As our American Touge 2 battle approaches December 19th we are gearing the car up for its showing. We just finished the alignment on the car and wanted to share our results for those with similar track needs and setups.

First off, we are running the Agency Power Sway Bar Competition Package with JIC strut bars, and JIC FLTA2 coilovers. Our rear control arms have all remained the stock. To get the most handling out of the car for track compeition, this is how we set it up on our car.

The front has -2.3degrees of camber, 7.0degrees of caster, and .09degrees of toe.

The rear has -2.9degrees of camber and .15degrees of toe.

These are on our 19x8 and 19x10 inch wheels.

http://vrsm.vividracing.com/clientuploads/_photos/_127/_3067.jpg

Very cool car, if you guys would answer a few questions. What width tires are you guys running front to rear?

And how, if at all, has the staggered width affected the car's balance and how the sway bars were adjusted?

I'm really just interested in the finer aspects of suspension tuning and would like to hear your rationale for how you upgraded the vehicle.

thanks

Thanks!

We run BFG KDW GForce 2 tires front and rear. We have run these on our EVO VIII and some other cars with great results. Now on the track we might drop to 18" and run R compound, but we might leave it as is.

The front is a 235/35/19 and the rear is a 275/30/19. Staggard is the best for RWD cars. Gives the car more foot on the ground in the rear to help with traction. Sway bars were adjusted according to our driving style. We like a bit more oversteer so we stiffened the rear up alot. The front is set on the mid setting.

would you recommend that setup for everyday driving?
with that sort of samber, how long do you think the tyres will last?


The front is a 235/35/19 and the rear is a 275/30/19.

thats probably as good as you will get to the factory spec overall diameter.
had the same setup for my 19"

Run -1 degree in the front and -.5 degree in the rear. Make sure the Toe is set accordingly as well.

Thanx vivid, I assume the front toe is out? and the rear toe is in?
I never know much what caster does... a little lecture would be nice. :]

does the car have that much power that you need 2" wider wheels in the back?

sounds like that came from Van Diesel hisself

I could yo be more "precise" for the modification on standart rx8 (with 18' wheel)

we should put on the front :
xx degrees of camber
xx degrees of caster
xx degrees of toe

we should put on the front :
xx degrees of camber
xx degrees of caster
xx degrees of toe


thanks a lot

Vivid Racing,
I'm confused. You say"We like a bit more oversteer so we stiffened the rear up alot". And yet you put bigger tires on the rear. Running a staggard configuration would give you more rear traction and make oversteer more difficult. Could you explain?

^^^
Al, I was actually thinking the same thing as far as tire width. Personally, I've never liked the idea of staggered tires, but to each his own and their respected driving style.

Caster is the angle of the wheel ahead/behind the mounting point. Think of a shopping cart wheel; that's negative caster. If it was flipped around, and the wheel is ahead of the pivot point, thats positive caster.

More positive caster makes the steering heavier, but more responsive. Less caster makes the steering lighter and less twitchy. For performance applications, you generally want the most amount of caster possible, after setting camber.

Caster only applies to wheels that are steered, usually just the front.

Thanks!

We run BFG KDW GForce 2 tires front and rear. We have run these on our EVO VIII and some other cars with great results. Now on the track we might drop to 18" and run R compound, but we might leave it as is.

The front is a 235/35/19 and the rear is a 275/30/19. Staggard is the best for RWD cars. Gives the car more foot on the ground in the rear to help with traction. Sway bars were adjusted according to our driving style. We like a bit more oversteer so we stiffened the rear up alot. The front is set on the mid setting.

:D You guys are funny.... Staggard might be the ticket if your car had some power and needed a bigger rear tire.. All you have done is short changed the front end. You should be on 275 all around. Our stock class race cars are on 245s all around, you are smaller front and wider rear on a car that is prone to understeer. I guess when you guys are done with the bling bling show car stuff and hit the track you might find that out.

At 7stock one of the drift teams was telling us that could not get thier car to turn... They ran the same dumb @ss tire stagger you guys are on, no wonder it would not turn. :(

Maybe one day Mazda will be smart and put a staggered setup on the 8 from the factory... No they wont, they want the car to have some level of performance. ;)

thanx tuj for the caster explaination. :]
I agree w/ the others about staggered, I personally run 245s all around. and dont like the idea of wider rear. Prefer to keep the car neutral. If you look at bestmotoring videos, hot options etc, most their tuned cars are running the same tire width all around.

What is it that we can run up front - 265 with the fenders rolled and 255 without?

I've been thinking I'd like to upgrade to either at the point when I go with a supercharger, but I want to leave the car neutral like it was from the factory. Until FI arrives, 225's is plenty for me.

Well, I'm not sure I totally agree with the people who are against staggered setups. The Corvette's and S2000's use it quite effectively. But those cars are set up like that from the factory. Still, the hot combo in 04 for the S2000 was 245F/275R.

But generally speaking, the staggered does promote understeer. There is nothing inherent about a staggered setup that makes it any better or worse than an even setup. Its still all about tuning.

