No start

flametail · 04-27-2011, 10:08 PM

I have an 04 6MT with about 62K on the clock. Today I tried starting the car at work and nothing happened at all, I turned the key over and everything worked fine (gauges came on, radio was on with all presets and everyting, lights worked and didn't dim when trying to turn over). After a few tries it finally cranked and I drove it home. It sat outside for about 20 minutes before I went back out to go to Walmart and it did the exact same thing. I went to Advanced Auto to get a battery for it thinking that would fix the problem and after I replaced it it cranked once and started...I turned it off, tried again, and yet again I got nothing except for what I described earlier. Yet again after a few tries it started up again and I let it idle for about 45 minutes, turned it off and tried to start it back up and whadya know...the same no start issue again. Any ideas?

EDIT: and not 5 minutes after I typed this I went out and it started fine off the first crank, idle was a little rough at first and it acted like it wanted to stall but it smoothed out and worked fine...i'm stumped.

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ThatNewGuy · 04-27-2011, 10:17 PM

Any CEL?

flametail · 04-27-2011, 10:18 PM

Nope, when I changed the battery it actually cleared the pesky one I've had since February.

Chrishoky · 04-27-2011, 10:23 PM

Is the engine hot when you are doing this? In other words.. do you have the problem after the car sits for about an hour? Poor hot starts are a sign of a few things I have experienced.. Im having the same problem with my 8.

Could be the battery (not yours, since you said you changed it), could be the starter, check to see if your car has the upgraded starter or not, or it could be fouled up plugs, wires, or coils.

Finally, it could be low compression. There are threads for each of these issues in the troubleshooting section. I would check the starter first.

flametail · 04-27-2011, 10:27 PM

I changed the coils, it just seems odd to me that it won't do anything at all, no crank or anything. How do I check for an updated starter? It's 10:30 here so not happenin tonight.

Chrishoky · 04-27-2011, 10:39 PM

The starter is located near the transmission under the car. The new starter has a different part number than the original one. You can sometimes see the sticker on the starter from the top of the engine bay. Try here for a DIY. DIY: Starter Change Swap (for dummies)

This is the new part #- N3Z1-18-400X

If yours does not have a sticker that has this series of numbers, its the old one, and may need a change. The new starter cranks faster than the original and can help with hard starts. If none of these are the problem, have a compression test done.

ANIBALRX8 · 04-27-2011, 10:40 PM

It sound like its your ignition switch to me, since it not doing notting at all (it lost contact) and then its starts fine (it maid contact) or your starter is going out!

It is not your engine!!!

flametail · 04-27-2011, 10:43 PM

How can I test a faulty ignition switch and where is it located?

ANIBALRX8 · 04-27-2011, 11:14 PM

Went you turn the switch, power will past true to the solenoid at the started. if it makes it there your starter is bad, if it does not then your ignition switch is bad.

If I was doing this, I wood test all the cables with a volt meter, at the starter and check to make shore they are tied down good making good contact.

Now I am an ex mechanic so I wood now what am doing, if you don't call a locks smith to check your ignition switch or take it to your Mazda dealer, they will now how to check it for you!

flametail · 04-27-2011, 11:38 PM

I don't think it's the starter, I don't have any cold or hot start issues and when I went out there just now (It's been idling for awhile now) I turned it off and then back on and it fired right up...then I did it again and nothing again.

VOODOO8 · 04-28-2011, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flametail

I don't think it's the starter, I don't have any cold or hot start issues and when I went out there just now (It's been idling for awhile now) I turned it off and then back on and it fired right up...then I did it again and nothing again.

My money is on the starter / starter wiring / starter connections as the culprit. If you want to prove me right or wrong, try this diagnosis DIY out and report back, will also help isolate on the ignition switch as a possible cause too.

DIAGNOSE CAR STARTER ISSUE
This guide was created to help locate electrical problems in the starter circuit, and avoid erroneous replacement of the starter or ignition switch.
This trouble shooter is far from perfect, and may not be in the most efficient order, but this is one way go about a diagnosis.

