So, you want to be a tuner? Look no further.
06-27-2014, 08:40 PM
#152
sure, right
regardless there is no huge difference and there's no reason you can't tune the AFR on an NA engine just using the fuel map rather than the VE map
by using the VE map you made other changes elsewhere that you aren't aware of, whereas the fuel map is OPEN LOOP - WOT only
regardless there is no huge difference and there's no reason you can't tune the AFR on an NA engine just using the fuel map rather than the VE map
by using the VE map you made other changes elsewhere that you aren't aware of, whereas the fuel map is OPEN LOOP - WOT only
06-27-2014, 09:26 PM
#153
Coming out of Kane's class earlier this month , I finally completed my tune today , thanks for all the help Kane !.
My S2 R3 feels great !
With respect to the VE map adjustments , I had to make a considerable amount of adjustments to specific points only because MAF and inj adj had no significant impact on those points( after scaling) . I guess cat- less mid pipe and RB cat-back combined with K&N drop in ,did make a huge difference, especially after the tune !
My S2 R3 feels great !
With respect to the VE map adjustments , I had to make a considerable amount of adjustments to specific points only because MAF and inj adj had no significant impact on those points( after scaling) . I guess cat- less mid pipe and RB cat-back combined with K&N drop in ,did make a huge difference, especially after the tune !
sure, right
regardless there is no huge difference and there's no reason you can't tune the AFR on an NA engine just using the fuel map rather than the VE map
by using the VE map you made other changes elsewhere that you aren't aware of, whereas the fuel map is OPEN LOOP - WOT only
regardless there is no huge difference and there's no reason you can't tune the AFR on an NA engine just using the fuel map rather than the VE map
by using the VE map you made other changes elsewhere that you aren't aware of, whereas the fuel map is OPEN LOOP - WOT only
In this instance while the changes were large, they were narrowly defined to a small load/rpm area and in multiple gears. This is an indication of Fuel VE. It could also be the MAF curve, but that requires matrixing the load/rpm and MAF volts which my software can do - but it's a huge PITA to do it by hand. Nevertheless, in an NA motor it's not a huge deal, and since he is going turbo anyway soon, the VE will have to be totally addressed anyway later on.
06-27-2014, 09:42 PM
#154
Mile High Eight
After driving around today to establish some LTFT, here are two compiled idle logs (morning and afternoon).
I'll take some logs next time I drive the car to see if my fuel trims get under control with the a +10% injector scale.
I'll take some logs next time I drive the car to see if my fuel trims get under control with the a +10% injector scale.
Last edited by Hydr0nium; 06-27-2014 at 09:54 PM.
06-27-2014, 10:07 PM
#155
ummm are you referencing a certain software program I beta tested and would love to get a final copy of? The same software that I was trying to hack (by changing the date on my computer) to play with. Would really love to see a final copy of said program...Maybe one day it will come around
06-27-2014, 10:51 PM
#157
Completely understand that. Thanks for introducing it to me. I wouldn't have been able to tune my old project car without it.
06-27-2014, 10:55 PM
#158
Registered
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: T&T , Caribbean
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fuel VE map changes calculated load - which affects everything (timing, OMP, fueling, etc) that uses calculated load. However, changing the target fuel map is an approach I only recommend AFTER the MAF, Injectors, Fuel VE fail to address a specific deviation in a specific gear.
In this instance while the changes were large, they were narrowly defined to a small load/rpm area and in multiple gears. This is an indication of Fuel VE. It could also be the MAF curve, but that requires matrixing the load/rpm and MAF volts which my software can do - but it's a huge PITA to do it by hand. Nevertheless, in an NA motor it's not a huge deal, and since he is going turbo anyway soon, the VE will have to be totally addressed anyway later on.
In this instance while the changes were large, they were narrowly defined to a small load/rpm area and in multiple gears. This is an indication of Fuel VE. It could also be the MAF curve, but that requires matrixing the load/rpm and MAF volts which my software can do - but it's a huge PITA to do it by hand. Nevertheless, in an NA motor it's not a huge deal, and since he is going turbo anyway soon, the VE will have to be totally addressed anyway later on.
