I am currently driving an M-Edition MX6, 1996. It's a pretty nice car, but I've been pouring money into it since last summer to the tune of $6,000 in repairs.

Sooo, I go out and test drive some cars. I drove the 350Z, the RX-8, the S2000, and a 2001 Chevy C5 Corvette. The vette, of course, was the fastest of them all, but I equated it to driving a boat with warp drive.

The S2000 was simply okay. I honestly found it somewhat slugging in the mid RPMS and overpriced. THe cockpit was stupidly cramped.

The 350Z was very very nice, but the ride was somewhat rough and the car felt overly heavy to me.

The RX-8, however, I fell in love with. Right there. I wanted to buy it that day, but didn't have my finances in order to do so.

Now, I arrive at my point (to your certain relief). I don't know if I WANT to get it. Why, you ask? Well I'll tell you a couple reasons:

1) I will drive this as my primary vehicle. That means commuting with traffic lights and slow driving and traffic backups. I don't want to have this be some sort of justification for the 10-14 mpg ratings I've been seeing on these boards. That's insane. Hummers get milage like that.

2) I absolutely will NOT spend $30k on a car that will simply DIE if you don't take 10 minutes to warm it up before shut down. That's stupid. No other word or justification is required. I will not be intimidated or scared to drive my car short distances or afraid of embarassment with passengers because my car suddenly won't start and requires towing to the dealer. A brand new car that requires towing out of your lot to a dealer if you accidentally forget to warm it before shut down. So what if it only happens rarely? ONCE is way to often. The inconvenience, frustration, and total lack of reliability associated with such an event would likely force me to sell the car outright!

Above all, I really want to be consoled. I want a knowledgable person to tell me it is a statistical improbability that it will happen, on the order of <1% chance. I need someone to tell me that even if it DID flood, I'd have a <1% chance that it needs to go to the dealer. I need someone to tell me that the car, driven casually (ie not flooring it to 9k RPM from every light) can maintain the posted EPA mpg of 18/23.

Can someone tell me this?

I called Mazda with a few issues to discuss:

1) The flooding
2) The ECM adjustment prior to launch resulting in fewer posted HP and lowered mpg.
3) Complaints about extremely low mpg.


"Frank" was extremely professional and courteous. He was patient and listened to my concerns and answered them the best he could. I didn't like everything I heard, but here were the responses:

1) Flooding is caused by people not driving the car correctly. People seem to not want to follow instructions provided to them on how to properly drive and car for their vehicle. The RX-8 is a unique machine that requires additional care due to it's exotic nature. There is a very reasonable and simple set of steps to avoid the problem. (He then proceeded to read me the list). The flooding is covered by warranty should it occur. In addition, he did acknowledge that due to complaints, Mazda tech was working on a fix right now (albeit with no ETA), and would push that fix to dealers as a Tech Service Bulletin, not a recall, in the near future. Repairs for this problem at your local dealer should be free, and if they are not, to call Mazda service directly.

2) The ECM adjustment. This was the most interesting one. Apparently, "Frank" had no knowledge of any such change to meet EPA standards. The HP discrepancy was the result of a simply typo from Japanese Engineering during the test/production phase overseas. He took my comments on the issue and referred to a local Mazda tech who replied that it was total BS and had no merit whatsoever.

3) "Frank" has had very few if any complaints about mpg, and they only came from people who for some reason believed that since the car was small, it should achieve 30+ mpg without actually reading the EPA average mpg ratings.

He also commented to make sure I knew that there was no spare tire in the car, just an emergency inflation kit, but a spare tire could be crammed in the trunk if you choose.


Soooo, an interesting series of responses. FYI.

1) Any car can flood. It doesn't seem excessive on this board. My friends mustang flooded last month he had to have it towed. None of my rotary cars have ever flooded.

2) This I dont know, something definately changed.

3) I get 17-19 CITY, on highway I average 25 MPG on a long trip (with cruise) my best ever was a 30.2 over a 95 mile stretch of road. No complaints here.

thanks for the info. hope it helps someone.

I can't guarantee you anything, as you have to make your own decisions, but I've got 9k miles on my 8, have never flooded, even when the car wasn't warmed up for 5 minutes, and I get decent gas mileage. And I believe the great majority of owners will agree. However, you always hear more about the bad than the good, so take it as you will.

All I hear are crickets.

Merging your threads, since they seem to be looking for the same type of response.

My experience at ~ 5,000 miles: The car has never flooded and I have found I can get within the EPA mileage if I keep the number of short trips to a minimum. If you say "I don't know if I WANT to get it" after driving it then it may not be the right car for you.

Originally posted by zerobanger
1) Any car can flood. It doesn't seem excessive on this board. My friends mustang flooded last month he had to have it towed. None of my rotary cars have ever flooded.

2) This I dont know, something definately changed.

3) I get 17-19 CITY, on highway I average 25 MPG on a long trip (with cruise) my best ever was a 30.2 over a 95 mile stretch of road. No complaints here.

thanks for the info. hope it helps someone.

You must have the average mileage and single-greatest mileage record.

Are you sure you're calculating the mileage the right way, that is, using amount of gas to fill up?

Where is your location? US? Where in the US? Are you doing anything special, like turning off the DSC? Is there something with the gas in your region?

That would be funny if Mazda picked your engine apart to see what made it so special and then, after reassembly, you could never get the original mileage again.

Originally posted by Llathos
I called Mazda with a few issues to discuss:

1) The flooding
2) The ECM adjustment prior to launch resulting in fewer posted HP and lowered mpg.
3) Complaints about extremely low mpg.




(1) horse manure. When mine flooded I'd received no warning in any Mazda material about running the engine 'til warm, nor been warned by any sales person.

(2) obvious baloney; truth has been referred to even by Mazda folks

(3) can Frank spell "EPA"? The 8 couldn't get 24 mpg going over a cliff

Not that we don't love it, of course. Let's just not insult anyone's intelligence and we should get along OK with Mazda.

not sure if merging keeps this one, or what. see my MPG in my sig.
flooding: the colder the engine, the shorter the running time before shutdown, the more likely to flood. Mine was backed down the ramp from the delivery truck-the tech who unloaded it, who quipped 'it's just a "another car"' before he got in it, killed it within 5 seconds of starting it after it rolled off the ramp. He started it back up - no problems. I was highly peeved that this moron stalled it, but happy it started - I've had 5 rotaries previously and knew it could be an issue. My opinion: I believe they sat in port for a couple weeks for more than just checking them out after shipping. Most of us had a couple 'campaigns' posted under our hoods. I read about mine at the dealer and it mentioned side (or rear) view mirror - whatever that meant. But I believe they modified the ECU for longer cat life after arrival here and simultaneously modified them at the production line. Shouldn't be an issue. If you liked it on the test drive, you should love living with it. Go for it!

Originally posted by ArXate
You must have the average mileage and single-greatest mileage record.

Are you sure you're calculating the mileage the right way, that is, using amount of gas to fill up?

Where is your location? US? Where in the US? Are you doing anything special, like turning off the DSC? Is there something with the gas in your region?

That would be funny if Mazda picked your engine apart to see what made it so special and then, after reassembly, you could never get the original mileage again.

yes Im sure I'm calculating it correct. that 30.2 MPG that I got 1 time I have never been able to repeat, but over a 220 Mile trip I got 26.2 MPG.

those #'s I quoted you are driving like an absolute granny using cruise control, driving very steady.

If I drive like a mad man I get 16-17 MPG.

I hate being lectured on my calculations, but I fill my tank up, reset my trip meter, drive the damn thing. when its time to fill up again I divide the # of miles on the trip meter by the # of gallons it took to completely fill it up.

later.

RX8 is an "acquired" taste for most people. People who own RX8's are typically previous rotary owners, or people who knows something about rotary design, that doesn't equate to piston engines. Some people buy the car because they simply love it and don't care about anything else. Some people buy the car because of the rotary uniqueness. But whatever the reason, people buy the RX-8 because they can live with the so called "flaws."

As the saying goes, "You can't have your cake and eat it too." If you don't like what the RX-8 has to offer and the "baggage" that comes with it, then don't buy it. Don't buy the car because what other people says and vice versa.

Ask yourself this question: Is liking the car enough reason for you to buy it?

