(besides me ) :D
just wanna discuss porting techniques, port timing and stuff like that.

I'm just curious what you have done to yours?
Judge Ito won't reveal his mods, so maybe you will?

i want to get mines ported but cant find a shop that has experience doing so.i called ito shop but hes to busy.

What kind of discussion do you want? I've played with the Renesis housings. I know what they look like and what you can do to them.

what you can do to them.

Care to share this with us RG?
Or direct me to the correct area of the forum if you have already posted this.

i'm not an expert on renesis engines by any means, but i'll share what i did. feel free to critique, but try to be positive.

the intake is great to begin with, so not much there. just beveled the edges and brought up the inner edge to look a little more similar to the 4 port config. and for the rest, just the usual stuff, deburred the runners and on the secondary ports, there was a lot to be removed from the outside edge leading into the port runner. not very drastic though--i think the power is gonna come from the exhaust.

and for the exhaust...
i advanced the port opening a bit, but again, nothing drastic. the exiting gas has to make basically 2 90 degree turns to exit the engine. not really good for flow--which may be part of the contributing factor to exhaust systems not adding a whole lot of power (according to racing beat, anyway). i believe the restriction is in the port itself.

so i gave it a big radiused edge, and angled the boundry layer instead of having it come straight down, then make a 90 degree turn. it now starts at about 70 or so degrees, and makes a nice, gentle roll towards the sleeve. (this is all from the top view perspective)

and in everything, i was keeping the "line of sight" in mind. if you can see the combustion chamber from the outside port exit, it's good. the less turns, the better.

so that's what i did in a nutshell. i'd appreciate any constructive critisism if anyone has any so i can do an even better job next time. if anyone else has done it and is willing to share, i'd like to hear about it.

guitarjunkie, how does she compare ported vs stock?

i'm not an expert on renesis engines by any means, but i'll share what i did. feel free to critique, but try to be positive.

the intake is great to begin with, so not much there. just beveled the edges and brought up the inner edge to look a little more similar to the 4 port config. and for the rest, just the usual stuff, deburred the runners and on the secondary ports, there was a lot to be removed from the outside edge leading into the port runner. not very drastic though--i think the power is gonna come from the exhaust.

and for the exhaust...
i advanced the port opening a bit, but again, nothing drastic. the exiting gas has to make basically 2 90 degree turns to exit the engine. not really good for flow--which may be part of the contributing factor to exhaust systems not adding a whole lot of power (according to racing beat, anyway). i believe the restriction is in the port itself.

so i gave it a big radiused edge, and angled the boundry layer instead of having it come straight down, then make a 90 degree turn. it now starts at about 70 or so degrees, and makes a nice, gentle roll towards the sleeve. (this is all from the top view perspective)

and in everything, i was keeping the "line of sight" in mind. if you can see the combustion chamber from the outside port exit, it's good. the less turns, the better.

so that's what i did in a nutshell. i'd appreciate any constructive critisism if anyone has any so i can do an even better job next time. if anyone else has done it and is willing to share, i'd like to hear about it.
The exhaust sounds a lot like what is needed. If it were possible to get some custom exhaust headers, i'd say remove the sleeves all together. Did you take any pics?

I'd love to see a dyno too.

haven't taken pics because i gots no cam :(
if anyone is close to hesperia, i'd love to get some taken--i'll buy lunch.

and as for how it runs... i don't know, and i won't ever find out. this engine is going to get turbo'd when it goes back together next week. i really want to find out though. i bet it would make quite a bit more power throughout the rpm range.

one thing i forgot to mention before is the water jacket! it is extremely close to the port wall. being the redneck i am, i hogged right through it and took it to a shop and had them weld it back up, then i cleaned the port up again. fairly simple, but worth mentioning that there is not very much you can do to the exhaust port without going through the wall.

Sounds great...... keep us updated.

will do :)

did you do the porting yourself?

sounds good and can't wait to see some pics and #'s with the turbo on it.

I'd love to hear more about porting the renesis. I wish more people would do it so that I could get a feel for what it would do power wise, go port your engines!! :D
I'd really like to see comparitive dynos with and without porting and maybe some timeslips. I know Ito should hopefully have some of that soon, but a larger sample space is always better for measuring averages. Thanks to anyone with more info, and to guitar for his writeup.

if the sleeve in the intermediate iron was removed, it'd free up heaploads of space in the port. anyone know if the motor would care if the exit wasn't divided? would it maybe be a good idea to remove all the sleeves? or would that be detrimental to anything?

this will have a custom turbo manifold made.

Where are you getting the turbo done?

if the sleeve in the intermediate iron was removed, it'd free up heaploads of space in the port. anyone know if the motor would care if the exit wasn't divided? would it maybe be a good idea to remove all the sleeves? or would that be detrimental to anything?

this will have a custom turbo manifold made.
Not to hijack your thread or anything, but there are a great deal of us looking at FI. There is just one thing stopping us, engine management. What are you going to use for your custom turbo setup?

we're still looking into what to use for fi.
i used to be a big haltech fan..until the "x" series came out. that pretty much ruined it for them.

the aux ports may or may not go back in. we might test it both ways and see what's up. in any case, they're going to be a bitch-as they're electronically controlled, instead of pressure actuated like on the 2nd gen rx7's. my prediction is they'll probably end up being omitted and we'll just deal with the low end, but don't quote me on that yet.

in the end, we may leave the stock computer in there, and use either a piggy back, or a combination of that, aic, and ignition timing control. it's still up in the air right now.

we're still looking into what to use for fi.
i used to be a big haltech fan..until the "x" series came out. that pretty much ruined it for them.

the aux ports may or may not go back in. we might test it both ways and see what's up. in any case, they're going to be a bitch-as they're electronically controlled, instead of pressure actuated like on the 2nd gen rx7's. my prediction is they'll probably end up being omitted and we'll just deal with the low end, but don't quote me on that yet.

in the end, we may leave the stock computer in there, and use either a piggy back, or a combination of that, aic, and ignition timing control. it's still up in the air right now.
Interesting, I'm sure a lot of people here would love to see your results. Keep us updated, thanks.

yup yup.

I don't see alot of potential for the intake ports. I'm not going into bridgeports since we really don't know how the engine responds with less drastic forms of porting yet. No need to jump the gun.

On the intake ports, I would mainly focus on the short turn radius where the port runners turn into the ports entering the engine. It sounds like you have done this. I'd also add a minor bevel or radius to the closing side of the ports. Nothing serious that would necessarily enlarge them. Just take the sharp edge off of things for seal longevity. I would probably enlarge the primary ports a little. They really can't open any earlier but they can close a little later. I wouldn't even enlarge the auxillary ports to make them close later either. You can get too late. Try to convince the RX-7 guys that. Basically it's extend the closing time of the primary ports a little and work on the short turn radius of the runners.

The exhaust side needs more help than anything. If you hit the water jacket, you went much more crazy than I would. The ports can be opened quite a bit earlier but I wouldn't go down any farther than the bottom of the exhaust runner. Those who have never seen a Renesis taken apart may be a little confused by this. There should be no issues at all in regards to hitting the water jacket. The short turn radius of the exhaust ports is absolutely horrid. It is very sharp 90 degree bends. The sleeves need alot of grinding down to take care of this issue. It sounds like you got that taken care of if you can see inside the engine through the exhaust runners. I would not just remove the exhaust sleeves. You probably won't get as much from this as you think you will but you will succeed in getting more exhaust runner area. This isn't necessarily a good thing since the ports shouldn't be able to outflow them anyways. What you will do is to slow the exhaust gasses down and hurt low end performance more than just leaving them alone. Machining a new center sleeve may prove worthwhile. I'd personally like to see each exhaust port have it's own runner and then use more of a conventional header. The exhaust ports in the engine are so restrictive stock and kill the velocity through the short turn radius to the point that any benefit you get after this point is irrelevant. Combine this with siamesed center ports and no port overlap, and you have an exhaust that can't help you at all. I believe with porting and seperation of the center runners that this can be changed.

I wouldn't worry so much about Haltech. If you like their older stuff then by all means use an older ecu. You will need to use a conventional style throttlebody though. Only the Motec systems that I am aware of have the ability to control drive by wire. I think you should leave the S-DAIS system active. With the exception of the auxillary ports, the rest are all vacuum or rather pressure actuated. This would be very easy to set up using positive pressure air from the turbo and rpm activated vacuum switches. It is simple. The electric auxillary ports could work based off an rpm switch as well. Keep all of the off boost drivability. Leave it all working. It isn't hard to do. You are going through so much trouble. Don't skimp here. Also I wouldn't use the stock ecu with a piggyback unless you absolutely have to. Always use a standalone if you can. The stock ecu still makes tuning a bitch. change over to a more conventional fuel system as well.

