Cop thread...
04-27-2007, 06:00 AM
#51
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Originally Posted by enforcer
If issuing tickets means we get the bloody idiots off the road....then do it I say!
04-27-2007, 06:40 PM
#52
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Tickets vs objectives
Very good question Tim.
Despite all the efforts of the Police and State and Federal governments, the Easter long weekend road toll in 2007 was to put it bluntful...woeful.
28 people died on our roads with Victoria having the worst with 12 people dying.
In Queensland we issued in excess of 10,000 infringement notice for speeding, 400 for drink driving and 350 without a seatbelt.
If you compare the Queensland road toll to the same period to last year, we had 98 deaths, which is 18 more than the same time last year.
The reality of some of the crashes though paint a different picture:
1 person was killed after suffering a heart attack at the wheel (ACT)
1 crashed into a tree after being awake for 3 days straight, smoking cannabis and drinking bourbon (WA)
1 pedestrian was killed after lying on the middle of the road after an argument (WA)
1 child was killed by a rubbish truck reversing (NSW)
1 cyclist fell off his bike and was run over by a truck (VIC)
3 army special forced counter terrorism personnel veered off a bridge into the water under what appear to be suspicious circumstances (VIC)
1 person died after hitting the trailer of an oncoming vehicle (VIC)
4 were motorcyclists (with less protection than a car)
At least 5 were where the driver was 68yo or older
...and 2 were head on collisions (eyes off the road)
All the others were in NSW, VIC or QLD where the harshest speed restrictions apply.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say despite the push by governments to blame speed, a lot of the deaths are attributed to other reasons.
If you have a better idea to reduce the roadtoll Timbo I will gladly take your ideas on board!...and anyone else for that matter...!
Despite all the efforts of the Police and State and Federal governments, the Easter long weekend road toll in 2007 was to put it bluntful...woeful.
28 people died on our roads with Victoria having the worst with 12 people dying.
In Queensland we issued in excess of 10,000 infringement notice for speeding, 400 for drink driving and 350 without a seatbelt.
If you compare the Queensland road toll to the same period to last year, we had 98 deaths, which is 18 more than the same time last year.
The reality of some of the crashes though paint a different picture:
1 person was killed after suffering a heart attack at the wheel (ACT)
1 crashed into a tree after being awake for 3 days straight, smoking cannabis and drinking bourbon (WA)
1 pedestrian was killed after lying on the middle of the road after an argument (WA)
1 child was killed by a rubbish truck reversing (NSW)
1 cyclist fell off his bike and was run over by a truck (VIC)
3 army special forced counter terrorism personnel veered off a bridge into the water under what appear to be suspicious circumstances (VIC)
1 person died after hitting the trailer of an oncoming vehicle (VIC)
4 were motorcyclists (with less protection than a car)
At least 5 were where the driver was 68yo or older
...and 2 were head on collisions (eyes off the road)
All the others were in NSW, VIC or QLD where the harshest speed restrictions apply.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say despite the push by governments to blame speed, a lot of the deaths are attributed to other reasons.
If you have a better idea to reduce the roadtoll Timbo I will gladly take your ideas on board!...and anyone else for that matter...!
04-27-2007, 07:05 PM
#53
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Thanks for taking up the cudgel, Trevor.
IMHO, there is a very simple solution, whic -- for the life of me -- I can't understand why governments don't take up. It's call driver education, and like all education, it must be lifelong.
A licence is a privilege and a responsibility. I can see no reason apart from cost why all drivers are not retested every few years -- randomly. "P" drivers should be tested randomly each year they are on a provisional licence, as should those aged over 70. Addressing the cost issue is also simple: user-pays; you want to drive, you pay for the privilege including having your skills reassessed periodically.
Those conducting the tests should be a professional group, apart from the police or RTS -- a bit like road service teams, and they should be empowered to reward good road behaviour.
Motor sports should be more widely promoted and encouraged. IMHO, a big part of the speeding and dangerous drving problem is that people, especially young guys, are not encouraged to go onto to tracks of other facilities, so they can get their jollies, with the result that it happens illegaly -- and dangerously.
Is that enough to begin with? (hops off soap box and waits patiently for Revolver)
IMHO, there is a very simple solution, whic -- for the life of me -- I can't understand why governments don't take up. It's call driver education, and like all education, it must be lifelong.
A licence is a privilege and a responsibility. I can see no reason apart from cost why all drivers are not retested every few years -- randomly. "P" drivers should be tested randomly each year they are on a provisional licence, as should those aged over 70. Addressing the cost issue is also simple: user-pays; you want to drive, you pay for the privilege including having your skills reassessed periodically.
