REVIEW: Ric Shaw Controller - Fitted
03-18-2004, 03:05 AM
#51
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Give the man a ring - he is very friendly and approachable, but not very internetty. (more comfortable with a spanner in his hand, or bucketsfull of oppisite lock.)
When I visited he was quite happy to give me a price, fitted and tuned.
jack
When I visited he was quite happy to give me a price, fitted and tuned.
jack
03-18-2004, 03:12 AM
#52
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BVD
I would suspect if Ricks unit was up and running correctly surely it would be offered for sale on the forum , it obviously still at the testing stage similar to Canzoomers , VERSION for the Australian market .
Had my car RE;flashed on wednesday , it seems to be running smoother and also seems louder .
My ECU is same as HYMEES ending with the letter.... E
When i finally get maurices stage 1 unit back with the new " L "program i will test it once again on the Austalian mapped ECU , however this time i will be a lot more cautious and have the proper tools and the help of a rotary expert to specifically test the A/F RATIOS and make sure the car is running safe , AND GET IT TUNED TO THE AUSTRALIAN RX8 MAP.
Hopefully this time we can get it right , if not i will have to stay content with the stock standard ECU unit .
i maybe adding one of the stainless steel HYMEE exhausts , with different tips at a later stage
CHEERS
MICHAEL
I would suspect if Ricks unit was up and running correctly surely it would be offered for sale on the forum , it obviously still at the testing stage similar to Canzoomers , VERSION for the Australian market .
Had my car RE;flashed on wednesday , it seems to be running smoother and also seems louder .
My ECU is same as HYMEES ending with the letter.... E
When i finally get maurices stage 1 unit back with the new " L "program i will test it once again on the Austalian mapped ECU , however this time i will be a lot more cautious and have the proper tools and the help of a rotary expert to specifically test the A/F RATIOS and make sure the car is running safe , AND GET IT TUNED TO THE AUSTRALIAN RX8 MAP.
Hopefully this time we can get it right , if not i will have to stay content with the stock standard ECU unit .
i maybe adding one of the stainless steel HYMEE exhausts , with different tips at a later stage
CHEERS
MICHAEL
03-18-2004, 04:25 AM
#54
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Originally posted by Gomez
L&L, what flash???
Was it done by Mazda, I'm sure the labrat would be interested to hear!!!
Gomez.
L&L, what flash???
Was it done by Mazda, I'm sure the labrat would be interested to hear!!!
Gomez.
As he could not tell me what my earlier ECU had programmed in it he told me that the latest disk download he had from MAZDA was the E coded one .
Paid $ 66.00 for the re:flash which i felt was a rip off but my car does seem to run smoother and the exhaust note is definetely louder.
Service told me that they finally had the rotary mazda oil in stock , cheerfully i wondered over to spare parts only to be told that they had never heard of the rotary oil .
After insisting that yes they did have the oil , the chap from spare parts finally got his act together after 15 minutes and found the plentifull supply all 4 liters of the oil , I PROCEDED AND BOUGHT 2 LITERS at $ 24.00.
He proceeded to apologise and was quite honest as he stated that Mazda was a hopeless company to deal with never telling their own staff what goes on with their own products .
I cannot believe that they only had 4 liters in stock ????
The head mechanick that installed the re:flash also said that MAZDA kept most information closely guarded and even he had problems accessing it .
MAZDA you are a F%^^&ing joke as far as a company is concerned your products are good but your service and customer relations suck .
Even people that work for mazda have twice stated this to me .
I asked for a costing to change oil in differential , transmission and gear box its been 10 days and no one has got back to me with a price for the job .
CHEERS
Michael
03-18-2004, 05:57 AM
#55
L&L,
Did I hear you correctly? They charged you $66 to "reprogram" your car, but they didn't check what was "in" it first?
FFS - That is not the sort of service I would be happy with.
Your car, since it was newer than mine, might have had a older tune in it, but you said the sticker was the same as mine.
This is such a confusing issue hey? And to think when we deliver software we make sure that the customer can tell fairly easily exactly what version/build number they have as it is helps a lot from a support point of view.
I emailed mazda the otherday about what the "CalID" my car should have had in it from the factory, and what newer versions where available. No reply so far.
Cheers,
Hymee.
Did I hear you correctly? They charged you $66 to "reprogram" your car, but they didn't check what was "in" it first?
FFS - That is not the sort of service I would be happy with.
Your car, since it was newer than mine, might have had a older tune in it, but you said the sticker was the same as mine.