If you are going to all of the effort of porting it and fabbing up forced induction, finish the job with a better fuel system and ecu as well. If you don't, you'll probably end up doing it all again later.

I don't see alot of potential for the intake ports. I'm not going into bridgeports since we really don't know how the engine responds with less drastic forms of porting yet. No need to jump the gun.

On the intake ports, I would mainly focus on the short turn radius where the port runners turn into the ports entering the engine. It sounds like you have done this. I'd also add a minor bevel or radius to the closing side of the ports. Nothing serious that would necessarily enlarge them. Just take the sharp edge off of things for seal longevity. I would probably enlarge the primary ports a little. They really can't open any earlier but they can close a little later. I wouldn't even enlarge the auxillary ports to make them close later either. You can get too late. Try to convince the RX-7 guys that. Basically it's extend the closing time of the primary ports a little and work on the short turn radius of the runners.

The exhaust side needs more help than anything. If you hit the water jacket, you went much more crazy than I would. The ports can be opened quite a bit earlier but I wouldn't go down any farther than the bottom of the exhaust runner. Those who have never seen a Renesis taken apart may be a little confused by this. There should be no issues at all in regards to hitting the water jacket. The short turn radius of the exhaust ports is absolutely horrid. It is very sharp 90 degree bends. The sleeves need alot of grinding down to take care of this issue. It sounds like you got that taken care of if you can see inside the engine through the exhaust runners. I would not just remove the exhaust sleeves. You probably won't get as much from this as you think you will but you will succeed in getting more exhaust runner area. This isn't necessarily a good thing since the ports shouldn't be able to outflow them anyways. What you will do is to slow the exhaust gasses down and hurt low end performance more than just leaving them alone. Machining a new center sleeve may prove worthwhile. I'd personally like to see each exhaust port have it's own runner and then use more of a conventional header. The exhaust ports in the engine are so restrictive stock and kill the velocity through the short turn radius to the point that any benefit you get after this point is irrelevant. Combine this with siamesed center ports and no port overlap, and you have an exhaust that can't help you at all. I believe with porting and seperation of the center runners that this can be changed.

I wouldn't worry so much about Haltech. If you like their older stuff then by all means use an older ecu. You will need to use a conventional style throttlebody though. Only the Motec systems that I am aware of have the ability to control drive by wire. I think you should leave the S-DAIS system active. With the exception of the auxillary ports, the rest are all vacuum or rather pressure actuated. This would be very easy to set up using positive pressure air from the turbo and rpm activated vacuum switches. It is simple. The electric auxillary ports could work based off an rpm switch as well. Keep all of the off boost drivability. Leave it all working. It isn't hard to do. You are going through so much trouble. Don't skimp here. Also I wouldn't use the stock ecu with a piggyback unless you absolutely have to. Always use a standalone if you can. The stock ecu still makes tuning a bitch. change over to a more conventional fuel system as well.

If you are going to all of the effort of porting it and fabbing up forced induction, finish the job with a better fuel system and ecu as well. If you don't, you'll probably end up doing it all again later.

Great post Rotarygod. This may seem to be a strange question for this thread, but what do you do for a living? Are you a mechanic or something of the like? I don't mean to pry or whatever but you know so much about just about everything there is to know about motors. Why not open up a rotary shop?(unless you already have one?) Don't mean to hijack, I'm just trying to get RG to start porting our engines :D

I'm a real estate agent! I just work on my own and freind's rotaries alot. I also played around and studied the Renesis housings at Racing Beat during Sevenstock weekend. You learn alot just looking at them.

I'd love to open my own rotary shop up. This wouldn't be hard since I would just tack it on to a friend's auto performance shop. He's offered me the opportunity. The hard part is knowing that I'll have steady traffic and therefore income. Time is already at a premium. I'd really have to drastically reduce my job as a real estate agent and I don't think a rotary shop would pay as well. There is alot to think about. It would be better if I just trained my friend to work on them. He is almost exclusively just a track car person so regular performance minded ricer types just don't go there. He does have a 4 wheel dyno on the way though! It will be installed in the very near future. He's got 4 lifts, a tire changing and balancing machine and an alignment machine. It would be a nice setup. It would just require too much money up front and too much of my time. I'd rather get ahold of a car and develop bolt on pieces and just sell and install them through him. This is more realistic but even then I'd need a car to begin prototyping with. That still leaves me with the time to do it dilemna. Oh well. It would be fun but I don't think I'd want a career out of it. I would like to be an Axial flow supercharger retailer though.

thanks a lot for the input!!
a few things i'd like more clarification on though:
1) intake closing time. i can understand the adverse effect on a naturally aspirated engine, but i think it would help a turbocharged engine (once the turbo gets spoolin' anyway). in any reguard, i only extended them about 1mm of actual removal. the rest was just the bevel.

2) i'm unclear as to whether you're in favor of removing the sleeve from the intermediate housing. did you mean to remove it, and machine a new one that is fully divided? the runners are just tiny tiny...i'm wondering if it might help to just get rid of the center all together. (keep in mind it's only on this one turbocharged engine).

thanks again for the good advice. exactly the kind of constructive critisism i was hoping for. major props!!

Might want to contact Racing Beat. i know they have done a bit on porting the Renesis, maybe you could offer some valuable insight to each other. I know somebody asked Jim M. during the session if they had ported the Renesis, and he said they had, but only came up with about 4-8 hp, not much.

You have to consider that you can only get so much air into the engine with forced induction regardless of timing duration. Let's just say that you are running 10 psi of boost. Once the pressure in the engine reaches 10 psi while the port is still open, you aren't getting any more air into it. There's no point in holding the port open any longer. You want it to start compressing as early as possible for best power. With low port timing you may or may not ever get to this point since the engine may never reach 10 psi while the ports are open but the 6 port engine has an awful lot of time to fill up, especially when the inlets are smoother and flow better and faster. The auxillary ports already stay open until 80 degrees. How much later do you need them open? A mm probably won't matter much but you still can get too much timing, even on a turbo motor.

I favor a new divided exhaust sleeve. Unfortunately you can't get around fairly poor flow characteristics here but you can improve on them. The problem with removing the sleeve is that the hot exhaust gasses from one rotor will directly blast the other rotor. This will also send a strong pulse directly into the other chamber. You don't want this. The runner area for the exhaust may be tiny but take some measurements and determine the total area for each rotor. Now compare this to the total area for the older engines. Here's a hint, the old engine exhaust sleeves expanded greatly over a very short distance. The 2" pipes that everyone uses are much larger than the exhaust port area. They are actually only equivalent to a 1 5/8" pipe! I'll bet the Renesis has more area than that.

If you try a divided sleeve, also try a completely seperate true dual exhaust setup. One pipe and muffler per rotor. No collector. I'll bet the car has tons more low end. This setup works great on low overlap engines.

i'll try that if i get another one to do, but this one gets turbo'd :)
i really do appreciate the help.

is anyone else interested in having some porting done?
i can't afford to do it for free because carbide costs me money...not to mention i spent like 9 hours on this one. but i can do it basically for the cost of the materials i use and maybe a bit on top of it for labor...but mostly just to see what kind of power it will make.

only concern is i don't have any idea how much power it would make, so there is some risk involved. i'd really love to see before and after dyno sheets.

i'm very interested.

where are you located?

i just don't want to risk my engine being damaged :)

didnt ito get like 50 hp when he ported his? and jim from racing beat says they only got 4 to 8 something not right.

didnt ito get like 50 hp when he ported his? and jim from racing beat says they only got 4 to 8 something not right.

I don't think Ito will say what he did to his car exactly. I would find it very difficult to see that the renesis gets anywhere close to 50 hp from just porting out the engine. Unless you are pushing more air into the engine (FI) this engine is already pretty well tuned. If somebody got 50 hp from just porting, I would rocket my ship to the nearest Mazda specialist and work on this as we speak. I remember Jim M. mentioned specifically that there was not nearly the amount of gain from porting the Renesis that there was from the previous generation rotaries. Could very well have to do with the design of the engines, but also that the other cars were FI'ed and able to use the extra intake, etc.

Actually when I talked to Jim, he never claimed any internal port work as of yet. He was more concerned with getting bolt on products finalized and then later on moving in to that arena. The person that claimed they have ported it was just a little part time guys. His story was never even consistent. The numbers Jim was talking about were just the bolt on gains so far. He's only seen 4-5 hp with headers, 3-4 with an intake, and a few across the exhaust. He has stated that he didn't think there were many gains to be had from porting since they were done so good from the factory but then he went on to say that the exhaust ports in the engine are terrible. This is a contradiction. We won't know for sure until we see one ported and someone actually takes pictures and verifies it after it runs.