Those conducting the tests should be a professional group, apart from the police or RTS -- a bit like road service teams, and they should be empowered to reward good road behaviour.
Motor sports should be more widely promoted and encouraged. IMHO, a big part of the speeding and dangerous drving problem is that people, especially young guys, are not encouraged to go onto to tracks of other facilities, so they can get their jollies, with the result that it happens illegaly -- and dangerously.
Is that enough to begin with? (hops off soap box and waits patiently for Revolver)
04-27-2007, 07:25 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by timbo
Don't take things too seriously, Trevor....but I'd really like to know if there has ever been any serious study of the correlation between the number of tickets issued, and the reduction of bloody idiots on the road
What happens when you inforce drunk driving? Pedestrian deaths go up!
What happens when you enforce speed limits? The number of unlicensed drivers goes up!
What happens when the police focus on traffic management? Other crime statistics go through the roof!
You know what is fascinating about this? All these stats slide around in proportion with the decrease in the crime in focus.
What happens when you hire too many police? They get lazy ... and the start fining honest people who would have otherwise had no issues going on doing their usual right turn into the petrol station every week.
You want me to throw stats around though? I can! Just the same as the government agencies throw theirs around. They also have biased theories about speed and other propaganda that doesn't make sense on close inspection.
Here's something though ... have you noticed how in Victoria how the road toll has gone up in line with the strict enforcement of speed limits?
04-27-2007, 07:39 PM
#55
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Well I will say I agree whole heartedly with both of you. Especially Trevors point on the issue of speed not being the cause for majority of accidents but the "idiots" behind the wheel not knowing how to drive to the road conditions and their own conditions.
As for the issue of young drivers going to the track to get their jollies, the Vic Police especially started off with the right idea of holding Legal Off Street Drags. It sadly turned into yet another reason for young driver to lose respect for the boys in blue when they started ticketing/canarying drivers for small trivial things, like car to low, exhaust to loud, etc.
I don't condone people driving unroadworthy vehicles. I understand the rules (now :-/) and understand their reasons. However, if Police want respect, they have to do what every other person on this earth does and walk a fine line between the letter of the law, the intent of the law and what they are trying to achieve.
Cromax, while I agree with the last part in principal, you have to take the number of vehicles on the road during the comparison periods as well as the number of hours people spend on the roads. In the last few years the number of vehicles on the road has increased markedly while the amount of time we spend in cars has also increased. That being said, I still think that overall it has had no affect on reducing a proportional road toll.
As for the issue of young drivers going to the track to get their jollies, the Vic Police especially started off with the right idea of holding Legal Off Street Drags. It sadly turned into yet another reason for young driver to lose respect for the boys in blue when they started ticketing/canarying drivers for small trivial things, like car to low, exhaust to loud, etc.
I don't condone people driving unroadworthy vehicles. I understand the rules (now :-/) and understand their reasons. However, if Police want respect, they have to do what every other person on this earth does and walk a fine line between the letter of the law, the intent of the law and what they are trying to achieve.
Cromax, while I agree with the last part in principal, you have to take the number of vehicles on the road during the comparison periods as well as the number of hours people spend on the roads. In the last few years the number of vehicles on the road has increased markedly while the amount of time we spend in cars has also increased. That being said, I still think that overall it has had no affect on reducing a proportional road toll.
04-28-2007, 01:07 AM
#56
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Sheesh! Anybody would think I'm opinionated. 
Actually, I agree with every syllable of Timbo's post.
I don't have a problem with the po po booking people for doing stuff wrong. Hey, you took a risk and lost. Too bad. Pay the fine or do the time without your licence and cop it sweet.
However, this stick approach really does need a carrot as well, together with better driver education to prevent many people getting into dangerous situations in the first place.
I'm no saint but I like to think I choose my spirited moments with care and generally exercise careful restraint. This is borne out by the fact that in about 20 years of driving the only accidents I've had have involved people running into my rear.
Now the PC types will say I've just been lucky and you should never ever break the road rules, etc, etc but in my view if you give most properly trained motorists some discretion to drive according to the conditions they will exercise it sensibly.
Actually, I agree with every syllable of Timbo's post.
I don't have a problem with the po po booking people for doing stuff wrong. Hey, you took a risk and lost. Too bad. Pay the fine or do the time without your licence and cop it sweet.
However, this stick approach really does need a carrot as well, together with better driver education to prevent many people getting into dangerous situations in the first place.
I'm no saint but I like to think I choose my spirited moments with care and generally exercise careful restraint. This is borne out by the fact that in about 20 years of driving the only accidents I've had have involved people running into my rear.