This is such a confusing issue hey? And to think when we deliver software we make sure that the customer can tell fairly easily exactly what version/build number they have as it is helps a lot from a support point of view.
I emailed mazda the otherday about what the "CalID" my car should have had in it from the factory, and what newer versions where available. No reply so far.
Cheers,
Hymee.
03-18-2004, 06:40 AM
#56
New Member
Originally posted by Gomez
L&L, what flash???
Was it done by Mazda, I'm sure the labrat would be interested to hear!!!
Gomez.
L&L, what flash???
Was it done by Mazda, I'm sure the labrat would be interested to hear!!!
Gomez.
03-18-2004, 02:00 PM
#57
Originally posted by Lock & Load
... however this time i will be a lot more cautious and have the proper tools and the help of a rotary expert to specifically test the A/F RATIOS and make sure the car is running safe, AND GET IT TUNED TO THE AUSTRALIAN RX8 MAP.
... however this time i will be a lot more cautious and have the proper tools and the help of a rotary expert to specifically test the A/F RATIOS and make sure the car is running safe, AND GET IT TUNED TO THE AUSTRALIAN RX8 MAP.
I am not pretending to be a "Rotary Expert", but you were cautious last time. Remember?? We went for a gentle drive and checked the AFR via the wideband O2 sensor and the on board diagnostics. Then we went a bit harder, and made sure it wasn't running too lean, before we did some measured acceleration runs.
This is exactly how the Rotary Guru did initial AFR tests on the Ric Shaw unit. When we get on the Dyno we will use an additonal WBO2 sensor.
The AFR's that emack had measured and provided to Maurice were the catylist for him to say "danger - stop using it", yet he himself said that there was an obvious error in the figures.
It is very wise that you are getting the new unit tuned to the Aussie map. But you need to know exactly what map is in your car, otherwise the tune put into your CZ unit will be of no benefit to other Aussie RX-8 owners.
BTW - I am pretty certain, after driving around for 1+ weeks with the Ric Shaw unit fitted, that there are noticably less black deposits in the exhaust tips.
Cheers,
Hymee
03-18-2004, 09:15 PM
#58
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Originally posted by Lock & Load
BVD
I would suspect if Ricks unit was up and running correctly surely it would be offered for sale on the forum , it obviously still at the testing stage similar to Canzoomers , VERSION for the Australian market .
BVD
I would suspect if Ricks unit was up and running correctly surely it would be offered for sale on the forum , it obviously still at the testing stage similar to Canzoomers , VERSION for the Australian market .
Maybe this Christmas will be a time to look forward too.
Cheers, Chris.
04-07-2004, 01:49 AM
#60
New Member
A month on... what has happened to it, Hymee?
I am interested in a piggyback you know... does it need to be retuned?
RIC where are you???
I am looking for an ECU for so long that I am running out of patience. Hymee, I have step on the grasshopper and kill it
I am interested in a piggyback you know... does it need to be retuned?
RIC where are you???
I am looking for an ECU for so long that I am running out of patience. Hymee, I have step on the grasshopper and kill it
04-07-2004, 07:34 AM
#62
I have not had the time to scratch since my car was re-tuned. It happened last Tuesday, and the car was serviced Wednesday and I went on The Big Drive on Thursday - Sunday.
I submit my report on the Ric Shaw piggy back controller:
The RIC SHAW controller has a mild tune in it, and it only was programmed to take effect at mostly heavy throttle settings.
Firstly, we ran a base dyno run with the controller off to check against the previous baseline. (Note, the car has the HymeeEnhanced Catback fitted). The results were very comparable - which is what we wanted,
Second, we did a run with the RIC SHAW unit turned on. This showed some gains (See "COLD / WARM" dyno chart).
Thirdly, GTP (Guru Tuner Partner / Guru Tuner Phil) spent about an hour or more adjusting the mixtures at practically every RPM and load point (aka throttle setting) above about 25% throttle. The "Standard" RIC SHAW tune only effected about 70% throttle and above. The changes made at each of these load points was done to get the mixture to the ideal power making ratio of around 12.8 - 13.2 range. This was checked at each RPM/Load point using a wideband O2 sensor in conjunction with the dyno holding the RPM's at each desired setting, and applying full load - The operator (GTP) stepped through the throttle positions.
This is very time consuming, and really puts some heat into the drivetrain.
The result --- Wait for it --- An improvement of around 18HP at the tyres.
DON'T STOP READING - IMPORTANT INFO FOLLOWS
To check a measurement like this, it is normal, if possible, to change back to the "baseline" configuration and re-measure. Fortuneately this is easy with the controller being tested. So we turned it off, and - wow a ~9HP improvement over stock. Wait a minute - it is stock! WTF??? WTF??? WTF???