Peace Out

Originally posted by Llathos
I called Mazda with a few issues to discuss:

1) The flooding
2) The ECM adjustment prior to launch resulting in fewer posted HP and lowered mpg.
3) Complaints about extremely low mpg.



1. I have over 10k miles and have not flooded it. I know a couple of times I was teaching my teenager how to drive a stick and she stalled it before it was warmed up. It always restarted but this was in the warmer temperatures. I would not attempt to teach someone to drive a stick with my car now without pre-warming it just to avoid the possibility of flooding. As far as warming it up, I've never let it sit for the five minutes the booklet says, I always drive around the block, in warmer weather it took 2-3 minutes and it was warm. With colder weather, I haven't had to move the car for a "short trip" yet, but it takes much longer to warm up when I'm driving (duh, it's below freezing outside), so it might be quicker to let it idle to warm (lack of wind). Overall, the warm up issue is a slight pain in the neck, but also gives me an excuse to have a little fun whenever I move the car.

2. Some people in the know have provided this reason for the delay. Mazda itself made some comment that comports with the stated reason but doesn't directly confirm all the details of the reason going around. Only Mazda knows for sure and they are not speaking much.

3. I usually get around 15 mpg, the tank is small, my commute is large, and I fill up 2-3 times a week, which is getting old. I have always gotten epa or better in all my other cars, but I drive the 8 differently, it's my first true sports car. I got over 20 on my only road trip with this car and I did drive somewhat spirited, so I think my 8 can obtain the stated mpg. That said, some owners have cars that will never come close to the epa mpg, and from what I read, Mazda has not been very helpfull.


Bottom line, am I keeping my 8? Would I buy it again. Yes! Yes! and Yes!, I'm thinking of starting a collection of 8s.

Originally posted by zerobanger
yes Im sure I'm calculating it correct. that 30.2 MPG that I got 1 time I have never been able to repeat, but over a 220 Mile trip I got 26.2 MPG.


Since two threads have been merged, I hadn't read the above when I made my "going over a cliff" comment, so was not meaning to impugn your veracity. Though I am tempted to ask: are you sure it wasn't coming down out of the Rockies with a tailwind?:)

(I've never broken 22 MPG in 6th-gear cruising on an interstate or 15 mpg commuting 9 miles in and out of D.C. -- and less if I drive the car the way I want to.)

This merging of threads is confusing, plus I don't know what to make of ArXate, some posts seem well thought out, but other posts are sooooo off base that I think (s)he should be banned. Only time will tell.

Originally posted by Llathos
Above all, I really want to be consoled. I want a knowledgable person to tell me it is a statistical improbability that it will happen, on the order of <1% chance. I need someone to tell me that even if it DID flood, I'd have a <1% chance that it needs to go to the dealer. I need someone to tell me that the car, driven casually (ie not flooring it to 9k RPM from every light) can maintain the posted EPA mpg of 18/23.

Can someone tell me this?

I had not seen this one either. Despite the fact that my car DID flood, DID have to be towed to a dealer and this DID occur 530 miles from home and almost strand me at the end of Thanksgiving; that it IS my daily driver and I DO rarely get more than 14 MPG commuting; AND it needs winter tires if you live in a cold climate; I would buy it all over again because it's a great car. I expect that's how most people on this Forum feel, even though they may disagree on how serious some of the issues are. There have been hints of unknown reliability of some "fix" or improvement coming (perhaps in the '05 model) re flooding but I wouldn't hold my breath re MPG. I would say chill out and buy it, but not based on hearing somebody at Mazda tell you what you want to hear.

1) The flooding
It is definately a strong possibility if you shut down cold. Mazda customer relations and the local dealer have verified it to me. The local dealer told me today they have had several towed in. I just made 3000 miles and have never flooded, but that is thanks only to the knowledge gained on this forum. It is definately an inconvenience (which I accept) but I have not heard of ANYONE on this forum flooding if they warmed up the car before shut down.

2) The ECM adjustment prior to launch resulting in fewer posted HP and lowered mpg.
no knowledge on that

3) Complaints about extremely low mpg.
I drive it conservatively most of the time, with an occasional burst of speed and high RPM. On the highway at about 75 MPH I have consistently gotten 20-22 MPG and in mixed city driving 15-16 MPG - all using mid-grade gasoline.

Yeah the post merge is a bit confusing, but oh well.

One post was to post questions/concerns, the other was to report the responses from Mazda, Corp.

Thanks for all of your responses. I do feel a bit better about it, but still. I'd hate to have the car and constantly worry about being stranded somewhere after "buying new". With new, you have certain expectations concerning reliability.

Without that reliability, what's the point?

I did test drive the vehicle twice, and adored it. Amazing road grip, comfortable driving, easy revving engine, but not obnoxious. Everything just felt "right".

I almost bought last Sun, but as I said, needed to organize finances. Now, I've really got cold feet (though starting to thaw a bit).

Here's a few more pointed questions:

1) Does anyone know what percentage of cars have the problem? Is it ALL cars due to a design flaw, or a manufacturing defect that only effects some?

2) How often, when it DOES flood, does it need to be towed in and serviced? Are the vast majority of flood recovered, or is the car automatically hosed when it happens?

3) What's the "minimum" distance or temp required to prevent the problem? Full warm temperature required, or just a registered value above full-cold (ie the needle moved)?

4) Has anyone kept metrics of what kind of % of customers have had this problem since they purchased the vehicle? Isn't it almost inevitable that SOMEONE like the wife or a valet will forget? Isn't that one time a tremendous pain in the ass that will involve tow trucks, dealers, maintenance personnel, warranty usage, loaners, etc etc. How can people be cool with this?

Thanks for humoring my paranoid questions. I just don't want to leave one maintenance money-hole of a car just to land myself in a cooler looking one.:(

Your questions aren't paranoid. They're the questions of someone wanting to know where his money is going.

I have 6,500 miles, and I have had no problems, and no flooding. The manual says that five minutes is what is needed to warm the car so it won't flood. That, in dead cold weather like 5 Farenheit, is just moving the needle on my car. I have shut it down there with no difficulties on restart. I have also shut the car down with only 2-3 minutes of warming when I have had to and had no problems restarting it. Most of the flooded cars seem to be shut downs within a minute, but that's just from reading posts. There is a restart procedure in the Owner's Manual which does NOT seem to be able to be relied on. Some people have been able to restart their cars that way others haven't. It is possible I think to pull the plugs, run the engine with the injection shut off, clean the plugs and restart that car yourself in your own driveway if necessary if you are at all handy, but again I haven't had to try it.

In short, the flooding thing is over bown. If you are reasonably sensible and let the car idle for five minutes, it shouldn't be an issue, and for most of us, it hasn't been an issue.

As for fuel mileage, some people do seem to have a real mechanical problem, but it seems to be a smaller number. Other people seem to have bad mileage from hard driving. I have never gotten under 18 MPG in city driving, and I've never done a highway trip, so I don't know about that. Again, I think that the mileage is what it is. 16-18 City 20-22 highway seems to be attainable, but if your expectation is for more then you might want to think about another car. Some people do seem to be able to exceed this, but they seem to be very exceptional.

Fundementally, I am not concerned about the reliability of the car. It's been working fine every morning for me. Some people have had trouble, but that is true for all cars, and remember that the internet brings all mechanical failures very close to home that you might not hear about in past cars or other cars where the owners are not so on-line.

Last, the things that are important to mention. I didn't get where you live, but anywhere with snow you MUST have snow tires. The car is very difficult to drive without them, and it will not suffice as a daily driver without them. I have four wheel snows, and the car handles very well in snow and ice. Also, I believe that the car should be gently broken in for the first thousand miles. I did that, and my car runs like a top, but others may disagree. I felt that that was important, and the manual does recommend 650 miles of gentle driving.

All the best.

After reading all these comments, and you are still have doubt, You better just purchase a different car.
There are already too many rx -8 owners here who are blinded by such buyers remorse, that they can't see they have a unique and fantastic car.

Thanks for all the positive reinforcement:) I'm glad to hear I wasn't the only one amazed by the vehicle.

I'm going to do it:) <closing eyes and crossing fingers!>

Good for you! Sometimes you just have to take that leap and go with your heart. :)

Hope it works out great for you, Llathos. I don't know what mileage you'll get, but does anyone expect EPA mileage on any vehicle? I'm sure if you read the Prius forum, a bunch of guys are grumbling, "I'm only getting 45 MPG! There should be a buy-back!"

