Review of AP racing (4 pot) caliper, Project Mu rotor (F), DBA (R), HC+ pads
08-16-2006, 01:48 AM
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Review of AP racing (4 pot) caliper, Project Mu rotor (F), DBA (R), HC+ pads
Here is my new braking force!
It is a 4 pot AP Racing caliper (CP 6600).
Two piece aluminium alloy body, differential bores, aluminium alloy pistons with dirt seals, radial mount, available with red or black paint surface.
Piston area = 38.1mm x 2 / 41.3mm x 2
The front caliper is matched with Project Mu SCR-PRO rotor and Project Mu HC+ brake pads. A set of Racing 999 brake pad has also been purchased.
The Rear is not important in braking term and getting Project Mu rotor for the rear may be too much of the expensive option. So I opted for slightly cheaper but similar in performance option. A DBA 4000 series. Also slotted. It is matched with the braking power of Project Mu HC+.
Why AP Racing Caliper you may ask.
There are many calipers available in the aftermarket arena for the RX-8. GREX (Greddy/Trust) 6 Pot, Endless 6pot mini, Project Mu Racing 4 pot (4 pads - 4x4) or the Project Mu Racing 6 pot. Alcon and Brembo has one available too.
AP racing has good reputation and there are many after market pads that is available for the caliper that Ric Shaw chose. Yes I ordered this set via Ric Shaw and after following his car with him in the driving seat at Wakefield last October. I know that it is more than his right foot (or left?) on the brake pedal that did the trick. I wanted this caliper the moment I saw it.
The kit comes with Goodridge Brake line, SBS pro-touring pads and spacer for the stock RX-8 rims and rotors. The kit is from AP Racing with model number CP-6600 and it is the leading caliper (caliper in front of the axle). I sort of wonder but after looking at the stock caliper I know why. The brake line stud is upside down. The rotor using with this kit is stock size.
I also think that upsiding it will be benefitical. And why not when you spend $2.5K for the whole kit. But think of it. I have to stick with the rotor that the company supplies and the pad that they use. There is no company making pads for GREX caliper other than the company themselves! After that I decided not to go for Endless until they put their act together and get some all round fast street/ circuit pads together.
I think of project mu 6 pot caliper since I like their pads a lot, but the downside of it is there is no information at hand that what sort of offset the caliper will give. That is, the clearance from the stock wheel and the spacer it requires. It will be disaster if I found out that the caliper is too fat for even my Enkei RP-03.
So I triple confirm with Ric and measure it up before I order the AP. It fits perfectly to the stock rotor.
There are many pads for the AP to choose from.
From Europe - Ferodo, SBS, EBC, Pagid, etc.
From Japan - Project Mu, Endless and Seido-ya
I guess I decide to go for Project mu pads since they have the series from HC (0-800C) and Racing 999 (200-900C) to choose from.
Since I use the EBC and only lasted for 4 track days, cold pad force is a problem, and initial bite is not existance. I would want something that would allow initial bite. So EBC and most euro pads are out. I will track it too so the Endless pads are out.
So Project Mu it is! For your info.
Project Mu HC+ 0-800degrees , 0.32-0.60 brake co-eff
Project Mu NR 0-650, 0.33-0.43
Project Mu B-Spec 0-500, 0.32-0.45
Project Mu NS 0-400, 0.37-0.40
I ended choosing the Project Mu HC+ fronts and rears. And a spare Racing 999 for track use. But for Winter months (and the first track day), I will use the HC+ to track.
http://www.project-mu.co.jp/e/product/hc-plus.html
Just a quick note on compounds, 3 main compounds now-a-days are: non asbestos, semi-metallic, carbon composite and full metallic. The HC+ are a semi-metallic carbon compound.
I was worried about the optimum operating temps for the HC+ as they were rated 0-800! Heard from others people that the ‘sweet’ spot of the pads might not be very useable on street and there is questionable controability (or grading in terms of applying braking force).
