Revolver

G'day MC - nice to see someone using some logic to defend their weapon of choice. My comments as follows:

Let's get real here and compare apples with apples. Most people start with a budget when car shopping (otherwise we'd all be driving AMs, Fazzas, etc). List price for Coupe 4 is a snip at $90,000 (wow, only $35K more than the RX8 ) and even the GTO is still $25K more expensive.

So you can either buy a genuine 4 seater, designed from the ground up sports car (with all the cohesion and balance that implies), or you can spend significantly more to buy a compromised (albeit competent) large 2 door coupe which is heavier, has a crap transmission and is relatively crude in its styling (I appreciate the last point is subjective). Is that really worth bragging rights for TLGPs or the time some journo pulled on a racetrack?? To me its no contest - maybe explains HSV's catchphrase (i.e. don't ask me to rationalise it, I just want one).

I also query the resale of these things. Remember how happy HSV owners were when each new edition of the V8 was released (e.g. LS1, LS2, etc). Fact is, when your purchasing decision is ruled by basic numbers like kws and 0-100 times, your pride and joy becomes a bit redundant when the power war escalates every year or so. However, my 8 will be just as quick around corners.

No doubt these things are serious weapons and who wouldn't like such a toy parked in their garage for Sunday blats and track day thrills. But really, that's all they are. Unless you're a masochist they're simply not a daily driver. I'd suggest very few people shopping for a car would be tossing up between an RX8 and an Elfin, simply because they are catering for different motoring needs/desires.

Revolver

I'm sorry, but as someone else posted, this is just laughable.

Stories of Holden and HSV quality problems are legion. They are building volume to a price and it shows. No doubt that every now and then the japanese build a lemon but I'd take the average odds of japanese quality over any Holden or HSV product any day of the week.

As for comparing HSV to the AMG and M outfits, I'd suggest that although all three are in the business of modifying production cars, AMG and M begin with a significantly better base car and do a more thorough job.

Revolver

Umm, yeah - a 2 door Commodore with some bells and whistles. Seen it, don't like it.

takahashi

I have yet seen a Holden or Ford V8 clipping the apex nicely under the hand of an ordinary track day driver. It is very trustrating behind one of those thing, you don't want to outbreak them (coz it is against track day rules), but they are heavy enough to muscle you to the kitty litter or to the wall if there is a contact

timbo

Oh dear...I was with you for a while...and then you said that

There's so much more that's better in the world...although I do like the snarl of an angry V8

AMG

Sheeez, my MX5 is just as quick, if not quicker around corners, and will most certainly brake later on a track.

Power isn't everything, just look at the elise.

Sigma

Heh. I'm not saying there's nothing better. But you Aussies love the crap outta your V8s. And European V8s just aren't the same. They don't have that same feeling or sound, ya know?

What HSV and FPV do there is way better what we get here even from the likes of SVT. Yeah, okay, the platforms aren't great, but the concept is good; just need a little better execution and, literally, those two groups could be putting out some extremely nice touring V8s for a moderate pricetag.

Here in the US the Monaro was in high-demand. Until we got it. Now most people would rather you take the GTO back (personally I rather like it). And people still pine for the FPV version of the Falcon but it can't be converted to LHD.

I guess you always want what you don't have.

takahashi

I second that!

Coz I want an Aston Martin DB9 for my birthday

ILIV48

Ohh..... :o :o :o

Sorry Taka, Mia was asking me the other day what to get you for your birthday and I told her I thought you wanted a Ferrari F430. I think she rushed right out to organise it!

Sorry I think I have gone and spoilt your hole birthday. I hope you can learn to live with the Ferrari instead. :D

takahashi

Oh Damn :o

I placed an order for an Aston Martin watch.

Now I have to go to the shop in Elizabeth Street to get the CHEAP Ferrari gear :p

Gomez

Okay, lets stop all this off topic talk about Ferrari's. This is Monaro country......where on a quiet day, you can hear the Coupe 4's rusting .

RXP33D

Why Elizabeth street?

