It's been weeks now that few of you guy's received the Canzoomer Stage 1, so any comments?

Yes, after 5000 RPM it's a blast, but really to do see that much difference?

It's a blast after 5000 RPMS!!

Seriously though...

You notice a difference if you frequently floor it past 5K RPM in 1st and 2nd gear... otherwise, probably not..

Don't expect it to really pin you to the seat either.. it feels about the same.. just quicker..

I notice it more when i stare at the RPM's as it climbs.. the needle moves faster with Stage I.

And when I say quicker I mean probably around .5 second (just a guess)

I can definatly tell that the curves of torque are different. It's just that you have to use them.....or know that they are there for the using.

....just last night I was leaving my brother-in-laws house and as I travelled down his street when suddenly, someone was on my back and very close at that. I thought, "okay, I'll move over and let him pass - maybe it's a cop or something."

As soon as he passes me, I see that it is a Miata. I think to myself, "Okay, let's show him what it's got". He and I then proceed to drive the twistys for the next mile; He never got away. As I pulled up beside him when we got to light for the freeway, both of us had this big grin and gave each other the thumbs up. I didn't really get to touch the full power of the car....it's there though, and I know it ......and love it.

- in a nutshell..or....I mean, ECU cover, THE STAGE 1 ROCKS!!!!!

....come on; let's hear some more stories.

Anyone willing should do this test:

Ask someone to turn OFF or ON the switch on the ECU without telling you, go for a test drive to see if you can guess it.

Simon.

I think that the Stage 1 has been a little over hyped. Don't get me wrong, I think it is an awesome mod but I feel that a lot of people are expecting it transform the RX-8 into a beast that can out run an EVO. That's not going to happen with this mod. ;)

What you will notice is that the engine runs significantly smoother and it is most noticeable at idle. The best way to feel the change in power is to start out slowly in 2nd gear, get the clutch engaged, then mash the throttle and do not let up until redline.

When the car is stock, the engine slowly starts to build power and there is a linear increase until you hit 7k RPMs. At that point the power starts to fall off and your rate of acceleration slows a little bit.

With the Stage 1 installed, the engine slowly starts to build power. When you pass 5k RPMs there is a definite surge in acceleration and you get pressed back into your seat. When you reach 7.5k RPMs you will feel another surge in power (a little smaller than the first one) and it continues to pull hard to 8.5k RPMs.

Another thing to note is that the engine is little quieter because it is running so smoothly. That kind of took a little bit of fun out of my Borla exhaust. Before it used to growl under hard acceleration and let out a couple of pops on decceleration. Now it just purrs all of the way to the redline line beeper and only lets out an occasional pop.

All in all I feel that the Stage 1 is the best bang for your buck mod that is currently available. Nice job Maurice! :D

I agree -- expectations are a little too high for this great mod.

Maybe CZ should have called this Stage 0 -- remember this is designed to get us back to where we were supposed to be before the emissions police raped us -- not turn the 8 into a track ready monster. I imagine that Stage 2 is a more noticable raw power upgrade from stock.

It does exactly what I thought it would do :D

People just need to remember that 25HP isnt that much in the butt dyno area. I remember the commonly quoted 10HP being the minimum you'll feel, so 25 isnt gonna be THAT huge a push.

Now to figure out that little dip at 4K RPM.

All I'm looking for from Stage 1 is a little bit of a "hit" to the 8's powerband to make it feel a little more exciting, and be a little quicker.

From all accounts, Stage 1 does that.

Enough for me. I'll pony up when I order my car in April. (finances dictate a bit of a wait)

Certainly hope that Stage 2 actually comes. I know Maurice is hard at work filling Stage 1 orders, but there has not even been a wimper about Stage 2 for a LONG time. Forget stage 1, it is only for the interim time till I get Stage 2. I do want to hang with EVOS, and I hope Stage 2 can help me out with that. Too bad I am still waiting for Stage 1. Patience my son..

Originally posted by Xavier296
Certainly hope that Stage 2 actually comes. I know Maurice is hard at work filling Stage 1 orders, but there has not even been a wimper about Stage 2 for a LONG time. Forget stage 1, it is only for the interim time till I get Stage 2. I do want to hang with EVOS, and I hope Stage 2 can help me out with that. Too bad I am still waiting for Stage 1. Patience my son..

I'm right there with ya bro! :)

Good to hear some additional reports. Thanks.

I'm "patiently" waiting for mine too! :(

Stage 2, hmm, lets see. It was -30 for the last 2 weeks. Canzoomer's car wouldn't start - for over a week (WELL flooded! - that's what trying to start a rotary at -30 without a block heater will do). It's running now. We -are- working on Stage 2. I just finished a module with the extra bits needed for prototyping (previously we had tested on the dyno to see what could be done - now we're working on the best way to do what we know we can). I suspect it will still take a few months before we are ready. It is, after all, still the middle of winter. The roads are still covered with snow and ice. Also as you say, we are fighting the "Murphy" gremlins re getting Stage 1 into high volume production. And as I keep saying, Stage 2 is close enough to the "edge" that we have to make sure we do it right!

regarding stage 2: sorry if this has been covered-

But how will the new maps get into stage 1 ecu piggybacks- can we flash it ourselves with a PC, do we have to send you guys back the ECU add on? Also will there be an additional cost- or if we just buy the stage 2 downpipe and cat will the ECU be a free upgrade?

Last question- this may just be speculation at this point- but do you think stage 2 will have any effect below 5000 rpm?

Originally posted by Genom
Now to figure out that little dip at 4K RPM.

What IS that little dip at 4K? Aux ports opening?

The Stage 1 unit will have to be returned for installation of the necessary hardware and software. Maurice hasn't said what the cost will be. Stage 2 will have an effect below 5000 RPM, but how much is not known (by me, anyway). That 4K dip is port changes, and we are working on ways to reduce it.

