LittleJohn

Hiya... I'm new to heel n toeing. But I have been driving a stick for some time now.
Is it just me being a newbie, or is this technique rather difficult in the 8.
I find this is mainly due to the fact that the accelerator and bake pedals don't rest at the same height..

any thoughts???

rot8ryx

I also need a 101 on heel and toe... where is the best place to heel and toe... ??? freeway curves??? or just any turn??? lol im such a newbie :p

Saru

I don't have an RX-8, no have I ever driven one. However:

You don't want the accelerator and brake to be at the same height at rest. If they were, once you'd actually applied the brakes you would find it ver difficult to reach the accelarator.

Back to basics: Can you double declutch? If not, there's not really a lot of point in heal and toe. There are plenty of writeups on the web on how to double declutch if you look.

BtB2: Why are you even considering heal-and-toe on freeway curves? Are you changing down a gear for them? I hope not. Rot8ryx, as you've said you're a newbie, don't take this the wrong way - but do you even understand *why* you'd want to heel-and-toe?

The only places I find myself H&Ting is when changing from 3rd for 2nd gear corners. In my 82 RX-7 I need to use the side of my foot instead of my heel because I sit too close to the wheel to get my leg over far enough to get my heel on the accelerator. In my 94 Peugeot I can H&T with the ball of my foot on the brake and just roll my foot, using the "outside" of the ball to reach the accelerator.

Don't practice with other people in the car - they will get sea sick from all the too-sharp braking followed by jerkyness as you stab the brakes and then come off them while you "perfect"* the technique.

*It's probably a good idea to watch someone who knows what they're doing H&T before trying it yourself. I've heard of people who somehow manage to toe the accelerator and heel the brake (not in a rotary). :D

rot8ryx

i have no clue as to why H&T is done... i think its because when you go on a turn... you decelerate... and H&T allows you to keep the rpms up so that when you gas the car after the turn... you have a better launch...?????? i have no idea what im talkin bout.... lol.... please explain.... i have seen people H&T on videos... when they do lap times... please enlighten cause imma newbie stick driver.... my rx8 is my first manual car..... and i love driving stick ... never goin back to auto =D

eccles

Heel & Toe downshifts help reduce the engine brake effect when the clutch is re-engaged in the lower gear. If you're already braking at the threshold of lockup, this can make the difference between locking the rears or not.

Double-declutching is an extension of heel & toe which introduces the additional benefit of helping the synchros match the shaft speeds, making for a smoother and faster shift as well.

timbo

Oh dear, will now show my age :p

As eccles says, double-declutching is one part of the equation, and was a mandatory for downshifting back in the days before manual gearboxes had 'synchromesh', as it is called, to match gear shaft speeds.

Basically, if you were changing down in an old style 'crash' manual box, you were trying to mesh a gear spinning at a fast speed with one spinning at a slower speed. For those too young, I'll let you imagine your own sound effects

To avoid the noise and its consequences on the durability of your gears, you pressed the clutch, released the gear stick from the higher gear to neutral, released the clutch and throttles up to bring the engine revs up to moreorless match that which they would be running with the lower gear, popped in the clutch, shifted the gear stick to the lower gear, and released the clutch -- all in a time much faster than it took to read this The result: a silent (?), smoother down change.

The advent of synchromesh, which obviates the double-declutching process by synchronising the engagement speed of adjacent gears, means you don't have to do this anymore in normal driving. Unless you still drive one of the old red London double decker buses.

We know downchanges create an engine braking effect and, as eccles says, this can unbalance a car in a corner, especially if you are already braking hard, causing a lock up. This is especially the case on loose surfaces (eg, gravel) meaning a higher risk of understeering off the corner, or an uncontrollable skid.

Hence the practice of heel and toeing, with one foot controlling both the brake and the accelerator while you brake into the corner and downchange, in effect reverting to the old practice of double declutching, although there is no need actually declutch twice, ie to release the clutch after shifting from the higher gear to neutral, enage the clutch and shift to the lower gear. It can all be done in a fairly swift motion, with the ball of the right foot on the brake, and the heel of the right foot blipping the accelerator.

Some people say it is better to use left foot braking, enabling smoother balancing of both brake and accelerator. I can't quite get my brain (or coordination) around jumping off the brake onto the clutch and back to the brake with my left foot, and still stay smooth. Of course, with the new electronic sequential gearboxes we will all have soon, it'll be a doddle, but until then I'll stick to right foot braking.

IMHO, it's something that may be helpful in track work but probably of little use in most road driving. In fact, if you leave the DSC fully on, it's doing a lot of this work for you -- well, in terms of controlling the braking and limiting the throttle, anyway -- preventing you from putting the car wildly off-balance.

As Saru says, it is something you have to practice, preferably with no-one in the car. In Saru's case, he was unfortunate enough to be passenger in my car at Wakefield when I decided to practice on the track, after a gap of about 15 years

eccles

Yep, I learned to double-declutch when I first learned to drive, because my mother's Mini had godawful synchros on 1st and 2nd (probably as a result of her total lack of mechanical sympathy). However, it stood me in good stead because my first car, a 1957 Hillman Minx, had no synchro on 1st.