And some poor version of ZeroBanger'll say he got 73MPG and a bunch of guys are jumping down his throat about is he sure he put gas in the TANK, and not in his pants pocket, and did he figure in Boyle's Law...

I've had to think hard about the 8, too. The draw is irresistible if you love driving, not just commuting. More practical, less expensive sporty-ish cars are everywhere, but it sounds as though you love that extra something. Aint it a bit(#?

Resistance is futile... :D

Originally posted by red_rx8_red_int
This merging of threads is confusing, plus I don't know what to make of ArXate, some posts seem well thought out, but other posts are sooooo off base that I think (s)he should be banned. Only time will tell.

Are you hoping I get banned?

Originally posted by zerobanger
yes Im sure I'm calculating it correct. that 30.2 MPG that I got 1 time I have never been able to repeat, but over a 220 Mile trip I got 26.2 MPG.

those #'s I quoted you are driving like an absolute granny using cruise control, driving very steady.

If I drive like a mad man I get 16-17 MPG.

I hate being lectured on my calculations, but I fill my tank up, reset my trip meter, drive the damn thing. when its time to fill up again I divide the # of miles on the trip meter by the # of gallons it took to completely fill it up.

later.

We need more information!!!! What region of the US are you in? What brand of gas? What octane? DSC off? Did you draft behind a truck? Come on!!!!!

Later.

...0931u5oifjeqlvdnva...

I live in Los Angeles. I commute 50 miles a day to work and school. 10 of the 50 miles I put in each day are done on busy streets. Half the time I'm sitting in slow or dead stop traffic.
I get 240-260 miles per 13-13.5 gallon fillup. Thats 18.46 ~ 20.00mpg for combined street/highway driving, using 91 octane Unocal76 gasoline, DSC on, A/C off, radio on, nav on, sunroof open.

Driving the same route with equal aggressiveness (or lack of) resulted in roughly 27mpg in an Integra LS, 16mpg in an RX-7 Turbo II, 18mpg in a Tacoma V6, 31mpg with a Civic DX, and 42mpg with a CBR600F4. All these vehicles have had a flood or two in their time, btw.

On the other hand, if you go climbing hills, racing, idling your car with a/c and reading a book, revving to 9k in low gear, etc.. don't expect gas mileage to be half that.

The RX-8 owner's manual cautions to avoid unnecessarily long warmups - start driving after the rpm drops by itself. This computer-controlled accelerated idle warmup process takes about 2 minutes after the car has been sitting in the cold for around 5 hours or so.

Running the car at this point and shutting it down before the engine reaches normal operating temperature increases your chances of flooding. It's not so hard to avoid doing this, just like it's not so hard to get an oil change every 3000 miles. It's also good practice to check your oil level every 1000 miles.

These rules don't apply specfically to rotaries, mind you.

People think they can get away with treating their cars like their &!@^# just because it's new, and then complain when their engine dies out on them or springs a leak or starts running crappy. Serves them right, in my opinion.

As far as flooding goes (we're going to beat this one to death!) if you own a 6 speed, there is absolutely NO EXCUSE what so ever to have it towed due to being flooded. Push it and pop the damn clutch! Next to be sure that this never happens again, everytime you start the car, floor it while you crank it. Let it turn over a couple of times and then take your foot off. This initally stopped fuel flow to the engine until it was spinning at full speed and also gave time for any residual fuel to leave the engine. I don't care who says what or if the manual says that this is a nonflood procedure only. I forgot who it was on this forum but he absolutely insisted that this not be done unless the engine was already flooded. It's a little late then. I don't care what Mazda wrote in the owners manual either. I will be arrogant enough to say that I do in fact know better than Mazda in regards to their own engine and flooding. If they were so smart they'd have tuned the damn ecu properly and published a correct way to start the car rather than a possible last resort. Flooding is not an issue at all for any rotary if you know how to treat them. I am the only person that car start my 1st gen without flooding it because I know how it works. Learn your cars quirks. They all have them.

As far as power goes, no one who does not own one yet can complain about the horsepower rating. It is already understood how much power the car has. People will always complain and speculate that there is still missing power. All I've got to say is that if Mazda knows what they are talking about in regards to the flooding "fix" in the manual, why do you not trust them in regards to power? Some people have double standards and only believe what they choose to. The engine is easily capable of 250+ hp with some good tuning. Maybe they did tune it bad from the factory but we can fix that pretty easily now. Don't buy a car based on hp number. Performance numbers are what counts and if the car is at a certain performance level, it is irrelevant how much power it took to get the car to that point.

Gas mileage, yeah the rotary gets less. Again this is a tuning issue. The older rotaries were less efficient yet were capable of higher numbers than the Renesis has so far shown. I have no doubt that a properly tuned Renesis can't get upper 20's. I believe Zerobanger and his claim at good mileage. He held a constant speed on the freeway. Just because one person can't do it doesn't mean another can't. He could have averaged a mere 5 mph faster and seen his gas mileage go down the toilet. There is a sweet spot at freeway speeds as well. I've ridden in a few RX-8s and all the drivers like to put their foot down more than they have to. On a rotary the difference in gas mileage can be the difference between shifting at 4000 or 4500 rpm. The rotary is a very finicky engine and again learn your cars quirks. If you accelerate harder than you need to of course you'll get worse gas mileage. This isn't a Honda that has no power no matter how hard you drive it. The rotary is unique and you have to be a rotary engine enthusiast to fully appreciate it. The person that just likes the car for its looks will probably not be a very happy owner.

Buy the car because you like it and you feel that it fits your personal needs. Upgrades will be quite nice and you never know, a simple ecu upgrade may give you everything you ever wanted. Understand that the rotary is unique and needs to be treated uniquely. The people that have owned a rotary or several in the past typically aren't the ones who complain about this one. If you can't get over the rotaries quirks, you shouldn't own one. I think you'll love it. You're only regret may be the gas mileage especially with prices going up but just remember that there are people that drive Excursions, Navigators, Duallys, and a host of other big gas guzzlers out there every day as their primary cars. I know several people that drive these land yachts and I never hear them complain about low gas mileage. They have come to terms with the fact that what they want to drive is the way it is and you should too.

Enjoy your new 8!

In the end, despite everyone's own random experiences and "must-be-true" anecdotes, the bottom line is that this car can be driven casually as a primary vehicle without additional stress, right?

Right?

That's essentially the bottom line. Can the car be driven in a comfortable way.

rotarygod, what happens when you're starting your car floored and you release the gas past the "switch" point? Wouldn't your car be running at max throttle? Cold? I guess if you dumped your foot off the gas right away, it wouldn't be an issue....

Originally posted by zerobanger
yes Im sure I'm calculating it correct. that 30.2 MPG that I got 1 time I have never been able to repeat, but over a 220 Mile trip I got 26.2 MPG.

those #'s I quoted you are driving like an absolute granny using cruise control, driving very steady.

If I drive like a mad man I get 16-17 MPG.

I hate being lectured on my calculations, but I fill my tank up, reset my trip meter, drive the damn thing. when its time to fill up again I divide the # of miles on the trip meter by the # of gallons it took to completely fill it up.

later.

I get the same- it's extremely difficult to get less than 17mpg in my car, no matter how hard I drive it, stop and go traffic or otherwise. I'm extremely hard pressed to get less than 230 miles per tank- the last one I only got 204 before the light came on, but I drove it around looking at houses, meaning it was sitting at idle for a good deal of the time. I've gotten over 25 mpg several times (all at highway speeds). Don't think I've ever gotten 30, but I've not tried very hard either.

And again, whether you get the car is compeltely up to you- do you like it enough to ignore possible annoyances once in a while?

I have an automatic...never flooded it. I try and make sure if I go for a very short drive that I give it a few minutes....no big deal. At first I thought this was crazy and it bothered me.....but now it's no big deal. 3800 miles on it so far. My gas mileage was crummy at first(around 12 mpg) and now it's at 15.3 mpg and that is winter driving! I expect it will get better come warmer weather. The car is so darn unique & cool and the handling is so awesome that the few times I drive a very short distance right from it being cold...ususally only in the a.m...it warms up fast......is a miniscule thing. The utility of the back seat is awesome, the trunk is actually spacious and I hardly ever have to add oil...once...1/2 quart. The car is well worth it....I was a little scared too at first since I never had a rotary engine car, but I knew Mazda had superb handling and I have never had so much fun driving until I got a Mazda car(Mazda Protege5)!! The RX 8 is worth every penny! Your choice!! Good Luck!