Kind of funny, but that little dip causes wheelspin with Stage 1 equipped cars. How? Well, the driver senses the dip, and presses further on the accellerator. Then the 5500 burst occurs while the pedal is depressed most of the way, causing the wheelspin :) . It's a genuine "gotcha".

Friend - What is involved in reducing that dip? Is it an adjustment of the fuel curve or something of the like? Will it be difficult to figure out and fix? Or is not a fix and just the nature of the beast? Since the 8 is so linearand smooth in it's acceleration, it's almost as if there is a slight hiccup at 4k which disturbs that feel. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.

Ahh, but that's a secret! Seriously, we've got a few ideas. We'll see what works. A little tweeking here, a little tweeking there. It's caused by a sudden change in the intake tract disturbing the air flow (we think).

So if you guys find out what the solution is for the dip how would someone obtain this updated mod? Or would they have to send their mod in for an update?

Thankx!

Great stories about the mod.. I enjoy reading about them.

Originally posted by RX-8 friend
And as I keep saying, Stage 2 is close enough to the "edge" that we have to make sure we do it right! David, could you elaborate a bit on this "on the edge" thing you keep mentioning? Maybe it's obvious to people who've been tuning cars for a while, but sorry, it's not to me.

What I really want to know is, is this going to make the car less reliable? Less apt to start? More apt to die? What specifically do you mean?

"On the edge" would mean closer to the performance limits that the engine can reach (in NA form) before risking breakdown. Things like detonation and possibly overheating are some of the possibilities that may result from going over that edge.

rxtreme has most of it. See, to get more performance, you run closer to perfect air/fuel, or you introduce more air and fuel, or you use fuel with more energy, or combinations. You can't run -at- perfect air/fuel because there are too many variables such as:
1. Fuel can vary in ability to resist detonation from tank to tank.
2. Outside temp. varies, thus changing air density and fuel density and the car's compensation devices may or may not be accurate enough.
3. Altitude changes affect air density - air density affects how much O2 there is to burn the fuel. Again, the car's sensor may or may not be accurate enough.
4. Air filter may get dirty, affecting intake pressure and hence volume.
5. Engine may build up deposits in the combustion chamber. This can raise compression ratio a bit, and/or introduce ignition sources (hot deposits) than can cause pre-ignition (before the spark). It doesn't take much to ignite a near perfect air/fuel.
6. Too many more, lots that I don't even know about or couldn't imagine.
Another technique is to use more spark advance. This has lots of effects, many of which I have no clue, but one is the compression of the mixture in the chamber rises sooner, and so more fuel is burned, and therefore more pressure is generated to push on the output shaft. Again, this must be controlled, because if it rises too soon, it tries to push the rotor backwards - not a good thing ;) . This introduces even more variables.

Sooo, to remain "safe" (stay away from pre-ignition and detonation) we (us and Mazda) have to use mixtures that have too much fuel and spark timing that is really safe. These mixtures resist igniting until they are lit up by a spark.

Stage 2 will take us closer to the "edge". The operator of the vehicle has to be careful not to introduce too many variables, so as not to go over the edge. Bad things would happen! Things the operator could do include changing the intake or exhaust. Changing the fuel. On a very hot day, climbing a mountain pass. I'm not saying any of these things would cause engine damage. I'm saying they would have a greater chance with Stage 2 than Stage 1 or stock.

As one who owns a 3rd gen modified RX-7, if I were to install stage 2, I would also install a J&S knock preventer system. Maybe even a wideband O2 readout of some kind. With Stage 2 you need to know what you're doing. It's not "plug and play" like Stage 1.

To answer your questions, the car will be just as reliable as long as you keep it on the safe side of air/fuel. It will start easier. It will have no effect on the engine dieing unless you run too lean. It will shorten the life a bit. Any time you extract more power from an engine it shortens its' life. It runs hotter for one thing.

One thing you didn't ask - "is it legal". I'm pretty sure stage 2 would not be. It -might- pass emissions tests. It would not pass visual or strict EPA2 rules. Stage 1 would probably pass emissions tests with no problem. Stage 1 may or may not meet EPA2 rules - probably not or Mazda would have used the fuel map we do, wouldn't they?

Hmmmm, ok, good answer. Sounds like at my elevation (5200 ft) I'd almost certainly have to go with the programming cable and software so as to tweak things and keep them in a safe range. Especially since I have both the Borla catback exhaust, will soon have the high flow/temp cat, and have the RE intake. I'd also need to be cognizent of when I'm climbing a mountain pass (we have a few of those here in Colorado ;)) and maybe turn the mod "off" before I do so. Hmmm.

How about a stage 1.5? :D

Don't be too impatient. ;) We have ideas to improve Stage 1 (make it better lower down in the RPM range). They would be available as upgrades to current Stage 1 units. Probably not for six months or so.

Technology never stands still (or we get run over :) .

As for Stage 2 high temp./flow cat., it's already in the tuning, as it's required. The stock cat. would melt/collapse I suspect. I was referring to cat. back systems "better" than the ones currently out there. You just know someone will try an open exhaust WOT run. That could tax the edges of reliability.

Originally posted by RX-8 friend
Don't be too impatient. ;) We have ideas to improve Stage 1 (make it better lower down in the RPM range). They would be available as upgrades to current Stage 1 units. Probably not for six months or so.

Technology never stands still (or we get run over :) .

Now THAT is good news! :D

RX8-- friend

Any clues as to how more power could be achieved at lower rpm using the stage 1 kit??????

michael

It's not a matter of a lot more power. The stock program runs about as much power as is available. Well, maybe a little bit more ;). It's the little hesitations we're really trying to get rid of.