^^^ I agree w/ tuj on this part. I know many stock FR nowadays run staggered.

In some bestmotoring/hot option episodes, if you look at the amuse S2000, they actually run 255s all around instead of the stock staggered set up. There was another episode of NAs vs turbos. I think all the GTRs were running same all around, not staggered.

My thoughts are simply that if the 8 came with a non-staggered set-up than Mazda tuned the car to be as such. Though perhaps they did so also for ease of rotating tires/tire wear and to make it more owner friendly...in any case, I guess with adjustable sway bars and such a staggered 8 could be made neutral like it was from the factory.

What is it that we can run up front - 265 with the fenders rolled and 255 without?

I've been thinking I'd like to upgrade to either at the point when I go with a supercharger, but I want to leave the car neutral like it was from the factory. Until FI arrives, 225's is plenty for me.

I have 265s all around. I have seen 275 front and rear on lowered cars with stock fenders.

what rims you running ULLLOSE? not stock rite?

:D You guys are funny.... Staggard might be the ticket if your car had some power and needed a bigger rear tire.. All you have done is short changed the front end. You should be on 275 all around. Our stock class race cars (#) are on 245s all around, you are smaller front and wider rear on a car that is prone to understeer. I guess when you guys are done with the bling bling show car stuff and hit the track you might find that out.

At 7stock one of the drift teams was telling us that could not get thier car to turn... They ran the same dumb @ss tire stagger you guys are on, no wonder it would not turn. :(

Maybe one day Mazda (#) will be smart and put a staggered setup on the 8 from the factory... No they wont, they want the car to have some level of performance. ;)
How about this, you're right ... I know it, you know it, guys with track experience know it. Instead of bashing them, how about get in touch with them. Let them pay you as a consultant to do their suspension setup. That way the 8 does better at the competition, and everybody is happy :)

Stagger is just a for looks thing 99% of the time. About the only time you 'need' it is if you're putting down something like 400hp at the wheels. And even then it's just for the street. The only cars running stagger in real racing are 911's, because they're so incredible tail happy and have all the weight back there.

Based on tuj's explaination on caster, wouldnt that be like changing the wheelbase of the car?

what rims you running ULLLOSE? not stock rite?

Our street tires are Kumho V700 Ecstas, 265-35-18 on stock wheels. For racing we use the Kumho V710, 245-35-18 on 18X8 SSR comps.

How about this, you're right ... I know it, you know it, guys with track experience know it. Instead of bashing them, how about get in touch with them. Let them pay you as a consultant to do their suspension setup. That way the 8 does better at the competition, and everybody is happy :)

Stagger is just a for looks thing 99% of the time. About the only time you 'need' it is if you're putting down something like 400hp at the wheels. And even then it's just for the street. The only cars running stagger in real racing are 911's, because they're so incredible tail happy and have all the weight back there.

I can understand where you are coming from. On the other hand as a "vendor" here people are going to listen to them and assume they know what they are talking about. Unfortunately there is no requirement when you start selling parts that you have a clue what they do. .
These guys have a terrible rep all over the Internet, I am starting to see why.
When you make blanket statements like "staggered is best for rwd" without any data points, testing or anything to back it up you open yourself up to ridicule.

Based on tuj's explaination on caster, wouldnt that be like changing the wheelbase of the car?

Not if the center of the wheel doesn't change, which it doesn't. The upper ball joint location is moved in relation to the lower join, thus changing the angle of the axis that the wheel pivots on.

Look at this picture here:
http://www.i-club.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/386

The pair of slots in the center allow the top of the shock to move in towards the engine, increasing negative camber. Once this is set, a pin put into one of the series of holes determines caster. Thus caster should generally be set after camber, as what camber you have affects the max caster value, and camber is more important.

By rotating the wheel around an axis that is not perfectly vertical, we gain negative camber on the outside front wheel when we turn in, which is very nice. BTW: OEM adjustment is usually via eccentric bushings, not sweet plates like the one in that pic.

These guys have a terrible rep all over the Internet, I am starting to see why.
When you make blanket statements like "staggered is best for rwd" without any data points, testing or anything to back it up you open yourself up to ridicule.
They do a decent job for people here far as I know, that's all I care about is how they treat the people here.

About not knowing what's right, that certainly comes from hanging out in 'ricer' circles ... don't hate :)

I would suggest (not hating :p ) a change in tires also... Only after knowing the offset of the wheels that vivid put on though ;)

Actually, I'd get rid of the 235/35 in favor of a 245/35 to keep the rolling diameter closer to stock. That is ofcourse if the offset of the tire doesn't allow the same 275/30 19 (which is what I'd put.

Stiffening up the rear too much causes you to lose traction in the rear, okay for drifting, but from what I've seen of touge battles they're timed so traction is a good thing. It seems like you cut off a toe to fit a better shoe on your foot (not hating!!!). Also, the camber on the rear seems a bit much for the width of the tire and the toe is a bit off what I would do.