I'll ship you a Fazza watch I can buy from Fairfield Markets for 1/10000th of the price.

I personally think the US market have bad taste coming up with the idea that the

Monaro is god-like. Look at the Viper, years go by and its still hailed and praised...

FOR WHAT?? :S

A European V8 is classic the fact that it uses high tech gear to make it lighter, more free revving etc...

Compare the M5 to the Viper, different cars, where Viper is more the sports appealing,

but honestly, I'm sure to the bones that it's no match for the sports SALOON.

monaroCountry

Believe it or not I still think the LS series engine as being one of the best. Its light, economical, easy to biuld/modify and reliable.

Take for example my 300zx, engine has alot of electronic gizzmos (for its day) but I find it unreliable, thirsty, huge (when its only producing 300hp in stock form) and a pain to work on.

Which one do I prefer? the LS1....................


Some here might not respect the engine/c, some see it as old tech but out of all the different cars ive driven (and engines tried) over the years, the Holdens have been the best. Reliable, comfortable, powerful, roomy, and when something goes wrong parts are cheap and mechanics plentyful (unlike the zed).

monaroCountry

Weight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you explain why a smaller engine displacement with less power/torque and carrying a car with less weight consuming the same (if not more) amount of petrol than a powerful V8?

Revolver

RPM!!! :D :D

Look, I love the sound and low down torque of a well sorted V8. My brother owned an XA GT years ago with a mildly worked 351 Cleveland in it and that thing was great fun.

However, I reckon you're just looking at completely different markets and tastes when comparing the Monaro and the RX8. One appeals to the muscle car set who want raw grunt and aggressive looks whilst I suspect most 8 owners value the car's precision and balance over straight line speed. Tech heads also love the engineering behind the 8.

Great debate though and thanks again MC for your good natured and spirited approach.

monaroCountry

Muscle cars are regarded as bang for your buck. Also they have to have a big displacement V8

Steering feels different compared to smaller cars, however handling is still there. Australian cars have to stand up to australian conditions and bumpy roads. In saying that taking a stock monaro around a track all day isnt if forte, its like taking an RX around the outback (or some suburbs/townships) with undeveloped roads.

However the monaro IS better than the RX in many conditions, thats what makes it such as great car.

I disagree with you. Good cars are designed for one purpose, great cars are designed for multiple purposes.

monaroCountry

No thank you for letting me exercise the good old aussie tradition of bludging..............next up smoko.

In a full days work im doing 7 hrs of surfing/relaxing and 1 hour of actual work.

takahashi

There is that much debate if we only allow to have one car...

Come on, get to work and you can have both Monaro and the RX-8 .

LOL

It is nice to compare cars.... but I will end up wanting all of them :o

monaroCountry

Both AMG and M are expensive as hell, starting price is in the region of 200K here in australia.

Thats a whole lot of $$$$ for not much car.

monaroCountry

The monaro has one of the highest resale values in the market. As for engine/and other upgrades, thats a fact of life, it happens to every vehicle. Imagine R32 owners when the R33 and 34 came out. They might still be happy but i can assure you that manu previous gen owners would rather own the newest and the best.

monaroCountry

The same can be said about the 8 (not from me). The monaro caters for a wider range of need than the 8, the same as the 8 catering for a wider rane when compared to the elfin products.

monaroCountry

Check out the numbers produced, especially from HSV. Compared to other manufacturers (yes even those wearing euro badges) I wouldnt call them a volume builder. For example for next year Holden will only be producing less than 2,000 monaros and around 12,000 GTO's. How many BMW M3 and M5 will be produed?

monaroCountry

Ummm right

takahashi

If the Skyline is allow to go on.. I am sure they will get higher and higher numbers.

I think the Holden's has run out of letters for their VIN number coz they revise it so much. They can afford that, coz their profit margin is so much on each car (cheaper labour, cheaper parts, and cheaper design) and people are queuing up to buy them.

It is only up to "E" for the rotary after 30 years.... and there is no news for the "F" :o

monaroCountry

Good idea, im off to lunch now.