Llathos' questions are well written and valid. Bottom line is that being a potential buyer I have the same exact questions, which means that there are many others out there who have the same exact questions. Also, I fall into the group of folks who wants a somewhat practical, affordable sports car. I am not a fanatic of rotary, nor the Mazda name brand, I am a fanatic of getting as much as my dollar can get.

With that in mind, the flooding issue is not a minor nuisance. Minor nuisances are rattles and such. I don't think you should have to spend 27k+ on a car in 2004 and have to treat it special in order for it to work right, maybe a $5000 Yugo - that would make more sense considering the cost.

I am not trying to upset anyone on this board or any current owners, I just want to make sure Mazda understands that this is an issue, and they should fix it as opposed to offering recommended start up/shut down procedures that cost $$ in terms of using up fuel.

At this point, I am willing to wait a while to see if a fix/bulletin comes out of Mazda, and I hope one does, because the RX-8 is an interesting car that would be great to own.

After 3100 miles I get 17-18 mpg city and 20-21 mpg hwy using 87 octane. Never flooded it, but I do rev it up to 4k rpm before shutdown. I love my car (my wife thinks more than her) and would buy it again in a hearbeat. Also one of the best perks is that I can haul more than one person around in a sports car.
Good luck and zoom zoom!!

Originally posted by Elara
I get the same- it's extremely difficult to get less than 17mpg in my car, no matter how hard I drive it, stop and go traffic or otherwise. I'm extremely hard pressed to get less than 230 miles per tank- the last one I only got 204 before the light came on, but I drove it around looking at houses, meaning it was sitting at idle for a good deal of the time. I've gotten over 25 mpg several times (all at highway speeds). Don't think I've ever gotten 30, but I've not tried very hard either.

And again, whether you get the car is compeltely up to you- do you like it enough to ignore possible annoyances once in a while?

I'm passing 2500 miles and my overall average, incluing the break in period, is 18.6 MPG. If I drive hard, it drops into the 17s. I haven't broken 20 yet, but did get 19.8 recently. I am hoping to break into the 20s as I put miles on my 8. I'd be elated to reach Elara's 25!

On my daily commute (50+ miles each way), if I think about MPG and am careful, I'm in the 19s easily. If I zoom-zoom on the little 2-lane road I live off of, I slip below 19.

When I was running the numbers to buy the car, we (the BF and I) agreed that I should try to keep the MPG as high as I could on my commute. Club runs with the local Mazda Rotary group do not count ;) . The actual target is 18 MPG and I can do that.

On the flooding "issue": I am more careful about my driving habits, I plan my day more carefully and don't just hop in the car to run out at lunch (which is better for my budget and my waistline). If I have errands to run, I think about them and plan them to accomodate my beloved 8's quirks. If I feel I've ran a "short" trip, I'll rev above 4000 and kill the ignition as a precaution.

If I flood it, it happens and I get it fixed. No big deal to me.

I bought my 8 because it's one hell of a car in all it's aspects to me. And it works its own magic on me, I don't come home angry and stressed from my commute any more. I come home with a Cat-who-8-the-Canary GRIN! :D

My $0.02 worth.

This "flooding" thing is so taken out of proportion. a small handful of 15,000 rx-8's sold flooded and its treated like an epidemic.

4,000 miles no flooding. I get in my car for lunch, drive across the street, park the car when its cold. Get in my car go back to work, park it (still cold), drive home. In the mornings I put gas in my car, gas station is 1 milie away. I have never flooded it. I have never flooded any of my rotary cars.

I'm not saying it cant happen, but this is so stretched out of proportion.

Originally posted by Elara
it's extremely difficult to get less than 17mpg in my car, no matter how hard I drive it, stop and go traffic or otherwise. ... I've gotten over 25 mpg several times (all at highway speeds).

Well, I guess my problem (never reaching 15 in commute or 22 on highway) isn't the color or transmission. How about your seats -- mine are Chapparal.:)

Originally posted by Cski
Llathos' questions are well written and valid. Bottom line is that being a potential buyer I have the same exact questions, which means that there are many others out there who have the same exact questions.

Cski:

Count me as being in the same category. You want to hear how pre-sold I was on this car? All my friends were asking me what color I had ordered even before they were on the lot. For everyone that knows me it was a forgone conclusion that one of them would be in my driveway shortly.

I'm really glad I found this and other forums where you only need to scan a few pages to get the message loud and clear that this is not version 8.0 of an existing product but rather version 1.0 of something else. Accordingly there are major bugs still to be worked out.

I find the people that take these bugs as the car's "character" interesting. I know people that had cars with a lot of character (old jaguar, MGB, etc) and they were great to ride in when they were working. The key word here is working.

Originally posted by Elara
I get the same- it's extremely difficult to get less than 17mpg in my car, no matter how hard I drive it, stop and go traffic or otherwise. I'm extremely hard pressed to get less than 230 miles per tank- the last one I only got 204 before the light came on, but I drove it around looking at houses, meaning it was sitting at idle for a good deal of the time. I've gotten over 25 mpg several times (all at highway speeds). Don't think I've ever gotten 30, but I've not tried very hard either.

And again, whether you get the car is compeltely up to you- do you like it enough to ignore possible annoyances once in a while?

Man I wish I got similar.
I have never gotten over 220 miles on a tank. I have only gotten ranges from 15-18 MPG. However, I don't get much highway time in. (Country backroads, 10 mile commute each way to work)

On the good side, the difference between diving concervative and winding the heck out of it is only about 1-2 MPG difference for me, so it is worth it

Originally posted by Llathos
In the end, despite everyone's own random experiences and "must-be-true" anecdotes, the bottom line is that this car can be driven casually as a primary vehicle without additional stress, right?

Right?

Wellll.... ;)

Yes, you can drive the car in a normal, comfortable manner... but where's the fun in that? Drive this car like she's meant to be driven! Using her as a commuting appliance is wasting her considerable talents. That said, she is a very mannerly, comfortable daily transportation device that'll get you lots of envious looks as you drive.

To answer the question you posed very early on in this thread... the flooding will be non-issue if you simply follow these very reasonable and easy guidelines:

When you're going to drive the car for a normal trip (i.e., a five minute drive or longer), just start her up and go. No need to depress any pedal but the clutch (if M/T) when starting. Turn key, engine starts, drive away. No idling or special warmup necessary; that is accomplished as you drive.

If you need to run the car for a very short time WHEN THE ENGINE'S COLD (such as to move it out of the garage into the driveway to be washed or whatever), start as above, move, then allow to idle for about five minutes. When the temperature gauge is in the normal range, rev the engine to 3500 RPM a couple times and then shut down. It should not stall or flood and should start right back up the next time you go to start it.

If the engine is ALREADY WARM, you can start up and shut down without repeating the five-minute warmup procedure. Just get in the habit of looking at your temp guage before you shut off the engine. If it's in the normal range, you can turn her off and not worry about a flood next time you start her.

I have had my car since mid July, she has nearly 8K miles on her, and she has never stalled or flooded.

Gas mileage: Ain't the greatest, but hey... it's a sportscar. I can squeeze 18-19 MPG out of her in combined city/highway driving, but it's probably 70% stop/go (lights, heavy freeway traffic) and 30% constant-speed highway zooming. It improves tremendously with steady highway driving -- 24-25 MPG then.

Don't worry about all the horror stories you've read here. The RX-8 is a unique, impressive dare-to-be-different machine that will tickle and impress you every time you drive her. Just get used to checking that digital speedo a bit more often than you're used to in whatever you previously drove. The 8's acceleration is deceptively smooth and very addictive.

I have an auto and have not experienced any issues with flooding. I have actually gone out, started the car and drove down a private street to my parents house (less than 1/2 mile) and turned the car off, spent 10-15 minutes inside and then jumped back in and started it right up. Mind you I don't do that very often but that type of driving for some seems to cause a problem. But, so far not a problem for me.