Assumptions:
• Engine is not seized, turns over without binding.
• Battery is fully charged and in good health, proper fluid levels, etc.
• The starter is properly tightened with at least 2 of its bolts.
• All connections on the starter are tight and in good condition.
• Transmission is not an automatic. (see footnote 1)
• You are using a digital volt meter. (see footnote 2)
Notes:
• When testing at the battery- always test at the center of the 'post', not at the cable end.
• Transmission should be in neutral at all times.
• Be sure that all connections at the starter are complete through the entire test.
• Be sure to keep test leads, tools, body parts and pets away from belts, pulleys and any other part of your car that moves or rotates if the engine cranks or runs. it might just fire up when you don't expect it to.
• It does not matter which volt meter leads go where, red or black, positive or negative. Simply ignore the '-' symbol on your volt meter display. (see footnote 2)
• All test measurements will be taken while the key is in the 'crank' position, best to have a helper so you can focus on your test probes / measurement readings.
• The measurement of resistance (ohms) is basically useless when testing a starter system, understanding the 'voltage drop' of a circuit under load will expose a faulty component / connection.
• Avoid creating any sparks near the battery. Such as when hot-wiring and goof-ups.
• The solenoid is attached to the starter motor, and replacement starters normally come complete with a solenoid. Replacement of the solenoid alone, once the whole starter is on the bench is a simple process with just a few common tools.
• The solenoid has other functions for the starter. They are not important for electrical testing purposes.

First things first:
1. Confirm that the car is NOT in gear.
2. Measure the voltage across both battery posts while the key is in the crank position. If you measure less than 10 volts (and dropping) either the battery is not properly charged or may need service or replacement. Confirm the battery is valid before continuing.
3. Listen for the click at the starter.
If you get ONE nice, solid click out of the starter each time you turn the key you can (for the time) assume that the circuit that begins at your battery, goes through wires, connections, the ignition switch then more wire and connections is correct and complete (small red trace in figure above). The click you hear is the mechanical action inside the solenoid that completes the circuit that powers the starter motor. The solenoid will either click (pull) or not. There is no electrical gray area here. Note that this does not mean that the contacts inside the solenoid are intact - more on this in a moment.
If the click is more of a chatter, rather than one nice click, the above does not necessarily apply to you. Treat chatter as if without a single click.
From here there are two test sections, with single click and with no clicks.

WITH SINGLE CLICK:
Assuming your battery is OK, your problem (or voltage drop) is one of the following-
bad main battery cables or terminal ends including earth cable(s), connections at battery, bad solenoid contacts, or actual starter motor.

Test power to starter-
Place one of your test lead probes on the stud on the solenoid that your positive battery cable attaches to and the other probe to bare metal on the engine block or other solid ground point on the vehicle. Have your helper turn the key and read off the measurement. Note that when the key is not in the crank position you will read battery voltage on your volt meter (approx 12.6 volts). This is of little help and should be ignored for the time.
-roughly 10.5 volts or so- your cables and ends are fine and you may suspect the contacts in the solenoid next. To test them leave one test probe on the block and place the probe that you had on the solenoid stud with the battery cable to the other stud on the solenoid. There will normally be a heavy wire attached to this stud that goes into the starter motor body. Turn the key again and read off the measurement. if you have a very low voltage reading here there is a good chance at this point that the solenoid contacts have failed. If you have the same reading, about 10 volts, than the starter motor must be repaired or replaced.
-less than ~10 volts- you have a voltage drop and fun begins. First the positive, it's easier. Place one test probe on the + positive battery post and the other at the solenoid stud that that the battery cable attaches to (yes your test probes are at either end of the same wire). now turn the key to crank. a measurement above 1 volt is not satisfactory. it may not be THE problem, but should be corrected before continuing. to pin point the bad section simply place the test probes at any two points along the + positive path. Start with the center of the battery post, and 2 inches away where the bare wire slips into the battery terminal end. one tenth (0.10) of a volt is acceptable per connection. any higher than that (under load, which is to say while the key is held in the crank position) and the connection should be cleaned or repaired. Poke around and make corrections until you have under 1 volt from the battery (+) all the way to the solenoid stud.
Testing the ground path is basically the same with a few exceptions. There is no negative wire for the starter, it gets its ground from being bolted up, and relies on a good ground from the battery to the engine or transmission. Cars with remote mounted batteries often have no negative cable directly to the engine or transmission. They use one cable from the battery to a point on the frame, and then another cable from the frame to the engine / transmission. Both cables and all connections should be scrutinized. This method of grounding is not optimum. A piggy back, large gauge cable can be added with minimal effort.
To test the ground path start with one probe on the negative post on the battery, and the other probe on bare metal at the engine block or cylinder head. If you have already tested and repaired your positive cable the odds are that you'll measure more than 2 volts while the key is in the crank position. Use the same method as above to pin point the trouble section.

