August 2005 Motor has a comparo between the SE RX-8 (Shinka) and the Munro CV8.

I'll cut to the chase.....the RX-8 gets the nod.

The numbers just don't stack up for it (it's more expensive by $2500, slower in a straight line, slower around a race track and it uses more fuel), but the Mazda's got a charm that gets under your skin. If that seems like a whimsical reason to award a comparo winner then so be it. Plenty of people will buy it for less solid reasons.

Imagine how much they would have liked it if a Cloth Pack ($8500 cheaper) went up against the Munro. The article did not mention any SE features at all (with the exception of the beige leather), so the SE got no votes for winning the bling trophy by a country mile.

I hate the SE (Shinka), but it's nice to see that motoring journalists in this country can still pick a winner independant of who pays the bills (Holden advertise big in Motor, Mazda don't). Well done boys, you get criticised for bias fairly often, but not from this little black duck :) .

Cheers,
Gomez.

(Taylor....send the cheque to the usual address ;) )

Read the article , no offense but you are comparing Old world teckhnology being that of the monaros lousy old engine and gearbox with the mazdas latest :cool:

I live near a redneck who happens to have a Monaro and i take great pleasure in wooping his ass specially in the corners and roundabouts , i am accelerating/steering intu a rounabout while he is braking :D

No comparison especially in handling and smoothness heck i have more problems shacking off the assholes in Utes .

B...free
michael

really rx8 faster than a monaro in a straight line?? u sure? :confused:

Funny how coincidentally this thread came up...... last night on the way home I had a modified Monaro trying to keep up with me through some twisties........ all was well until the road straightened up and he left me for dead. :(

really rx8 faster than a monaro in a straight line?? u sure? :confused:

Depends on the driver, the Monaro has heaps of grunt but not exactly a great gearbox/clutch setup.

really rx8 faster than a monaro in a straight line?? u sure? :confused:

In the article the Monaro was faster down the quarter mile. A 14.3 compared to a 14.6. The reviewer just prefered the overall feel of the RX8 more. The RX8 always does well when the reviewer has other criteria for a good car other than how fast it is in a straight line!

The Munro was never on my list when I went shopping...and won't be next time, either. I like the way the 8 does it by balnce, technology and overall finesse. Still not a lot around that matches it in these areas, either

The 8 is much easier to drive fast....

I don't think I can control the beast of the Monaro on the track. Yes if you put Dean Evans or Jimmy Richards in there he will drive faster than in the 8.... But not for me :)

I've always thought of the Monaro as big, dumb and crude - a bit like the big forwards we all used to play footy with - effective in limited situations but you wouldn't want to live with 'em.

Apart from Holden's legendary build quality (not :p ), you have to put up with a prehistoric gearbox and Yank styling so they can sell more GTOs.

No, I think there's really no contest (except in a street drag, which is so last year people). I'll take a mobile fly-half over a prop any day! ;) :D :D

really rx8 faster than a monaro in a straight line?? u sure? :confused:

I was quoting the magazine and this is what they said ABOUT THE RX-8....

The numbers just don't stack up for it (it's more expensive by $2500, slower in a straight line, slower around a race track and it uses more fuel), but the Mazda's got a charm that gets under your skin. If that seems like a whimsical reason to award a comparo winner then so be it. Plenty of people will buy it for less solid reasons.

So, in spite of it's extra cost, fuel use, and time down the quarter.....it still wins.
Sorry for the confusion... :)

Gomez.

I used to drive an xr6t , which is faster than a monaro in a straight line and also feels better to drive. I would still choose the RX8 over it (in fact I DID choose it over the Xr6T).
The mazda just feels so much better and you can drive it so much faster.

That said , I loved the way the XR6 could press you into your seat :-D

Funny how coincidentally this thread came up...... last night on the way home I had a modified Monaro trying to keep up with me through some twisties........ all was well until the road straightened up and he left me for dead. :(


I was tailing a new M3 through the hills, couldn't shake me through the corners, however when the road straightened up left me for dead only to get right on his ass when we got to the twisties again. We both pulled up together at a house inspection, I smirked @ him and said to him "nice car", he ignored me...LOL @ him. The M3 is a nice car, but gotta admit the 8 is nicely engineered, just needs a tad more grunt.

I was tailing a new M3 through the hills, couldn't shake me through the corners, however when the road straightened up left me for dead only to get right on his ass when we got to the twisties again. We both pulled up together at a house inspection, I smirked @ him and said to him "nice car", he ignored me...LOL @ him. The M3 is a nice car, but gotta admit the 8 is nicely engineered, just needs a tad more grunt.

Just what I always thought - RX8 owners have a sense of humour, whilst M3 owners...don't. :p :D :D

I remember at the start of the Sydney run an older dude showed up at Dural Maccas when a bunch of us were there. He sat in his car munching his congealed fat and eyed us all for a while - looked quite jealous he did. Then, he pulled out and made a point of flooring it once around the roundabout as if to say "I may have no friends but look at me, my car's fast!" Must have been a merchant banker (rhyming slang).

I have to say...I like M3's. Nice power and balance from a sweet NA motor. Of course, that does not extend to some of the duckwits that drive them ;)

For me, the problem is that the Monaro, WRX, BMW (possible exception the Z3) and other have is that they all look like ordinary sedans with bits added on in an attempt to make them a "sports car".. Lipstick on a pig really.. The RX-8, Porsche, Lotus and the like are designed from the ground up to be sports cars - and they always look and feel much better than the family sedan frankenstiens that they complete with in the marketplace..

I have to say...I like M3's. Nice power and balance from a sweet NA motor. Of course, that does not extend to some of the duckwits that drive them ;)

Agree with all that! :)

I've always thought of the Monaro as big, dumb and crude - a bit like the big forwards we all used to play footy with - effective in limited situations but you wouldn't want to live with 'em.