Ito claims he hit 240 rwhp on his just off of bridgeporting the auxillary ports. His dyno looked strange to me though. There was a several horsepower peak where it jumped up to that number but fell down above and below it. I don't mean that power just improved when the auxillary ports opened and then climbed up to redline. There was a small peak in that rise and that is the number he quoted. That is worthless info. His power peak also came at about 7000 rpm or so when it should have come at 8500. Something is wrong with that. His motor is peaking where the 13B's should peak rather than where the Renesis should peak. The stock ecu also can't compensate and he claims that it hasn't been touched. He's done good work on rotaries in the past but he doesn't ever tell you anything useful and his dyno claims are misleading. It is also very rare that you ever see any pictures of his ports. There's nothing secretive about enlargening a port. You can stare at a picture all day but it doesn't mean that you can copy it.

Judging from the several rotaries I've ported so far, I don't see it taking me 9 hours to port. You can actually enlarge each port in about 15 minutes. The long part comes in cleaning them up and getting them smooth. It would still probably take a good 4-5 hours though. Don't even get into the time it takes to cut a bridge. I've done them and they suck to do.

Actually when I talked to Jim, he never claimed any internal port work as of yet. He was more concerned with getting bolt on products finalized and then later on moving in to that arena. The person that claimed they have ported it was just a little part time guys. His story was never even consistent. The numbers Jim was talking about were just the bolt on gains so far. He's only seen 4-5 hp with headers, 3-4 with an intake, and a few across the exhaust. He has stated that he didn't think there were many gains to be had from porting since they were done so good from the factory but then he went on to say that the exhaust ports in the engine are terrible. This is a contradiction. We won't know for sure until we see one ported and someone actually takes pictures and verifies it after it runs.

Ito claims he hit 240 rwhp on his just off of bridgeporting the auxillary ports. His dyno looked strange to me though. There was a several horsepower peak where it jumped up to that number but fell down above and below it. I don't mean that power just improved when the auxillary ports opened and then climbed up to redline. There was a small peak in that rise and that is the number he quoted. That is worthless info. His power peak also came at about 7000 rpm or so when it should have come at 8500. Something is wrong with that. His motor is peaking where the 13B's should peak rather than where the Renesis should peak. The stock ecu also can't compensate and he claims that it hasn't been touched. He's done good work on rotaries in the past but he doesn't ever tell you anything useful and his dyno claims are misleading. It is also very rare that you ever see any pictures of his ports. There's nothing secretive about enlargening a port. You can stare at a picture all day but it doesn't mean that you can copy it.

Judging from the several rotaries I've ported so far, I don't see it taking me 9 hours to port. You can actually enlarge each port in about 15 minutes. The long part comes in cleaning them up and getting them smooth. It would still probably take a good 4-5 hours though. Don't even get into the time it takes to cut a bridge. I've done them and they suck to do.


Well the dynos don't lie. Maybe the truth has been stretched, but he did hit that number. I'd like to see pictures as well and some greater explanation, I love learning about this kind of stuff even though I'm pretty new to it. I hope Racing Beat has some success with porting the engine when they get to that point, they're a group I'd trust to screw around with my engine. Thanks again for all of this info RG.

Rotary god

If you are as good at selling real estate as your knowledge of rotaries , you should be retiring pretty soon :D .

Combining a rotary workshop with a realestate office would be :cool:

After spending 23 years in realestate 10 years in my own bussiness now i am finally taking it easy playing with my toys . ;)

cheers
michael

Well the dynos don't lie. Maybe the truth has been stretched, but he did hit that number. I'd like to see pictures as well and some greater explanation, I love learning about this kind of stuff even though I'm pretty new to it. I hope Racing Beat has some success with porting the engine when they get to that point, they're a group I'd trust to screw around with my engine. Thanks again for all of this info RG.
I understand that dyno's done lie. He has also just hit a very similar hp number with his daughters 6 port RX-7 engine. Maybe a dyno doesn't lie, but how do you know the dyno you are looking at is for the engine you think it is? Something to think about when believing dyno claims.

I understand that dyno's done lie. He has also just hit a very similar hp number with his daughters 6 port RX-7 engine. Maybe a dyno doesn't lie, but how do you know the dyno you are looking at is for the engine you think it is? Something to think about when believing dyno claims.
Yea I guess so. I'll take your word since you'd have more knowledge on this subject, but I'd still like to see some more info from it. Time will tell.

Dyno's don't lie, but they can be "tweaked". I'm not accusing any companies of doing so, just pointing out its possible.

1) Redyno the vehicle over and over again, until the perfect conditions are met.
2) Compare a just warmed up car, to a heat soaked one.
3) Turn the AC on for one run
4) Adjust the straps inbetween runs
5) Dyno the vehicle on different days, at different times, under different environmental conditions.

A few other ways, but they escape me right now.

as previously stated, there's not a whole lot to be had from the intake. the engine can suck plenty of air in. now getting it out is another story...

as previously stated, there's not a whole lot to be had from the intake. the engine can suck plenty of air in. now getting it out is another story...
Do you think that there is enough to do with the exhaust ports to open up 50+ whp?

rotarygod what do you think the chances of porting only the the exhaust exit with the engine still on the car.i would remove the the manifold and start to grind away??

You can't. The exhaust exit that you can see is not what needs attention. It is the physical port openings in the combustion chamber that need the help. There's nothing you can do from the outside.

thanks rotarygod.that sucks because i cant get anyone who has experience to port my engine all the shops i call have never done an rx8 ,i called ito shop but he is to busy :rolleyes:

if you want to take a small gamble, i'll port them.
i'll even do it for free--except the cost of the barbide burrs consumed ~$50.

all i want is before and after dyno charts.

it is a small gamble, but i do think it'll build more power throughout the rpm range. there's just no reason it shouldn't. i'm not sure what the actual hp gain would be, but if you see the before/after ports, you'll realise how much better they will flow.
if we do that, i don't want you to change anything on the car--no exhaust, intake, nothing except maybe just making sure the air/fuel ratio is about the same. i'd want to see what the porting alone gives power-wise, then we can see how much of a difference everything else makes.

quitarjunkie were you from ?

hesperia, california.

oh your to far away.iam in new jersey ill be heading to las vegas on wensday.wish you were closer.thanks anyway

no problem. vegas is like 2 hours from me.....3 if you go the speed limit

actually, do you mind driving a couple hours? you can see the irons and take some pics if they're still here then.

guitar, do mine! im in arizona!

alright.
first one is basically free--just reimburse for the materials... after that, i'll get some kind of a price together. there's a lot more work than there is with the rx7 motor....that's for sure.

Wow I usually just stick to reading the aftermarket section but I'm kinda glad I came over here. Junkie I live in Rancho it's about a half hour from you. If you're still game I'd love to work something out. I of course have no problem driving out there. My girlfriend lives half an hour away in the other direction so I'm used to the drive. The 15N is a bitch but we'll figure it out. Just lemme know and we'll PM.

Edit: Also my car is stock (unless you consider a green air filter to be a mod :p ) So we would see some interesting dyno figs.

cool. whoever is first then...

rancho is closer to 45 minutes, but still well within range. remember, i want before and after dyno sheets with NOTHING else changed.

hold up... i want egt's too.

alright, we've all seen "stage 3", "stage 8", "stage 9 thousand" whatever around... i can't stand this shameless marketing ploy designed to lure in guys who just plain don't know any better.

with this porting, i think i'll call it mild and aggressive, where the mild will be not hacking through the coolant passage to retain the original integrity of the port wall. aggressive will be hoggin' that shit out and having the hole patched up by my homeboy at the welding shop. i believe that once it's welded, it's a done deal and will be as strong as the original, but since it hasn't been tested yet, please take that as ONLY my belief, and definately not fact, the word, truth, undeniable, etc. etc.

EGT's? Explain please?
Exhaust gas temps?

exactly. i'd like to know how they will be effected.
since we're focusing on getting the gas out more easily and not solely on getting more air in, i don't think the afr's will change to any great extent...maybe somewhere between 2 and 3/10ths of a point to the lean side--which is fine considering how rich these things run to begin with.