So the car had heated up more than normal, the oil in the tranny and the oil in the diff would have been runnier than normal. The crap in the cat probably got a good burn-off, and the plugs probably cleaned up a bit as well. Letting the car get really hot let us make more measured power.
So the car probably gained ~10HP at the wheels comparing apples to apples. Something to think about...
Also - my car did go into "safe mode". Not that it made it any worse. The ABS and TC lights came on. But we still made good repeatable power. We "reset" the ABS/TC lights, and tried again. Without "safe mode" the car makes LESS POWER. With "Safe Mode" triggered the car makes MORE POWER! It goes against everything we have painstakingly learnt up to that point. Go figure.
But the car does drive much better with the Hymee Enhanced Tune. It is crisper, and pulls stronger. This is noticable on full throttle, and even on part throttle. I feel it even "feels" crisper with cruise control activated. That is a real weird thing to say in public, but I believe this is due to the extra spark advance dialled in, as a feature of the RIC SHAW unit.
The Hymee Enhanced tune-up was to suit my PCM, which is currentlt the "E" flash. I have spent some time experimenting with the unit on a car with a "D" flash. There were issues (as expected) but Wildcard did say he felt the car was more responsive.
Attached is about the most honest dyno chart comparisons I can give. I could also give you the "cold / stock" run v's the "hot / tuned" run for you to see the amazing power gains. But I won't - I am trying to give an honest and accurate results as possible. Like GTP said, "There are too many variables on a chassis dyno. The engine dyno reduces those variables considerably." Thank goodness GTP has access to a engine dyno facility. I have seen him tuning a 1000HP triple-turbo 20B on it.
For best comparisons, I will give two charts. A "Cold" chart comparing the Standard Tune with the RIC SHAW piggy back "as is", and a "Hot" chart comparing the Standard Tune to the RIC SHAW piggy back with the [i]Hymee Enhanced[/b] Tune.
"COLD"
"HOT"
Notice the useable power increase right through the rev range, except for the very bottom. What the graph doesn't show is part throttle. As stated above we have improved things noticable on part throttle as well.
The only other info I have is that we ran out of time, and GTP thinks there is more refinement to be done.
All the best,
Hymee
I submit my report on the Ric Shaw piggy back controller:
The RIC SHAW controller has a mild tune in it, and it only was programmed to take effect at mostly heavy throttle settings.
Firstly, we ran a base dyno run with the controller off to check against the previous baseline. (Note, the car has the HymeeEnhanced Catback fitted). The results were very comparable - which is what we wanted,
Second, we did a run with the RIC SHAW unit turned on. This showed some gains (See "COLD / WARM" dyno chart).
Thirdly, GTP (Guru Tuner Partner / Guru Tuner Phil) spent about an hour or more adjusting the mixtures at practically every RPM and load point (aka throttle setting) above about 25% throttle. The "Standard" RIC SHAW tune only effected about 70% throttle and above. The changes made at each of these load points was done to get the mixture to the ideal power making ratio of around 12.8 - 13.2 range. This was checked at each RPM/Load point using a wideband O2 sensor in conjunction with the dyno holding the RPM's at each desired setting, and applying full load - The operator (GTP) stepped through the throttle positions.
This is very time consuming, and really puts some heat into the drivetrain.
The result --- Wait for it --- An improvement of around 18HP at the tyres.
DON'T STOP READING - IMPORTANT INFO FOLLOWS
To check a measurement like this, it is normal, if possible, to change back to the "baseline" configuration and re-measure. Fortuneately this is easy with the controller being tested. So we turned it off, and - wow a ~9HP improvement over stock. Wait a minute - it is stock! WTF??? WTF??? WTF???
So the car had heated up more than normal, the oil in the tranny and the oil in the diff would have been runnier than normal. The crap in the cat probably got a good burn-off, and the plugs probably cleaned up a bit as well. Letting the car get really hot let us make more measured power.
So the car probably gained ~10HP at the wheels comparing apples to apples. Something to think about...
Also - my car did go into "safe mode". Not that it made it any worse. The ABS and TC lights came on. But we still made good repeatable power. We "reset" the ABS/TC lights, and tried again. Without "safe mode" the car makes LESS POWER. With "Safe Mode" triggered the car makes MORE POWER! It goes against everything we have painstakingly learnt up to that point. Go figure.