Apart from Holden's legendary build quality (not :p ), you have to put up with a prehistoric gearbox and Yank styling so they can sell more GTOs.

No, I think there's really no contest (except in a street drag, which is so last year people). I'll take a mobile fly-half over a prop any day! ;) :D :D

Ditto. I couldn't agree more

The Rx8 is slower around the race track?

Must be alot of straights. :D:D

Did you check out the 911 vs. bike...

QUOTE: "WOW! This is the fastest production car in a straight line in Australia!"

Oh, I saw them on Pyrmont Road taking out there 350z, type S and clio sport

and decided to play cat and mouse.

Although I've gotta admit, when I went down the National Parks, the red elise wasn't really able to get away from me - no power, no torque, but then it's heaps light, and it was sexy, honestly...

Finally got a chance to read the article in question. A bit lightweight and lacking depth of analysis but at least we got the nod.

I found the performance stats interesting. Aways less than a second behind the Munro and only 0.3 seconds difference in the 0-100 sprint. Unless you had one beside you, I doubt most people would notice such a marginal difference in performance in day to day driving.

However, you would notice things like the gear shift and handling, not to say looks, etc. Probably why the 8 came out on top.

How did an RX-8 perform that close to a Monaro? Your Monaro CV8 is the same as our 2004 5.7L GTO state-side -- a car that runs 0-100 (assuming you meant MPH) a whopping 3 seconds (about 25%) faster than an RX-8. And if you meant 100kph, the difference is still almost a full second.

The driver of their Monaro simply must not have known what he was doing -- he only pulled a 14.3 in the 1/4-mile when he should have been able to pull a Mid-13. That's surprising because he was able to get very respectable times from the RX-8.

How did an RX-8 perform that close to a Monaro? Your Monaro CV8 is the same as our 2004 5.7L GTO state-side -- a car that runs 0-100 (assuming you meant MPH) a whopping 3 seconds (about 25%) faster than an RX-8. And if you meant 100kph, the difference is still almost a full second.

The driver of their Monaro simply must not have known what he was doing -- he only pulled a 14.3 in the 1/4-mile when he should have been able to pull a Mid-13. That's surprising because he was able to get very respectable times from the RX-8.

I was similarly surprised Sigma, which is why I commented on it. The journo did say that neither car achieved it's best ever sprint times so there is probably a lot in what you say.

Just dug out Wheels Magazine which records 5.8 secs for 0-100km/h for the manual Monaro CV8 and 6.4 secs for the manual RX8. They test two-up, which indicates the Motor scribbler needs to work on his techique I'd say. ;)

It is much harder to drive a Monaro than an RX-8... I think I had a look at the Monaro driver during the track day and he does not seems to like his car being passed by a black 8 ;)

Just as a footnote to this thread, I read today that production of the Monaro is scheduled to cease later this year (to maintain resale values :rolleyes: ).

Of course, Holden will continue to make GTOs for the yanks.

'Nuff said.

what will fat, bald middle aged bogans with a little cash do for their mid life crisis car now then?

the mind boggles.. ;)

Rowds

what will fat, bald middle aged bogans with a little cash do for their mid life crisis car now then?

the mind boggles.. ;)

Rowds

Maybe they'll go back to buying Harleys! :p :D

Good thing really - all that polishing in the driveway to impress the neighbours increases the chance of the thing falling on them, thus lessening the baby boomer pension impost on the rest of us!! ;) :D :D

what will fat, bald middle aged bogans with a little cash do for their mid life crisis car now then? .. ;) Rowds

Geez, with a demographic like that, no wonder they're going out of production. On the other hand, the dearth of slim, devilishly handsome studs like us could be a reason for RX-8's not being every second car on the road.

Geez, with a demographic like that, no wonder they're going out of production. On the other hand, the dearth of slim, devilishly handsome studs like us could be a reason for RX-8's not being every second car on the road.

Indeed! I'm reliably informed I continue to look debonair, even with my baseball cap on backwards1 :cool: :D :eek: :eek: :eek:

Indeed! I'm reliably informed I continue to look debonair, even with my baseball cap on backwards1 :cool: :D :eek: :eek: :eek:

Impossible! Even if you wore an official Labrat cap (available for a few measly bucks through our website) back the front you could not possibly look debonair. Does Leighton Hewitt look debonair? I ask you!!! Howeverrrr... a Labrat hat worn the right way round gives the distinguished wearer a certain dashing style.

an official Labrat cap (available for a few measly bucks through our website)

There's a website AND a cap... What's the link?? Do you take PayPal??

There's a website AND a cap... What's the link?? Do you take PayPal??

What a comeback! And labrat, like BVD, took the hook, the line and the sinker :D

:o Oh well, it was better than admitting I might be potentially challenged in the follicle department...and that I favour a certain cut in double-breasted suits :eek: Not that I'm admitting any of that, of course. :(

There's a website AND a cap... What's the link?? Do you take PayPal??

The website is http://www.multitrator.com , and no we don't take Paypal. The price is AUD20.00 + AUD3.00 postage in Oz. Send an email to labrat@multitrator.com with your mailing address and a money order or personal cheque. Our mailing address is Multitrator Pty Ltd, PO Box 5536, Brendale, Qld 4500. I've only got a few left in stock at present, so if I run out it could be a few weeks to get a new batch in.

Sorry, I missed the linky thingy. Website is www.multitrator.com, and click the Merchandise tag.

What happened to the T-shirts?? The Black one would look good on the Finance Director..

I'm in for a cap - come along to the nationals and I will pay the $20 when we start heading down to Goulburn.. You don't have to bring the car - there are a few other Queenslanders looking for a relief driver for the trip down. Much money to be made from cash flushed RX-8 owners.. :D

On the top gear BBC program the rx8 was 2 seconds quicker than the monaro around their test track. All the times for the cars that they have tested can be found on their web site.