Oh, and the Stage 2 prototype box works! Installed it last night. Now we have to work on the program to put into it (it has a very "mild" Stage 2 program right now). Maurice tried to test it on the road but the weather was not co-operating. It snowed again. So his test showed just how much wheelspin you can get. :)

Mine only really hesitates when the car is cold. It's pretty smooth after it warms up.

So is the bump at 4k rpm universal to all (or most) cars? Or is it individual car specific? I got the Stage 1, but have not install it yet. I'm waiting for the on/off switch. Would we all have to get the Stage 1 upgrade?

Some things:
As rx-friend said, spending a lot of time on filling Stage1 stuff right now.
Also, winter up here is a bitch.
You can't do this stuff completely on a dyno. You run on the road, with the wideband in play, measure, tweak, test, repeat..
At low temps, ice and snow on the roads, I have 2 choices:

1) Leave DSC on, get no power as the DSC cuts it.
2) Turn off the DSC, go sideways most of the time.

Went on a bit of a run last night.
Daytime high had gone a few degrees above freezing. It was then night, below freezing, tiny bit of freshpowder snow falling. Maybe 1/4" of it on the ground.

I left a light with a lady next to me in a Chevy.
I started gentle to avoid just spinning my tires.
DSC was off.
I then rolled on harder late in 2nd gear.

I passed her on my 2nd-3rd gear shift.
I was going almost perfectly sideways.
I looked out the windshield at her face.
She looked back at me.

You should have seen her expression!

There actually is no "bump" at 4K. what there is can be described as a lack of "bump". At 4,000 we start to gain a bit. At 4200 we are up about 5HP over stock. It then falls off and at 4500 to 4900 we are pretty well exactly back to stock.
Then it hits hard and starts to take off. We gain about 5hp again at 5,200, then it comes up really fast, bringing us up to 22HP over stock within 400rpm at 5,600.

We kept the original mapping in the 3 to 4 k range pretty well stock. It is already pretty lean, and this is where your rpm is on the highway. We are revisiting that, along with the 3 dips where the intake tracts change over to try and smooth them.
At 3,750 the 2nd intake opens, and we worked hard to smooth out that dip. Problem is that at 4,500 the extra shot of fuel puts some latency in, and to get back to lean takes a moment, and in low gears, full throttle you are already at 5,000 before we can catch up. With fuel there is a certain amount of lag or latency on any larger adjustment. In low gears you gain a lot of rpm before your map change has a noticeable effect.
In 4th gear it is much smoother, with almost no noticeable dip.
For those who are already running Stage1, try that for yourselves in 4th or 5th.
I can bring the "dip" up a bit higher, thenm we lose about 6HP at that magical 5,500 spot.
It''s a choice. Personally I prefer the 5,500 punch.
Below that you are in the rpm range that does not matter. Less than WOT. In 1st you are clutch slipping and tire spinning real quick.
In 2nd and on igher your shift point brings you right back into above the dip rpm, so what difference does it make?


I don't think we can do much better than that with fuel only. It will take a bit of advance as well. Ignition timing effects are much more rapid in effect. Lower latency of response.

Back to the road testing scenario..

Anyway, we can make a Stage2, with a bit more aggressive fuel/air map, and a gentle bit of ignition advance, which would be suitable for road use on 91 octane of higher.

It would put you at about +35hp (rear wheels).
Peak A/F at around 13.6:1. 7 degress of peak advance increment over stock.
Pretty safe stuff on good fuel. 91 or higher octane.
Pass on the cheapy no-name stuff please!

Add full exhaust (cat-back and midpipe with low restriction high temp cat) and you can get this up to around +45hp. That is free horsepower (other than buying hte parts of course!)
Do an intake if you really want, but i stil lthink it is a waste of money. Just "sounds cool".

But I do not want to send these out to the public, pre-loaded, until we get some more time in on smoothing it, and some testing done at sea level at higher air density.

In the Stage1 tune we really have a big margin of error. In Stage2 it will be much less, and I am taking time on it, and being cautious.

We will also be selling the Stage2 with the programming port accessible, and offer the tuning software kit as an option.

That way, (ASSUMING YOU OWN A WIDEBAND SENSOR and LOGGER!!!!!!) you can tune it up and see how close to the edge your balls will allow.

Frankly that is not aimed at the people I see posting here.
Don't take it wrong, but can you afford to say "Whoops, guessI should have backed off earlier" ??

Remember that video of the kid with the 350Z ?
Maybe not as spectacular, but the same result can happen with too lean/too much advance.

The tuneable option is for those who actually have the tools, the skills and the deep enough pockets for the risk management.

Racers.

Also, after about a gain of around 50HP, I wonder when clutches, transmissions, diffs, and so on are going to start going ballistic.
Remember, we are already at a 30% gain in rear wheel power at that point..

A good comparison on what this means is like going in some car from the 4 cylinder to the 6 cylinder option. Most of those have a pretty beefed up powertrain to go with it.

Anyway, at about 50HP, we are at the end of the run for naturally aspirated power gains on a stock Renesis.
From here on in we need engine porting, matching header, and time to scrap that cool multiport intake manifold.

Or go to boost.

Great write up Maurice!!! Thanks, as always, for your time and effort!!

I have a question concerning the Stage 2. You mentioned - "Anyway, we can make a Stage2, with a bit more aggressive fuel/air map, and a gentle bit of ignition advance, which would be suitable for road use on 91 octane of higher." - "It would put you at about +35hp (rear wheels). Peak A/F at around 13.6:1. 7 degress of peak advance increment over stock.
Pretty safe stuff on good fuel. 91 or higher octane."