Having learned that way, it became second nature, and to this day I double-declutch almost every downshift purely out of habit. There's really no need under normal driving these days - and in fact it probably puts more wear on the clutch actuators than it saves on the synchros - but when pressing hard on the track or a nice twisty backroad, I can still double-shuffle down faster and more smoothly than if I relied on the synchros.

DemonRX-8

I have always H&T'ed with my heel on the brake and toe on the accelerator, and continue to do so in the 8. It took a few tries to get used to the close pedal placement of the 8 when I got it, but now it's like second nature. I do it on just about any downshift into 1st, 2nd, or 3rd gears while braking. I tried doing it down to 4th on a fast off ramp but accidentally hit 2nd and the rear end nearly slid out from behind me as the engine braking skidded the tires (DSC off, always). Boy was that an interesting experience! I'll have to practice that one. Yes, I drive way too fast 90% of the time . . . damn this car, it just loves to go!

HeelnToe

The RX-8 has the best pedal placement for H&T of any car I've ever driven. If anything, it made it *easier* for a clumsy old guy like me to do it.

Being able to H&T the car was a make-or-break point for me when car shopping. It was the first thing I tried when out on my test drive. 15 seconds into that drive, I knew I'd be buying it. My wife thought I was nuts... I just couldn't stop giggling... it felt like they built the car specifically for me. Everything FIT. It was like I'd already been driving the thing for years.

Aside from the other listed reasons (smooths out downshifting), H&T sounds *fantastic* when going into a corner... or just casually slowing down to turn into the supermarket. Coupled with the sweet sound of those rotors and a light flywheel... it's just pure driving nirvana for me

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

my FC has almost perfect pedal placement for heel and toe as well

i can do h & t like it's nothing now, but still hesitates when doing a double declutch downshift (i just clutch in, downshift, rev match, and go, smooth and fast )

timbo

eccles -- my first car was a 56 Hillamn Minx too, which I recollect had precious little synchro on 2nd, by the time I got it. But I was brought up on a farm, and at harvest time from about the age of 10, had to drive old International trucks with crash gear boxes. Those were, er, 'formative' drives

HeelnToe

Another hint: wear shoes with little (or no) heel.

It's much more difficult for me to H&T with my dress shoes vs. my casual shoes. The heel of my dress shoes will sometimes catch on the accelerator pedal when I'm pivoting my foot over.

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

I would imagine it would be difficult to do this with the heel on the brake and the toe on the throttle. Myself, I brake in the normal manner using the ball/toe of my right foot, and when required pivot across and blip the throttle with the 'heel'. In actual fact for me it works out to be the outside of my right foot that rolls onto the throttle.

Cheers,
Hymee.

lefuton

hrm, seems to me you would generally want to avoid heel & toe in a corner since you really shouldn't be braking thru a turn. coming into a turn sure...but then again, we aren't really driving 9/10ths on the street...or shouldn't be anyhow.

littlejohn, you may want to practice just rev matching first or as these guys call it, double declutching. then when you feel comfortable with that, throw in an extra pedal (the brake)

HeelnToe

Me too

But I normally like to get my actual heel ONTO the throttle to blip it, pressing down on it with the bottom of the heel (toes still on brake).

With a larger heel, the side of the heel often hits the edge of the throttle pedal... I then have to lift my heel up higher to get it to clear and get it on top of the pedal. I often get lazy and just intentionally catch the side of the pedal against the side of my foot (below the ankle), which works, but... yuck.

With flatter shoes, I don't have any problems at all swinging my entire heel onto the pedal.

P.S.: sitting farther back and giving your legs more room also makes H&T easier for many people

fueltank

for those who wish to try.
I found teaching people to heel'n'toe was best done at low speed with a very late brake for a corner.

rot8ryx

okay... i know how to down shift and rev match... what next???? sorry guys... im a newbie :p

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

What next? Do the rev match bit while you are braking as well - Left foot on the clutch work, right foot on the brake and blipping the throttle at the same time.

rx-8club.co.uk

WATCH THIS VIDEO http://www.mymazdarotary.com/rx-8_vi...ime-attack.avi 17.8MB

I have an auto RX-8, so quite often I am left foot braking (was doing that at the Wakefield trackday - in car vids). I even do the heal and toe with the auto, to match the revs with the gear and road speed of the car when downshifting.

I heal and toe in every manual I have driven, and virtually do it all the time - it becomes second nature after a little while.

On a track you will quite often find you will be in the position where you need to brake, turn, change down - hence the heal/toe.

rot8ryx

ahhhhh!!!! so basically... its like downshifting while braking???? no??? :D i think i can do that... cause i can downshift pretty well now :p

Saru

I can't say I remember that part

Hymee

iTrader: (1)

Yes it is like that, but you also use the throttle as well - using 3 pedals at once with 2 legs.

Cheers,
Hymee.

rot8ryx

great!!!! i have been practicing everytime i drive... harder than i thought.. but im sure ill catch on very soon... thanks hymee..and everyone else for your help.... ;D
good looking out!!!!! :D