But the car does drive much better with the Hymee Enhanced Tune. It is crisper, and pulls stronger. This is noticable on full throttle, and even on part throttle. I feel it even "feels" crisper with cruise control activated. That is a real weird thing to say in public, but I believe this is due to the extra spark advance dialled in, as a feature of the RIC SHAW unit.
The Hymee Enhanced tune-up was to suit my PCM, which is currentlt the "E" flash. I have spent some time experimenting with the unit on a car with a "D" flash. There were issues (as expected) but Wildcard did say he felt the car was more responsive.
Attached is about the most honest dyno chart comparisons I can give. I could also give you the "cold / stock" run v's the "hot / tuned" run for you to see the amazing power gains. But I won't - I am trying to give an honest and accurate results as possible. Like GTP said, "There are too many variables on a chassis dyno. The engine dyno reduces those variables considerably." Thank goodness GTP has access to a engine dyno facility. I have seen him tuning a 1000HP triple-turbo 20B on it.
For best comparisons, I will give two charts. A "Cold" chart comparing the Standard Tune with the RIC SHAW piggy back "as is", and a "Hot" chart comparing the Standard Tune to the RIC SHAW piggy back with the [i]Hymee Enhanced[/b] Tune.
"COLD"
"HOT"
Notice the useable power increase right through the rev range, except for the very bottom. What the graph doesn't show is part throttle. As stated above we have improved things noticable on part throttle as well.
The only other info I have is that we ran out of time, and GTP thinks there is more refinement to be done.
All the best,
Hymee
Last edited by Hymee; 04-07-2004 at 07:41 AM.
04-07-2004, 07:49 AM
#64
You must have got some typo's that I quickly edited out. Try a browser refresh. Remember it makes more power with the ABS thingy. There was definately a log in the machine that recorded 200+, but I didn't plot that one out. Tried to get something representative.
04-07-2004, 08:00 AM
#66
Censorship??? Anyone can edit their posts here. I fixed my mistake before anyone replied.
FI: Not a real lot yet. One step at a time I suppose. I recall with the LS1's the early guys who went straight to "cracking" their motors and putting cams in and making good power, but eventually the same or more power was being found in an un-opened motor with a good intake/exhaust/tune. Like I said, One step at a time...
I have thought alot about how I would like a supercharger though :D
Cheers,
Hymee.
FI: Not a real lot yet. One step at a time I suppose. I recall with the LS1's the early guys who went straight to "cracking" their motors and putting cams in and making good power, but eventually the same or more power was being found in an un-opened motor with a good intake/exhaust/tune. Like I said, One step at a time...
I have thought alot about how I would like a supercharger though :D
Cheers,
Hymee.
04-07-2004, 08:02 AM
#68
Originally posted by Lock & Load
Takahashi
I have driven Hymees car with the rickshaw piggyback unit i will tell you what i think when i see you on thursday .
cheers
michael
Takahashi
I have driven Hymees car with the rickshaw piggyback unit i will tell you what i think when i see you on thursday .
cheers
michael
LOR!
Cheers,
Hymee.
04-07-2004, 08:23 AM
#69
New Member
Oh well he just have some secret to tell me... maybe he REALLY did some wankeling with a mother and daugther :D
Hymee, I think you have the BEST post by far. I think I am so much an Australian now I don't understand a word that the American are saying. You make it sound so simple.
So like in medicine, people like pathologist (like me) will talk about the lump in your arm is a seborrheic keratosis, displaying features of hyperkeratosis, parakeratosis, acanthosis and papilliomatosis with inclusion horn cysts but without displasia. You have a stupid surgeon who take it out and told you that it is a benign skin lesion, don't worry about it
Oh well.. I wish I live in Brisbane now. So I can actually get some similar tuning done. Go Hymee.
I think the Hymee' s explanation is believable.... at least I understand what he has done... I wonder I can do the same here...
Hymee, I think you have the BEST post by far. I think I am so much an Australian now I don't understand a word that the American are saying. You make it sound so simple.
So like in medicine, people like pathologist (like me) will talk about the lump in your arm is a seborrheic keratosis, displaying features of hyperkeratosis, parakeratosis, acanthosis and papilliomatosis with inclusion horn cysts but without displasia. You have a stupid surgeon who take it out and told you that it is a benign skin lesion, don't worry about it
Oh well.. I wish I live in Brisbane now. So I can actually get some similar tuning done. Go Hymee.
I think the Hymee' s explanation is believable.... at least I understand what he has done... I wonder I can do the same here...
04-07-2004, 03:38 PM
#70
Taka,
There is no reason why this "tune-up" wouldn't work on any other RX-8 with the same PCM flash.