Does this mean we could use the Stage 2 in every day driving like we can with the Stage 1 and it not harm the factory cat.? If that's the case I'll take one!!! :D

Rx-8 Friend - question,

In another thread a couple of weeks ago you mentioned that you thought the stage 1 kit leans out idle a little bit. According to an e-mail that I got from Maurice, the maps are only altered for WOT (>85%) conditions which would mean that idle was not messed with. Could you clarify?

Thanks,
Scott.

Does this mean we could use the Stage 2 in every day driving like we can with the Stage 1 and it not harm the factory cat.? If that's the case I'll take one!!!

CZ,
I guess the better question to ask is this - can we run Stage 2 without decreasing the cat life to mere days, weeks or months?

Thanks for your most excellent post.

I can not tell you exactly how long the cat would survive.
That would require destructive testing.
Would you care to volunteer your cat for this?

Seriously speaking as temperature rises, cat life will drop quickly.
When Random Tech first equipped and RX-8 with one of their high temp cats, it started to fail after a couple of months.
They subsequently went to one of a larger diameter, which dissipates the heat more evenly and over a larger area.

I have a freind who has run one for over 3 months so far with no problems.

The rotary, and especially the Renesis, has a very high exhaust gas temperature.

Part of the reason the stock cat costs so much is due to this.

If a cat only cost about $100 it would not be such a big deal, but at around $1,500 for the stock one, and the Random at about $300.

As Dave at Random said to me last fall, and which recaps it quite nicely:

"Maurice-

Exhaust temperatures obviously play a role in determining converter life and durability, but the biggest issue is the amount of raw fuel in the exhaust system.
A converter typically operates at approximately 1200 degrees (F) and failures typically occur when core temperatures exceed 2000 degrees.
However, problems most typically occur when these temperatures are created within the converter itself. In instances where a faulty fuel injector or ignition problem allow unburned fuel to enter the exhaust system, the converter attempts to oxidize it and that's what "fuels" the extreme increase in temperature. Frankly, I'm not sure what the results would be if 1800-degree inert gas was passed through a converter. Problems should be minimal because in that case, the converter would act as a heat sink and dissipate the heat, as opposed to creating it.

The only way to find out for sure is to do some testing. Our metallic substrate converters have significantly higher flow capacity and much better heat dissipation than ceramic substrate converters so that would be my recommendation. We can supply you with universal style converters, or build direct fit models according to your preference. Let me know how you'd like
to proceed and we'll get something in the works."


Dave"

Further to the above we are actually fighting two different problems in a cat on the RX-8:
On a stock 8 the exhasut gases are very rich in fuel, and this fuel will burn in the cat, causing it to get very hot.

In a tuned 8 the temperatures happen before the cat, and the heat can also cause havoc.

Random have put a lot of time and effort into this, working with us to come up with a solution that will flow high volume, AND survive the two different conditions.
In early testing on a STOCK RX-8 we burned up one of their cats due to the first reason. Subsequently we found that an even larger cat allowed better heat distributuion, and this seems to survive.

Again, a quote from Dave:
"Relative to capacity, these converters have a higher flow than anything else available. However, we've found that a 2-1/2" diameter pipe is a restriction. These converters flow 582 cfm with 3" diameter inlet and outlet, but only 435 with 2-1/2" inlet/outlet. That may be more than adequate for the RX-8, considering there are two converters, but if you need more capacity, you'll have to increase pipe diameter.

Also, the air/fuel ratio isn't all that much of an issue, except that when it drops below about 11.5:1, there's an extremely high probability that some unburned fuel will pass through the engine. That's really the converter killer. Combusted fuel doesn't have enough unburned hydrocarbon content to create much of a problem, but at 10:1 or so, there is a fairly high hydrocarbon content. However, if a stock converter can survive this
environment, ours should as well.

Dave"

ok i am very confused now. maybe i've missed something. you just wrote:

On a stock 8 the exhasut gases are very rich in fuel, and this fuel will burn in the cat, causing it to get very hot

i have been believing for some time that this pig rich map we have stock was the result of tuning done for cat-longevity. dumping the fuel in to reduce the temp of the exhaust gases. now what i quoted is saying the unburned fuel gets burned in the cat causing higher temps and shortening cat life. care to explain?

Originally posted by zoom44
ok i am very confused now. maybe i've missed something. you just wrote:

On a stock 8 the exhasut gases are very rich in fuel, and this fuel will burn in the cat, causing it to get very hot

i have been believing for some time that this pig rich map we have stock was the result of tuning done for cat-longevity. dumping the fuel in to reduce the temp of the exhaust gases. now what i quoted is saying the unburned fuel gets burned in the cat causing higher temps and shortening cat life. care to explain? Yes, please. I was thinking the same thing.

I guess if both are right then it works like this: Increase fuel somewhat over stock to cool the cat, but if you keep increasing fuel then you end up with fuel being burnt in the cat and it heats the cat. It sounds like there's a difference between "unburned fuel" which will cause damage versus "combusted fuel" where even with a low A/F ratio (which causes partial combustion??) will act to cool down the cat? That's my take but I know nothing about all this.

I'll bet anything that the EPA regulation for CAT longevity is EGT based. Mazda was probably forced to lower the exhaust gas temps to within spec for the EPA. Richer fuel mixture as we know will do this...

Catch 22. So Mazda did it.....and we benefit even less than what I originally thought. The results of Mazda's "adjustments" are actually counter productive to the original goal of CAT longevity. Is this rich or what!?!......ok bad pun.

f@$%ing government in action. i hope that is not correct

The explanation is easy. The stock RX-8 does dump excess fuel through the cat. It does so WITHOUT O2 to burn it. You can see the result in the carbon muck that decorates the exhaust pipe. All a cat. does is promote the chemical joining of supplied O2 and HC, NOx, and CO (to H2O, N2, and CO2). What Dave is talking of is "normal" cat. operation, that is, lots of O2 to eliminate HC, NOx, and CO. Mazda is cheating to cool the cat. by not injecting enough O2, at the expense of excess HC (in an RPM range that EPA tests don't look at).