NO CLICK:
First make sure you have battery voltage at solenoid, (see 'test power to starter' above). Make sure the smaller lead on the solenoid is firmly attached and in good condition. Leave it attached while you make any / all measurements, this is critical. Place one test probe on the engine block or cylinder head, the other test probe on the small lead at the solenoid. If you measure above 10 volts while the key is held in the crank position than the solenoid windings have failed and the entire solenoid / starter must be repaired or replaced.
If you read under 10 volts then you have two likely possibilities. One is that the ground path for your starter circuit is not complete (see testing the ground path above), or your 'ignition switch' circuit including the famed 'brown wire', the ignition switch and all the cables and connections (red dots on the drawing above) involved must be tested. If an alarm has been installed, make sure to consider it and any relevant connections.
Why not start at the switch. Find the lead that brings power into the switch. place one probe at this point and the other at the engine block. Crank it. Less than 10 volts here and you need to start testing upstream. 10 volts or more means the switch may be suspect. Leave the probe at the same point on the switch and take the probe from the engine block and place it on the lead from the back of the switch to the solenoid. A measurement of 1 volt or more indicates the ignition switch has failed and must be repaired or replaced. Less than 1 volt means the problem is between the switch and the solenoid. Check and clean any connections you find.

footnotes:
* Cars with automatic transmission have a 'neutral safety switch', power from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid trigger will only flow when in Park or Neutral, assuming the switch is in good working order.
** Many analog volt meters require that the positive and negative test leads are connected to the appropriate (+/-) points in the circuit. When measuring for drops on the same path keep the positive test probe closest to the positive post at the battery.

ANIBALRX8 · 04-28-2011, 11:23 PM

+1

I agreed

Quote:

Originally Posted by VOODOO8

My money is on the starter / starter wiring / starter connections as the culprit. If you want to prove me right or wrong, try this diagnosis DIY out and report back, will also help isolate on the ignition switch as a possible cause too.

DIAGNOSE CAR STARTER ISSUE
This guide was created to help locate electrical problems in the starter circuit, and avoid erroneous replacement of the starter or ignition switch.
This trouble shooter is far from perfect, and may not be in the most efficient order, but this is one way go about a diagnosis.

Assumptions:
• Engine is not seized, turns over without binding.
• Battery is fully charged and in good health, proper fluid levels, etc.
• The starter is properly tightened with at least 2 of its bolts.
• All connections on the starter are tight and in good condition.
• Transmission is not an automatic. (see footnote 1)
• You are using a digital volt meter. (see footnote 2)
Notes:
• When testing at the battery- always test at the center of the 'post', not at the cable end.
• Transmission should be in neutral at all times.
• Be sure that all connections at the starter are complete through the entire test.
• Be sure to keep test leads, tools, body parts and pets away from belts, pulleys and any other part of your car that moves or rotates if the engine cranks or runs. it might just fire up when you don't expect it to.
• It does not matter which volt meter leads go where, red or black, positive or negative. Simply ignore the '-' symbol on your volt meter display. (see footnote 2)
• All test measurements will be taken while the key is in the 'crank' position, best to have a helper so you can focus on your test probes / measurement readings.
• The measurement of resistance (ohms) is basically useless when testing a starter system, understanding the 'voltage drop' of a circuit under load will expose a faulty component / connection.
• Avoid creating any sparks near the battery. Such as when hot-wiring and goof-ups.
• The solenoid is attached to the starter motor, and replacement starters normally come complete with a solenoid. Replacement of the solenoid alone, once the whole starter is on the bench is a simple process with just a few common tools.
• The solenoid has other functions for the starter. They are not important for electrical testing purposes.

First things first:
1. Confirm that the car is NOT in gear.
2. Measure the voltage across both battery posts while the key is in the crank position. If you measure less than 10 volts (and dropping) either the battery is not properly charged or may need service or replacement. Confirm the battery is valid before continuing.
3. Listen for the click at the starter.
If you get ONE nice, solid click out of the starter each time you turn the key you can (for the time) assume that the circuit that begins at your battery, goes through wires, connections, the ignition switch then more wire and connections is correct and complete (small red trace in figure above). The click you hear is the mechanical action inside the solenoid that completes the circuit that powers the starter motor. The solenoid will either click (pull) or not. There is no electrical gray area here. Note that this does not mean that the contacts inside the solenoid are intact - more on this in a moment.
If the click is more of a chatter, rather than one nice click, the above does not necessarily apply to you. Treat chatter as if without a single click.
From here there are two test sections, with single click and with no clicks.