Some people might prefer to just to have a plug and play solution. Others might prefer to spend the extra time / equipment in verifying / tweaking it for their individual car.
For cars with such low levels of mods (as most RX-8's are at the moment), then the "mail order tune" option will probably get pretty close to optimum. The factory tune / reflashes are basically a plug and play, or "mail order" style of thing.
What we need to do is to try the same tune on a few different vehicles with the same PCM flash and see how they compare.
Cheers,
Hymee.
(EDIT: I have tried the tune on an "D" flash car that was re-flashed. We did not know for sure the actual re-flashed calibration, but assumed it was E. It showed some gains with an in-car dyno, but not the same level as I experienced in my car. Refer to https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=26089)
There is no reason why this "tune-up" wouldn't work on any other RX-8 with the same PCM flash.
Some people might prefer to just to have a plug and play solution. Others might prefer to spend the extra time / equipment in verifying / tweaking it for their individual car.
For cars with such low levels of mods (as most RX-8's are at the moment), then the "mail order tune" option will probably get pretty close to optimum. The factory tune / reflashes are basically a plug and play, or "mail order" style of thing.
What we need to do is to try the same tune on a few different vehicles with the same PCM flash and see how they compare.
Cheers,
Hymee.
(EDIT: I have tried the tune on an "D" flash car that was re-flashed. We did not know for sure the actual re-flashed calibration, but assumed it was E. It showed some gains with an in-car dyno, but not the same level as I experienced in my car. Refer to https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...threadid=26089)
Last edited by Hymee; 04-21-2004 at 02:42 AM.
04-08-2004, 02:43 PM
#73
Chris,
When I say lean, I should say "less rich". When you are cruising along, the computer is chasing 14.7:1 AFR (this is closed loop). I have proved this with my OBDII monitoring of the wideband O2 sensor. 14.7:1 is the ideal, or stoichometric AFR for petrol/gasoline. The RX-8 does a very, very good job of this when in closed loop mode.
When aiming for power and the computer has come out of closed loop into open loop, we try to get a richer AFR than "stoich". A number lower then 14.7 is richer. Around 13.1:1 is what is typically aimed for. The factory "E" tune gives AFR's in the 12's and even dips into the 11's at times. This is what some term "pig rich". So even though we are getting a leaner mixture, it is still richer than ideal - just less rich than factory.
Does that make sense?? If not I can try to explain some more.
Cheers,
Hymee.
When I say lean, I should say "less rich". When you are cruising along, the computer is chasing 14.7:1 AFR (this is closed loop). I have proved this with my OBDII monitoring of the wideband O2 sensor. 14.7:1 is the ideal, or stoichometric AFR for petrol/gasoline. The RX-8 does a very, very good job of this when in closed loop mode.
When aiming for power and the computer has come out of closed loop into open loop, we try to get a richer AFR than "stoich". A number lower then 14.7 is richer. Around 13.1:1 is what is typically aimed for. The factory "E" tune gives AFR's in the 12's and even dips into the 11's at times. This is what some term "pig rich". So even though we are getting a leaner mixture, it is still richer than ideal - just less rich than factory.
Does that make sense?? If not I can try to explain some more.
Cheers,
Hymee.
04-08-2004, 03:33 PM
#74
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It makes sense. What I don't understand is, if the computer is so good controlling the AFR within tight limits, how come Mazda (factory "E") are so conservative? Why do they want to cool things down? What's the risk they are not willing to take? With all the bucketing they have got on fuel consumption, there must be a compelling reason.
Chris
Chris
04-08-2004, 04:16 PM
#75
The computer is good at controlling the AFR in tight limits when in "closed loop". This is basically at light throttle / cruise. When it is out of closed loop, it does not have a feedback "loop" where it is adjusting the mixture based on the the O2 sensor. Instead, it is looking up a fuel delivery table.
As an argument to your question...
Well, I guess if the "fuel delivery table" in the factory "D" flash was so "perfect", why did they release a "E" flash??
We know the fuel delivery is different in the E compared to the D. And now there is the "F" flash. But we don't know what has changed with that. It might be something other than fuel... Who knows.
It is all about continual improvement. Lots of software ships without being "perfect".
Cheers,
Hymee.
As an argument to your question...
Well, I guess if the "fuel delivery table" in the factory "D" flash was so "perfect", why did they release a "E" flash??
We know the fuel delivery is different in the E compared to the D. And now there is the "F" flash. But we don't know what has changed with that. It might be something other than fuel... Who knows.
It is all about continual improvement. Lots of software ships without being "perfect".
Cheers,
Hymee.