Multitrator huh?

Sounds like a terrorist cell. ;) :D :D

As there was a queue at the car wash today - I lashed out and bought the Aug Motor magazine.. Read the comparo - good comments..

It was interesting to note the difference in disk brake rotor sizes.. The 8's are slightly bigger.. I guess that I thought that a car weighing 360kg more would have MUCH bigger brakes.. :eek:

In the same magazine is the new STI - that is a REALLY ugly and cheap looking car...

On the top gear BBC program the rx8 was 2 seconds quicker than the monaro around their test track. All the times for the cars that they have tested can be found on their web site.


Subaru Impreza STI - 1.30.1
Vauxhall Monaro VXR - 1.30.16 (NEW monaro with 400hp, like the new GTO)
Audi S4 - 1.30.9
Porsche 911 turbo - 1.31.0
BMW M3 - 1.31.8
Mazda RX8 - 1.31.8
Cadillac CTS-V - 1.33.3
Holden Monaro - 1.33.9 (lap was very WET)

Your Monaro CV8 is the same as our 2004 5.7L GTO state-side -- a car that runs 0-100 (assuming you meant MPH) a whopping 3 seconds (about 25%) faster than an RX-8. And if you meant 100kph, the difference is still almost a full second.
The base holden coupe is the Monaro CV8, the GTO simply has more power and better suspension tuning etc (not quite HSV but damn close). HSV offers the clubbie then GTO then GTS, HSV also has a 4WD coupe 4 (priced a little bit higher than the GTO) that would kill any RX8 and most jap cars. After this would be the race ready GTS-R with many supercar type bits stuffed inside.

If you want faster Holden/Elfin also sells a very limited number of supercars like the streamliner and the clubman. Both are track ready (can be driven on normal roads) and sports a detuned LS1 (245kw). Dont let this fool you though, both achieves a 0-60 (0-100kph) time of 3.2sec.

A coupe 4 would kill most Jap cars...

Ya gotta be kidding me. That's a very bold statement.

R34 GTR = Coupe 4? Price wise, Yes, but other than that...Hmmm

Jap quality is undeniably better, regardless of what make.

From what I've seen on wheels?, Coupe 4 rates pretty poor with 0-100 times etc

considering it is the priciest car on that specific test.

The police in NSW will be one of the first to use it. Its main job is chasing ram raiders using high performance imports i.e. subbies. The coupe 4 has a detuned LS engine producing 370hp.

No the godzilla (R34 GTR) is not the coupe 4, although both are 4WD's. The R34 can kill the coupe 4, however add a TT (like those from APS) and youll easily have a 4WD LS1 producing over 800hp.

R34 GTR = Coupe 4? Price wise, Yes, but other than that...Hmmm
Price wise the new coupe4 and the GTR (great condition) are around the same price bracket. GTRs in australia are around the 80K mark.

Jap quality is undeniably better, regardless of what make.??????? right, just keep on believing that. Holden is not a typical GM, this especially applies to HSV products (with its own race ready after market products). FYI HSV is like AMG of merc or M of BMW.

From what I've seen on wheels?, Coupe 4 rates pretty poor with 0-100 times etcThe only review for the coupe 4 (0-100kph(?)) was not conducted on a track but on gravel (to show case its 4WD system), the coupe 4 achieved a time of 6sec, which is pretty good on a loose surface.

Welcome back, BTW.... :)

Here it is
http://www.fast-autos.net/holden/coupe42.jpg
http://www.fast-autos.net/holden/coupe414.jpg

Subaru Impreza STI - 1.30.1
Vauxhall Monaro VXR - 1.30.16 (NEW monaro with 400hp, like the new GTO)
Audi S4 - 1.30.9
Porsche 911 turbo - 1.31.0
BMW M3 - 1.31.8
Mazda RX8 - 1.31.8
Cadillac CTS-V - 1.33.3
Holden Monaro - 1.33.9 (lap was very WET)
TG have done a lap with the Stig on the lastest Monaro.

1:30.1

Not bad at all. It is still very hard to drive on the inexperience hand.

MonaroCountry.

How can you explain why a car that has markedly less KW and Torque goes around a track much faster than the Holden Monaro?

The biggest difference is that the Holden is a family car with a massive engine and the RX8 is a Sports car.

Why do people refer to Steroidal family sedans as "Muscle Cars"?
Its just thatHolden seems set on producing cars that look and handle the same but just go faster.
I have a fantastic Idea for the next generation of Holden Performance cars,we buy a whole heap of decomissioned buses and put a jet engine on them.We shall call it the "Muscle Bus".All the thrills of a jet fighter none of the agile cornering of its bus DNA.

How can you explain why a car that has markedly less KW and Torque goes around a track much faster than the Holden Monaro?

Actually the last Top Gear test of the Monaro (The 6.0L one, the same we get in the US) put it around the track in 1:30.1 -- as fast as the STi, and faster than a 911 Turbo, an S4, an M3, and yes, even an RX-8.

Why do people refer to Steroidal family sedans as "Muscle Cars"?

Because, by definition, that's exactly what a "Muscle Car" is -- an up-engined version of a Family Sedan/Coupe (usually coupe). Which is a distinction between it and a Sports Car, which is primarily not based on a standard family sedan -- although the STi and EVO have blown that idea out of the water lately.

Sigma.
My assumption was that we were talking about the Holden Monaro as that is the Monaro that we have in Australia.Which went around the track a lot slower.
If the definition of a Muscle car is fast family sedan , then why isnt an M3 commonly called a Muscle car?
I'd say its because of its refinement.
So is it safe to say that muscle cars are generally unrefined "bang for your buck" vehicles?
I say it is.
Dont get me wrong, I actually drove one for a year or two.
In general I fail to see what glory you can get by simply upping the power at the expense of drivability.
I believe that the best cars are designed from the ground up for their purpose.
And this is exactly why I dont really have respect for the Holden/Vauxhall Monaro.