As for the mileage, my main gripe, I routinely get 13-14 MPG around town, driving normally - that is not winding it to the red line or hot shotting the car. I try to take care of my vehicles so I do not routinely hot rod. This is a real sticking point for me, so much so that because of the low mileage versus what the EPA tested, I would not have purchased the car. I absolutely love the design and look of the vehicle, I just cannot deal with the poor gas mileage regardless of it being a "sports" car or not. I have never encountered a vehicle that was not able to achieve at least what was stated on the sticker (or in most cases exceed).

Just my two pennies...your mileage may vary...sorry could not resist.

For me, buying was a cyclical process. I saw it, read the superficial reviews, and I wanted it. Along the way I found this forum, and then I had significant concerns about getting the ~first model year of a car that had "these sorts of issues". As I read more on this forum I saw that although there were issues, for me anyway, each was resolvable (forewarned is forearmed is stated elsewhere in the forum).

Along this path I also accepted that owning an RX-8 may leave me more vulnerable to problems and inconveniences, and some could be significant. I also looked at every dealer in the area, and ruled-out those cars. I kept returning to the RX-8, so after 3 months of looking, I bought one.

This forum has lots of real-world knowledge about the RX-8. I was fortunate that I had the opportunity to know what I was buying and be prepared for it. Its truly amazing car for the right buyers.

Wow.

This community is amazing, I must admit. I am amazed every time I return to this forum and read the quantity and QUALITY of posts written up here with informative and thoughful contributions.

As for my previous post, I did not intend to imply by "casually" driving the car without stress, I meant no fun. I intend to enjoy this vehicle's performance. If I didn't, I would go buy a Honda.

Here's what I'm left with:

1) Being prudent. Continue driving my M-edition MX-6 (for sale on the boards at www.mx6.com, I might add) until the 2005's come out and hope they've fixed the flood issue.

2) Saying to hell with it. I can buy it now, be "careful" about it, and enjoy the car until the fix is distributed to dealers via tech service bulletin covered under warranty.

Arrgh, decisions decisions:)

To answer the question you posed very early on in this thread... the flooding will be non-issue if you simply follow these very reasonable and easy guidelines:

I don't think it is very reasonable unless Mazda offers a gas credit, it costs money to warm up an engine just to wash your car, etc.

Originally posted by Cski
I don't think it is very reasonable unless Mazda offers a gas credit, it costs money to warm up an engine just to wash your car, etc.

you are acting like every rx-8 floods. if it happens occasionaly to some of us, so be it. It appears from my browsing of these threads that 98 pct of us have never flooded our rx-8.

Originally posted by rjenk
As for the mileage, my main gripe, I routinely get 13-14 MPG around town, driving normally - that is not winding it to the red line or hot shotting the car. I try to take care of my vehicles so I do not routinely hot rod. This is a real sticking point for me, so much so that because of the low mileage versus what the EPA tested, I would not have purchased the car. Just my two pennies...your mileage may vary...sorry could not resist.




please read my post in the lounge concerning mpg. good info about the epa test. it is an article from the usatoday. you will find it enlightening.

Originally posted by zerobanger
you are acting like every rx-8 floods. if it happens occasionaly to some of us, so be it. It appears from my browsing of these threads that 98 pct of us have never flooded our rx-8.

After mine flooded (I had not read the "flooding" posts or it would never have happend), I did worry for a while about it happening again. Now having driven through months of frigid winter with no starting or stalling problem, I would agree that it should not really be a factor unless, perhaps, you valet-park all the time.

This actually brings up a key point here that I inquired about early in this thread:

does anyone have metrics on the kind of numbers we're talking about here?

Random people say it's only 1%, other people say it's every single RX-8 out there, it's just about how you handle the vehicle. I was going to start a poll of drivers here who have experienced the problem, but I decided to just post instead.

So here's the question, point blank: Is the problem a design flaw that exists in all cars, or is it a manufacturing flaw that exists in only a percentage of cars, as some people have suggested?

Look . . . Man . . . dude . . . how many ways do we have to say THAT VERY FEW CARS HAVE FLOODED.

It isn't the issue that it is being blown into. Most people who have posted about flooding come right out and say that they started it cold in the morning and stopped it within a minute. In reciprocating engines you can flood it and have it not start the same way because I did it once to my Maxima. It isn't that big of deal if you just warm the car a bit. As for Valeting it, I have done that several times in NYC, and I had no flooding problems with that. I drive the thing like it's a regular car. Some times I race around with it, but most of the time I am commuting in stop and go traffic. It runs fine. Hasn't broken yet. It's a car. You drove it. You know how it feels.

The thing here is that you are worried about plunking down the money and making that choice on a car, which I respect. You are just going to have to take the risk . . .take the step, but you will never convince yourself that the RX 8 is a zero risk. No car is a zero risk, and yes there is a hair, scintilla of more risk to a rotary over a recip. It's small though. None of our cars are dropping dead every week. Very few have ever dropped dead at all! Most of us are driving around happily zoom - zooming from place to place with great handling and smart looks. I can't tell you that there is a zero risk of flooding the car or that the engine absolutely won't die, but mercedes can't tell you that with a AMG55. It's a car. Every one of them has its own quirks, and the RX 8's quirks will not keep you from driving it. It's a great car, and it is the first car that I ever have owned that I did NOT have buyer's remorse over.

Make your choice, and make sure that you are willing to take that leap of faith because if you are worried about flooding for the rest of your ownership, you'll never be happy. Personally, I would think that you would get used to it, but that's a choice that you have to make. There is nothing that any of us can say now that will help you. The choice is within you. Close your eyes and step off that cliff or don't. It's your choice.

Originally posted by Llathos
So here's the question, point blank: Is the problem a design flaw that exists in all cars, or is it a manufacturing flaw that exists in only a percentage of cars, as some people have suggested?

Not a manufacturing flaw. Only thing wrong with my car was I backed it out of driveway and parked in front of the house, in very cold weather, with engine still cold, because I didn't know any better. Now I do. If I'd driven around the block or idled a minute or two would never have happened. That's the whole story.

I think the flooding issue is way overblown on this board. I've had rotaries for 7 years and have NEVER flooded one, EVER.

As far as the MPG, this is a sports car not an economy car. I get about 16mpg and I am fine with it. I know what I bought and I wouldnt trade it for anything. If I was buying for mpg i would have bought a hybrid!

This car is so much damn fun to drive, I think you are just looking for excuses to bash the product.

If I was buying for mpg i would have bought a hybrid!

Facts are facts: Hybrids do get more mpg. But so do the RX-8's competion. Take the 350Z for example - 20 gallon tank with 20/26mpg vs. RX-8 - 15.9 gallon tank with 18/24, not to mention less hp and torque. So all the concerns about the poor mpg on the RX-8 are reasonable when you consider that the competion does better.

I'm no automotive engineer or anything, but comparing the gas mileage of a 350Z to that of an RX-8 is comparing apples to oranges... errr, pistons to rotors. Totally different engine design! Heck, why not compare displacements? At 1.3L, the rotary *should* be getting 35mpg at least, right?

I have always been enamored of the radically different and yet elegantly simple design of the rotary engine, and I'm more than happy to tolerate its unique idiosyncrasies (less than stellar gas mileage and the remote chance of flooding if I forget to warm it up) in order to enjoy its intoxicating smoothness and 9K redline.

Everything in life is a tradeoff. Choosing a rotary engine is a worthwhile one, IMNSHO.

Originally posted by Cski
Facts are facts: Hybrids do get more mpg. But so do the RX-8's competion. Take the 350Z for example - 20 gallon tank with 20/26mpg vs. RX-8 - 15.9 gallon tank with 18/24, not to mention less hp and torque. So all the concerns about the poor mpg on the RX-8 are reasonable when you consider that the competion does better.

when you buy a 350Z and get an interior that looks like a 10 year old designed it with his first lego set, where does that leave you considering the Z costs more than an rx-8.

MY FIRST POST!!! new member today!! so, this might come to help some of you that posted here.

www.globemegawheels.com/news/20030828/Automotive.html

My only issue is the MPG otherwise the car is flawless and It is well worth it to me to put up with the low MPGs. The other problems(ratlling,flooding,blown engines) are a small minority as is with ALL CARS! No matter what car you buy, there is a remote chance you will get a lemon, so there is somewhat of a risk, but my opinion the 8 is well worth it. don't let some remote minor issues deter you from buying and otherwise excellent sports car. Your options might be more open as well. For me I needed the 4 doors and roomy back seats or else it was sedan city, and this cars delivers the sporting nature and handling of a sport car that a sedan does not quite give you. Good luck!