My first impression:
STREET:
Contary to prediction my breaks did not squeal at all. I had squeals on my MazdaSpeed and EBC but this time none! Once I bedded them in (multiple times of 45km/h stops). The initial bite was noticeably harder (and harder than anything else I have tried). The control is fine on the street and there is noticable grading of 1/10-5/10 (in many steps). I have not tried beyond 5/10 of this pads on the street and I don't need to for daily driving. This is perfect for street driving, there’s a little more bite than the EBC for sure and probably to the MazdaSpeed pads. But the bite could be related to a huge difference in the surface area of the AP caliper style pads to the stock caliper pad size.
The fun of this amazing power - Dust! Well….. let’s just say I’m going to have to clean my rims more often now….. and it is a pain.
Track review of the AP racing caliper and the Project Mu rotor (front), DBA rotor (rear). HC+ pads.
The brake is EXCELLENT!
There are some review of the Project Mu HC+ pads have poor brake control and not suitable for S tyres (R-spec) tyre. Rubbish. These brakes are wonderful. They can be trail braked, the car is great balance under brake and into the corner. There is minimal weight transfer when you finish with it. They cut my braking distance by at least 25m in the (8000rpm - to 2nd gear) 3rd gear corner and 50m in the (6000rpm to 3rd gear) 4th gear corner (about 160kph).
There is no fade at all. The rear rotor indicator is only burnt on the first one. The groove is great to get rid of the heat and there is no problem at all after 7-8 laps.
The pad pull up very very well after 39 laps at Winton raceway. More than 70% left.
As a result, I am 0.2 sec quicker and getting a 1 sec better consistent time. I am very happy.
It is a 4 pot AP Racing caliper (CP 6600).
Two piece aluminium alloy body, differential bores, aluminium alloy pistons with dirt seals, radial mount, available with red or black paint surface.
Piston area = 38.1mm x 2 / 41.3mm x 2
The front caliper is matched with Project Mu SCR-PRO rotor and Project Mu HC+ brake pads. A set of Racing 999 brake pad has also been purchased.
The Rear is not important in braking term and getting Project Mu rotor for the rear may be too much of the expensive option. So I opted for slightly cheaper but similar in performance option. A DBA 4000 series. Also slotted. It is matched with the braking power of Project Mu HC+.
Why AP Racing Caliper you may ask.
There are many calipers available in the aftermarket arena for the RX-8. GREX (Greddy/Trust) 6 Pot, Endless 6pot mini, Project Mu Racing 4 pot (4 pads - 4x4) or the Project Mu Racing 6 pot. Alcon and Brembo has one available too.
AP racing has good reputation and there are many after market pads that is available for the caliper that Ric Shaw chose. Yes I ordered this set via Ric Shaw and after following his car with him in the driving seat at Wakefield last October. I know that it is more than his right foot (or left?) on the brake pedal that did the trick. I wanted this caliper the moment I saw it.
The kit comes with Goodridge Brake line, SBS pro-touring pads and spacer for the stock RX-8 rims and rotors. The kit is from AP Racing with model number CP-6600 and it is the leading caliper (caliper in front of the axle). I sort of wonder but after looking at the stock caliper I know why. The brake line stud is upside down. The rotor using with this kit is stock size.
I also think that upsiding it will be benefitical. And why not when you spend $2.5K for the whole kit. But think of it. I have to stick with the rotor that the company supplies and the pad that they use. There is no company making pads for GREX caliper other than the company themselves! After that I decided not to go for Endless until they put their act together and get some all round fast street/ circuit pads together.
I think of project mu 6 pot caliper since I like their pads a lot, but the downside of it is there is no information at hand that what sort of offset the caliper will give. That is, the clearance from the stock wheel and the spacer it requires. It will be disaster if I found out that the caliper is too fat for even my Enkei RP-03.
So I triple confirm with Ric and measure it up before I order the AP. It fits perfectly to the stock rotor.
There are many pads for the AP to choose from.
From Europe - Ferodo, SBS, EBC, Pagid, etc.
From Japan - Project Mu, Endless and Seido-ya
I guess I decide to go for Project mu pads since they have the series from HC (0-800C) and Racing 999 (200-900C) to choose from.
Since I use the EBC and only lasted for 4 track days, cold pad force is a problem, and initial bite is not existance. I would want something that would allow initial bite. So EBC and most euro pads are out. I will track it too so the Endless pads are out.