One possible way around the temp. problem is to move the cat. farther back in the exhaust system. This would increase the time before the cat. starts working, but the exhaust gas would be cooler. As Maurice stated, the cat. is heated by the exhaust gas and the fuel burning inside it. Lower one source by moving it further back, and lower the other with Stage 1. This would also apply to Stage 2, of course. We haven't gone this route, as the exhaust system is space constrained. Lots of design work might be needed.

I have graduated to the 'production version' of the 'Zoomer Mod, and just wanted to check in with an update....

During the testing phase, I was greatly impressed by the difference the mod made - for me it was 100% improvement in the power delivery, just what the car needed.

However, I worried that Canzoomer might 'back off' some of the "boost" to err on the safe side, and avoid any issues with heat / detonation.

I wanted to make sure that the settings I had in the prototype made it to the finished product.

I can tell you that the final tuning is every bit as awesome as anything from the tests!

Someone posted that it's hard to tell it's there unless you are in 2nd or 3rd - all I can say is, I can feel ALL the 'push' in ALL the gears..... In 6th, the push comes on nice and strong at 107 mph......(roughly 107, I was too busy to take good notes!)

I am going to get in SO much trouble when spring comes to these parts!

S

Originally posted by RX-8 friend
One possible way around the temp. problem is to move the cat. farther back in the exhaust system.

thanks for that explanation. but that suggestion i quoted won't work for our merry freinds in california. the cat is as close as it is in the first place because of the requirement in cali that says the cat needs to reach operating temp in 5 minutes.

like i said f@$%ing government at work again. bastards.

O.K., forgot to mention in my last post - wanted to put the 'cost-per-horse' in perspective.

I was reading the Porsche options for the new convertible 911, there is a mod option for the turbo on the list that adds about 30hp,

the cost is $18000.

S

Yeah, stealling our hp and gas mileage all to save a stupid cat that I would replace at 30k miles if I could have the first two things back.

oh and did I mention the enviromental impact.

Originally posted by zoom44
ok i am very confused now. maybe i've missed something. you just wrote:

On a stock 8 the exhasut gases are very rich in fuel, and this fuel will burn in the cat, causing it to get very hot

i have been believing for some time that this pig rich map we have stock was the result of tuning done for cat-longevity. dumping the fuel in to reduce the temp of the exhaust gases. now what i quoted is saying the unburned fuel gets burned in the cat causing higher temps and shortening cat life. care to explain?
Sure!
Like many things it is a matter of what degree.
If there is a bit too much fuel the cat burns it, getting hotter.
If there is WAY too much fuel, the ratio is wrong for proper combustion, and it burns incompletely, and passes a lot of the fuel through the cat unburned.

Basically too much gas and not enough oxygen will quench it.
If we run the engine really lean the gas temps start to rise, in the header output, BEFORE the cat. This will strip the coatings off the cat, as it comes in hot, gets even hotter in the mid-cat combustion.

So, in steps:
Very lean mixture: Gases going into the cat are very hot, what fuel is left gets burned in the cat, making it too hot. Input gas temps around 1,700F to 1,850F. What a Stage2 tune does.
A high temp cat can survive this as long as it is big enough to dissipate the heat.

Moderate mildly tuned mixture: Gases come in a bit cooler, residual fuel burns in cat, suitable temps for cat operation and survival. But still, hot enough that cat life will pass the 50,000 mile mark, but maybe not much more. Input gas temps around 1,400F to 1,650F. Similar to JSPEC and what a Stage1 tune does.

Too rich mixture, lots of gas gets burned in cat, input temps are relatively low, and it is rich, it has enough O2 to burn most of the fuel, and the temperature inside the cat rises very high.
Cat lasts a fairly short time as it is running too hot.
Input gas temps around 1,300F to 1,450F. What we want to avoid at all costs, as it will eat any cat.

Pig rich mixture but as input temps are low, and it is so rich, it runs out of O2 before it burns all the fuel. Cat lasts a long time, as it is getting quenched by all the fuel. Makes lots of soot. Telltale sign is lots of carbon on the tailpipes. What Mazda did to meet EPA2. AS there is tons of fuel available the internal "burn" in the cat heats it up quickly, then as temps rise it runs out of O2. Helps the cat get up to full operating temperature quickly.
However the price we pay is a large fuel consumption, carbon not completely burned resulting in plug fouling, flooding, and sooty exhaust.

Originally posted by 93rdcurrent
Yeah, stealling our hp and gas mileage all to save a stupid cat that I would replace at 30k miles if I could have the first two things back.

oh and did I mention the enviromental impact.
It, like many things, is a trade off.
EPA wants to cut down on CO and Nitrous products as they are most poisonous.
In return we burn more fuel, make way more pounds of carbon output, pollute a lot more, but with more harmless by products.

Either way, the days of the internal combustion gas engine are numbered.

Of course it is all a total waste of fricking time.
People in China are starting to buy cars in increasing numbers now. Give them 20 years at this progrssion, and you could park all the cars in N. America, and still be making more pollution.

Know why a lot of business ( and your jobs) are going to China?
Sure, labour is cheap, but that does not last so long.
But their environmental laws are almost non-existant.
It's a lot cheaper to do business when you can pollute at will.

With Stage2 I am pushing people towards using a cat, even if it is not as clean output as the stock one, it is stil better than nothing.
It is also a lot easier to use a cat, rather than trying to make the car happy with an O2 fooler circuit.

We all have to breathe this crap.

when will your stage 2 be ready, ill be the first to buy it .iam waiting and waiting patiently ok not that patient :D 45 + hps thats sound like a killer mod.