Alright.

Thanks guys, I appreciate the input and support on these issues. After becoming intoxicated with the vehicle, I've decided to go for it.

I simply won't forgive myself if I don't. It was so nice to drive, I have to have it. I've lusted for an RX-7 all this time, but the timing was all wrong for me. Now, the timing is much better, and there's a new kid in town.

Come Saturday:
<closing eyes and stepping off aforementioned cliff>

Originally posted by Cski
Facts are facts: Hybrids do get more mpg. But so do the RX-8's competion. Take the 350Z for example - 20 gallon tank with 20/26mpg vs. RX-8 - 15.9 gallon tank with 18/24, not to mention less hp and torque. So all the concerns about the poor mpg on the RX-8 are reasonable when you consider that the competion does better.

I came out of driving a brilliant Maxima for 180,000 miles and ten years. I love the Z car, but it's mielage isn't that much better than the 8 . . . 2 miles per gallon, and if you drive it hard, it will get worse mileage too. However, it is better in MPG. It is IMHO probably a faster car by a little, but it is a 2 seater not a 4 seater, and the Mazda is a more real 4 seater than most things out there that purport to be 4 seat coupes. I have driven 6 footers in the back for over an hour with no complaints, even when I asked for complaints, I got none. The other thing that I think the 8 does better than the Z is handle. The small size and weight of the engine permits a center of gravity that is lower and more central than other cars with the possible exception of super expensive mid-engine exotics. In the end the RX 8 is not a direct competitor to the Z. The Z is a purpose built two seat sports car. The 8 is a sporty four seat coupe, and it falls more into the Grand Touring category than a sports car, which gives it the practicality of a day to day driver. That's all just my opinion.

The Rx-8 is currently my only car, so by default it's my commuter and daily driver. I have a long (50+) mile commute, part fast running freeway, part bumper to bumper stop and go. I average 19 MPG.

I have 4000 miles on my 8 and have never flooded the car, nor do I use elaborate warm up proceedures. I get in the car, I start the car, I wait 10 seconds, and I drive off. I check the oil every 1000 miles or so, and change it every 3000, but I'd do that for any car I valued.

Snow tires are a must if you ever plan on driving in winter weather conditions.

The car has never failed to start, it's never run poorly, it's never even flashed a CEL or other idiot light at me. It's reliability has been flawless thus far. When it comes to reliability, some disgruntled posters make it sound like the 8 is a 1974 Fiat, but that certainly hasn't been my experience.

For the price, I'm delighted with all the 8 brings to the table. The only drawback is the subpar mileage, but for me, the loss of 2-3 MPG (when compared to similarly performing cars) is well worth it.

I've been a rotary owner for 17 years, but I must confess that all the flooding talk has even me paranoid. I had my car in for service, and when I went to pick it up, some lady went to go get it and bring it to me (silly, because it was parked in a lot not 50 feet away). Anyway, she had no idea how to drive it and stalled it as she pulled out. I winced, with horrific visions of a flooded engine flashing before my eyes. She started it again, then needed to put it in reverse, because she was near a fence. Whoops, had it in 6th gear! Stalled again! Started one more time, then figure out the reverse vs. 6th gear thing, and managed to bring it to my feet.

I personally have not flooded in 10,500 miles, even in cold weather. I do follow the recommended start and stop procedures. My mileage is between 18-20 miles per gallon no matter how or where I drive it.

I love this car, and so will you.

P.S. - the one thing I will say about flooding is that rotaries can be very difficult to un-flood. I had to do it once on my 2nd gen RX-7, and it was an ordeal. However, my RX-7 has a leaky injector, which doesn't help matters any.

Go for it Llathos.
I had my doubts until your last post. Your use of the words "intoxicated with this vehicle" means you can stick a fork in it, 'cause you are done.
Enjoy.
Post back when you take her home.

Originally posted by Shooter
As far as the MPG, this is a sports car not an economy car. I get about 16mpg and I am fine with it. I know what I bought and I wouldnt trade it for anything. If I was buying for mpg i would have bought a hybrid!

This car is so much damn fun to drive, I think you are just looking for excuses to bash the product.

Your point has been made by many.

The only problem with that is that in all marketing material and in print reviews the car is stated to get 18/25. Yes, the MPG is calculated by EPA testing but Mazda markets the RENESIS as being much more fuel efficient engine. And yes, the EPA also states a range for fuel economy based on how the person drives but when I have both treated the car with white gloves and also driven it hard and no matter how it is driven it still produces 13 to 14 MPG, which is outside even the stated range, there is a problem.

Yes the 8 is a sports car and yes the mileage will not equal that of a hybrid but when the vehicle does not meet fuel ranges stated by the EPA and marketed by Mazda it makes difficult for an owner to not feel like they have been cheated, especially when others are having similar experiences and Mazda ignores the problem.

Originally posted by Haze
Look . . . Man . . . dude . . . how many ways do we have to say THAT VERY FEW CARS HAVE FLOODED.
Actually, I'll have to disagree with you there. Mazda NA's customer service reps readily admit the company is investigating technical solutions for the flooding issue; if it wasn't even more widespread than it seems here they would never admit there was an issue in the first place.

I agree that if you follow the warm up procedure and always make sure to not shut off your car until it's warmed up, you wil have a very low chance of flooding; however if you do not and shut off the engine cold, your chances of flooding are apparently reasonably high.

I will post about it in a different thread, but an email I received from Mazda earlier today states that stalling the engine should not be a concern; the flooding supposedly only occurs when the engine is shut off cold and is allowed to sit for awhile.

That still doesn't solve the valet parking issue, but it does reassure me somewhat, as does the fact that they are actively working on an engineering fix to the problem...

Originally posted by Aratinga
Wellll....

Yes, you can drive the car in a normal, comfortable manner... but where's the fun in that? Drive this car like she's meant to be driven! Using her as a commuting appliance is wasting her considerable talents. That said, she is a very mannerly, comfortable daily transportation device that'll get you lots of envious looks as you drive.

To answer the question you posed very early on in this thread... the flooding will be non-issue if you simply follow these very reasonable and easy guidelines:

When you're going to drive the car for a normal trip (i.e., a five minute drive or longer), just start her up and go. No need to depress any pedal but the clutch (if M/T) when starting. Turn key, engine starts, drive away. No idling or special warmup necessary; that is accomplished as you drive.

If you need to run the car for a very short time WHEN THE ENGINE'S COLD (such as to move it out of the garage into the driveway to be washed or whatever), start as above, move, then allow to idle for about five minutes. When the temperature gauge is in the normal range, rev the engine to 3500 RPM a couple times and then shut down. It should not stall or flood and should start right back up the next time you go to start it.

If the engine is ALREADY WARM, you can start up and shut down without repeating the five-minute warmup procedure. Just get in the habit of looking at your temp guage before you shut off the engine. If it's in the normal range, you can turn her off and not worry about a flood next time you start her.

I have had my car since mid July, she has nearly 8K miles on her, and she has never stalled or flooded.

Gas mileage: Ain't the greatest, but hey... it's a sportscar. I can squeeze 18-19 MPG out of her in combined city/highway driving, but it's probably 70% stop/go (lights, heavy freeway traffic) and 30% constant-speed highway zooming. It improves tremendously with steady highway driving -- 24-25 MPG then.

Don't worry about all the horror stories you've read here. The RX-8 is a unique, impressive dare-to-be-different machine that will tickle and impress you every time you drive her. Just get used to checking that digital speedo a bit more often than you're used to in whatever you previously drove. The 8's acceleration is deceptively smooth and very addictive.


gee, so,
1. does it mean I DO NOT NEED to warm up if i m gonna drive for at leat 5 mins?
2. whats the range of "low tempeture"? (i'm living in California...)
3. from my understanding, we have to warm up because of a.low tempture b. short distance drivings only?


if 1. is true, the flooding issue is very minor to me:D

actually i am shopping for a "small" and "useful" car. RX8 used to be my very first choice! however, the flooding issue and MPG did scare me away(cox i didnt really undertand the situation). minicopper S showed up later. but hey, it's "cute" car not a "cool" car... so i kept searching. i found out that the Acura TL and G35 are nice ones too. however, they look like a "daddy" or "grandpa" car to me (u know, i'm young :D ) furthermore, the interior of G35 is...err... does it worth 30k+ for that cheap and ugly design? the MPG isnt good either (well, it has a big V6 thuogh...)at the same time, Mazda 6 and 3 appeared in my list...they both have nice interior and exterior.... but weak performance...later i saw subaru's NEW legacy GT with 250hp and nice interior but a very ugly bumper (the US. ver) :mad: even though its not a small car, the value is very good...