Now the PC types will say I've just been lucky and you should never ever break the road rules, etc, etc but in my view if you give most properly trained motorists some discretion to drive according to the conditions they will exercise it sensibly.
04-28-2007, 04:08 AM
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Education: When we did the wrong thing in class we got punished for it, and we learnt our lesson (or at least tried not to get caught again)
Speeding: We've all done it and when we get caught we get punished for it. The same applies, but the difference is we have to pay a big fine.
Whether you think its fair or not we'll all probably get a ticket at some point in our lives, just ask some of our professionals (Skaife/Lowndes) and they'll tell you they obey the driving laws.... but they'll also tell you its been able to handle a car which counts, i.e. loss of control in wet conditions, vehicles turning in front, vehicles cutting others off, sudden braking in front, and unexpected obstacles on the road.
They'll tell you if people lack skill, NO speed is "safe", if the basic rules of proper vehicle handling were enforced, we'd all have less to worry about, regardless of our vehicle velocity.
Heres some other helpful points...
Don't go 5% above the speed limit. There may be some rare occassions you'll get a ticket in this range, but there are national standards which allow for a certain margin of error in speedometers. In Queensland the tolerance point is around 10%.
Do your maths. Lets assume you have a good job and earn $20 per hour. If you get a $150 speeding ticket, you'll need to work 8 hours, to pay the fine....and if you're unlucky enough to be loaded up with another $150 fine, 2 days wages. I can think of better things to spend my money on.
The bottom line is theres no substitute for situational awareness, common sense, and good enviromental design of our roads to keep the toll down...and I like Timbos idea of adhoc driving tests for the young and elderly. Not a bad idea. More education. Theres that word again....
Your points of view all have merit, and I've taken them on board...everyone else outside of our forum should be listening....
Speeding: We've all done it and when we get caught we get punished for it. The same applies, but the difference is we have to pay a big fine.
Whether you think its fair or not we'll all probably get a ticket at some point in our lives, just ask some of our professionals (Skaife/Lowndes) and they'll tell you they obey the driving laws.... but they'll also tell you its been able to handle a car which counts, i.e. loss of control in wet conditions, vehicles turning in front, vehicles cutting others off, sudden braking in front, and unexpected obstacles on the road.
They'll tell you if people lack skill, NO speed is "safe", if the basic rules of proper vehicle handling were enforced, we'd all have less to worry about, regardless of our vehicle velocity.
Heres some other helpful points...
Don't go 5% above the speed limit. There may be some rare occassions you'll get a ticket in this range, but there are national standards which allow for a certain margin of error in speedometers. In Queensland the tolerance point is around 10%.
Do your maths. Lets assume you have a good job and earn $20 per hour. If you get a $150 speeding ticket, you'll need to work 8 hours, to pay the fine....and if you're unlucky enough to be loaded up with another $150 fine, 2 days wages. I can think of better things to spend my money on.
The bottom line is theres no substitute for situational awareness, common sense, and good enviromental design of our roads to keep the toll down...and I like Timbos idea of adhoc driving tests for the young and elderly. Not a bad idea. More education. Theres that word again....
Your points of view all have merit, and I've taken them on board...everyone else outside of our forum should be listening....
04-30-2007, 09:12 AM
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Touch wood Drew I haven't, one of my 'pet hates' is having to issue a ticket to someone who is either a family man (or woman), who were genuinally not aware they were going over the limit....and then a 'hoons' car goes flashing past at the same time!
The majority of people I've given tickets to have been pretty good about it except for a few who were UIL, were having a bad day and decided to argue the point or simply put the foot down to get away.
As for the 18 - 25 year old in the sports car?....I think I'm more facinated about the car rather than what they were pulled up for!
Seriously though because I'm managing the station, I really don't get an opportunity to get out on the road these days, but when I do the rules of fairness, courtesy, firmness and discretion always apply.
The majority of people I've given tickets to have been pretty good about it except for a few who were UIL, were having a bad day and decided to argue the point or simply put the foot down to get away.
As for the 18 - 25 year old in the sports car?....I think I'm more facinated about the car rather than what they were pulled up for!
Seriously though because I'm managing the station, I really don't get an opportunity to get out on the road these days, but when I do the rules of fairness, courtesy, firmness and discretion always apply.
04-30-2007, 05:57 PM
#63
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We need more cops like you here in NSW sarge!
Most of the ones we have here should have retired yonks ago!
I dunno why theyre still around? Probably just to hassle young bloods such as myself!
Most of the ones we have here should have retired yonks ago!
I dunno why theyre still around? Probably just to hassle young bloods such as myself!
04-30-2007, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DrewMan
We need more cops like you here in NSW sarge!