Something about this thread seems a little....... sticky. :D

Will you please photo-document the process, or at least the final porting for educational purposes guitarjunkie? This thread needs to be dipped in gold and preserved for all time. Hats of to whomever has the balls to participate in this pioneering effort. Look forward to all the dyno info!

exactly. i'd like to know how they will be effected.
since we're focusing on getting the gas out more easily and not solely on getting more air in, i don't think the afr's will change to any great extent...maybe somewhere between 2 and 3/10ths of a point to the lean side--which is fine considering how rich these things run to begin with.
Ah, thanks, I wasn't sure what you meant, good luck with your project. Can't wait for the dynos. :D

Since the stock exhaust ports are so restrictive, I can see why aftermarket exhaust only add 3-4 hp. Really with the flow so bottled up by those two 90 degree turns in the motor, any change to the flow characteristics beyond them are trivial to performace. So not only will changing these ports allow the motor to make more power, they should also allow an higher flowing exhaust to do its job and make even more power, yes? Say 8-10 hp for an exhaust on a ported motor.

i think you hit the nail on the head there s13

ideally, i'd like to see a bone stock setup, then stock+ full exhaust,
ported/stock exhaust, then ported/ full exhaust.

i think that 8-10 hp gain will be increased by quite a bit. maybe not the 60 bolt on hp like on the fc's, but enough to give you an extra kick in hte butt when you're on it.

btw, i'm honored to be nominated for a sticky.

i'd like to thank the academy :D

btw, i'm honored to be nominated for a sticky.

i'd like to thank the academy :D
Hahaha. I think it's great that we have another DIY tuner doing somethine awesome like this. Thanks for sharing all of your info, it's really appreciated by all the tuners out there.

i do stuff from home, but since cars are my sole source of income (and rotaries are 90% of that), i like to think of myself as just a little bit more than a diy'er. thanks for the compliment though!

Well can you recommend a place good for a dyno in our area? I'll make my way there as soon as I can. I know GT Motorsports has one but I've received mixed opinions about that place. It's not really that big of a deal getting precise numbers for my car cause all we're looking for is the difference before and afterward. Also maintaining consistent situations and stuff like that. Just let me know of a place and I'll be there. Lata.

P.S. It should only take me half an hour. 2 speeding tickets in the last year to prove it. hehe jk

Also I have a dig camera so I'd supply the pics of the whole process.

i do stuff from home, but since cars are my sole source of income (and rotaries are 90% of that), i like to think of myself as just a little bit more than a diy'er. thanks for the compliment though!
Was not aware of that, but that makes your research all the more credible(not knocking the DIYers, we love you guys too)

thanks,
but some people make breakthroughs in fields totally unrelated to their work. rotorgod sounds like he knows more about porting than i do, and i do it all the time...he's a real estate agent (i think that was it). just goes to show anyone can do anything.

i've found that the only real difference between diy'ers and professionals is the presentation and clarity in the explanation. the very best automotive i've ever seen has come from garages--not big name shops. i'm always reading books and studying. i like to think i'm really good at what i do, but i still learn new stuff all the time. that's why i'm taking a more objective approach for doing the renesis motor.

thanks,
but some people make breakthroughs in fields totally unrelated to their work. rotorgod sounds like he knows more about porting than i do, and i do it all the time...he's a real estate agent (i think that was it). just goes to show anyone can do anything.

i've found that the only real difference between diy'ers and professionals is the presentation and clarity in the explanation. the very best automotive i've ever seen has come from garages--not big name shops. i'm always reading books and studying. i like to think i'm really good at what i do, but i still learn new stuff all the time. that's why i'm taking a more objective approach for doing the renesis motor.
I hope it all works out, and I'm glad that you're working to better the performance of this awesome car. It must be pretty a pretty neat job, I'd love to do something like this, but therein lies the dilemma, I'm not too good when it comes to tools, or building things or anything like that.

snoochi,
i found out yesterday there's a dyno right by my house!! only $55 an hour too. i've got a new shop! one thing is the numbers will be slightly lower due to the 4500 foot elevation. where we do it isn't important, just as long as we do it at the same place after too.

how quick do you wanna do this?

This is very cool- thanks guitarjunkie for contributing your time to this cause. I'm very eager to see the results... :D

well i gotta be honest...i'll donate the first one to research, then i have proof of hp gains so i can start charging. it's like an investment for me, so i'm not as noble as it seems :D

It'd need to be a monday or wednesday. I work 15 hour days on sun/tue/thur/fri/sat. In fact I'm at work right now letting everyone else work cause I'm so hyped about this. I just gotta let my professor know I'm not going to class and everything should be cool. Lemme know if you can do it next monday or wednesday...

I could "in theory" be able to do it another day, I'd have to do some major getting people to cover me. I'd just prefer not going that route.

i usually don't know what's going on until it's already happened...
so gimma a call when you wanna do it and we'll get the dyno done. if you can get an egt in the car before then, that'd be great!

after the dyno run, all i need is the irons and we can knock out the porting in one day. i've already got the templates made.

I do have to comment on one thing guitar' (I play too btw), I disagree with cutting into the water jacket and then rewelding it up. I strongly believe that it is ported too far at this point. This is also the large turn radius of the port and this area actually doesn't need to be as sharp or deep. The port does not need to be so large that it cuts into this. The timing will get too big at this poit anyways. That would be opening the exhaust ports way too early. Too early is bad for low end power. While this seems like a good compromise remember that the lack of port overlap hurts top end power. Don't cancel yourself out. Don't take the exhaust ports down any lower than the bottom of the runner. This is getting too crazy on the opening timing. We need to be more focused on port velocity over port volume. This is the whole point of movig the exhaust port down even with the bottom of the runner. It is a big turbulent wall right now. It would be one thing if the exhaust sleeve matched with the stock port openings but they don't. We are just smoothening flow but trying not to go any larger than necessary on the ports. They are already 50% greater in area than a stock 13B exhaust port.

The intake side should only be cleaned up. Maybe close the primaries a little later but just focus on the runner to port short turn radius transition. I actuall fill the back of the port in thus area with epoxy to help accelerate flow through here. I don't recommend this to everyone unless they know the proper preparation and epoxy to use.

I'll see if I can find a picture of a Renesis housing to draw where the timing marks should be enlarged to.

Where and how would I do the egt? Ima probably take my car into the dealership on monday and have them fix stuff and get the M-flash. Can they do it?

Edit: RG, thanks for the input, want this to be as good as possible for ma baby.

Don't take the exhaust ports down any lower than the bottom of the runner.

you end up cutting through the water jacket BEFORE you get it even with the port runner!! i really didnt' open them up that early, i think i just made it seem that way with statements like.."i hogged through that shit" i'm really quite a bit more conservative than i lead on. you've got some great advice though. i think i'm right on this one, but i will absolutely not shun your advice! i'd like to do 2-one each way and compare them side by side. since most of your power is generated in the first half of the expansion cycle, i don't think advancing the port opening will have any noticably adverse effect on low end (keep in mind i said THINK--i could still be wrong), and if it does, i think it will more than make up through improved scavenging through the midrange and top end. wish we had the time and money--we'd probably make a good pair for opening a shop.

so if we go through the water jackets or not is gonna be snoochy's choice--it's his motor. i think the results will be just fine either way though.

the fastest reacting egt i've ever seen is the defi d gauge.

maybe in the exhaust manifold, right after the last port. i would say about 6 inches down, but i think it's got a cat right there and that may throw the readings off... ummm anyone got a better idea on where to stick that thing?

mine's 6 inches after the turbo...oh yea, you guys don't have turbos. my bad ;)
my motor goes brap brap brap :D

Well what do you have to say to that RG?

I'm mega postwhoring in here but once it starts including my car I'ma postwhore as much as I want. Also did you want to do the true duel exhaust set up that RG was talking about? We could just tinker with porting first if you want pure dyno numbers and maybe go true duel later? I don't know what this involves labor and materials wise I'm just throwing ideas out there.

Also how do I measure the egt?

If you and RG come to an agreement on something I'll need to change my pants I'll be so happy. I just want this to work out in the end for the best.

And will this all help my car's lifespan cause effectively my car has to try less to perform it's normal duties? If so I'm sure me speeding all the time will negate it but it's good to know.

i don't think it will do anything to the lifespan, and not much for the efficiency, but possibly better fuel economy...but then again, possibly worse. one thing though, i'm sure it will make more power.

rg and i aren't exactly disagreeing, i think i've seen a little more in reguards to the coolant passage because i've got it right here in front of me. if he were here, he'd see it too and i'm sure we'd have a very similar, if not the same, opinion.

just so you guys get an idea of how thin that wall is--think about the intake ports on the fc's...it's even thinner than that.

you know what i really like about this is we're both voicing opinions in a respectful way--and even if we do disagree on anything, we're not stepping on eachothers toes or trying to cut eachother down. try getting that on some of the other forums!! :D

Man try getting that on this forum sometimes. No j/k. This whole thing is awesome and I'm very lucky to be a part of it. What do you think about the dual exhaust also?

i think he's got an awesome idea there and i'd definately like to try it--just not on this round. i think that may be just a little more work than i want to do for free. lol

Here is a crude outline of where I'd want to run the exhaust port to. How are you hitting water if you aren't going any larger than this. Take a picture of it somehow.

because the coolant passage actually does this:

I got ya now. I would probably only port it up to that point and not past. spend alot of time cleaning up the inside edges. I'd do this on the first one and then maybe get more extreme in the future. I'll probably just have to spend the money and buy a housing so I can port one and make my own templates.

this is actually a tad bigger than the actual port... keep in mind i port better than i draw.

if you notice the "red zone", that's where the leading edge of the rotor passes by the port. i kept material there to make sure the side/corner seal junction was supported throughout its journey through the engine.

hope this clarifies it a little more.

when you bevel the edge, you can actually get a pretty hefty radius on it--just can't do much along the vertical axis without hacking into it. seriously, it's about 1.2-1.5mm thick...optimistically

so the port ended up a bit narrower than i'd like, but i'd rather have the side/corner seal supported. taking that corner out wouldn't be any big hp improvement over the way it is, so better safe...