Finally, i'm back with RX8 again:D i am looking forward for the 05" RX8 and i really hope to become a RX8 driver within a few months!
cheers!

P.S. the posts in this forum has really high quality of context

Originally posted by no_pistons
gee, so,
1. does it mean I DO NOT NEED to warm up if i m gonna drive for at leat 5 mins?
2. whats the range of "low tempeture"? (i'm living in California...)
3. from my understanding, we have to warm up because of a.low tempture b. short distance drivings only?


if 1. is true, the flooding issue is very minor to me:D


#1 IS true. Low temps = below freezing. You always want to warm it up (just regular driving unless it's a super-quick trip), even if it isn't cold out. And yes, short distance driving is really your only flooding concern.

Enjoy!

My 8 was at the dealer recently for a very minor warrenty repair (took less than 10 minutes), and I asked the tech about the flooding. He said almost no flooding problems from owners (note this is a very high volume dealer), but a lot from the transport companies. It seems that unloading and offloading to and from railcars and car trucks has caused a lot of flooding. But the main thing I want to report is how the dealer gets these cars started. He said they remove and clean the plugs, the plugs are easily accessable if you remove the right front tire and bend back a plastic wheel well part and use an extension on the wrench, and all four plugs are accessed easy, he cautioned to make sure you replace the leading and trailing plugs correctly. After the plugs are removed, you turn the engine over a couple of times to blow out whatever is there, and replace the plugs, and the cars always start. This is good news. I have never flooded my car, but knowing that it's not too hard to remedy, I will take an hour or so to remove the plugs and so forth, and not have to tow it to the dealer.

The right (passenger) front tire?

I got you beat khoney. I've been driving a rotary as a daily driver for 23 years (1st and 2nd gen RX-7s). I've flooded the 2nd gen twice before I found out why (this was in the days before the Internet so I didn't have resources like this forum). Both times were to back it out the garage to wash it. Now that I know not to do that, flooding is no longer a concern. The rotary engine is not fragile but does have its quirks. My 2nd gen has 170K miles and will run to redline as strong as it did the day I bought it. I expect no less from the Renesis. Once you're familiar with it, it will be far more reliable and cheaper to maintain than any comparable car.

Another way to think about mileage is to think cost/mile. You can use 87 octane in a RX-8 for about 20 cents less per gallon than 91 octane. That's about 3 bucks per tank. Factor that in and you get about 15% improvement in cost/mile. Doesn't do anything about the range but it can ease the pain in the wallet.

Get this car and you won't regret it.

Originally posted by rjenk
Your point has been made by many.

The only problem with that is that in all marketing material and in print reviews the car is stated to get 18/25. Yes, the MPG is calculated by EPA testing but Mazda markets the RENESIS as being much more fuel efficient engine. And yes, the EPA also states a range for fuel economy based on how the person drives but when I have both treated the car with white gloves and also driven it hard and no matter how it is driven it still produces 13 to 14 MPG, which is outside even the stated range, there is a problem.

Yes the 8 is a sports car and yes the mileage will not equal that of a hybrid but when the vehicle does not meet fuel ranges stated by the EPA and marketed by Mazda it makes difficult for an owner to not feel like they have been cheated, especially when others are having similar experiences and Mazda ignores the problem.

My window sticker said 18/24 not 18/25. Go beyond that, it says in small print "The majority of these cars will get between 15-20 in the city and 20-28 in the highway depending on driving habits and conditions". That wasn't the exact wordage, but its similar to that.

I would think that anyone that gets 13 MPG is living his life at 9000 RPm or has a problem with the car. I think less than 16-17 MPG is the vast minority of us.

Then don't buy the damn thing!!!!

Originally posted by zerobanger
My window sticker said 18/24 not 18/25. Go beyond that, it says in small print "The majority of these cars will get between 15-20 in the city and 20-28 in the highway depending on driving habits and conditions". That wasn't the exact wordage, but its similar to that.

I would think that anyone that gets 13 MPG is living his life at 9000 RPm or has a problem with the car. I think less than 16-17 MPG is the vast minority of us.

im getting 12-13 city and i have redlined the engine twice since ive owned my car. i took it in for the oil pan replacement and i mentioned the MPG and was told its probably due winter gas. bring it back in the summer if its still bad. only problem with that theory is the MPG was just as bad last summer. it was ok when i first got the car 15-16 MPG city but it has gotten worse not better.

Originally posted by Llathos
In the end, despite everyone's own random experiences and "must-be-true" anecdotes, the bottom line is that this car can be driven casually as a primary vehicle without additional stress, right?

Right?

That's essentially the bottom line. Can the car be driven in a comfortable way.

rotarygod, what happens when you're starting your car floored and you release the gas past the "switch" point? Wouldn't your car be running at max throttle? Cold? I guess if you dumped your foot off the gas right away, it wouldn't be an issue....

Whether or not you want to stress about it is completely up to you. In my opinion, the more you worry/stress about it the more likely you are to experience a problem because your behaviour will be subtly modified by your worry.

I have 8800 miles on mine, I get around 17-18mpg consistently (San Diego, DSC on, mainly no AC) (unless I'm pushing it really hard, where I have measured lower) and I have never flooded it. I spent a week shutting it off and stalling it cold a couple of weeks ago to see if I could get it to flood and I could not - I still say you should follow the short-trip procedure if you're going to be shutting down cold but I think that there's far too much paranoia being spread around about flooding and gas mileage. Sure some folks are having an issue, and some had an issue and got rid of the car - but I believe most are not having an issue and to spend your time worrying about it is a waste of time. Drive it and enjoy it.

Simon.

Originally posted by ArXate
We need more information!!!! What region of the US are you in? What brand of gas? What octane? DSC off? Did you draft behind a truck? Come on!!!!!

Later.

You still haven't answered with more specific information. Instead of taking insult from someone asking you, reasonably, if you used amount of gas at fill-up, you should focus on the bigger, more important issue of sharing information that can help ALL RX8 owners' causes.

Originally posted by BillK
Actually, I'll have to disagree with you there. Mazda NA's customer service reps readily admit the company is investigating technical solutions for the flooding issue; if it wasn't even more widespread than it seems here they would never admit there was an issue in the first place.



Actually this is just speculative. Yes, I know that Mazda reps have been talking about a fix for flooding, but I believe that that is a marketing problem and not an engineering one.

As llathos has been questioning, he has heard that this car is undriveable from flooding. From the volume and qualities of posts on the forum, I believe that it has been an overblown problem as an engineering problem. However, it's a huge problem from a marketing persepctive. These cars are stacking up on lots, and I think that it's from unwarranted bad reputation, as well as the weather. God knows that I would never buy a car on Summer tires in the snow seasons, and I think that alot of other people are having the same problems. However, cars ARE stacking up, and Mazda needs to move them. Marketing knows that the flooding is a bad reputation so they are going to "fix" it. Since the problem is inherant to rotary design (as pointed out above by the 25 year rotary owner who had the problem with his second gen RX 7), fixing it really isn't possible, which means that they might be working on a "fix" that is as close to a placebo as a sugar pill. If they can create a "fix", then the word on the street is "well, it had a problem, but now it has been repaired so you are safe to buy the car."

That is another possiblity for the "fix" other than an engineering problem. Therefore A in your premise that since Mazda is working on a fix does not necessarily lead to B flooding is an engineering problem or that the problem is more wide spread than we are seeing here.

It could be as you say above that it is an engineering problem, but this is another possiblity for why Mazda has adopted this rap for their reps. Unfortunately, neither you nor I know the truth. Only mazda does, and as usual . . . they ain't talkin'.

