olddragger

iTrader: (3)

If this causes anyone to think things through before you take your car on a track then it has served its purpose.
During an HPDE event at Road Atlanta a gentleman driving a corvette z06 lost control in the esses ( turn 4/5) and crashed. It was more of a side impact than front/back and he did not turn over. He had a street cage, a 4 point belt plus good seats. From what I understand he did not have a halo device.
Speeds in that area are anywhere from 90-110mph. I usually hit 100 in that area.

He died after a short stay in the local hospital. We do not know the details of his injuries other than it was a head injury.

Guys--this was a HPDE--not time trial, not associated with any racing groups, he was not running carelessly--we dont know what happened. Its a damned shame.

Two things I have learned from this.
1- Dont do HPDE's on a track that doesnt have some run off room. At Road Atlanta there is not much at certain key areas.
HPDE is supposed to be fun and instructional--so pay attention to what track you choose to learn on. That particular place, in the esses--has been a site for many an off track trip. Road Atlanta is a dangerous track when you drive 9-10/10. It is dangerous for a street car.
2- Dont drive a car anywhere near 10/10 without ALL the safety equipment you can get
I have decided I am not running Road Atlanta again. Too many other safer tracks for my purpose and my set up. Its a beautiful track and I will miss it.
Please think things through before you take you car on a track. This addiction can kill you.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Wow, sad to hear. Life is fragile, be careful out there guys.

Posted From RX8Club.com Android App

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

After a friend had a fractured cervical vertibrae in a similar situation...I decided that I couldn't justify driving without a harness and a Hans device or similar.

Condolances to his family for a tragic accident

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

I was at RA for the SCCA Runoffs in 79,80 & 81 as a corner worker. While most of the corners have lots of run off room, the exit of 5 has little to the right and is a magnet for heavier cars. I never liked the safety of that track. It improved when they put the chicane in for 13. When I was there, it hadn't been installed yet. Going 160 into a blind diving turn under the bridge was too much of a hazard. There was someone that had filmed the accidents at that turn and they were shown at worker parties. You kinda forget about 5 because nothing big usually happens there.
I haven't been back since.

kbrewmr2

track has changed ALOT since the 80s. Wider, plus walls in closer, plus no more gravity cavity.

In no way shape or form do most of the corners have "lots of runoff room" anymore. T10 gravel pit is about the "best" area

- KB, cornerworker and/or driver there from 2001-2008 including flagging for Petit Lemans in 2005

PS - what club was this with?

G_ man

iTrader: (2)

Yes it is sad to say the least,but it still is alot safer on the track than the roads we drive on everyday

40w8

Oldragger,

I've seen your vids and hitting 130mph freaks me out.

My favorite track is H2R, and I only get 90 there.

Just as much fun can be had on slow curvy tracks.

Sorry to hear someone had trouble out there.

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

Is it? That's the hype we here. But, when your taking a car to the limit on every corner, there are hazards involved. Those hazards increase with speed. The S'se at RAtl are fast. If you go off, you are into a guard rail or can hook a wheel in the grass.
I don't run at 100% on track days. That is left for events where times or positions count.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

I totally agree.
What I see is that drivers tend to get faster with experience, but they dont necessarily upgrade their safety equipment as they become faster. Experience also breeds confidence and some drivers begin to feel they have things under control. Thats a dangerous time and Road Atlanta is unforgiving.
This is 2 deaths in 2 years on this turn. The other one was a bike rider--last year.

By the way --he did not have an instructor with him as he was in the advanced class.

.

PedalFaster

There's a reason that a day's insurance on a DE event costs as much as a month's worth of regular car insurance, and that reason isn't that track days are safer than everyday commuting...