My assumption was that we were talking about the Holden Monaro as that is the Monaro that we have in Australia.Which went around the track a lot slower.

You have a Monaro that's a 6.0L Version too, don't you? Still called the Monaro? Vauxhall does (the one they tested), so I assume Holden does as well.

If the definition of a Muscle car is fast family sedan , then why isnt an M3 commonly called a Muscle car?
I'd say its because of its refinement.

I'd agree with that. People also just hesitate to call much outside of the US a "muscle car". Australia gets a free pass because it's the last haven of great V8 power; from the perspective over here in the US anyhow. We got a Monaro, but we'd kill for a Coupe 4 version or, even better, a Ford Falcon :drool:

In general I fail to see what glory you can get by simply upping the power at the expense of drivability.
I believe that the best cars are designed from the ground up for their purpose.


True, but that's the distinction between a Muscle and a Sports car.

Perhaps you're being a bit too harsh on the Monaro, I don't know. I drove a GTO and it was surprisingly nimble given what it is and it's weight. Compared to other "muscle car" competition in the US, i.e. the Mustang and now the Charger, the thing is like comparing an RX-8 to a Honda Civic. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "refined" though.

On Top Gear the Monaro beat out a freakin' Jaguar and it was considered by all 3 of their testers to be amazingly fun to drive. Clarkson repeatedly used the same phrases while driving the Monaro as he did while driving the RX-8 (another car he also loved). And he said anyone who bought a car in it's price range that didn't buy the Monaro was either "incredibly boring or mad". Not claiming their word to be gospel or anything, but they are driving-experience-nazis if ever there was such a thing. One of its' major pluses is that all that out-dated (called "yester-tech" in a recent mag here) technology keeps computers out of your driving. And that's a big reason why the Top Gear guys probably liked it actually since they hate the likes of TCS, DSC, Torque Management, etc.

HSV will never be an AMG or an M...Let alone an rx8!

HANDS DOWN...

AMEN!!! :D:D

Welcome to rx8club.com ! MU HA HA HA HA

G'day MC - nice to see someone using some logic to defend their weapon of choice. :) My comments as follows:

The base holden coupe is the Monaro CV8, the GTO simply has more power and better suspension tuning etc (not quite HSV but damn close). HSV offers the clubbie then GTO then GTS, HSV also has a 4WD coupe 4 (priced a little bit higher than the GTO) that would kill any RX8 and most jap cars. After this would be the race ready GTS-R with many supercar type bits stuffed inside.

Let's get real here and compare apples with apples. Most people start with a budget when car shopping (otherwise we'd all be driving AMs, Fazzas, etc). List price for Coupe 4 is a snip at $90,000 (wow, only $35K more than the RX8 :rolleyes: ) and even the GTO is still $25K more expensive.

So you can either buy a genuine 4 seater, designed from the ground up sports car (with all the cohesion and balance that implies), or you can spend significantly more to buy a compromised (albeit competent) large 2 door coupe which is heavier, has a crap transmission and is relatively crude in its styling (I appreciate the last point is subjective). Is that really worth bragging rights for TLGPs or the time some journo pulled on a racetrack?? To me its no contest - maybe explains HSV's catchphrase (i.e. don't ask me to rationalise it, I just want one).

I also query the resale of these things. Remember how happy HSV owners were when each new edition of the V8 was released (e.g. LS1, LS2, etc). Fact is, when your purchasing decision is ruled by basic numbers like kws and 0-100 times, your pride and joy becomes a bit redundant when the power war escalates every year or so. However, my 8 will be just as quick around corners. ;)

If you want faster Holden/Elfin also sells a very limited number of supercars like the streamliner and the clubman. Both are track ready (can be driven on normal roads) and sports a detuned LS1 (245kw). Dont let this fool you though, both achieves a 0-60 (0-100kph) time of 3.2sec.

No doubt these things are serious weapons and who wouldn't like such a toy parked in their garage for Sunday blats and track day thrills. But really, that's all they are. Unless you're a masochist they're simply not a daily driver. I'd suggest very few people shopping for a car would be tossing up between an RX8 and an Elfin, simply because they are catering for different motoring needs/desires.

Holden is not a typical GM, this especially applies to HSV products (with its own race ready after market products). FYI HSV is like AMG of merc or M of BMW.

I'm sorry, but as someone else posted, this is just laughable.

Stories of Holden and HSV quality problems are legion. They are building volume to a price and it shows. No doubt that every now and then the japanese build a lemon but I'd take the average odds of japanese quality over any Holden or HSV product any day of the week.

As for comparing HSV to the AMG and M outfits, I'd suggest that although all three are in the business of modifying production cars, AMG and M begin with a significantly better base car and do a more thorough job.

Here it is
http://www.fast-autos.net/holden/coupe42.jpg
http://www.fast-autos.net/holden/coupe414.jpg

Umm, yeah - a 2 door Commodore with some bells and whistles. Seen it, don't like it.

I have yet seen a Holden or Ford V8 clipping the apex nicely under the hand of an ordinary track day driver. It is very trustrating behind one of those thing, you don't want to outbreak them (coz it is against track day rules), but they are heavy enough to muscle you to the kitty litter or to the wall if there is a contact :eek:

I'd agree with that. People also just hesitate to call much outside of the US a "muscle car". Australia gets a free pass because it's the last haven of great V8 power; from the perspective over here in the US anyhow. We got a Monaro, but we'd kill for a Coupe 4 version or, even better, a Ford Falcon :drool:

Oh dear...I was with you for a while...and then you said that :eek:

There's so much more that's better in the world...although I do like the snarl of an angry V8 ;)

Fact is, when your purchasing decision is ruled by basic numbers like kws and 0-100 times, your pride and joy becomes a bit redundant when the power war escalates every year or so. However, my 8 will be just as quick around corners. ;)



Sheeez, my MX5 is just as quick, if not quicker around corners, and will most certainly brake later on a track.