07-02-2014, 07:50 PM
#159
Mile High Eight
After doing a couple itterations with a new MAF scale (accounting for altitude) and injector scale, my idle logs are looking excellent! I moved on to the 1.5K to 4K rpm band logs, and for the most part, they look good to. I do have two trouble spots, but I don't know how accurate they are.
My 1500rpm and 2500 rpm logs both show excessive short term fuel (in comparison to the rest). However, both of these logs were done with cruise control as low as it can go (~17 mph, 2nd and 3rd gear). Are these fuel trims a little whacked out of normal because I was logging while in cruise control at such a low speed?
If I shouldn't disregard these values, what adjustments would be recommended?
Thanks guys!
My 1500rpm and 2500 rpm logs both show excessive short term fuel (in comparison to the rest). However, both of these logs were done with cruise control as low as it can go (~17 mph, 2nd and 3rd gear). Are these fuel trims a little whacked out of normal because I was logging while in cruise control at such a low speed?
If I shouldn't disregard these values, what adjustments would be recommended?
Thanks guys!
07-05-2014, 09:34 AM
#161
I've just crossed the line for tuning. I have a theory, but someone might have tried it and excluded it for a reason, without me picking it up.
Idea: Interpolate values at MAF scaling. In stead of multiplying all values between break points with the same factor, use a variable factor depending on trim after next break point.
Say if I have +10% off at idle, ~5g/s, and +6% off at 9-20g/s, my thought was that you use 10% at 5g/s, then reducing gradually to 6% in middle of next range, ~15g/s. This might stabilize LTFT better?
Idiotic?
Idea: Interpolate values at MAF scaling. In stead of multiplying all values between break points with the same factor, use a variable factor depending on trim after next break point.
Say if I have +10% off at idle, ~5g/s, and +6% off at 9-20g/s, my thought was that you use 10% at 5g/s, then reducing gradually to 6% in middle of next range, ~15g/s. This might stabilize LTFT better?
Idiotic?
07-05-2014, 10:31 AM
#163
I've just crossed the line for tuning. I have a theory, but someone might have tried it and excluded it for a reason, without me picking it up.
Idea: Interpolate values at MAF scaling. In stead of multiplying all values between break points with the same factor, use a variable factor depending on trim after next break point.
Say if I have +10% off at idle, ~5g/s, and +6% off at 9-20g/s, my thought was that you use 10% at 5g/s, then reducing gradually to 6% in middle of next range, ~15g/s. This might stabilize LTFT better?
Idiotic?
Idea: Interpolate values at MAF scaling. In stead of multiplying all values between break points with the same factor, use a variable factor depending on trim after next break point.
Say if I have +10% off at idle, ~5g/s, and +6% off at 9-20g/s, my thought was that you use 10% at 5g/s, then reducing gradually to 6% in middle of next range, ~15g/s. This might stabilize LTFT better?
Idiotic?
It's exactly what you do in each of the closed loop fuel trim areas, which can be broken down as such on an S1:
0-12 g/s - idle
12-80 g/s - cruise
80 g/s & up - open loop/WOT, adjustment not really needed IMO unless FI
Make your adjustment in each area then grab two data points on each side of the transition points do a smoothing interpolation to blend them in
Where Kane and I disagree on method has to do with the tuning system being used. If you're tuning for NA on a flash based OE computer system the path is a lot simpler than the process he presents. The outputs define how the engine runs. The method used to provide the outputs is only relevant to how much time and effort you devote to achieving the same end result.
VE will vary by gear/accel rate. You only have one VE map which is why Mazda used multiple fuel maps; 1-2, 3-4, & 5-6 on early S1 and 1-3 & 4-6 on late S1
07-11-2014, 10:50 PM
#165
Mile High Eight
Update on my engine/tune situation. I took the car to the dealer, and as Kane suspected, my MAF readings were more than likely due to a low compression motor. I'm sure my elevation contributes to the low readings as well, but my motor did fail the compression test--so my 2nd reman is on it's way from Japan now.
Once I get the new motor in, I'll check my MAF readings and see what they SHOULD be at altitude.
Once I get the new motor in, I'll check my MAF readings and see what they SHOULD be at altitude.