Alright this all sounds awesome. Inluding being safe with the side seal because that seems to be the part where everyone doesn't wanna screw with. I was just tossing ideas out there before. But, if this porting works out well I'd be more than willing to pay for the true duel exhaust of course :D

any possibility of making it up to my house this weekend to look at the one that's almst done and maybe shoot off some pics?

I work later today 4pm-10pm, 2marow 6:30am-2:30pm (Nordstrom)/3:00pm-10:00pm (Pick Up Stix) and Sunday from 10am-10pm..ahh the life of a student trying to afford gas. I could go up there saturday night if you have enough lighting that late, or monday I'm outta class around 1ish and I have the rest of the day free so we can try and do that? I'm sure we'll get something soon.

Nice information. Keep up the work!

Vince

i think we'll start a new thread once it gets under way--just so people that wanna see don't have to flip through hundreds of posts...

i'm expecting good results. nothing dramatic, but a nice solid gain across the rpm band.

i think we'll start a new thread once it gets under way--just so people that wanna see don't have to flip through hundreds of posts...

i'm expecting good results. nothing dramatic, but a nice solid gain across the rpm band.
That sounds good to me, considering we can't get a lot of the across the band power. Most of the bolt-ons add a few hp to the top end, after 7k rpm or so. Good luck.

i'm looking for solid, duplicatable results as opposed to just the end number.

Man I can't sleep I so want this like yesterday

... that makes two of us Snoochie Boochies! :D

i'll warn the rest of you that if this pans out, look for the porting cost to be relatively high--as it's about 5 times the work of the rx7 motors!

but ther than some very minor cleanup work, the first one is DONE! :D

can not wait to see the dyno results.

Cannot wait to see some track results. :D

I can understand not wanting to totally punish your car though. Isn't there some sort of standard 5-60 "rolling start" test the magazines do? Basically so you don't trash your clutch and transmission.



(and Vince, weren't you banned?)

it's be great to get all the performance specs with and without the porting. i think the most important thing of all is going to be snoochies butt-dyno. how does it feel? how do you like it? etc etc.

i guess time will tell. as long as i've got nothing to do when he drops the irons off, it should be a one day turnaround-maybe 2. now it may take up to a week if i'm busy, but i'm anxious to get it done ASAP!!!

Yup yup. Should I get my brother or someone to drive up with me just in case I need to leave it there over night or for an extended period?

Guitar this all sounds great, but if I were you I'd be careful about posting about prices and such. Now I'm sure just about everyone on the board loves what you're working on, but the Mods have these "rules" :D . If you're going to talk about pricing and stuff you'd have to become a forum vendor, and I'm not sure you want to give yourself that status yet as I believe there is a cost to be a vendor. If I made a mistake on that one some please let me know. I hope the porting comes out real nice. One last thing. As far as what you've previously done to other motors, how is the sound after porting? Thanks.

thanks for the warning. if the time comes when i start wanting to advertise, i'll look into the vendor status. i certainly don't want to overstep my bounds on this forum!

porting depends a lot on the exhaust system. obviously, it will make it at least a little bit louder since there's more air going into the motor. the loudest porting i've done so far has been a heavily exhaust ported half-bridge. it's in my car :D

How far are you from L.A. or any other major airport, guitar? I can fly roundtrip in the U.S. for only $25 since my sister works for Continental. I could fly out there for a day or two to check these out and do some porting.

great!!!
if you can fly to ontario international, i can pick you up--i'm about an hour from there.
i'm about 2 hours as the bird flys from LAX, but it's typically 2 1/2-3 hrs with traffic. if you have to fly there, try to make the arrival time after 9pm...after traffic dies down.

i'll hook you up with the couch, or help you find a hotel in the area. look forward to having you! you, snoochie and i should have a conference call or something.

OH GOOD GOD! If you come out here rotarygod I will let you stay at my house if your willing to listen to me ask you a million questions(half joking)!! Or we could figure out the hotel thing hehe. I live about 20 minutes from Ont. Airport on the way to Guitarjunkies. I'm gonna call him in like 5 seconds and figure stuff out.

Cannot wait to see some track results. :D

I can understand not wanting to totally punish your car though. Isn't there some sort of standard 5-60 "rolling start" test the magazines do? Basically so you don't trash your clutch and transmission.



(and Vince, weren't you banned?)

I'm back thank you!

Vince

Ontario is easy. LAX is crazy busy and hard to fly into. Ontario wouldn't be bad. Now I just need to see what my schedule is like. I could probably come out one day and leave the next. I don't think I could get away for more than 2 days.

Well the plan is on monday I'm going up there to Dyno and do the egt maybe (still don't know exactly how to do that, stick a termometer at the tip of the exhaust?). Therefore we would be all set to get in gear. Then whatever day you head out here we (by we I mean you two, with me watching) can do everything needed.

we can dyno it without rg. that way, he can just come out when it's time to port.

Yeah I don't really have time to go pull an engine out and then tear it down. We'd never get any sleep. This isn't monster garage.

All I can say is...."pics plz" :D

my buddy came over to pick up his fd and snapped off some pics today. lemme photochop 'em and you can see where the first one is at.

my buddy came over to pick up his fd and snapped off some pics today. lemme photochop 'em and you can see where the first one is at.
Pretty sweet that you're going to get to work with Rotarygod on this one. He's of the most knowledgeable people I've ever encountered...and he seems like a real cool guy too. I'm hoping that you two rotor heads can make this project into a reality for all the 8 owners. Make sure you guys have a camera the day you screw around with the engine :D Good luck guys, may the force be with you! (Just watched Empire Strikes Back, sorry)

This is a great thread! I've enjoyed reading this more than most suspense novels; it's like being on the verge of a great discovery or something. :)

I'm just a few miles away from Snoochie; I live in North Fontana Ranch area. I will be VERY interested to see the results of this project. The only performance mod I have on mine is a Racing Beat exhaust. It would be interesting to see what the performance gains would be on an 8 with the stock exhaust, versus the improved flow of Racing Beat's exhaust. RB's exhaust may make a much bigger difference on a ported engine than on a stock engine. I love the way the RB exhaust sounds, and it does seem to pull a tiny bit better at the high end of the rpms. If porting and an RB exhaust unleashes a significant amount of power, then this will be a great way to go.

Pretty sweet that you're going to get to work with Rotarygod on this one. He's of the most knowledgeable people I've ever encountered...and he seems like a real cool guy too.

You've obviously never met me!!! :D

IF I can get out there, let's have a SoCal meet. I'd like to meet some of you guys or re-meet those I saw at Sevenstock a couple of months ago.

Hay Guys mmMmMMM can I help IN Somthing ?? LOL 100% stock here still I live in riverside by the way i want to see what is the End results :) if i can Please thanks :)

You've obviously never met me!!! :D

IF I can get out there, let's have a SoCal meet. I'd like to meet some of you guys or re-meet those I saw at Sevenstock a couple of months ago.

This would be way cool. Just post when and where; if I'm not working, I'll be there!

You've obviously never met me!!! :D

IF I can get out there, let's have a SoCal meet. I'd like to meet some of you guys or re-meet those I saw at Sevenstock a couple of months ago.
I'd love to go to SoCal, only problem is...I'm in NY. But if the dates fit, maybe a road trip will be in order. I'd like to meet a lot of these guys too.

A road trip to SoCal from NY!!! Good lord that is dedication! I'm still taking a plane.

This is for sale in Torrance right now. Someone get it!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=7936260342&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

This is for sale in Torrance right now. Someone get it!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=7936260342&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW 5 days left. I'll take a look in a few. The carfax isnt working atm. Is this for a full car or just the engine and transmission?

Ahh. .Salvage title. Severe accident. I wonder where it was hit?

. Is this for a full car or just the engine and transmission?


This is a 2004 1.3L L2 MOTOR AND 6-SPEED TRANS

Somebody should transplant those into a miata :)

Just the engine an tranny. No car.

Just the engine an tranny. No car.
Yea, i got that after reading the carfax. Just poorly worded.

Anyway, i'll look into it at the end of the auction (and after I call them and find out where the accident was). If it's still reasonable towards the end, I may buy it for an experimental engine.