Power isn't everything, just look at the elise.

Oh dear...I was with you for a while...and then you said that :eek:

There's so much more that's better in the world...although I do like the snarl of an angry V8 ;)

Heh. I'm not saying there's nothing better. But you Aussies love the crap outta your V8s. And European V8s just aren't the same. They don't have that same feeling or sound, ya know?

What HSV and FPV do there is way better what we get here even from the likes of SVT. Yeah, okay, the platforms aren't great, but the concept is good; just need a little better execution and, literally, those two groups could be putting out some extremely nice touring V8s for a moderate pricetag.

Here in the US the Monaro was in high-demand. Until we got it. Now most people would rather you take the GTO back (personally I rather like it). And people still pine for the FPV version of the Falcon but it can't be converted to LHD.

I guess you always want what you don't have.

I guess you always want what you don't have.

I second that!

Coz I want an Aston Martin DB9 for my birthday ;)

I second that!

Coz I want an Aston Martin DB9 for my birthday ;)


Ohh..... :o :o :o

Sorry Taka, Mia was asking me the other day what to get you for your birthday and I told her I thought you wanted a Ferrari F430. I think she rushed right out to organise it!

Sorry I think I have gone and spoilt your hole birthday. I hope you can learn to live with the Ferrari instead. :( :( :( :eek: :D

Ohh..... :o :o :o

Sorry Taka, Mia was asking me the other day what to get you for your birthday and I told her I thought you wanted a Ferrari F430. I think she rushed right out to organise it!

Sorry I think I have gone and spoilt your hole birthday. I hope you can learn to live with the Ferrari instead. :( :( :( :eek: :D
Oh Damn :o

I placed an order for an Aston Martin watch.

Now I have to go to the shop in Elizabeth Street to get the CHEAP Ferrari gear :p

Okay, lets stop all this off topic talk about Ferrari's. This is Monaro country......where on a quiet day, you can hear the Coupe 4's rusting ;) .

Why Elizabeth street?

I'll ship you a Fazza watch I can buy from Fairfield Markets for 1/10000th of the price.

I personally think the US market have bad taste coming up with the idea that the

Monaro is god-like. Look at the Viper, years go by and its still hailed and praised...

FOR WHAT?? :S

A European V8 is classic the fact that it uses high tech gear to make it lighter, more free revving etc...

Compare the M5 to the Viper, different cars, where Viper is more the sports appealing,

but honestly, I'm sure to the bones that it's no match for the sports SALOON.

Believe it or not I still think the LS series engine as being one of the best. Its light, economical, easy to biuld/modify and reliable.

Take for example my 300zx, engine has alot of electronic gizzmos (for its day) but I find it unreliable, thirsty, huge (when its only producing 300hp in stock form) and a pain to work on.

Which one do I prefer? the LS1....................


Some here might not respect the engine/c, some see it as old tech but out of all the different cars ive driven (and engines tried) over the years, the Holdens have been the best. Reliable, comfortable, powerful, roomy, and when something goes wrong parts are cheap and mechanics plentyful (unlike the zed).

How can you explain why a car that has markedly less KW and Torque goes around a track much faster than the Holden Monaro?

The biggest difference is that the Holden is a family car with a massive engine and the RX8 is a Sports car.
Weight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you explain why a smaller engine displacement with less power/torque and carrying a car with less weight consuming the same (if not more) amount of petrol than a powerful V8?

Weight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you explain why a smaller engine displacement with less power/torque and carrying a car with less weight consuming the same (if not more) amount of petrol than a powerful V8?

RPM!!! ;) :D :D

Look, I love the sound and low down torque of a well sorted V8. My brother owned an XA GT years ago with a mildly worked 351 Cleveland in it and that thing was great fun.

However, I reckon you're just looking at completely different markets and tastes when comparing the Monaro and the RX8. One appeals to the muscle car set who want raw grunt and aggressive looks whilst I suspect most 8 owners value the car's precision and balance over straight line speed. Tech heads also love the engineering behind the 8.

Great debate though and thanks again MC for your good natured and spirited approach. :)

then why isnt an M3 commonly called a Muscle car?
I'd say its because of its refinement.
So is it safe to say that muscle cars are generally unrefined "bang for your buck" vehicles?

Muscle cars are regarded as bang for your buck. Also they have to have a big displacement V8

In general I fail to see what glory you can get by simply upping the power at the expense of drivability. Steering feels different compared to smaller cars, however handling is still there. Australian cars have to stand up to australian conditions and bumpy roads. In saying that taking a stock monaro around a track all day isnt if forte, its like taking an RX around the outback (or some suburbs/townships) with undeveloped roads.

However the monaro IS better than the RX in many conditions, thats what makes it such as great car.

I believe that the best cars are designed from the ground up for their purpose.
And this is exactly why I dont really have respect for the Holden/Vauxhall Monaro.
I disagree with you. Good cars are designed for one purpose, great cars are designed for multiple purposes.

Great debate though and thanks again MC for your good natured and spirited approach.
No thank you for letting me exercise the good old aussie tradition of bludging..............next up smoko.

In a full days work im doing 7 hrs of surfing/relaxing and 1 hour of actual work.

:):):)

There is that much debate if we only allow to have one car...

Come on, get to work and you can have both Monaro and the RX-8 ;).

LOL

It is nice to compare cars.... but I will end up wanting all of them :o

HSV will never be an AMG or an M...Let alone an rx8!

HANDS DOWN...

