Axial Flow Supercharger
06-02-2004, 09:25 PM
#79
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Best of luck. As someone said earlier, maybe teaming up with a company such as Racing Beat, to give you the money, facilities, and time to do the critical science part, instead of worrying about the marketing, would be the best idea. I noticed at the end of your first paper that you mentioned that...you seem a hell of a lot smarter than me, I think you would be able to do some incredible things for the '8 if you could give it 100%.
06-02-2004, 11:00 PM
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Richard -- thanks for sharing and getting our interest flowing. Having an Aero Eng. undergrad degree (too many years ago to remember my fluid dynamics!) I am intrigued by your application -- I vaugely remember working on a senior project to test and modify a multi-stage axial-flow compressor by varying the stationary blade angles.
IMO opinion your application is a potential fit for the RX-8 market -- like our car it is elegant and unique in design, lightweight, and efficient.
I might also suggest you re-think the business plan a little. It might seem inviting to enter the Honda market first -- being a huge market for performance parts. However, since you are delivering a product that is likely at the top end in terms of cost, quality, etc. -- entering a large and somewhat mature market first may not be the best use of your competitive advantage (technology and know-how). A strong business case could be made that entering a market that is emerging, has little direct competition and is technologically advanced would be a much better (more profitable) fit for your product. Your potential for profit margin and generating market image with your product is much higher in the RX-8 segment than in the Honda segment. Depending on your production volume capacity, entering a high margin, high image segment (RX-8) should allow you to generate much higher profit margin and leverage your strengths.
Just my opinion FWIW
IMO opinion your application is a potential fit for the RX-8 market -- like our car it is elegant and unique in design, lightweight, and efficient.
I might also suggest you re-think the business plan a little. It might seem inviting to enter the Honda market first -- being a huge market for performance parts. However, since you are delivering a product that is likely at the top end in terms of cost, quality, etc. -- entering a large and somewhat mature market first may not be the best use of your competitive advantage (technology and know-how). A strong business case could be made that entering a market that is emerging, has little direct competition and is technologically advanced would be a much better (more profitable) fit for your product. Your potential for profit margin and generating market image with your product is much higher in the RX-8 segment than in the Honda segment. Depending on your production volume capacity, entering a high margin, high image segment (RX-8) should allow you to generate much higher profit margin and leverage your strengths.
Just my opinion FWIW
06-02-2004, 11:24 PM
#83
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Richard,
I, too, am intrigued by your axial flow compressor/supercharger design. Your comments about operating range are quite interesting. Example: If you define a compressor design speed of 45k rpm at 9k rotary output speed (obviously I'm assuming a 5-to-1 gear ratio). Then on a standard day at idle, the compressor is operating at approximately 10% referred speed. As you pointed out, this is a much wider range of steady-state operation than a gas turbine normally experiences. We do of course have to get gas turbines started which requires at least transient operation through these speed ranges.
One of the benefits of an axial flow supercharger over a centrifugal design is that the flow lapse with speed tends to be flatter than a centrifugal compressor. As a result, you should be able to match the engine and compressor flow behavior more effectively and you would likely make a bit more power in the low speed range then centrifugal design (I need to run the numbers to figure this out for sure). Additionally, axial flow designs tend to have lower inertia then centrifs and this would improve acceleration behavior. Based on what I've seen, I think it is entirely possible to make a high quality axial flow supercharger that could be used effectively in an RX-8 application. What it costs to do this is outside of my experience level. Anyone got ballpark ideas??
As many people have pointed out. I believe the big hurdles will be in the implementation of the modified airflow sensing, fuel scheduling etc. I do not have experience here but it's my understanding that communicating through the firewall that Mazda has built into the CAN software has been the primary problem. I do not want to take anything away from Richard's thread here... but can anyone create a thread that talks to the specific issues with the CAN/OBDII communication protocols and any thoughts about the best ways to address these issues?
Thanks Richard for your openess and your rapid responses.
I, too, am intrigued by your axial flow compressor/supercharger design. Your comments about operating range are quite interesting. Example: If you define a compressor design speed of 45k rpm at 9k rotary output speed (obviously I'm assuming a 5-to-1 gear ratio). Then on a standard day at idle, the compressor is operating at approximately 10% referred speed. As you pointed out, this is a much wider range of steady-state operation than a gas turbine normally experiences. We do of course have to get gas turbines started which requires at least transient operation through these speed ranges.
One of the benefits of an axial flow supercharger over a centrifugal design is that the flow lapse with speed tends to be flatter than a centrifugal compressor. As a result, you should be able to match the engine and compressor flow behavior more effectively and you would likely make a bit more power in the low speed range then centrifugal design (I need to run the numbers to figure this out for sure). Additionally, axial flow designs tend to have lower inertia then centrifs and this would improve acceleration behavior. Based on what I've seen, I think it is entirely possible to make a high quality axial flow supercharger that could be used effectively in an RX-8 application. What it costs to do this is outside of my experience level. Anyone got ballpark ideas??
As many people have pointed out. I believe the big hurdles will be in the implementation of the modified airflow sensing, fuel scheduling etc. I do not have experience here but it's my understanding that communicating through the firewall that Mazda has built into the CAN software has been the primary problem. I do not want to take anything away from Richard's thread here... but can anyone create a thread that talks to the specific issues with the CAN/OBDII communication protocols and any thoughts about the best ways to address these issues?
Thanks Richard for your openess and your rapid responses.