Originally posted by Xavier296
I do want to hang with EVOS, and I hope Stage 2 can help me out with that.

you bought the wrong car.

Originally posted by StealthTL
O.K., forgot to mention in my last post - wanted to put the 'cost-per-horse' in perspective.

I was reading the Porsche options for the new convertible 911, there is a mod option for the turbo on the list that adds about 30hp,

the cost is $18000.

S

No kidding, This is a good bang to the buck. I have friends who pay alot more for less horses as well. Even if u shouldln't be having to get these horses back. :p

Originally posted by zerobanger
you bought the wrong car.

+45 hp should put you closer to the EVO's and STI's... but not there yet. If u assume 15% driveline loss and that the 238hp stock value is correct, +45 rwhp would put you at about 290hp at the crank.

On a light car such as the 8, that would make you faster than the 350z's but just shy of the speed of the STI/EVO crowd.

thats pretty good imho.

neil

Originally posted by wolfbeast
+45 hp should put you closer to the EVO's and STI's... but not there yet. If u assume 15% driveline loss and that the 238hp stock value is correct, +45 rwhp would put you at about 290hp at the crank.

On a light car such as the 8, that would make you faster than the 350z's but just shy of the speed of the STI/EVO crowd.

thats pretty good imho.

neil

LOL dude you are smoking crack. Plain and simple. First off the 238 HP has to be within an industry standard 5 pct. My guess is the engine is putting out 226 HP, mazda wants to make the car look as good as possible. But just for kicks and giggles lets assume 238 is smack dab on. 238 HP is not to the wheels take the 238 * .85 and you get roughly 202. Its ok that most of us dyno around 175 to the wheels, I'll give you some slack on that. So take your 200 rwhp and add 45, you get 245 RWHP and still very little torque.

Now consider that SCC got 12.75 and 12.79 among other times for an average of 13.1 for the STI and an AVERAGE of 13.4 for the EVO. Consider that a 3rd gen Rx-7 which weighs 200 lbs less has 225 RWHP (255 to the flywheel) and 217 lbs tq and STILL is not as fast in STOCK form as an EVO or STI, you get the picture. And this doesn't even count exhaust and mods on the STI and evo.

45 or 55 RWHP from stage II sounds fun as hell to me, but your still not going to beat an EVO or STI unless the driver sucks.

Again this is a bang for the buck, How much does an STI cost and u can't even buy an evo where i'm at. I will also be being beaten by a STI or EVO because i will have three girls in my ride.:)

thanks Maurice.

i didnt say you could beat an STI or EVO with 45+rwhp. I said that you would be closer in performance. Obviously the STI/EVO is still faster and with mods its no contest.

However, with that extra power, you take the RX8 out of the class of IS300/Honda accord coupe/Audi TT performance and into the performance range of real sports cars. 0-60 of 5.4 seconds or less.

As far as the HP numbers, i have seen dynos on this forum of RX8s with 196hp. That is pretty close to the 202hp number with 15% driveline loss. However... lets take u're number of 225 crank hp. That is 192 rwhp + 45 = 237 rwhp stage 2. That is 278hp at the crank with stage 2. Arguably, the actual number would probably vary between 278 and 290.

In my opinion, the stock rx8 is slow. Its a blast to drive, but u cant argue with quarter mile and 0-60 times. But thats not the reason I bought it. However, with stage 2 it makes the car able to beat 95% of the cars out there. Still not able to beat the STI or EVO, but at least i wont hafta worry about RSX or accords or G35s... ect...

neil

Originally posted by CanZoomer JR
Again this is a bang for the buck, How much does an STI cost and u can't even buy an evo where i'm at. I will also be being beaten by a STI or EVO because i will have three girls in my ride.:)

LOL dude, Im not talking about that. Im talking about straight line speed. Ofcourse the 8 is the better car.

Originally posted by CanZoomer JR
Again this is a bang for the buck, How much does an STI cost and u can't even buy an evo where i'm at. I will also be being beaten by a STI or EVO because i will have three girls in my ride.:)

That equates to about 3 times the bang for the buck..... :cool:

Good point CZ jr. I am married so we won't talk about the girls. Any way my understanding of CZ's hp rating is that it is at the rear wheels not at the crank so I guess both of you need to lay off the crack and start thinking about this in different terms.

I don't think we've seen any dyno runs on the stage II yet so I will use my understanding of the stage I. It puts down 25 hp at the rear wheels, That gives us an average between 29-32 crank hp. (someone may need to check my math). Now lets use this same calculation for 45 rear wheel hp (please correct me if I'm wrong about the hp rating on Stage II) at that comes to 52-57 hp at the crank. So in actuality you are getting quite a hp gain. And I would think this is closer to the truth if you were going to "run the car closer to the edge."

just add the stage one Kit and you will easily be in the 0-60 range of 5.7-6.1 secs. With the extra 25hp, it will surprise alot of guys.
Remember, R&T got 5.9 secs with the old maps, and this kit gets us back up there and maybe then some, so it will run very nice.
That is plenty fast for me. But the 8 was not designed to run low 5secs. It still amazes me how many people on here still focus on the 0-60? The 8 is no slouch, but not the fastest. But with a simple mod, it becomes much more fun. I just picked mine up (finally) about 2hrs ago, and stopped at a detail shop to get a few things done. Had 2 guys come out and gawk over the car. Don't think that would happen in an EVO, and I still get very good performance to boot !
Once I get the stage 1 put in, I have a friend that has the G35C, and we will run both cars. I drove his, and it feels no faster in the top end than the 8? More torque down low, but thats all. I will bet that the 8 with the extra 25hp will pull a faster 0-60 time and 1/4 time than his Coupe.

These threads are getting as tiresome as the "Anti Detonation Device" on the other forum. Every answer leads to 5 new questions.