Both AMG and M are expensive as hell, starting price is in the region of 200K here in australia.

Thats a whole lot of $$$$ for not much car.

I also query the resale of these things. Remember how happy HSV owners were when each new edition of the V8 was released (e.g. LS1, LS2, etc). Fact is, when your purchasing decision is ruled by basic numbers like kws and 0-100 times, your pride and joy becomes a bit redundant when the power war escalates every year or so. However, my 8 will be just as quick around corners.

The monaro has one of the highest resale values in the market. As for engine/and other upgrades, thats a fact of life, it happens to every vehicle. Imagine R32 owners when the R33 and 34 came out. They might still be happy but i can assure you that manu previous gen owners would rather own the newest and the best.

No doubt these things are serious weapons and who wouldn't like such a toy parked in their garage for Sunday blats and track day thrills. But really, that's all they are. Unless you're a masochist they're simply not a daily driver. I'd suggest very few people shopping for a car would be tossing up between an RX8 and an Elfin, simply because they are catering for different motoring needs/desires.

The same can be said about the 8 (not from me:)). The monaro caters for a wider range of need than the 8, the same as the 8 catering for a wider rane when compared to the elfin products.

Stories of Holden and HSV quality problems are legion. They are building volume to a price and it shows. No doubt that every now and then the japanese build a lemon but I'd take the average odds of japanese quality over any Holden or HSV product any day of the week.Check out the numbers produced, especially from HSV. Compared to other manufacturers (yes even those wearing euro badges) I wouldnt call them a volume builder. For example for next year Holden will only be producing less than 2,000 monaros and around 12,000 GTO's. How many BMW M3 and M5 will be produed?

Umm, yeah - a 2 door Commodore with some bells and whistles. Seen it, don't like it.

Ummm right :confused: :confused:

The monaro has one of the highest resale values in the market. As for engine/and other upgrades, thats a fact of life, it happens to every vehicle. Imagine R32 owners when the R33 and 34 came out. They might still be happy but i can assure you that manu previous gen owners would rather own the newest and the best.
If the Skyline is allow to go on.. I am sure they will get higher and higher numbers.

I think the Holden's has run out of letters for their VIN number coz they revise it so much. They can afford that, coz their profit margin is so much on each car (cheaper labour, cheaper parts, and cheaper design) and people are queuing up to buy them.

It is only up to "E" for the rotary after 30 years.... and there is no news for the "F" :o

There is that much debate if we only allow to have one car...

Come on, get to work and you can have both Monaro and the RX-8 .

LOL

It is nice to compare cars.... but I will end up wanting all of them

Good idea, im off to lunch now.

Muscle cars are regarded as bang for your buck. Also they have to have a big displacement V8

Sorry, but I'll take an M3 straight 6 over a big dumb pushrod V8 any day! ;) :D

Steering feels different compared to smaller cars, however handling is still there. Australian cars have to stand up to australian conditions and bumpy roads. In saying that taking a stock monaro around a track all day isnt if forte, its like taking an RX around the outback (or some suburbs/townships) with undeveloped roads.

However the monaro IS better than the RX in many conditions, thats what makes it such as great car.

I've found the ride in the RX8 very forgiving for such a great handling package. Nothing's fallen off it yet either, despite thumping it over some pretty awful roads on occasion. I also query your claim that the Monaro is better than the RX8 in many conditions. While there are some foreign cars that are out of their depth on Aussie roads the RX8 isn't one of them. Don't swallow too much of the marketing drivel that only Aussie-made cars can handle Aussie conditions.


I disagree with you. Good cars are designed for one purpose, great cars are designed for multiple purposes.

It's the very versatility of the RX8 that creams the Monaro. It handles better, looks better and goes nearly as hard as the standard Monaro yet still seats 4 in comfort and can be taken from the track to peak hour to the country without any problems whatsoever. So I agree with your essential point but count it as a point more in favour of the RX8 than the Monaro.

Both AMG and M are expensive as hell, starting price is in the region of 200K here in australia.

Thats a whole lot of $$$$ for not much car.

Then why were you comparing the Coupe 4 and HSV GTO to the RX8 - both are significantly more expensive.

You seemed to like comparing HSV to AMG and M previously yet not when the flaws in your argument are pointed out.

The same can be said about the 8 (not from me:)). The monaro caters for a wider range of need than the 8, the same as the 8 catering for a wider rane when compared to the elfin products.

Umm, what can the Monaro do that the 8 can't??? :confused: Back it up with some examples if you want this argument to wash.

As for suggesting that the RX8 is not a daily driver - bullshit. There are many daily driven and I find the car very easy to live with.

Ummm right :confused: :confused:

Confusing to a dyed in the wool fan of the Monaro I know but not all of us think it is a good looking car.

Umm, what can the Monaro do that the 8 can't??? :confused: Back it up with some examples if you want this argument to wash.

As for suggesting that the RX8 is not a daily driver - bullshit. There are many daily driven and I find the car very easy to live with.
Monaro cannot take a bicycle in the boot right?

I think then the Integra is a more versatile car. It is a hatch back and can take my bike when the rear seat is folded down :o

If you looking for an all purpose road car, buy a STi or an EVO with a roofrack.

Monaro cannot take a bicycle in the boot right?

I think then the Integra is a more versatile car. It is a hatch back and can take my bike when the rear seat is folded down :o

If you looking for an all purpose road car, buy a STi or an EVO with a roofrack.

In fact, since they moved the fuel tank to make the yanks happy the Monaro has about the same carrying capacity as the RX8. Granted the boot opening is bigger, which makes getting stuff in easier.

Obviously, if carrying capacity is as much a priority as performance, it would be hard to go past an RS4 Wagon :cool: (assuming the budget stretched that far ;) ) or in the realms of affordabilty the WRX wagon is great bang for your buck.