06-03-2004, 01:17 AM
#84
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Richard, to echo RXhusker's thoughts,
Not to sound snobbish but the average RX-8 owner is more mature than the average Honda owner.
We don't dog our engines the way that crowd does and we typically strive for top notch installation. This means if your axial supercharger is a top notch product then we will be happy customers and you are less likely to get complaints about your product simply because some idiot abused it or installed it improperly.
RX-8 owners believe in FI, we want FI, we can afford FI, and no one else is giving us FI.
Sounds like a good market to me.
-Mr. Wigggles
Not to sound snobbish but the average RX-8 owner is more mature than the average Honda owner.
We don't dog our engines the way that crowd does and we typically strive for top notch installation. This means if your axial supercharger is a top notch product then we will be happy customers and you are less likely to get complaints about your product simply because some idiot abused it or installed it improperly.
RX-8 owners believe in FI, we want FI, we can afford FI, and no one else is giving us FI.
Sounds like a good market to me.
-Mr. Wigggles
06-03-2004, 08:33 AM
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Richard - to get back to your original question -- I am ready to write a check for the right FI application -- in fact I am past ready I am sure there are many others also waiting for a real FI application to hit the market for our RX-8.
I am sure there are many others also waiting for a real FI application to hit the market for our RX-8.
06-03-2004, 06:01 PM
#86
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Richard,
I agree with MrWiggles' comments, most RX8 owners are more mature and have a steady jobs, unlike the Honda crowd.
Word travel fast on this site. Witness what happen with the Canzoomer Piggyback ECUs. He has problems keeping up with demand! If your product is good, we will buy it and help you advertise it.
I agree with MrWiggles' comments, most RX8 owners are more mature and have a steady jobs, unlike the Honda crowd.
Word travel fast on this site. Witness what happen with the Canzoomer Piggyback ECUs. He has problems keeping up with demand! If your product is good, we will buy it and help you advertise it.
06-03-2004, 07:00 PM
#87
As one of the younger ones, at 18. i believe the statements above are right. the rx-8 is a booming bussiness that customers are willing to buy. Competition is low since products are only developing. Even as a poor college student, i would buy 
06-04-2004, 06:16 PM
#92
supercharger status
OK, OK, You guys have me. Today we spent the time examining an Rx 8 in detail. The space is tighter then thought. But it can be done. We are also pretty sure the electronics are doable. Next week the Mazda will take up concurent development with the Honda.
Honestly the Honda is easier and of course the compressors have been built. It just requires the streetable kit to be developed. The first compressor for the 8 will be built in about two weeks.
Then the hard part of fitting it into the car, The compressor will be size matched to the 8's mass flow. This can be tested on the bench.
It will make you guys happy to know that we are getting rotory help from established rotor heads. So less worry about our learnig curve. It'll be a month until any hard news for you. I'll keep you posted. If it becomes possable, pictures.
You don't have to bug me anymore, my partner has such a woody for an Rx-8 you can bet it'll get done.
Thanx, Richard
Hey Baller, are you a beautiful woman??
Honestly the Honda is easier and of course the compressors have been built. It just requires the streetable kit to be developed. The first compressor for the 8 will be built in about two weeks.
Then the hard part of fitting it into the car, The compressor will be size matched to the 8's mass flow. This can be tested on the bench.
It will make you guys happy to know that we are getting rotory help from established rotor heads. So less worry about our learnig curve. It'll be a month until any hard news for you. I'll keep you posted. If it becomes possable, pictures.
You don't have to bug me anymore, my partner has such a woody for an Rx-8 you can bet it'll get done.
Thanx, Richard
Hey Baller, are you a beautiful woman??
Last edited by Richard Paul; 06-13-2006 at 10:44 PM.
06-04-2004, 08:54 PM
#95
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having just read thru this thread for the first time i have just one comment- until this thread i was uninterested in FI for my 8. now i have started trying to think what i can sell to raise the money for your axial supercharger. bring it on sir i will be waiting!!
06-04-2004, 09:07 PM
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Originally posted by zoom44
having just read thru this thread for the first time i have just one comment- until this thread i was uninterested in FI for my 8. now i have started trying to think what i can sell to raise the money for your axial supercharger. bring it on sir i will be waiting!!
having just read thru this thread for the first time i have just one comment- until this thread i was uninterested in FI for my 8. now i have started trying to think what i can sell to raise the money for your axial supercharger. bring it on sir i will be waiting!!
06-07-2004, 08:44 AM
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From what I can tell, It seems to me that this Axial Flow Supercharger is a lot more sensible option for the 8 than a turbo for the street.
Because :-
1. - It should be a lot more drivable.
2. - It should be significantly cheaper.
3. - It should be less obtrusive and smaller.
I want one too!! Bring it on....
Because :-
1. - It should be a lot more drivable.
2. - It should be significantly cheaper.
3. - It should be less obtrusive and smaller.
I want one too!! Bring it on....
06-08-2004, 11:39 PM
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*wipes drool from chin*
Yes, it may be some hype at this point and could be several months from being a viable product for public consumption, but it looks damn good even this early in development. I'm patiently waiting for the perfect boost kit and will just have to see how this one develops.
Perhaps I'll now have to convince the wife that perhaps the kids can go to a public school after all. ;-)
Yes, it may be some hype at this point and could be several months from being a viable product for public consumption, but it looks damn good even this early in development. I'm patiently waiting for the perfect boost kit and will just have to see how this one develops.
Perhaps I'll now have to convince the wife that perhaps the kids can go to a public school after all. ;-)