I was going to just buy a brand new Renesis center housing so I could redesign and machine a new exhaust sleeve and so I could learn where to port the center housing but the damn thing costs $433 new!!! Holy crap! I'd consider the eBay engine a good deal under $2000.

This is for sale in Torrance right now. Someone get it!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=7936260342&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
That's my zip code? what the heck is that?
is that a fully working RX8 for that price? :eek:
May I should get a second RX8 :D

That's my zip code? what the heck is that?
is that a fully working RX8 for that price? :eek:
May I should get a second RX8 :D

Oops just the engine+tranny, never mind. :rolleyes:

crappy pics, but better than nothing.

these ports are basically done--except the final cleanup with the sanding wheels.

the intake is probably a bit larger than the future ones will be, but i'm sure it'll get the job done.

and no dyno today :(
apparently, god saw it fit to make it snow where i live.....keep in mind, i live in the desert.

so whenever that crap melts off, we'll get the dyno pull in.

Alright I was just going to call you and see if you still wanted to do this but it won't work out with this junky snow. We'll do this asap everyone don't worry.

so what did your car dyno at before the port?

is the car back together, and just waiting for normal weather for the dyno? If so, notice any changes?

crappy pics, but better than nothing.

these ports are basically done--except the final cleanup with the sanding wheels.
Those edges look very good.

Nice and smooth looking. You really smoothed out that exhaust port. The difference is amazing.

For the port illiterate, can someone post a picture of the original ports? I have no idea what these pictures mean because I have no basis for comparison. Thanks.

if you go a page or two back, rg posted one with a shape drawn on it. you can use that as a reference.

any more progress on this? obviously very interested in any results as of yet :)

tentatively, we may be doing the dyno pull tomorrow.

Can't wait for the results.

Yeah I had plans for 2marow but I was willing to get people mad at me to go up and pull this thing. And we can actually see sunlight now so there shouldn't be any interruptions.

just give a call when you know for sure and i'll schedule it with the place. i may dyno the halfie too just for fun.

If you guys are planning on pulling the engine out in the near future, I need to know when and it's got to be kept on schedule. I can get out there for a couple of days but it also has to be during the week. The weekend is harder to fly on since I go standby.

we doing it today snoochie?

alrighty then...
150-someodd in 4th gear
162 in 3rd gear.

forgot to check the afr's in 4th, but 3rd was right around 12:1 @5500-7500 rpm, then leaned out to about 12.5@ 87-8800.

this is @ 4500 ft above sea level and 60 someodd ambient temps. i'm not sure if the dyno accounts for elevation in the correction, but that's not important anyway....we're looking for % gain, not the actual hp.

so we're under way. next step is to pull the motor and have my way with it :D

If you guys want me to come out there, you're going to need to give me some warning in advance.

will do

Good job so far, if it all works out I think I'll have to be one of your first customers since I live near by. Can't wait to see the numbers.

Yeah we'll let you know in advance. I need to get someone to help me pull it out so I'll keep you guys updated.

work has kinda slowed down the last week... bad for my money situation, but good for time. i think i'll be able to help pull it. :)

btw,
anyone have l vs. m flash dyno comparisons?

This thread is an exemplary example of what this forum should be like. Good luck fellas.

no real difference between l and m flash HP. this is a very interesting thread. i cant believe Fred is going to put his hands on someone else's motor besides mine- DAMN YOU FRED!! I WANTED TO BE YOUR FIRST :p :o :p :D :rolleyes: i seriously gotta get my funds in order and get that extra renesis to play with. Keep up the good work fellas!

Alright I'm calling people to help pull this beast out and hopefully my buddy can do it. Would a monday be good for you dave? Maybe this upcoming monday or even the one after? lemme know. Later and thanks for everything.

Well actually this monday isn't good because I'm taking my car to the dealership for them to do stuff. I.e. brakes/cd player/rear headlight cracked. Nothing effecting what we're doing. I just want them to fix this stuff before they say they won't. I'll call you dave and we'll figure a time out.

okie..
monday is when i was planning on getting the halfie on the dyno. turned the boost up to 12 and it hardly has traction in 2nd gear now.

no real difference between l and m flash HP. this is a very interesting thread. i cant believe Fred is going to put his hands on someone else's motor besides mine- DAMN YOU FRED!! I WANTED TO BE YOUR FIRST :p :o :p :D :rolleyes: i seriously gotta get my funds in order and get that extra renesis to play with. Keep up the good work fellas!
I'm touched that you wanted me to deflower your car before anyone else. This bit of practice will just mean that I am better at it when I get to you!

I'll get the M after we do the porting and do a dyno b4 and after so we can see the results.

I think I'd get it before the port job. Don't want Mazda pulling anything stupid if they suspect the engine is ported. They pull dumb crap now. Don't give them an excuse.

I was just wondering but how would they know? I doubt they would like open up the engine to check on everyone that comes in? Maybe I'm missing something. If we wanna do it now I'm going in on monday I can have them do it. We can just dyno again. I don't really mind. 40 bucks isn't anything.

Unless you came in with a engine related problem I don't see how they would even know.

BTW...you did know the latest flash is on hold?

Chances are when you go in they will send you out with no flash.

Might want to call ahead...

They'll just drive every car RX8 that comes in "to evaluate whether it needs new brake pads" or something. When they drive yours they should be able to tell a difference and then have a look at the engine ;)

I just think that it is safer to get it done first. Some dealerships give a hassle over tiny things. Others look the other way when it comes to mods. What if we port this thing and then have a check engine light that keeps coming back? They're going to want to troubleshoot it. I'm not saying this will happen but you never know. I'd rather play it safe. Since we aren't going to increase the overlap at all, I don't suspect that you'll notice anything different from the idle or emissions standpoint. It "should" be just fine. I'm just overly cautious I guess. It should still appear to be 100% stock just by looking at it.

Very true RG. We have a little bit of time. I'm going to the dealership regardless on monday and I'll try and have them do the M flash but i'll update on what happens.

Are you planning on doing the porting in December or wait until after New Years? Depending on when it is in December will greatly affect my chances of flying since I go standby. January is easy though. I also need about a 2 weeks notice.

for me, the sooner the better.
but everything depends on everything else...y'know?

Damn! The eBay engine,tranny and ECU went for 4500.00. It would be nice to have a spare...

Vince

4500 isn't bad, but i've heard the trannies are weak--not good for turbos. is that true, or bs?

Very true RG. We have a little bit of time. I'm going to the dealership regardless on monday and I'll try and have them do the M flash but i'll update on what happens.


I see RG's point. But as of today the new flash is causing CEL's..

At least wait until they fix the code issue with the "L" flash.

IMHO

might as well just hold off then. we've already got the l flash dyno.

halfie did 386 @ 12.5 psi today :)
i would have turned up the boost, but my fuel pump is out of steam :(

This is a long thread, so for clarification "halfie" is your ported and turboed renesis right?

What turbo did you decide to use on it?

386hp to the wheels. Holy crap

no, the halfie is my fc.
i've been so busy working on everyone else's stuff, that was the first chance i've had in like 7 weeks to play with my own :)
turbo is a 62-1 with a 1.15 p trim hot side. i'm out of range as far as compressor efficiency goes. i think i may bump it up to a t70 or 72 maybe... but once i get my fuel stuff under control, i should be able to make 440 to the wheels with this one.

the turbo renesis isn't gonna be a dyno whore anymore. we were gonna do it, but the budget fell short at the last minute, so 320-340 whp will be the goal for that one. just enough to have fun with :)

forgot--the turbo for the renesis will probably be a t04b with a super h compressor. if the motor isn't happy with it, we'll bump it up to a 60-1, but that's too much turbo for the low 300's.

Wow.

i forgot to post this yesterday..
i dyno'd my car at the same place as the rx8. they had a problem and couldn't print up the graph last tiem, so they gave it to me yesterday.

here's the hp difference between 3rd and 4th gear:

looks like the aux ports only build power in 3rd!! i'd like to disable them in 4th and do another pull--see where that takes it.

this leads me to reaffirmate what i said earlier about getting the air in not being a problem... with the exhaust porting, i expect to see quite a bit more power gain when the aux ports open, but without sacrificing ANYTHING down low....hopefully. but i guess we won't know for absolute sure until the ported n/a motor gets dyno'd.

those are some low ass HP numbers.

looks like the aux ports only build power in 3rd!! i'd like to disable them in 4th and do another pull--see where that takes it.

this leads me to reaffirmate what i said earlier about getting the air in not being a problem... with the exhaust porting, i expect to see quite a bit more power gain when the aux ports open, but without sacrificing ANYTHING down low....hopefully. but i guess we won't know for absolute sure until the ported n/a motor gets dyno'd.
Sounds great. I figured since you were going to port your engine and then turbo it that FI shouldn't be a problem with porting, but are there any risks involved with porting and then a turbo? Thanks.

those are some low ass HP numbers.

looks like a mustang dyno.