Your current set up seems to invite some bad understeer (Drift king is always bitchin "undah undah undah") with a potential for snap oversteer.

An AutoX set up is probably not the best for this application, but it be close due to the weight transitions you'll be making.

oh, and incase I wasn't clear... I want Vivid to kick ASS and represent the 8! ...that and I'm very opinionated so if I can throw my 2 cents in, I'll throw a nickle ;)

After watching the Drift King bad mouth the "slow 8" only to be surprised by it's handling... I really hope a boosted version with GREAT handling will shut him up. :cool:

...btw: if you can get the 4.77 final and some underdrive pullies, do it. :rolleyes: (I'm at it again :o )

Ya, I thought that was a little strange, wide tires and wheels with a staggered set up on a stock 8 with no RWP.

Sorry, but Vivid did well when I bought from them and I would recomend everyone to buy parts from them. Just make sure you know what you want, what you need, what works. Same goes for any purchase anywhere.

hmm, no replies. their poster is prob yelling at the guys who put the car together and asking why they out on the parts that they did.

I can understand where you are coming from. On the other hand as a "vendor" here people are going to listen to them and assume they know what they are talking about.


kind of like a guy who doesn't have the fastest car but manages to win a National Championship, eh? :p:

:naughty:

How about this, you're right ... I know it, you know it, guys with track experience know it. Instead of bashing them, how about get in touch with them. Let them pay you as a consultant to do their suspension setup. That way the 8 does better at the competition, and everybody is happy :)

Stagger is just a for looks thing 99% of the time. About the only time you 'need' it is if you're putting down something like 400hp at the wheels. And even then it's just for the street. The only cars running stagger in real racing are 911's, because they're so incredible tail happy and have all the weight back there.
When I brought this up, I wasn't trying to bash the guy. I mearly wanted to know his thoughts on how he came up with this combination. I don't have a great deal of experiance with them, but Vivid has done right by me. They treated me well on the set of swaybars I just bought. Price was good and they were shipped promptly.:)

Look at this picture here:
http://www.i-club.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/386

The pair of slots in the center allow the top of the shock to move in towards the engine (#), increasing negative camber. Once this is set, a pin put into one of the series of holes determines caster. Thus caster should generally be set after camber, as what camber you have affects the max caster value, and camber is more important.

By rotating the wheel around an axis that is not perfectly vertical, we gain negative camber on the outside front wheel when we turn in, which is very nice. BTW: OEM adjustment is usually via eccentric bushings, not sweet plates like the one in that pic.
You forgot to say that camber plates are only good for strut suspension and will make no difference when used on an RX-8.

You forgot to say that camber plates are only good for strut suspension and will make no difference when used on an RX-8.

http://www.shaneracing.com/RX8_Performance_Suspension_Parts.html

(scroll down to the camber plates near the bottom).

Wrong.

http://www.shaneracing.com/RX8_Performance_Suspension_Parts.html

(scroll down to the camber plates near the bottom).
What does it matter if you move the upper shock mounting point when the wheel's alignment and motion is described by double wishbones? :confused:

Just because someone sells something...oh, wait...we're not supposed to talk like that. :x

Wrong.

http://www.shaneracing.com/RX8_Performance_Suspension_Parts.html

(scroll down to the camber plates near the bottom).
Now if they said they were pillowball upper mounts I would have no problem. But as I said before, camber plates are useless on the RX-8. They will do nothing to alter suspension geometry.

Actually, they will alter geometry. If you move the top mounting point of the shock inboard, you lower the car, which will gain camber by the design of the suspension.

When I brought this up, I wasn't trying to bash the guy. I mearly wanted to know his thoughts on how he came up with this combination. I don't have a great deal of experiance with them, but Vivid has done right by me. They treated me well on the set of swaybars I just bought. Price was good and they were shipped promptly.:)
No worries buddy, I wasn't referring to you about the bashing!

Just to be clear also, I also wasn't going after them or implying as such. I really was just curious about their set-up and how they came to it. I'm trying to learn the aspects of fine suspension tuning and am finding it more complex than I first suspected.

Actually, they will alter geometry. If you move the top mounting point of the shock inboard, you lower the car, which will gain camber by the design of the suspension (http:///#).Then you need to go out and buy them and let us know if they increase negative camber more then .001 degrees. Some people just can't accept they are wrong. :crazy:

Edit: And some of us can't accept we are being poked with a sharp stick....

Actually, they will alter geometry. If you move the top mounting point of the shock inboard, you lower the car, which will gain camber by the design of the suspension.

The upper and lower control arm control the camber curve. The shock is just along for the ride on an RX8.

This is what I was talking about, because someone sells a part people think it works. The performance aftermarket industry has the worst customer service, that company is misleading buyers. It is a rare day when you find a good shop to deal with, if you have found one hold on to them.

I dont think Shane Racing is a site vendor, so we can pick on them..... I mean speak the truth. :ar:

forget about camber...those plates "really stiffen the front end"...I'm buying 7!!!
:lol:

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