So Project Mu it is! For your info.
Project Mu HC+ 0-800degrees , 0.32-0.60 brake co-eff
Project Mu NR 0-650, 0.33-0.43
Project Mu B-Spec 0-500, 0.32-0.45
Project Mu NS 0-400, 0.37-0.40
I ended choosing the Project Mu HC+ fronts and rears. And a spare Racing 999 for track use. But for Winter months (and the first track day), I will use the HC+ to track.
http://www.project-mu.co.jp/e/product/hc-plus.html
Just a quick note on compounds, 3 main compounds now-a-days are: non asbestos, semi-metallic, carbon composite and full metallic. The HC+ are a semi-metallic carbon compound.
I was worried about the optimum operating temps for the HC+ as they were rated 0-800! Heard from others people that the ‘sweet’ spot of the pads might not be very useable on street and there is questionable controability (or grading in terms of applying braking force).
My first impression:
STREET:
Contary to prediction my breaks did not squeal at all. I had squeals on my MazdaSpeed and EBC but this time none! Once I bedded them in (multiple times of 45km/h stops). The initial bite was noticeably harder (and harder than anything else I have tried). The control is fine on the street and there is noticable grading of 1/10-5/10 (in many steps). I have not tried beyond 5/10 of this pads on the street and I don't need to for daily driving. This is perfect for street driving, there’s a little more bite than the EBC for sure and probably to the MazdaSpeed pads. But the bite could be related to a huge difference in the surface area of the AP caliper style pads to the stock caliper pad size.
The fun of this amazing power - Dust! Well….. let’s just say I’m going to have to clean my rims more often now….. and it is a pain.
Track review of the AP racing caliper and the Project Mu rotor (front), DBA rotor (rear). HC+ pads.
The brake is EXCELLENT!
There are some review of the Project Mu HC+ pads have poor brake control and not suitable for S tyres (R-spec) tyre. Rubbish. These brakes are wonderful. They can be trail braked, the car is great balance under brake and into the corner. There is minimal weight transfer when you finish with it. They cut my braking distance by at least 25m in the (8000rpm - to 2nd gear) 3rd gear corner and 50m in the (6000rpm to 3rd gear) 4th gear corner (about 160kph).
There is no fade at all. The rear rotor indicator is only burnt on the first one. The groove is great to get rid of the heat and there is no problem at all after 7-8 laps.
The pad pull up very very well after 39 laps at Winton raceway. More than 70% left.
As a result, I am 0.2 sec quicker and getting a 1 sec better consistent time. I am very happy.
Last edited by takahashi; 08-16-2006 at 04:35 AM.
08-16-2006, 02:05 AM
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Thanks Taka. Great review. Must have taken you a while to put it together.
I appreciate the comments on track use and understand that was probably your primary motivation for the upgrade. However, do you think the investment is worth it for street use, given that the stock brakes are pretty effective?
BTW, I've had EBC red stuff in the fronts since last October and haven't noticed any squeal. I also find the initial bite is fine but I guess that 'feel factor' can be subjective.
I appreciate the comments on track use and understand that was probably your primary motivation for the upgrade. However, do you think the investment is worth it for street use, given that the stock brakes are pretty effective?
BTW, I've had EBC red stuff in the fronts since last October and haven't noticed any squeal. I also find the initial bite is fine but I guess that 'feel factor' can be subjective.
08-16-2006, 02:27 AM
#3
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Stock brake is great and a rotor and pad upgrade is very effective. AP is only icing on the cake (and a lot of bling). It really depends on if you want to have the icing on your cake really 
I have now had Project Mu, MazdaSpeed, stock pads and EBC red stuff pads. (Ah also SBS pads with the AP racing caliper). To be honest, I have driven all on the road and on the track and I prefer them in the above order for street usage. The downside of the first 2 is very very bad on brake dust.
You can ask astro about the project mu HC+ for a more unbias review - he has it for 2 months and have them at the Winton on Monday.
I have now had Project Mu, MazdaSpeed, stock pads and EBC red stuff pads. (Ah also SBS pads with the AP racing caliper). To be honest, I have driven all on the road and on the track and I prefer them in the above order for street usage. The downside of the first 2 is very very bad on brake dust.