Sounds great. I figured since you were going to port your engine and then turbo it that FI shouldn't be a problem with porting, but are there any risks involved with porting and then a turbo? Thanks.

yea, the turbo 8 project is laggin' hardcore--not by my own hand, mind you...i've been ready for the last week and a half. i haven't totally decided, but the canzoomer ecu looks like it may be the winner. i'd like to keep everything working basically how it does now, just with added fuel enrichment and boost timing delay. i wanna keep the obd2 stuff as well.

it just looks like the stock ecu with a piggyback will be the easiest option for now...

and it was a dynojet @ 4500 ft elevation. same one i dyno'd my car on.

The average dyno for stock is what? 171hp I think. So taking away 9hp for being in the mountains looks pretty average to me.

yeah you are right but that is just the lowest dynojet number for an 8 i have seen. i watched 2 8's go back to back up in the mountains of washington state awhile back and one pulled 175 and the other pulled 179. that was a dynojet. that's at a higher elevation than 4500 im sure and they were both stock. but it was also early evening just after the sun had gone down and high 70's.

Maybe those runs were corrected numbers for elevation and temperature where this one wasn't.

if that was uncorrected, i'm really close to 400 @ 12.5 psi. me likey :)

You don't use correction for turbocharged cars. Since the air is thinner up high it obviously takes more of it to get the same amount of power. A turbo wastegate is set to open at a certain pressure. The turbo will just ingest more air to get the total air density the same as if it were at sea level. A nonturbo car will not do this. That is why they need correcction.

gotcha

thanks for the info :)
i turned the boost up just a tiny bit more ~14psi...now i can actually claim 400rwhp with some validity.

so snoochie, when we gonna do this?

Well if you have spare time we can pull my car on 2 or 3 sep days cause it'll take too long to do it in one day. Ima just get my Mom to get a rental and I'll use her truck for a while. We can do it down at my house. I'll clear room and we can use the whole garage. Lemme know if you wanna do this. I'll give you money for gas and whatnot coming down here. If we can do this we can do it soon.

alright.
let me know what day you're thinking of and i'll try to schedule around it.

do you know anyone with a truck? i'm a lazy ass and i wanna bring my air compressor. it'll save hours and hours...trust me

yeah you are right but that is just the lowest dynojet number for an 8 i have seen. i watched 2 8's go back to back up in the mountains of washington state awhile back and one pulled 175 and the other pulled 179. that was a dynojet. that's at a higher elevation than 4500 im sure and they were both stock. but it was also early evening just after the sun had gone down and high 70's.I got 179 at 5300 ft elevation back when I first got my car, and hadn't done anything to it except the Borla.

... i haven't totally decided, but the canzoomer ecu looks like it may be the winner...That being the case, you really should talk to Maurice (Canzoomer). He's been working on a supercharged '8 with his Canzoomer unit for quite some time now, and pretty much has all the bugs worked out. PM me for info.

already talked to him :).

The air compressor I have at my house says on it

6.5 @ 40 PSI
5.1 @ 90 PSI
125 PSI MAX

It's pretty big so will this work so you don't have to tote yours down here?
Also anybody know what the cheapest car rental place is? :D

First day we could start on it could be monday I suppose at around 1ish.

that should work for the air tools..

I guess you guys don't want me to come out there then?

i don't know what's going on.

Kinda mad at myself for not pushing this forward so here we go...

Does monday work for you? I'd be game for it. I would say I'd pick you up but I wouldn't have a car to drive you back with. :D Also could we do more/maybe finish pulling it on wednesday? In the same sense we could start on wednesday if monday isn't good for you. I would just like a timetable down so I can know how long I need the rental for.

Do you think it'll take 2 or 3 days to pull it? Probably depends on our schedules and how long we have to pull it. For me I could work on monday from 1ish till sundown or later. So here's a recap...

1. Can you come down on mon the 6th/wed the 8th?
2. Also what about the next mon/wed (the 13th and 15th)
3. How long can you stay down here if in fact you can come down on those days?
4. Is there another day that works for you? I can switch up my schedule to fit what you need...

And where is the cheapest rental place??

Alright hopefully this thing gets underway now.

I would like to show you guys how to construct a very cheap but very useful flowbench so you can test those ports. No more guess work! If you've got a shop vac, Home Depot has the rest.

guitar: If you've still got those ported housings lying aroudn unassembled, I'm wondering if you can make a mold of the runners and ports and send them to me for flow testing. I'd really like to have an original untouched port mold too. Here's a link to a website that shows how to do it on piston engines. Yes it has to be apart. The technique is the same. I've done it with some of my housings. Once I get these molds, I can make a copy out of fiberglass or plaster and then flowbench them. I don't even need a motor in my possession. This is a neat way to develop port shapes all day long without ever touching a motor plate. Once you get it where you want it, then you try to copy it on the real thing. You can get in the ballpark. Flow testing isn't accurate from the standpoint that you know how much a rotary engine actually flows. It is a good frame of reference though when you are comparing it to other parts of the intake and exhaust system and to tell if what you did actually was better or not. There are other things it tells you but I'll get into that later. Try this and see how it works. If you get one good, send it to me.

http://www.diyporting.com/molds.html

I don't even need a motor in my possession.

speaking of that..... check your pms in a about 1 minute:)

very good idea!!!
only problem is it's been 30's at night and 40's in the day here....it'd take forever for the rtv to dry.....i'd get killed if i brought the irons in the house. :p

since this got moved to major hp upgrades i sure hope it puts out. lol

I have just the stuff for this. Addition cured vinylpolysiloxane dental impression material. :D

Accurate to micron range and sets in any thickness in three minutes. Only problem it's a bit pricey............

It needs to be very flexible so you can pull it out of the housing. That's why gasket maker is used and it isn't made to be solid but rather hollow.

guitar: Use a heat lamp. If you use the Permatex gasket maker, it will still cure in cold weather too. Just give it several hours between layers. Don't try to do the whole thing in one day. You'll only spend a few minutes on it per layer anyways so it isn't like it takes much time.

I have just the stuff for this. Addition cured vinylpolysiloxane dental impression material. :D

Accurate to micron range and sets in any thickness in three minutes. Only problem it's a bit pricey............
How pricey?

Vince

It's very flexible.....it's a fancy silicone.....but two part, so that it dries quickly. The slow set stuff is about 6 minutes....and the fast is about 3. It is as flexible as the gasket maker as well..... It's about $60 for about the amount in a silicone caulking tube? More than makes up for the time it would take o do it the other way??

ayeeet!!
we start on wednesday :)
sorry it's taking so long.

Why is this not near the top 100 percent of the time? Well basically I'm gonna take it up 2marow after I get out of class and I'm going to order the O-rings and gaskets as soon as I get Dave's addy. We will almost for sure have a dyno before the new year. Unless it never gets hotter that is (I think we did the first run in like 80 degree temps and recently it's been like 40 up there). Everyone better not lose interest because we're going to have some solid figures pretty soon.

Excellent news...

i'm gonna bust ass and try to get the motor out and torn down tomorrow (depending on how much it fights me). last one i pulled i had a lift at my disposal-not just jack stands in my driveway.

if any so. cal boys wanna help pull/install, you can see how it's done and i'll pay you....but not a whole lot cuz i'm poor :)

If i were in so. cal I'd help for free.

thanks man! i'd at least hook you up with lunch and gas money then some extra though..

Yeah I thought I posted this but here's a redo. Ima hopefully stay up there with you and help/watch you work if you can give me a ride home afterward. As late as you'd like to :D

cool beans!! with 2 people in on it, we may get it out before you go home!

Let me introduce you to my little Friend!

http://www.dewalt.com//ProductImages/PC_Graphics/PHOTOS/DEWALT/TOOLS/LARGE/9/DW937K_1.jpg

:eek:

When you disassemble that engine, keep track of the EXACT locations that every single little seal comes out of. They absolutely MUST go back in the same spots. No exceptions. Yes it matters. The engine was broken in this way and needs to stay this way. Do not rush this part and lose track of where they go. I usually take a piece of cardboard and trace a rotor on it. Then I lay out the pieces on the cardboard in the corresponding locations and mark the rotors. Take the time to do this. I can't stress this enough. Also do not mix up the rotor locations. Front stays front and vice versa. Hopefully you know all of this already. Take the time and do it right.

thanks, but this isn't my first rotary. not by a long shot.
interestingly, the side seals are now pre-cut and no sizing is needed, unlike the rx7 motors. a lot more effort has been put into the manufacture and design of the rotors for consistancy.

Good luck guys, and thanks for keeping us posted.

thanks, but this isn't my first rotary. not by a long shot.
interestingly, the side seals are now pre-cut and no sizing is needed, unlike the rx7 motors. a lot more effort has been put into the manufacture and design of the rotors for consistancy.


some would say they are pre-cut incorrecetly.