MC just broke Guiness Book records with 10 posts in page 5 of this thread :O

Nup! If carrying capacity is a priority, and you get off on torque ;) then nothing beats the V10 diesel Tourag :rolleyes:

Nup! If carrying capacity is a priority, and you get off on torque ;) then nothing beats the V10 diesel Tourag :rolleyes:

Well if we're gonna get all silly about it and include shockingly ugly 4WD brick-like thingies, make mine a Porsche Cayenne Turbo thanks!! ;) :D :D :D

BTW, should have mentioned I'll take an RS6 if there's no RS4s to be had! ;) :D

MC just broke Guiness Book records with 10 posts in page 5 of this thread :O


and after reading page 5 I had thought i accidently joined the monaro forum....eek!

give me the refinement of the 8 anyday

[QUOTE=monaroCountry]Both AMG and M are expensive as hell, starting price is in the region of 200K here in australia.

[QUOTE]


give or take $40k (or a monaro)...pocket change

Muscle cars are regarded as bang for your buck. Also they have to have a big displacement V8




err....then expalin why the 200sx and WRX/STI have high regard in bang for buck categories.

Umm, what can the Monaro do that the 8 can't???
Tow a boat :):)...........

Tow a boat :):)...........


the yacht's too big though

Tow a boat :):)...........
Oh crikey...and in the same breath you're trying to tell me this POS is a sports car :p (j/k ;) )

Boat?

No worries matey.....A'hoy there, me 'ardies!!

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=53980

:eek: :eek: :eek: yours is bigger than his :eek: :eek: :eek:

Oh crikey...and in the same breath you're trying to tell me this POS is a sports car :p (j/k ;) )


Depends which version you get, add two doors and it's a commondore, then add a long tray and it's a crewman, put a long flat tray at the back of the monaro and it's a ute, stretch it a bit and its a statesman.

Hey it's a versatile car, custom made to be everything under the sun

...and then there's the 4WD thing...now I get it! ;)

...and then there's the 4WD thing...now I get it! ;)


just like a swiss army pocket knife ;)

I'd suggest Mez has delivered the final knockout punch to whatever flimsy arguments MC was still peddling. ;)

And anyway, the yacht I race on is not trailerable behind anything smaller than a large truck... :cool: :D :D

hehe - having enjoyed our little Monaro v RX8 spat all week, what do I read in my Sept issue of Wheels today but the editorial, which is all about Holden's decision to cease production of the Munro.

I was prompted to pen the following to the editor:

The only really astounding thing about the Monaro is that someone, somewhere in the modern Australian car industry actually had the balls to make a bold decision. Two-door versions of volume-production Australian sedans released in the 70s (e.g. Monaro, XA-XC Coupe, Charger) were cause for appreciation but hardly prompted the kind of euphoric pandemonium that erupted when Holden magnanimously announced that it would appease the mob and produce the modern Monaro. Goes to show how hidebound the local industry became in the 80s and 90s and consequently how excitement starved the average punter was. Of course, now everything is about niche marketing and we have more Commodore variants than the market knows what to do with (Adventra anyone?).

Monaro was never going to be a long-term domestic model though. Although baby boomer nostalgia ensured strong early sales (a la VW beetle), once all that just wanted one got one (apologies to HSV) the ongoing demand plainly wasn't there. If it was you can bet your life Holden would have found room for it somewhere. Fact is, in contrast with the 70s, the market is awash with quality performance coupes these days (together with other bang for your buck sedans like WRX) and one-eyed Holden fans aside, most buyers too young to have yearned for a Monaro in the 60s and 70s see it as simply a two-door Commodore with a hottish motor and (now) really gauche bonnet scoops. They then walk down the road and buy a 350Z or RX8 and discover that for similar money they also get a decent transmission and something that goes around corners much better.

Mercedes Benz proved that pandering to an ageing market (remember the whale S class) only leaves you with dead ex-customers. The fact that M-B is now madly trying to look hip and groovy might suggest to Holden that the car it really should have produced as a hero special is the more recent Torana concept (albeit called anything but).

Seeing as how Holden has paid big bucks to flog the last of the Monaros on the sought after opening pages of the mag, whats the bet my little dig doesn't get published. :rolleyes: :D

Did this lawyer said he was very busy at work?

BTW "letter of the month"

send it!

Did this lawyer said he was very busy at work?

BTW "letter of the month"

Taka, the advantage of stringing words together for a living is that I tend to do it much quicker than the average bear. :p :D

And yes I am busy, so stop bothering me! ;) :D :D

send it!

Done - but they won't print it. Noticed after I sent it that they've published 3 letters on the Monaro's demise and received heaps more so I've probably missed the boat. :rolleyes: Never mind - at least this particular audience gets the point! :)

Taka, the advantage of stringing words together for a living is that I tend to do it much quicker than the average bear. :p :D

And yes I am busy, so stop bothering me! ;) :D :D
I wish my dictaphone can type for me in this forum :rolleyes:

Nicely balanced letter there Revolver.
At least at first glance it seems nicely balanced. :-D

Holden owners will read it and not quite be able to put their finger on why they are pissed off.

hehe, thanks Mike. :)

However, I think even Monaro owners will understand I'm having a shot at them. ;) :D :D

MC is in the small minority of intelligent people to have bought a Monaro (even if he is hopelessly misguided in his views). ;) :D :D :D

Oh crikey...and in the same breath you're trying to tell me this POS is a sports car (j/k )

Never said it was a sportscar...........................if you want a sportscar get a ferrari or porsche, even a clubman. Not a GTO or an RX8!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. The GTO fulfills its purpose quite nicely, its a great grand tourer.

Yep...just like a Calais ;)

Never said it was a sportscar...........................if you want a sportscar get a ferrari or porsche, even a clubman. Not a GTO or an RX8!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. The GTO fulfills its purpose quite nicely, its a great grand tourer.