Perhaps true. Now that the "stall when cold" issue seems to have been resolved, the question still remains of what to do about valets; no valet is going to "warm the engine for five minutes" if they have to move the car to get other cars out of a small lot, and I'm not sure a warning of the form "do not valet park your RX-8" will necessarily fly, especially in areas with lots of staffed garages (Chicago, New York) or lots of valet lots (L.A.)

You are right that 8s seem to be stacking up, and therein lies a problem, especially due to bad word-of-mouth. All it takes is one new RX-8 owner to complain that they had to have their new $30K car towed and an entire office is soured on the car.

Flooding can, of course always happen, the question is whether Mazda can do anything to make the situation more recoverable than to have to pull the plugs and clean them and crank the engine to blow out the accumulated crud. Perhaps a hotter plug will help, perhaps an ECU change of some type, who knows...

As far as MPG goes, for those getting 13-14 MPG my big question is not how high you rev while driving, but what gear you cruise in. If you're in traffic going 35 MPH, are you in third or sixth? Big difference there.

For example, with my current car (not an 8), if I get "lazy" and just leave the car in third or fourth at 35 MPH, I get around 17 MPG; if I shift into sixth as soon as I get to speed (usually a 1->3->6 shift, 1->3 shift at 3000 RPM or so) I can average 22 MPG under the same driving conditions (mixed city/highway drive averaging 40 MPH with little traffic.) Is that the way I drive the car for enjoyment? Heck no, but on my commute there's no reason to be winding the engine out RPM-wise, either.

Finally, I believe people would be a lot less sensitive to the mileage the 8 gets if Mazda had just put a decently sized gas tank on the car; IMHO if it had a 19-20 gallon tank, people would notice the mileage a lot less. Most people don't sit and calculate the mileage if they can get 300-350 miles from a tank of gas; when they can only get 200, the calculations begin pretty quickly... :(

Mileage is awful. Just sold my 8 after 7 weeks. If private money is used, as opposed to a company fuel card, avoid this car like the plague.......

If I were in the UK I wouldn't drive an RX8 either. Here, my tab for driving the car I want the way I want is $2-3 per week, even buying 93 octane. (Sorry, I'm not going to cruise at 35 mph in 6th gear -- might as well have a Prius.)

Originally posted by shebam
(Sorry, I'm not going to cruise at 35 mph in 6th gear -- might as well have a Prius.)
I personally find things like this ludicrous, but to each their own method of driving a car.

To me, owning a sports car is about capabilities when you drive it for fun; on a 40 MPH drive to work on straight roads there's no need to rev at 5K, IMHO. Then again I think street racing is stupid, too, and some live to "burn" the Acura TL in the next lane.

If you want to not "drive the car as if it's a Prius," that's fine, but do realize there's going to be a substantial MPG penalty. If you're not willing to drive in 6th, and to shift there ASAP, you'll never achieve the MPG on the window sticker. It's a tradeoff; high revs may be fun but they also mean low mileage.

Why don't you test drive an 8. Tell the sales rep you want to start it cold and move it a short distance and then restart it. See for your self if it floods. My 8 doesn't flood. I've stalled it several times backing out of the garage and have no problem restarting it. If you beleive all the negative hype you should not by one. Stick with the honda accords and camrys They may be more suitable to your ideal of a car.
'

I don't disagree with BillK about a thing. I just don't feel like downshifting every time I need to change lanes or regain speed after a slowdown -- which is most of the time around here. If I had an easier commute I'd be happy to cruise along in 6th. But under commuting conditions, I'm turning my ride into a low hp car by doing so. I readily admit I'm not likely to get good mileage on my commute in ANY capable car. (And my road racing days are well behind me.)

Originally posted by shebam
I don't disagree with BillK about a thing. I just don't feel like downshifting every time I need to change lanes or regain speed after a slowdown -- which is most of the time around here. If I had an easier commute I'd be happy to cruise along in 6th. But under commuting conditions, I'm turning my ride into a low hp car by doing so. I readily admit I'm not likely to get good mileage on my commute in ANY capable car. (And my road racing days are well behind me.)

That's what I do in the short (10 miles but can take an hour) stop-n-go I drive in the evening. You want good throttle response and IMHO that means keeping the car above 4k RPM.

Not to mention all the wise RX-7 guys in my club will tell you "lugging" a rotary is very bad!

Besides, a tank of gas is cheaper than therapy for road rage! :D

riding around town in 6th gear won't help your mpg. it drags on the engine too much at low rpms.

Originally posted by Shooter
riding around town in 6th gear won't help your mpg. it drags on the engine too much at low rpms.
Sorry, I know by experience you're wrong.

As long as you're not bogging your engine (which driving at 40 MPH in 6th is not), you're saving fuel if your foot is on the gas (obviously if you're coasting, it's a wash.)

Regarding the mpg issue. My 2000 Mazda 626 only gets 17mpg in the city in the summer. It has a 2.5 v6 170 hp. I think many of you are unrealistic for a car that puts out 238 hp. The 8 is a high powered sports car. If you can afford to buy one you should be able to afford the extra gas costs. Who here can't afford $200 more a year for gas? The fun factor is well worth it.

Also be glad you don't live in the uk. Their cars only have 232 hp because of their stricter emision requirement

If you can afford to buy one you should be able to afford the extra gas costs. Who here can't afford $200 more a year for gas?

Thanks for stating, what in my opinion, is the obvious. The 'extra' gas cost is chump change, and in fact, worth every penny for what I get in return.

BillK -

I agree with everything that you said above.

Originally posted by BillK
Sorry, I know by experience you're wrong.

As long as you're not bogging your engine (which driving at 40 MPH in 6th is not), you're saving fuel if your foot is on the gas (obviously if you're coasting, it's a wash.)

I thought earlier you said being in 6th at 35MPH = 1700RPM ?
Even at 40, you are only doing 2000RPM, which in my opinion is still lugging it.

IMHO, when I reach my cruising speed, I try to keep RPMs about at 3000 RPM.

Originally posted by Reeko
I thought earlier you said being in 6th at 35MPH = 1700RPM ?
Even at 40, you are only doing 2000RPM, which in my opinion is still lugging it.

IMHO, when I reach my cruising speed, I try to keep RPMs about at 3000 RPM.

You'll get better gas mileage at 2500. And you aren't lugging the engine then.

i noticed worse gas mileage driving around town in 6th gear. Maybe its just me but i definitely noticed a difference in mpg after i stopped going to 6th gear as quickly as possible....

1)Don't buy a sports car for good fuel economy buy a prius. That being said you can achieve the posted MPG if you shift before 5,000 RPM. If you want to play than your going to pay.

2)Every morning I drive half a mile to the local 7/11 and I've owned the 8 since October and it hasn't flooded once. It's not something that can be guaranteed as others haven't been so fortunate. Keep in mind I live in Texas.
Bottom line: I am a car nut and have purchased on average a new car once every year and a half since 1990 includineg a 911, MR2, Integra GS-R, Z-28, 3 different Celica GT-S including current generation, and a 85 RX-7 GSL. This is the best car I've owned by far and will be the first one I keep for a long period of time. I look for exuses to drive my 8 and simply put this car is AWESOME!! All new cars have problems to iron out these days. Have you seen how many cars Nissan and Honda have recalled this past year including the 350Z?

Originally posted by SCiMMiA
The right (passenger) front tire?

I think that's what he said. I could be wrong. Or he could have mis-spoke. It would be nice if someone here that has removed thier plugs would post a how-to post.

Originally posted by Shooter
i noticed worse gas mileage driving around town in 6th gear. Maybe its just me but i definitely noticed a difference in mpg after i stopped going to 6th gear as quickly as possible....

thats weird

I may be wrong, but aren't the plugs on the driver's side?

Originally posted by SCiMMiA
I may be wrong, but aren't the plugs on the driver's side?

Maybe he's from one of those right-hand-drive nations where the passenger side is on the left...

Originally posted by GiN
Maybe he's from one of those right-hand-drive nations where the passenger side is on the left...

The plugs are on the drivers side, so my earlier post is in error. I looked today. I'm not sure exactly how removing the tire and wheel well piece helps though. You can see all four plugs pretty easily and they don't look too difficult to access. The back two look like you have a straight shot. The front two look like you need to work close in under a mount for an electronic unit. The plugs are all angled up at maybe a 70 degree angle, so I'm not sure how the side access from the wheel well helps.