You can ask astro about the project mu HC+ for a more unbias review - he has it for 2 months and have them at the Winton on Monday.
08-16-2006, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by takahashi
........The rear rotor indicator is only burnt on the first one.....
Cheers.
08-16-2006, 02:48 AM
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Originally Posted by takahashi
Stock brake is great and a rotor and pad upgrade is very effective. AP is only icing on the cake (and a lot of bling). It really depends on if you want to have the icing on your cake really
So the caliper is more bling than substance (for street use)? Is there a weight advantage for the track? I've gotta say, for looks alone it's nearly worth it (the stock caliper is so bloody ugly - that's why I can't bring myself to bother painting it).BTW, do you really think a rotor upgrade is necessary for street use? If so, why?
Sorry to pepper you with questions but brakes are probably next on the agenda (if I can determine that it's worth it for my use).
08-16-2006, 03:24 AM
#6
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Originally Posted by Gomez
People who aren't familiar with the DBA 4000 rotors won't have an idea of what you're talking about. Good opportunity to post another pic!
Video here (right click and save as...) The video is 3GP and can be viewed with QuickTime
Originally Posted by Revovler
Do you really think a rotor upgrade is necessary for street use? If so, why?
If you want to upgrade before the stock one warn out... it is your call. It is not necessary when you need to change - for the love of god - get an aftermarket one.
Last edited by takahashi; 08-16-2006 at 04:37 AM.
08-16-2006, 04:36 AM
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The kit comes with Goodridge Brake line, SBS pro-touring pads and spacer for the stock RX-8 rims and rotors. The kit is from AP Racing with model number CP-6600 and it is the leading caliper (caliper in front of the axle). I sort of wonder but after looking at the stock caliper I know why. The brake line stud is upside down. The rotor using with this kit is stock size.
The Project Mu rotor that I am using now suits your car too
The Project Mu rotor that I am using now suits your car too
08-16-2006, 05:06 AM
#11
RX-8 SE3P SCR-pro front 323×24 that's the same thickness as std.
so with this kit you are realy only getting more pad area and better pressure on the pads. there is no aditional mass and cooling from a larger thicker disc.
so with this kit you are realy only getting more pad area and better pressure on the pads. there is no aditional mass and cooling from a larger thicker disc.
08-16-2006, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by rotarenvy
RX-8 SE3P SCR-pro front 323×24 that's the same thickness as std.
so with this kit you are realy only getting more pad area and better pressure on the pads. there is no aditional mass and cooling from a larger thicker disc.
so with this kit you are realy only getting more pad area and better pressure on the pads. there is no aditional mass and cooling from a larger thicker disc.
If you go for BBK... you can only have their bland, now I can pick and try another brand of rotor and pads if I wish to. If I go for anything like Endless, Project Mu, GReddy etc. I cannot try another set of brake pads or rotor for the RX-8. Hope you see my point.
The stock rotor size and thickness is already good enough, and keep in this size will not change the characteristic of the ABS and brake balance too much.
08-16-2006, 06:46 AM
#14
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In fact, I can fit a "giantantic" 330mmx30mm AP Racing rotor to it. But I opted for a matching Project Mu~!
And yes I had the AP racing "kit" with stock rotor for a while, that was with the SBS pads. I can see the difference between that and stock rotor with EBC but the biggest change is when the Project Mu stuff went in.
So I guess I am saying please have a look at Project Mu stuffs before deciding on your next pad/rotor.
And yes I had the AP racing "kit" with stock rotor for a while, that was with the SBS pads. I can see the difference between that and stock rotor with EBC but the biggest change is when the Project Mu stuff went in.
So I guess I am saying please have a look at Project Mu stuffs before deciding on your next pad/rotor.
08-16-2006, 06:54 AM
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Great review. I have heard great things about Project Mu. I look forward to your review of the 999 pads.
I must say those calipers really stand out when I saw them at Winton. They really mean business!
Ben
I must say those calipers really stand out when I saw them at Winton. They really mean business!
Ben
08-16-2006, 06:45 PM
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Let me get this straight-$2500 brake upgrade and it's .2 of a second a lap quicker?