Mate, now you're confusing a sports car for a performance car....there is a difference!

I've even had my MX5 lapping some porsches at mallala...sports does not always equal performance, and vice versa!

Somebody once told me that Harley Davidsons make good touring bikes.

Hmm, aren't they also bought by middle-aged blokes in need of a "pep up" and young blokes who want to manufacture some "toughness"?? ;) :D :D

Yep, I think we've nailed the demographic. :D

And if the RX8 isn't a true sportscar (however you might define it), it's a helluva lot closer to being one than a Monaro will ever be. For a start there's a 350kg plus difference in kerb weight for the porky Holden to contend with..

Have fun 'grand touring'. :p :D

Somebody once told me that Harley Davidsons make good touring bikes.

Hmm, aren't they also bought by middle-aged blokes in need of a "pep up" and young blokes who want to manufacture some "toughness"?? ;) :D :D

Yep, I think we've nailed the demographic. :D

And if the RX8 isn't a true sportscar (however you might define it), it's a helluva lot closer to being one than a Monaro will ever be. For a start there's a 350kg plus difference in kerb weight for the porky Holden to contend with..

Have fun 'grand touring'. :p :D


LOL- for real!

I want to dips me lid to MC...he's come in here defending the General, knowing there not a friend to be seen. We've provoked him, flamed him and been downright rude to him...and he's kept an even keel...and kept coming back. Sorta bloke you'd buy a beer if you met him :)

Now Revolver, way back you made some comment about Porsche and its Cayenne. To me, that's the day Porsche bastardised its gene pool (although some will argue that was with the 924)

The day Ferrari launches a slab-sided, lard-arsed SUV I'm gonna join a monastery :D

I want to dips me lid to MC...he's come in here defending the General, knowing there not a friend to be seen. We've provoked him, flamed him and been downright rude to him...and he's kept an even keel...and kept coming back. Sorta bloke you'd buy a beer if you met him :)

I 2nd that. In fact, I have repeatedly complimented him on his attitude (and intelligence). The fact that I then took a bat to his remarks is neither here nor there. ;) :D Nothing more than robust debate amongst adults and I never queried his parentage or personal habits. I'd still love to have a beer with him for being such a good sport. :) In fact, if he turns up to the Nats to spectate, I'll buy. :D

Now Revolver, way back you made some comment about Porsche and its Cayenne. To me, that's the day Porsche bastardised its gene pool (although some will argue that was with the 924)

The day Ferrari launches a slab-sided, lard-arsed SUV I'm gonna join a monastery :D

Now Timbo, I thought I also made it clear that I hated these blobby over-powered 4WDs. My point was, if we have to have one, may as well have the fastest one 'cause none of 'em are pretty!!

Otherwise I agree that the Cayenne represents a sell out to grossly fat Americans who need an SUV because they can no longer fit into cars that normal people buy.

As for Ferrari - only a matter of time my friend. All the Germans are building poxy trucks now (e.g. MB, BMW, VW & Audi) so it is only a matter of time before the Italians decide they 'have' to follow suit to keep up. Our only saving grace might be if the oil price starts to put a dint in demand for large 4WDs (already happening here).

And I'm doing my best to forget the 924. In fact, I blasted past one this morning and just felt sorry for the nerd.

A good car is only a tool. It is really depends how you use it.

Ahhhh hemm.... (http://www.step-hen.com/rx8/protected%20clips/Monaro.avi)

hehehe, the blue gloves crack me up every time! :D :D

I can give you a blue finger :mad: j/k :p

hehehe, the blue gloves crack me up every time! :D :D


Taka our fashion conscious member likes to be colour co-ordinated :p

I can give you a blue finger :mad: j/k :p

Why, is your ass cold?? ;) :D :D

No I am thirsty and thinking of 2 beers but I decided on one! :p

Test @ 1831

Test @ 1831

Que??? :confused: :confused:

He is testing his post count to see if it is going up... you know MikeB has lost 2,000 posts and no one knows why....

it is totally off topic...

Back to my video... I think there is lack of respect for some of the other RX-8 from a Monaro driver. Stu could not get pass on although he is right on their ass. In the straight the car is just too powerful.

I would really love to drive one of these on the track.

I think there is lack of respect for some of the other RX-8 from a Monaro driver. Stu could not get pass on although he is right on their ass. In the straight the car is just too powerful.

Yeah very annoying. The Monaro would pull away on the straight so as I could not pass, but then out of the next corner I am on his arse being slowed down by him until either the main straight or the back straight again where he would again pull away a little instead of just laying off the gas a little until I go past.

I think it just comes down to the drivers attitude in not wanting to be passed by what he figures is a slower car. :rolleyes:

Yeah very annoying. The Monaro would pull away on the straight so as I could not pass, but then out of the next corner I am on his arse being slowed down by him until either the main straight or the back straight again where he would again pull away a little instead of just laying off the gas a little until I go past.

I think it just comes down to the drivers attitude in not wanting to be passed by what he figures is a slower car. :rolleyes:


When i used to get involved in sprints as part of the open briefing to all drivers were the comments that a car that has better brakes and corners better will post faster lap times than a car with grunt, so let them go past instead of hindering their track times.

Yeah very annoying. The Monaro would pull away on the straight so as I could not pass, but then out of the next corner I am on his arse being slowed down by him until either the main straight or the back straight again where he would again pull away a little instead of just laying off the gas a little until I go past.

I think it just comes down to the drivers attitude in not wanting to be passed by what he figures is a slower car. :rolleyes:

it's a major pain on track days. the rules and safety dictate you can only pass on straights and so you can't use the 8's brakes and cornering to it's full advantage. your slowed down through out the infield and on the straight you don't have the power to pass.