07-28-2014, 09:43 AM
#166
Registered
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: West Palm Beach FL
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tuning Help
Hello,
I've created logs from 1500-6000. I've dialed in idle well, my 1500-4000 range looks pretty good, however, when I go into open loop I'm about 10% lean. It seems to fluctuate a bit, but it's not increasing or decreasing steadily so I think it's the Injector bank 2 and not the MAF. Can someone please take a look and let me know their thoughts? The file is in txt, but please change to xlsx.
Thanks,
I've created logs from 1500-6000. I've dialed in idle well, my 1500-4000 range looks pretty good, however, when I go into open loop I'm about 10% lean. It seems to fluctuate a bit, but it's not increasing or decreasing steadily so I think it's the Injector bank 2 and not the MAF. Can someone please take a look and let me know their thoughts? The file is in txt, but please change to xlsx.
Thanks,
07-28-2014, 02:31 PM
#168
In everything I have done, and have mentioned before, only one fuel map works, and they are backwards from other years and models in atr,
and i don't get those break points my system shows them at 10 and 20, not 12 and 80......
changing the MAF scale will change load substantially, I have had great success with adjusting the VE as needed, its not the first thing I go to, but it shouldn't be something you avoid changing.
infact I was able to reach near 0 LTFT by adjusting the VE rather then the MAF.
and i don't get those break points my system shows them at 10 and 20, not 12 and 80......
changing the MAF scale will change load substantially, I have had great success with adjusting the VE as needed, its not the first thing I go to, but it shouldn't be something you avoid changing.
infact I was able to reach near 0 LTFT by adjusting the VE rather then the MAF.
It's exactly what you do in each of the closed loop fuel trim areas, which can be broken down as such on an S1:
0-12 g/s - idle
12-80 g/s - cruise
80 g/s & up - open loop/WOT, adjustment not really needed IMO unless FI
Make your adjustment in each area then grab two data points on each side of the transition points do a smoothing interpolation to blend them in
Where Kane and I disagree on method has to do with the tuning system being used. If you're tuning for NA on a flash based OE computer system the path is a lot simpler than the process he presents. The outputs define how the engine runs. The method used to provide the outputs is only relevant to how much time and effort you devote to achieving the same end result.
VE will vary by gear/accel rate. You only have one VE map which is why Mazda used multiple fuel maps; 1-2, 3-4, & 5-6 on early S1 and 1-3 & 4-6 on late S1
0-12 g/s - idle
12-80 g/s - cruise
80 g/s & up - open loop/WOT, adjustment not really needed IMO unless FI
Make your adjustment in each area then grab two data points on each side of the transition points do a smoothing interpolation to blend them in
Where Kane and I disagree on method has to do with the tuning system being used. If you're tuning for NA on a flash based OE computer system the path is a lot simpler than the process he presents. The outputs define how the engine runs. The method used to provide the outputs is only relevant to how much time and effort you devote to achieving the same end result.
VE will vary by gear/accel rate. You only have one VE map which is why Mazda used multiple fuel maps; 1-2, 3-4, & 5-6 on early S1 and 1-3 & 4-6 on late S1
08-01-2014, 07:59 AM
#171
Registered
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
idle unstable
Hi all,
wondering whether some tuning gurus here can give some advises...
my car is running good except that the idle is having some 'tempers', not stable.
how do i attach pictures here?
anyway, i've uploaded my idle logs in my album:
RX8Club.com - 4DRcoupe's Album: 4DRcoupe - Picture
what could have caused the unstable idling? the STFT is simply all over the place in -ve zone. a case of simply too much fuel? the AFR doesn't really looked that rich to me.
fyi, it's a 2007 6MT with 130k km, engine ported, RB Revi intake, BHR coils and flywheel, catless, Knight Sport header and Fujitsubo catback.
the only tuning done is on the open loop fuel maps and idle maps have been adjusted to be about 900-1000rpm.
wondering whether some tuning gurus here can give some advises...
my car is running good except that the idle is having some 'tempers', not stable.
how do i attach pictures here?
anyway, i've uploaded my idle logs in my album:
RX8Club.com - 4DRcoupe's Album: 4DRcoupe - Picture
what could have caused the unstable idling? the STFT is simply all over the place in -ve zone. a case of simply too much fuel? the AFR doesn't really looked that rich to me.
fyi, it's a 2007 6MT with 130k km, engine ported, RB Revi intake, BHR coils and flywheel, catless, Knight Sport header and Fujitsubo catback.
the only tuning done is on the open loop fuel maps and idle maps have been adjusted to be about 900-1000rpm.