Unlike previous rotaries, the RX-8 has letter stamps on the sides of the rotors which correspond to certain side seal lengths. It is very important that these letters match up with the seals that were intended to be used there. It is correct that you don't have to clearance them but you do have to put them back in the same spots they came from. I can't stress that part enough. Do not just pull the engine apart and let the seals fall where they will and then get back together in random locations. Yes they will still fit but they've already bedded themselves in to those exact spots. They must remain there. There is no excuse for not putting them back where they came from. The tolerance on these seals is actually worse then the older ones. I just can't stress this enough.

you're kinda preachin' to the choir here.

some would say they are pre-cut incorrecetly.
What does this mean?

I take it the "pre-cut" comment alludes to statements from some members of this site that the sideseals have been sized improperly from the factory, hence blowing engines.

i didn't measure the clearance on the one i've got apart so far, but it looked just fine with the eye-ball scope. i'll just make sure to double check everything when i put it back together.

i'm not sure what people are talking about with them being sized incorrectly. i've heard about ambiguous side seal failure (rounding edges), but i haven't seen it yet. i don't know if it's just a farse or what.

You should be able to see a nick in one of the ports where the corner seal is unsupported or something like that.

The comment about the side seals being incorrectly sized was actually aimed at the fact that the clearances are much larger on these seals than on the previous rotaries. You're not going to have a problem about them fitting tight. Although the published seal clearance specs don't seem any different, in reality they are. Each rotor face also has a letter next to it. There are a few different letters depending on where they are. There are also corresponding side seals to these letters. There are 4 different side seals. This is unlike the previous rotaries where 1 side seal was clearanced to all slots. Not true anymore.

Here are the measurements of each and their stamp applications:

167.883(-0.14--0.16)
Fits B, C, D, & E Stamps

167.883(-0.06--0.16)
Fits F, G, H, & I Stamps

167.883(0-+0.02)
Fits J, K, L, & M Stamps

167.883(+0.08-+0.10)
Fits N, O, P, & Q Stamps

The springs are all the same. This is why it is imperative that they all go back in their original spots. You don't need to measure anything. Just put them back where you got them. this is a must for any rotary rebuild anyways. Too many people just pull all the seals out and then randomly stick them back in wherever at reassembly time.

The greater clearances are actually needed on the Renesis. This is because the side seals see more heat than the older engine side seals. This heat causes them to expand more. I still find it weird that Mazda saw fit to make 4 different seals that correspond to faces. Using 1 seems the easiest.

I have also seen direct proof that the side seals can in fact hit the closing edge of the auxillary ports. This happened to the housing I examined at Racing Beat back in September. This is easy to fix with a die grinder if you know where.

^ WHAt fred said ^ i tried to make that post short and sweet having little time. i actually ended up wasting more time editing trying to find the right word to use. at least it got the response from RG that i was hoping for ;)

the leading edge of the corner/side seal is supported over the duration of the travel--all except for the very closing edge of the exhaust port. the one i've got apart right now has absolutely NO damage whatsoever. the side seals weren't rounded at the corner-like you'd expect from that kind of damage, the closing edges of all the ports were fine.

as far as the clearances go, i'll just have to take some pics so you guys understand how the new style side seals meet up with the corner seals.

Mazda also claims that this shouldn't be a problem, as they beefed up the side seals and went to the keystone shape to help protect the edge as it passed unsupported, albeit briefly.

the leading edge of the corner/side seal is supported over the duration of the travel--all except for the very closing edge of the exhaust port. the one i've got apart right now has absolutely NO damage whatsoever. the side seals weren't rounded at the corner-like you'd expect from that kind of damage, the closing edges of all the ports were fine.

as far as the clearances go, i'll just have to take some pics so you guys understand how the new style side seals meet up with the corner seals.
mmmmm pictures. Haha, anyway hows the port job going with Snoochie? Or did you not start it yet? I've been kind of slow lately so I apologize if this is a silly question. Snoochie, will you be there while Guitar rips the engine apart? And if so do you own a digital camera? If you answered yes to both of these questions do you think you could take some pictures for us along the way? You guy are awesome, good luck.

We already ripped alot of it out today. I think we stopped after taking out the upper intake manifold and he's going to finish it off 2marow morning. It only took us like 2 and a half hours to do a whole lot of work (then again I didn't do much but I unscrewed a couple things :D ). It was very fun though askign him a thousand questions and semi helping out.

I do have a digi cam but I forgot it today. Besides, the stuff we did today (just ripping it out) is really basic and anyone on here can rip theres out and take their own pictures. It's when porting time comes that pictures matter and he has a camera as well as i do.

We already ripped alot of it out today. I think we stopped after taking out the upper intake manifold and he's going to finish it off 2marow morning. It only took us like 2 and a half hours to do a whole lot of work (then again I didn't do much but I unscrewed a couple things :D ). It was very fun though askign him a thousand questions and semi helping out.

I do have a digi cam but I forgot it today. Besides, the stuff we did today (just ripping it out) is really basic and anyone on here can rip theres out and take their own pictures. It's when porting time comes that pictures matter and he has a camera as well as i do.
That's what I meant, mostly pictures of the actual porting. Thanks for the quick reply and I hope all goes well tomorrow :)

I won't be there 2marow because I work all day but I'ma go up in a few days hopefully before he ports so we can have some stock pics. Even if I'm not up there he has a camera so it's no worry. We'll keep you all updated we aren't hiding anything.

the leading edge of the corner/side seal is supported over the duration of the travel--all except for the very closing edge of the exhaust port. the one i've got apart right now has absolutely NO damage whatsoever. the side seals weren't rounded at the corner-like you'd expect from that kind of damage, the closing edges of all the ports were fine.

as far as the clearances go, i'll just have to take some pics so you guys understand how the new style side seals meet up with the corner seals.

It's funny but I made the EXACT same comments about side seal support before I saw one that did in fact hit. It can happen.

did the engine i've taken apart get a different set of irons or what? closing edge of the aux. intake port, right? the side/corner on the leading edge of the rotor was totally supported.

i've heard rumors about that, so i checked it extremely closely. but even so, i radiused all the closing edges, it helps flow out.

Guitar, please clarify that last post for us rotory challenged morons out here :confused:

Did you take out the other engine and fine it was different?

no, not yet.

but the one i have torn down looks like the corner/side seal junction is supported on the closing edge of the intake ports. i got a disposable camera--which takes 10x better pics than my digital, so i'll put my template on the top and snap off some pics. it'll just be a couple weeks before i'll get to post them though.

i WILL admit if i'm wrong-i'm not a prideful person.

You know, while you have the engine apart, its a shame not to replace the flywheel.

do they need to drop the tranny and take it apart to take apart the engine? The flywheel replacement isn't something they can do in 30 mins.

The side seal isn't an issue on all engines. They typically only hit in forced induction applications. This isn't to say that they will destroy an engine if they do touch though. The one Racing Beat had apart was a blown engine and it did have the mark. It was a pretty deep mark too. However, the engine didn't blow because of the side seal impact.

Good point, I guess I didn't think about that.

Its just the flywheel is a relatively cheap part, and adds alot of performance, just pop the tran off and take it somewhere with the new flywheel and have them swap it for you.

The side seal isn't an issue on all engines. They typically only hit in forced induction applications. This isn't to say that they will destroy an engine if they do touch though. The one Racing Beat had apart was a blown engine and it did have the mark. It was a pretty deep mark too. However, the engine didn't blow because of the side seal impact.

RG- is there any meat to the theory that the side seal damage you witnessed at RB was a result of blown apex seal shrapnel getting lodged between the side seal and port?

What????????/ The man has the whole engine apart and he needs someone else to change the flywheel??????????

They don't want to change the flywheel at this stage, the objective is to dyno the engine post porting to see the effect of JUST the porting. If they're undertaking an operation like this, dropping the transmission for a new flywheel won't be a big deal anyway.

**update**

engine is sitting in my driveway :). i gotta go make some room for it in the garage (i'm doing 4 motors right now).. it should hopefully be torn down by tonight--tomorrow morning at worst. i'll get the exhaust porting done and welded up tomorrow, then take my time over the weekend for everything else.

it's a lot warmer today then it has been for the last week, so i may try that port mold tactic. so anyone know where i can get the release compound, or would wd40 work?

i shop i talk to said you should see anywere between 40 to 50 hps they done about 4 of them.

what shop did you talk to that said they had ported a renesis? or at least where are they? :)

Yeah.. I would have thought we'd have heard about it by now if somebody else had ported a Renesis.. 40 to 50 would be very nice! :)

smokinjoeracing ,they will be doing my car as soon as i get my transmission checked my 2 will not go in on high rpms , they only work on rotarys