Most of the ones we have here should have retired yonks ago!
I dunno why theyre still around? Probably just to hassle young bloods such as myself!
Most of the ones we have here should have retired yonks ago!
I dunno why theyre still around? Probably just to hassle young bloods such as myself!
04-30-2007, 06:24 PM
#66
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oink!
I think we need less police who are in it for the power trip! Im sure there are excellent cops who are over 55 and fantastic at what they do *cough* senior sergeant *cough*
I think we need less police who are in it for the power trip! Im sure there are excellent cops who are over 55 and fantastic at what they do *cough* senior sergeant *cough*
05-01-2007, 04:48 AM
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Were in the middle of negotiations with the Government in our Enterprise bargaining (EB5) agreement. This is what were pushing for....
Senior Sergeant - $94,000 - $105,000
Sergeant - $84,000 - $91,000
Senior Constable - $68,000 - $76,000
Constable - $55,000 - $66,000
(base rate excluding penalties)
On top of this we have 6% compulsory contributions and the Govt kicks in another 12% to our Super = 18%.
Therefore a Senior Sergeant will retire on $800,000 and an Inspector over $1.1 million.
Our chances are good. How does that compare with your N.S.W. and Vic salaries????
Senior Sergeant - $94,000 - $105,000
Sergeant - $84,000 - $91,000
Senior Constable - $68,000 - $76,000
Constable - $55,000 - $66,000
(base rate excluding penalties)
On top of this we have 6% compulsory contributions and the Govt kicks in another 12% to our Super = 18%.
Therefore a Senior Sergeant will retire on $800,000 and an Inspector over $1.1 million.
Our chances are good. How does that compare with your N.S.W. and Vic salaries????
05-01-2007, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by enforcer
Were in the middle of negotiations with the Government in our Enterprise bargaining (EB5) agreement. This is what were pushing for....
Senior Sergeant - $94,000 - $105,000
Sergeant - $84,000 - $91,000
Senior Constable - $68,000 - $76,000
Constable - $55,000 - $66,000
(base rate excluding penalties)
On top of this we have 6% compulsory contributions and the Govt kicks in another 12% to our Super = 18%.
Therefore a Senior Sergeant will retire on $800,000 and an Inspector over $1.1 million.
Our chances are good. How does that compare with your N.S.W. and Vic salaries????
Senior Sergeant - $94,000 - $105,000
Sergeant - $84,000 - $91,000
Senior Constable - $68,000 - $76,000
Constable - $55,000 - $66,000
(base rate excluding penalties)
On top of this we have 6% compulsory contributions and the Govt kicks in another 12% to our Super = 18%.
Therefore a Senior Sergeant will retire on $800,000 and an Inspector over $1.1 million.
Our chances are good. How does that compare with your N.S.W. and Vic salaries????
But its all taxable ,.......lol lol
05-01-2007, 05:32 AM
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Taxable?...off shore accounts perhaps? Theres no escape. Mr Howard has it covered.
As for trying to climb the slippery pole?...no matter how hard I try I keep sliding down!
Trick is unless you're bleeding...battle on....regardless
As for trying to climb the slippery pole?...no matter how hard I try I keep sliding down!
Trick is unless you're bleeding...battle on....regardless
05-01-2007, 07:21 AM
#74
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Originally Posted by enforcer
Were in the middle of negotiations with the Government in our Enterprise bargaining (EB5) agreement. This is what were pushing for....
Senior Sergeant - $94,000 - $105,000
Sergeant - $84,000 - $91,000
Senior Constable - $68,000 - $76,000
Constable - $55,000 - $66,000
(base rate excluding penalties)
On top of this we have 6% compulsory contributions and the Govt kicks in another 12% to our Super = 18%.
Therefore a Senior Sergeant will retire on $800,000 and an Inspector over $1.1 million.
Our chances are good. How does that compare with your N.S.W. and Vic salaries????
Senior Sergeant - $94,000 - $105,000
Sergeant - $84,000 - $91,000
Senior Constable - $68,000 - $76,000
Constable - $55,000 - $66,000
(base rate excluding penalties)
On top of this we have 6% compulsory contributions and the Govt kicks in another 12% to our Super = 18%.
Therefore a Senior Sergeant will retire on $800,000 and an Inspector over $1.1 million.
Our chances are good. How does that compare with your N.S.W. and Vic salaries????
05-01-2007, 07:59 AM
#75
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Originally Posted by Cromax
Sorry *cough* ... but I doubt that $1.1m of super will be enough to cut the mustard. How long you reckon it'd take someone to get to Senior Sergeant?
a very long time!
on average it takes about hmmm 10 years to get a sergeants spot?
a but less for some