08-02-2014, 09:54 AM
#175
Registered
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: West Palm Beach FL
Posts: 164
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Update
Sorry for the txt files last time. Just to be sure I went back to stock and started from idle again. Here are JPG files showing where I'm at now and I followed these steps to reach this point.
1. I started at stock tune except I cut out the air pump (already deleted and capped the Solenoid for the evap system) and Cat (will be deleted after the tune is close to perfect) DTC's and lowered the max RPM for warmup. The only changes I've done to the car is removal of the VFAD (capped vacuum hose), Stock airbox with K&N drop in filter, Oil catch can with breather filter rather than running back to the intake (capped vacuum hose), BHR coils, plugs about 10k miles on them, throttle body bypass, brakes and shocks, Pettit-racing engine naturally aspirated, new narrow band O2 sensor.
2. I was running MAF about 4.7-4.9 g/s at idle (820-850 RPM) with no AC running, as well as about 10 points lean on my fuel trims.
3. A MAF adjustment of 9 percent brought my idle to 5.4-5.5 with no AC, and 6.1 with AC.
4. I was still about 6 points lean at idle so I decreased injector B1 by 6 percent to bring the trims within 1% of 0.
5. logged 1500-4000 numerous times and was within 1% of 0 fuel trims so I moved on to the 4k+ range.
These are the logs for the 4k plus ranges that I captured over 3 separate days with no change to the tune just to make sure. Any input or guidance would be greatly appreciated.
I've checked the vacuum system and can't find a leak, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. The only other issue I get is every once and while I'll get the P2259 Secondary Air control Circuit low code. However, since I don't have a secondary air system, I haven't done anything about it. I know that P2259 can also come up as SSV issues, but that's not the message I get with that code. Also, I removed my SSV and cleaned it just a month or two ago.
The Catalytic is at the end of it's life so it gets hot and I'm sure is costing me power. I'll gut it soon. Also the MazdaEdit program won't log Injector Pulse Width so I'm not sure about where the Inj B2 kicks in.
1. I started at stock tune except I cut out the air pump (already deleted and capped the Solenoid for the evap system) and Cat (will be deleted after the tune is close to perfect) DTC's and lowered the max RPM for warmup. The only changes I've done to the car is removal of the VFAD (capped vacuum hose), Stock airbox with K&N drop in filter, Oil catch can with breather filter rather than running back to the intake (capped vacuum hose), BHR coils, plugs about 10k miles on them, throttle body bypass, brakes and shocks, Pettit-racing engine naturally aspirated, new narrow band O2 sensor.
2. I was running MAF about 4.7-4.9 g/s at idle (820-850 RPM) with no AC running, as well as about 10 points lean on my fuel trims.
3. A MAF adjustment of 9 percent brought my idle to 5.4-5.5 with no AC, and 6.1 with AC.
4. I was still about 6 points lean at idle so I decreased injector B1 by 6 percent to bring the trims within 1% of 0.
5. logged 1500-4000 numerous times and was within 1% of 0 fuel trims so I moved on to the 4k+ range.
These are the logs for the 4k plus ranges that I captured over 3 separate days with no change to the tune just to make sure. Any input or guidance would be greatly appreciated.
I've checked the vacuum system and can't find a leak, but that doesn't mean there isn't one. The only other issue I get is every once and while I'll get the P2259 Secondary Air control Circuit low code. However, since I don't have a secondary air system, I haven't done anything about it. I know that P2259 can also come up as SSV issues, but that's not the message I get with that code. Also, I removed my SSV and cleaned it just a month or two ago.
The Catalytic is at the end of it's life so it gets hot and I'm sure is costing me power. I'll gut it soon. Also the MazdaEdit program won't log Injector Pulse Width so I'm not sure about where the Inj B2 kicks in.