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

Anytime you drive your car in a fast manner there are risks. Anytime.
Heck anytime you get in a car there are risks. People just need to reduce the risks as much as possible. Every now and then people are unfortunitly reminded how dangerous this fun can be. Sure people die skiing, people die swimming, boating, playing football etc etc. too.
Just remember what you are doing and what the acceptable risks are to you.
Road Atlanta is no longer acceptable to me because I have not prepared my car for it. It may be acceptable for a lot of other drivers and thats ok. Just remember what you are doing and never take it casually. This is serious stuff.

kbrewmr2

you're also not required to buy trackday insurance before getting out there, so there is a little bit of apples:oranges comparisons.

That said, I've been a passenger into 3 different tirewalls and one been in light t-boning during a race as a driver... compared with only being in one single very light accident on the street. I'd rather go out doing something fun that sitting in a bubble behind a computer screen though!

adamwzl

iTrader: (3)

theres insurance for track?


Man thats horrible news . Hopefully that sends a warning to other track goers as well to think safety first.

MagnusRacing

iTrader: (2)

Certainly a dangerous hobby. I've seen an HPDE fatality as well (Willow Springs Raceway in CA) and it's a damn shame. Plenty of other fatalities as well - particularly in the international rally racing I do. 180mph on a mountainous Mexican highway is not the smartest thing I've ever done... hopefully I'll quit the hobby before it kills me.

jtspells

iTrader: (1)

This is horrible news, i hope the best for the family and those that lost a loved one.

Knowing this though we take a risk every day no matter if we are driving to work or jumping out of an airplane, if it is going to happen there is nothing that will stop it.

DrivingForce

Yes it is, and while tragic it's both safer for drivers & for potentially unwitting victims as the obstacles are less, the drivers and conditions are more predictable and most cases more qualified then the average grocery getting, mini van, soccer mom. The course is after all, lined with professionals to help in an immediate pinch and I've had the unfortunate experience to have required their aid on a couple of occasions over my racing career as does EVERY competitive driver at some point eventually and they've been fantastic and give me the confidence I need to drive fast and risk it all.

In the end driver judgement and a comprehensive understanding of both yours and your cars limits is what it comes down to but even still it can all go tragically wrong in a heart beat and that MUST be fully understood & accepted before getting on a track in ANY level event.

There in lies the key, if you're driving fast you're ALWAYS risking it all and ANYTHING can cause that fateful incident and if you don't accept that you shouldn't be driving fast ANYWHERE but still never on the open road over a controlled track setting. The primary difference is not risking it all with people who are neither qualified nor intended to be a potential victim of someone street driving senselessly.

R/A is a challenging track for the best of drivers, I set the class track record there my first time out and frankly it's because it's intimidating, technical and thrilling all at once that I excelled there, but honestly I'd not run anything close to MY 10/10ths there in a full on road car, I'd only run at about 7/10ths maximum and for most including me that would be more then enough..

That's kind of the problem with posting fractions of that nature it's really subjective as for example MY 10/10ths may still be 3/10ths or even 5/10ths more then another drivers 10/10ths or even less for that matter, so it's quite subjective and as stated comes down to a given drivers judgment and empirical experience in the end. I've taken other drivers around the track and they got out shaking their heads at what my 8/10ths was compared to their 10/10ths, that's not being egotistical it's just a reality.

Some years ago a driver planning to attend the Panoz driving school asked which track he should consider most and he was a complete novice on both the tracks and the cars. I recommended Sebring over R/A as it's just as fast (some parts faster), fun and technical (in some case even more so in spite of being flat) but more run off and not gravel traps (which I hate personally) or close concrete walls but actual run off to gain control which is the best situation for a driver to learn car control with.

My condolences to his family but take consolation in knowing that while we have no way of controlling how we leave this world (of course suicide not withstanding) we do have control over how we live our lives and enjoy it and he was probably having the most fun of his lifetime (relatively speaking) before this happened so he passed being happy and enjoying himself to the fullest and not slowly suffering in a cold bed until his last breath. While I don't have any death wish or suicide thoughts in the end that's one of my preferred ways to go if I had a choice and that's what I want my family to remember in their time of grief if it should happen..