Sounds like stock brakes are the way to go.[And that's .2 around Winton,which is much longer than Wakefield.
It doesn't matter how good they feel,the stop watch doesn't lie....
Sounds like stock brakes are the way to go.[And that's .2 around Winton,which is much longer than Wakefield.
It doesn't matter how good they feel,the stop watch doesn't lie....
08-17-2006, 02:20 AM
#17
Originally Posted by MACCAA
Let me get this straight-$2500 brake upgrade and it's .2 of a second a lap quicker?
Sounds like stock brakes are the way to go.[And that's .2 around Winton,which is much longer than Wakefield.
It doesn't matter how good they feel,the stop watch doesn't lie....
Sounds like stock brakes are the way to go.[And that's .2 around Winton,which is much longer than Wakefield.
It doesn't matter how good they feel,the stop watch doesn't lie....
08-17-2006, 02:28 AM
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Taka,
More bling than Zing? but looks brilliant and am sure you get your monies worth out of them pads!! Wish we had a more vibrant track community here in Sydney!!
Love the rotors, so damn sick fo the rust on mine, wish I'd painted when i did the calipers, not a huge expense to change I guess, might be on the cards, still gotta get some wheels!
Like your new website too! Some nice piccies, and good info!
Cheers
M
More bling than Zing? but looks brilliant and am sure you get your monies worth out of them pads!! Wish we had a more vibrant track community here in Sydney!!
Love the rotors, so damn sick fo the rust on mine, wish I'd painted when i did the calipers, not a huge expense to change I guess, might be on the cards, still gotta get some wheels!
Like your new website too! Some nice piccies, and good info!
Cheers
M
08-17-2006, 04:05 AM
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Originally Posted by mikeyr
Love the rotors, so damn sick fo the rust on mine, wish I'd painted when i did the calipers, not a huge expense to change I guess, might be on the cards, still gotta get some wheels!
08-17-2006, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by MACCAA
Let me get this straight-$2500 brake upgrade and it's .2 of a second a lap quicker?
$2500 is dirt cheap, Taka.....
08-17-2006, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Gomez
Factory brake upgrade on a 911 Turbo is $19K.
$2500 is dirt cheap, Taka.....
$2500 is dirt cheap, Taka.....
08-17-2006, 11:17 PM
#22
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Originally Posted by MACCAA
Let me get this straight-$2500 brake upgrade and it's .2 of a second a lap quicker?
Sounds like stock brakes are the way to go.[And that's .2 around Winton,which is much longer than Wakefield.
It doesn't matter how good they feel,the stop watch doesn't lie....
Sounds like stock brakes are the way to go.[And that's .2 around Winton,which is much longer than Wakefield.
It doesn't matter how good they feel,the stop watch doesn't lie....
It is $2500 - the lack of skull from TAKA to use it properly = 0.2 better per lap. I am sure in your hand it will be more.
(yes I have excuses - in march a lot of rubber has been laid the prev day, and this time the track is full of rock)
Alumium caliper is way better in cooling. I agree most part of the $2500 is bling -- and what a blink!
08-17-2006, 11:19 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by mikeyr
Taka,
More bling than Zing? but looks brilliant and am sure you get your monies worth out of them pads!! Wish we had a more vibrant track community here in Sydney!!
Love the rotors, so damn sick fo the rust on mine, wish I'd painted when i did the calipers, not a huge expense to change I guess, might be on the cards, still gotta get some wheels!
Like your new website too! Some nice piccies, and good info!
Cheers
M
More bling than Zing? but looks brilliant and am sure you get your monies worth out of them pads!! Wish we had a more vibrant track community here in Sydney!!
Love the rotors, so damn sick fo the rust on mine, wish I'd painted when i did the calipers, not a huge expense to change I guess, might be on the cards, still gotta get some wheels!
Like your new website too! Some nice piccies, and good info!
Cheers
M
I think just rotor and pads from Project Mu is a more than good enough upgrade. I am have admit I went for the lot since I know I will do it down the track when the car is faster (hint hint) so I might as well do it now. I will be certainly useful in 2 years time :haha:
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