Well i guess to sum up this thread we should just say, Stage 1 Good. :)

Originally posted by zoom44
thanks Maurice.
Canzoomer Jr. is my son Graham, btw..

As for the question of EVOs and STi's versus an rx-8:
They are faster, and that is deu to an engine designed for turbo and boost.
Look at thepower "under the curve" however.
The peak power is across a much narrower range than the Renesis.
Add some decent tuning, and maybe an improved exhasut and you can give them a good run.
As for price, I hear that STi's can be picked up in the US for about $28K nowadays, so these are cheaper.
Considering the finish and the amenities, this does not surpise me. The RX-8 is a much nicer automobile.. And a hell of a lot more comfortable one to drive.

canzoomer when will your stage 2 be ready month, time frame please,second question i know i read you will need a high flow cat. will you supply this pruduct or is somone supplying this allready. iam waiting for the racing beat exaust to see what they have as hp numbers i know i read that stage 2 works well with two types of exhaust you have mention. our will it work the same with all of them???

Originally posted by canzoomer
Canzoomer Jr. is my son Graham, btw..



I CAN TELL!! sheesh like father like son! to reiterate: when i saind thanks maurice i was not reponding to the post from graham i was thanking you for the explanation you gave in response to the question i asked about the cat situation. you guys are obviously related because he sent me a PM also stating that he was not you. :D :p i can see where he would not like to be confused with some old guy.:p

We have been jointly working with Random Technologies in Atlanta on the cat and midpipe matters.

I am pleased to announce that we will have stainless steel midpipes for sale, equipped with the Random high flow cat, by the end of this month.

We can arrange drop-shipment from Atlanta to points in the USA.
Or from our location here in Canada.

Options available:
2.5" (same as stock) or 3" diameter.
Bolt-in, with all flanges.
Comes with Random Tech cat, flanged in place.
Optional flanged pipe section to allow removal of the cat for racing uses.
Optional resonator muffler to help reduce noice. This is a flow-through unit, made by Magnaflow.
Optional mount plate for 3" to use with Borla or Greddy cat-back exhausts. While both use 3" tube, they narrow down to 2.5" flange to mate with stock exhaust. With this plate one may have the cat-back modified to mate with 3" mid-pipe. The part supplied is the flange, you would still need to cut off the original flange and have this one TIG welded in it's place. Most competent well-equipped exhaust/muffler shops can do this for you.

Pipe is equipped with the necessary bungs for installing the O2 sensors. This takes car of the problems caused by not using the sensors, and the resulting check engine lights that would occur running with no cat.

Prices:
CZ-MidP-1 CZ-MidP Exhaust mid-pipe, no cat, no resonator, stainless steel. Available in 2.5" or 3" $370.00

CZ-MidP-2 CZ-MidP Exhaust mid-pipe, c/w Random Tech High Flow cat, no resonator, stainless steel. Available in 2.5" or 3" $449.00

CZ-MidP-3 CZ-MidP Exhaust mid-pipe, c/w Magnaflow Resonator, stainless steel. Available in 2.5" or 3" $498.00

CZ-MidP-4 CZ-MidP Exhaust mid-pipe, c/w Random High Flow cat, Magnaflow Resonator, stainless steel. Available in 2.5" or 3" $625.00

CZ-adaptor flange-3" 3" exhaust flange, for adapting 2.5" inlet cat-back to 3" midpipe. Welding required on installation. $27.00

Package Deal of Stage2 AND midpipe:

CZ-Stage2/MIDP4 CZ-2 Stage2 Fuel/Air/Ignition controller kit, AND MIDPIPE MIDP4, with High Temp Cat, Resonator Muffler (off road use only) $1,225.00

When Stage2?
Looking to start shipping at the end of this month (March 1st)

would there be any harm or benefit to using say MidP-2 or MidP-4 with a cat back and a CZStage1?

Nope, you'd just have a Stage 1 RX-8 with a more freely flowing exhaust. ;)

Maurice,

What are you going to charge for the Stage1 to Stage2 upgrade?

Originally posted by Speed Racer
Maurice,

What are you going to charge for the Stage1 to Stage2 upgrade? As I recall, it's $250-$300 or so.

We are going to charge the difference in cost.

$150 ( plus freight)

Stage 1 cost is now $600
Stage 2 is $750
Programming cable and software: $150

Yes, now you can tune your own map.
And still turn it off for emissions tests and comparison purposes.

Originally posted by Omicron
Nope, you'd just have a Stage 1 RX-8 with a more freely flowing exhaust. ;)
Exactly.
You will also gain more performnce from your added cat-back, etc.

When you ONLY install a cat back, you gain quite little, as the limiting factor is the over-rich fuel/air maps on stock ECU settings.
Tests done with a wide open straightpipe produced only a 5HP gain.

With the Stage1 you gain more with a cat-back as it is tuned better for it.

With the mid-pipe you gain even more as the restriction of the stock cat is reduced with the Random Tech cat.

And if you opt for the 3" pipe version it is a bit more work, but improves it slightly more.

Performance differences between the 2.5" and 3" are very small.
On the other hand, if you choose to install a turbo or supercharger kit later, or if you have your engine ported, it will make quite a big difference.

Maurice
Have you sent your bag of tricks downunder ???

Are they addressed to phill or to me????

Looking forward to get the Australian stage1 / 2 tune done to suit our MAFS.
cheers
michael

Can you only tune your own maps with Stage II? Or does this work with stage I also?
Originally posted by canzoomer
We are going to charge the difference in cost.

$150 ( plus freight)

Stage 1 cost is now $600
Stage 2 is $750
Programming cable and software: $150

Yes, now you can tune your own map.
And still turn it off for emissions tests and comparison purposes.

Stage 2 only.