WITH SINGLE CLICK:
Assuming your battery is OK, your problem (or voltage drop) is one of the following-
bad main battery cables or terminal ends including earth cable(s), connections at battery, bad solenoid contacts, or actual starter motor.

Test power to starter-
Place one of your test lead probes on the stud on the solenoid that your positive battery cable attaches to and the other probe to bare metal on the engine block or other solid ground point on the vehicle. Have your helper turn the key and read off the measurement. Note that when the key is not in the crank position you will read battery voltage on your volt meter (approx 12.6 volts). This is of little help and should be ignored for the time.
-roughly 10.5 volts or so- your cables and ends are fine and you may suspect the contacts in the solenoid next. To test them leave one test probe on the block and place the probe that you had on the solenoid stud with the battery cable to the other stud on the solenoid. There will normally be a heavy wire attached to this stud that goes into the starter motor body. Turn the key again and read off the measurement. if you have a very low voltage reading here there is a good chance at this point that the solenoid contacts have failed. If you have the same reading, about 10 volts, than the starter motor must be repaired or replaced.
-less than ~10 volts- you have a voltage drop and fun begins. First the positive, it's easier. Place one test probe on the + positive battery post and the other at the solenoid stud that that the battery cable attaches to (yes your test probes are at either end of the same wire). now turn the key to crank. a measurement above 1 volt is not satisfactory. it may not be THE problem, but should be corrected before continuing. to pin point the bad section simply place the test probes at any two points along the + positive path. Start with the center of the battery post, and 2 inches away where the bare wire slips into the battery terminal end. one tenth (0.10) of a volt is acceptable per connection. any higher than that (under load, which is to say while the key is held in the crank position) and the connection should be cleaned or repaired. Poke around and make corrections until you have under 1 volt from the battery (+) all the way to the solenoid stud.
Testing the ground path is basically the same with a few exceptions. There is no negative wire for the starter, it gets its ground from being bolted up, and relies on a good ground from the battery to the engine or transmission. Cars with remote mounted batteries often have no negative cable directly to the engine or transmission. They use one cable from the battery to a point on the frame, and then another cable from the frame to the engine / transmission. Both cables and all connections should be scrutinized. This method of grounding is not optimum. A piggy back, large gauge cable can be added with minimal effort.
To test the ground path start with one probe on the negative post on the battery, and the other probe on bare metal at the engine block or cylinder head. If you have already tested and repaired your positive cable the odds are that you'll measure more than 2 volts while the key is in the crank position. Use the same method as above to pin point the trouble section.

NO CLICK:
First make sure you have battery voltage at solenoid, (see 'test power to starter' above). Make sure the smaller lead on the solenoid is firmly attached and in good condition. Leave it attached while you make any / all measurements, this is critical. Place one test probe on the engine block or cylinder head, the other test probe on the small lead at the solenoid. If you measure above 10 volts while the key is held in the crank position than the solenoid windings have failed and the entire solenoid / starter must be repaired or replaced.
If you read under 10 volts then you have two likely possibilities. One is that the ground path for your starter circuit is not complete (see testing the ground path above), or your 'ignition switch' circuit including the famed 'brown wire', the ignition switch and all the cables and connections (red dots on the drawing above) involved must be tested. If an alarm has been installed, make sure to consider it and any relevant connections.
Why not start at the switch. Find the lead that brings power into the switch. place one probe at this point and the other at the engine block. Crank it. Less than 10 volts here and you need to start testing upstream. 10 volts or more means the switch may be suspect. Leave the probe at the same point on the switch and take the probe from the engine block and place it on the lead from the back of the switch to the solenoid. A measurement of 1 volt or more indicates the ignition switch has failed and must be repaired or replaced. Less than 1 volt means the problem is between the switch and the solenoid. Check and clean any connections you find.

footnotes:
* Cars with automatic transmission have a 'neutral safety switch', power from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid trigger will only flow when in Park or Neutral, assuming the switch is in good working order.
** Many analog volt meters require that the positive and negative test leads are connected to the appropriate (+/-) points in the circuit. When measuring for drops on the same path keep the positive test probe closest to the positive post at the battery.