Face it, performance driving is dangerous and that's WHY not everyone can nor should do it just because you have the desire and a fast car, it still takes skills, judgment and an athletic prowess in timing, reactions, focus and split second decisions that is often not considered. If it becomes too safe everyone will do it and it won't have any more appeal than driving to the local grocery store.. So drive safe and be safe, have fun but use good judgement and enjoy yourself accordingly but always respect the track, the cars and the drivers and understand you're taking a huge risk in the best of times regardless..

SilverEIGHT

This thread is worth bumping. I was just posting about this incident on GARX8Club.com and did a search to refresh my memory and OD's thread was in the google search. I didn't remember the guy had a street cage and 4 point harness. I think that was a false sense of security in this case. If you are going to drive these tracks beyond HPDE 1, you really need the proper safety gear. This incident was a turning point for me. Track was never the same after that. In 2010, I ran Time Trials without cage, harness and hans. My daily driver. Even had the standard leather seats, Only safety gear was my helmet. I was a very lucky guy because I was definitely driving beyond the limits. I finely got smart and decided if I can't afford the proper gear, I can't afford to chance my life. All for a teeshirt, sticker, and a trophy.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

The thrill too, don't forget the thrill ....

SilverEIGHT

Oh god! You are so correct. The thrill is the addicting part that makes you forget all of the other stuff. That's the part that is like crack.

coolcars44

iTrader: (6)

in feb we hit the wall at road atlanta down the back straight about 115mph straight in the wall our car is a well prepared chump car and we have alot of safety stuff.our car was destroyed front end ripped off the car and the rear crunched.our driver walked away without a scratch and alot of that is because cars in chump car are built really good

i use to do alot of hpde and time trails but now that i have run in a car with alot of safety stuff im glad i never crashed hard in one of those events.

SilverEIGHT

Are you one of the drivers of the RX-8 that Levi was driving when they went 3 wide and he got bumped?

EDIT:
Never mind! I just checked out a couple of your threads and found you are the owner of that car. If I was back into tracking... I would have been all over driving with you. That would have been a hoot.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

I on't drive without safety gear any more......unless I slow WAY down.

A Hans is well worth the price of admission...and anyone driving over highway speeds on the track should think about neck restraint

coolcars44

iTrader: (6)

yep i own the car and i cant wait to see what the new car does at daytona with no top we took 375 lbs of weight off the car so its gonna be intresting to see what happens

Arca_ex

iTrader: (10)

Blows my mind that club racing organizations allow 4 point belts. Would be interesting if there were more data on crashes like these in order to learn from it, but unfortunately that's usually not the case...


More food for thought, there are still some organizations that allow NA body style Miatas on track without any sort of rollover protection if they just have a hard top. And people think it is safe because these organizations allow this, because "they must be professionals". I've seen a hard top fall off of a car that was on a trailer on the highway, it shattered into a hundred pieces when it hit the ground.



Just goes to show that anything can happen. There was a death at a track that I run one year ago. If you look at the picture, there is pretty much nothing to hit there. There is a k-wall along the front straight, and the only other things out there are corner worker stations. There is massive amounts of runoff in almost every direction.

The car hit a corner worker station head on at about the halfway mark down the back straight. Four point belts. Passenger (guy's girlfriend) died. My guess is they both ended up in the footwells due to the design flaw of four point belts...

Chelsea Vu killed in Chuckwalla Valley Raceway crash | The Desert Sun | desertsun.com


http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ay-during-HPDE

RockLobster

NASA only allows 4-point belts with the FIA APPROVED ASM feature which has proven to prevent submarining injuries.

Also MX-5s are not allowed in NASA without a roll bar...

That said, I always strongly suggest full 6-point belts instead and a HANS (far better protection), with a race seat, and at least a proper roll bar for anyone going on track.

There was a pretty horrific accident in the recent SCCA majors event there. Guy in a 911, was barrel rolling down the backstraight and chain reaction collected 3 other cars in HUGE impacts. Vids are all over youtube....not pretty and some serious injuries...

Chad M
Chief Scrutineer NASA MW