[i]Package Deal of Stage2 AND midpipe:

CZ-Stage2/MIDP4 CZ-2 Stage2 Fuel/Air/Ignition controller kit, AND MIDPIPE MIDP4, with High Temp Cat, Resonator Muffler (off road use only) $1,225.00
[/B]

If I've followed this OK, any Stage 2 package is still "off road use only" no matter the combination of Cat, muffler & exhaust in the package. So those of us who are strictly "on road" should stop at Stage 1, perhaps with the lower RPM reflash, and an aftermarket Cat-back exhaust. Unless the next idea will be a Stage 1.5 kit .....

Maurice...

I read earlier that stage II was on the border as far as timing goes. I read that it wasn't 100 pct safe in terms of keeping the car from detonating. Has this issue been solved? If I bought stage II instead of stage I and run 91 octain is that safe?

Thanks, Im just trying to figure this out :)

Originally posted by shebam
If I've followed this OK, any Stage 2 package is still "off road use only" no matter the combination of Cat, muffler & exhaust in the package. So those of us who are strictly "on road" should stop at Stage 1, perhaps with the lower RPM reflash, and an aftermarket Cat-back exhaust. Unless the next idea will be a Stage 1.5 kit .....

That's about how I get it... although many "on road" only people will go to Stage 2, if you have to worry about emissions testing, then Stage 1 is your best bet.

Stage 1.5.... Stage 1 ECU (with low rpm reprogram) and the new cat?


Canzoomer... if you go the above... Stage 1 with the new cat, will the 02 fooler still be necessary? Are your chances of passing any inspection nil, even if you switch off stage 1?

Yeah, I noticed the lack of 02 fooler in the cat list too... is it no longer needed?

Yeah, I noticed the lack of 02 fooler in the cat list too... is it no longer needed?

Yeah, I noticed the lack of 02 fooler in the cat list too... is it no longer needed?

At least he can delete posts.

Originally posted by Omicron
Yeah, I noticed the lack of 02 fooler in the cat list too... is it no longer needed?
OK, OK, i get the message!! Yeesh!

We are proud to annouce that testing of exhaust and cats is now finished, with a lot of the credit to got to Dave at Random Tech.

Random are manufacturing the mid-pipe units for us and we will have them shipping at month end.

The Mid-pipe Replacement Unit is stainless steel, available in 2.5" or 3" pipe size.
Includes Random Tech high flow/high temp cat.
Optional flow-through resonator muffler.

Cat is mounted on bolt flanges, so may be removed for racing purposes. In this case an optional short flanged pipe takes it's place.
For 3" applications we are offering an extra 3" pipe flange plate to allow the cat-back to be modified to mate to 3"
Stock, Borla, Greddy and other cat-back units come with a mating flange for the mid-pipe sized to join with the stock 2.5" mid-pipe.
Cat back units like this usually utilize 3" pipe, however they have to attach to a stock 2.5"mid-pipe. This flange allows on to correct that matter.

Use of the flange requires the original one to be cut off of the cat-back, and the new one to be TIG welded in it's place. This can be done by most competent exhaust shops.

The 3" offers little benefit on an RX-8 unless one is going to add a turbo or supercharger kit later on, where the added flow capacity would be beneficial.
It is only a provision for this future application.

The resonator is recommended for maitaining a reaasonable sound level. For racing use where sound reduction is not a factor, it can be considered optional.

And now for your answer, Omicron:
With the use of the Random Tech cat, the stock O2 sensors may be used, and no check engine light results.
The flow resistance of the Random unit is low enough that almost no power loss is experienced ( 2HP versus no cat at all).
As reliable o2 fooler for the RX-8 are a complicated and expensive business, we have chosen this as the best path to accomplish the goal.

The Random cat would probably not pass a full, modern exhaust emissions test for EPA2 level standards, as it will not heat up to full operating temperatures reliably within the required 5 minutes.
If you can manage to get by that stipulation it would likely pass, or come close.
In either case replacing the stock cat is not legal for street use as mandated by the regulations, which allow a cat to be replaced only if the original is destroyed, lost, or similar.

In either case replacing the stock cat is not legal for street use as mandated by the regulations, which allow a cat to be replaced only if the original is destroyed, lost, or similar.

... yep just like a when you're working screwdriver in the rubber hangers and opps! Looks like Random Technologies' high temp/high flow cat is needed... :D

Regarding the epa test, in New York I have never seen any emissions test that starts your engine cold. As long as you kept the engine running for a bit before they drove it in for the emissions test, woulnt the cat already be heated and pass?

Any word on when a dyno will be done on stage 2- I haven't received my stage 1 order yet and I am wondering if I should just have the order switched over to stage 2? I would love to see the dyno tests though, as I would llike to see if there is any benefit lower in the RPM range than stage 1.

Thanks in advance.

Originally posted by emailists
Regarding the epa test, in New York I have never seen any emissions test that starts your engine cold.

Look at it this way -- if you leave the car and they drive it in and turn it off before the test, it ain't gonna restart anyway. :)

I think the primary difference is this...

The EPA2 test is something *manufacturers* must pass. It only applies to getting new cars certified.

It bears no relationship to the emissions testing that states do to register your car.

If I'm wrong, please correct me, but the emissions tests the states do is not the same (nor is as stringent) as the EPA2 tests.

New York
http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/vehsafe.htm#einspect

California
http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/stdpage.asp?Body=/smogcheck/default.htm

Arizona
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/legtext/42leg/2r/bills/hb2190p.htm

New Jersey
http://www.state.nj.us/mvc/cleanair/index.html

Texas
http://www.dot.state.tx.us/VTR/vtrreginfo.htm?pg=faq

Florida
http://www.vidaamericana.com/english/carreg.html
http://www.hsmv.state.fl.us/dmv/faqmotor.html

And many more!