drive. Regardless of what motor they drop in, they're going to have to overcome the Mazda thing about thirsty motors, especially when they're talking about oil getting to USD200/barrel this year.