A few of our group got together yesterday for a "tuner" day. We installed 2 of the modified oil bypass kits on members cars and had some surprising findings. It was very interesting.

Ok some of the findings that we saw are:

1- Guess how much oil is left in the pan after it has been drained until it stops dripping?. The car is up level on jack stands , dealerships etc would also have it level if they change your oil.
Would you believe 1LITER of oil oil is left behind in the pan.
Thats a lot of oil! This is very true--we observed and recorded this in 2 members cars! 1 frigging liter of old oil remains in the OIL PAN and more is in the coolers and lines. Thats a lot of oil oil that doesnt get changed out
The oil remains because of the oil pan baffles present and the plug hole is a little too far up on the side.
To Paul and I this makes for a strong cause to use an evacuator when you change the oil as you should be able to get more out. Course jacking up different sides of the car should help also but thats a pida to do.
I never realized there was this much left in the pan after draining..

2- The 09 oil filter will not fit on the pre 09 IF you have a Racing Beat oil adaptor installed---this makes it too tall to clear the firewall----damn! (Addentum--seems with some slight mods the 09 will fit. More to follow)

3-- oil pressures with the bypass kit can vary from engine to engine. The start up pressures on an engine that has had an e shaft pellet modification will be higher than the engine that has the oem e pellet system in place. However after the oil warms and the pellet is closed the pressures will be very similar. The e pellet difference on start up oil pressure was interesting to see. With the cold e pellet the oil pressure was much lower--almost like stock. As soon as the oil started warming up (over 140F) you could see the oil pressure rising!
Please also remember that different viscosity and temps cause different pressure readings.

One members oil at 180F and a 10W/40 dino oil was 100psi at almost 4Krpms.
We learned some good things to know.
Pictures to follow via SilverEight (hes the Man!) and more info to come.
So far very successful!
olddragger

Interesting OD about the Oil left behind in the Sump...sorry Oil Pan.

On a side note, when I did my 20K service (S2) and drained the oil my catcher said there was 4.0 litres, with a new filter I put in 4.2 litres...without a filter 4. (book says 4.2 and 4.4 litres), but from a totally DRY engine it takes 7 litres, so that is 2.6 left behind and in the coolers...for S2.

For S1 3.5 litres with Oil Filter and 6.4L totally DRY engine, so 2.9 litres left behind.

According to Mazda WS manual.

So we are talking around 46-48% of your OLD Oil is reused if you can not get it out!!

Another reason why I double flush.

Shit, that much oil in the pan? There is not as much in the stock coolers as people think though. Guy I'll be switching to Rotella and double flushing.

Ah o - note to self: double flush the new engine. I still need to swap out that oil pressure gauge...

Pela Pump 6000 oil extractor. I've used mine since the first oil change. I now have 40K miles on the odometer. I may drain from the plug next change just because but this device definitely makes changing the oil so much easier. And the car remains level.

Pela Pump 6000 oil extractor. I've used mine since the first oil change. I now have 40K miles on the odometer. I may drain from the plug next change just because but this device definitely makes changing the oil so much easier. And the car remains level.Yeah, that's what I use to, so much easier, and you get out almost as much oil as sequentially jacking up each side of the car.

I just hang my car upside down and drain it out of the filler cap. A few good shakes and I know I got it all out. :icon16:

But seriously, great info OD :)

Are we at BHR persona non grata or will I be allowed to share my particular experiences/knowledge on this matter in this thread?

Lemme know.............

Are we at BHR persona non grata or will I be allowed to share my particular experiences/knowledge on this matter in this thread?

Lemme know.............
go for it!

I know I can't speak for others, but I personally would like to know your findings. ;)

before I add oil I will ...

always jack my car driver side up first, drain, let it down, jack the other side up, let it down, jack the driver side up again, drain

Its pretty complicated, but its not that hard, when it drain, I usually gonna leave it there for at least 15 minutes. go have a quick snack or lunch.

I can get almost 6 quart of oil out everytime. so Im happy.

As Denny said, I have pics and vids to present. Very good session and good observations. I will try to get some of this up by this evening.

I wish I could have made it out to join you guys. But I had other car issues to work on, and needed to be at home to do it. Look forward to seeing the photos, and hearing more about it. Eventually, I will probably do this mod too, and good to know how much oil is left behind, I will have to look into the extractor that was mentioned.

Yeah, I'll pretty much jack up the drivers side, then passenger, then back to drivers. Let each sit about 10-15 minutes. I find that this allows me the oppurtunity to check out other things while the car is jacked up. :yelrotflm
Extractor sounds good though.........might have to look into that.

Just buy a drum of crap oil and flush that throgh it at every change, it's only adding 5 minutes to the job after all.

That much old oil/debris ain't good though!

Ray--any thread I start you are more than welcome to post in. You never need to ask dude?
OD

Interesting OD about the Oil left behind in the Sump...sorry Oil Pan.

On a side note, when I did my 20K service (S2) and drained the oil my catcher said there was 4.0 litres, with a new filter I put in 4.2 litres...without a filter 4. (book says 4.2 and 4.4 litres), but from a totally DRY engine it takes 7 litres, so that is 2.6 left behind and in the coolers...for S2.

For S1 3.5 litres with Oil Filter and 6.4L totally DRY engine, so 2.9 litres left behind.

According to Mazda WS manual.

So we are talking around 46-48% of your OLD Oil is reused if you can not get it out!!

Another reason why I double flush.

In other words, getting the normal amount of oil out, you only change about 55% of oil, 45% remains dirty.

After a double flush, you get 55% of the old oil out again, still leaving 25% of the old stuff behind.

It seems the best option is to get more oil out in the first place; I'm liking the suggestions as to how to do that.

Thanks, guys.....

Here goes;

I know that I have nowhere near the experience of other engine builders in the rotary/Renesis world but in the several engines I have built I have never seen evidence of the oil pressure/bearing wear concern that others seem to worry about except with ONE engine. With every engine build I do I measure all the dimensions and clearances (3x) and document the clearances I find. The maintenence regimens have been different for each one of these engines, too.

Easy_E1 and I have asked around to the rotary engine builders we know about operating pressure modifications and, although we are told that "it works", none of them can explain how they have come to their particular conclusions.

I am not saying that raising the operarting pressure does NOT work, only that nobody can explain it to us in a manner that convinces us it is necessary and nobody seems to be able to define their use of the word "work". One of these guys had his hands on a Renesis before anyone outside of Mazda did and even he couldn't explain it.

Please remember that BHR is founded on the idea that fewer than 1% of those of us who modify our cars actually need the racing-application-type mods we often discuss on this forum. I spend much of my time steering our potential customers away from stuff they do not/will not need (even BHR product) and with my particular experiences on the Renesis I am not seeing the same things that others seem to be.

As far as fully flushing your oil; do all that you can but if you simply make sure to have clean oil in your pan and change it when it gets dirty, you should be fine.

My particular maintenence regimen involves little more than cleaning the air filter and changing the oil and oil filter when the oil gets dirty, regardless of mileage.

I don't have time to add text to these images right now. I will have to do that later. I'm categorizing them in 4 sections. Install, Oil filter, Oil and gauges. Let me say first that I'm not advocating this is some magical fix all for anything! I did this because I personally think higher oil pressure means for better lubrication. This is not an endorsement by any means of this product. Only that I wanted to try it out and report my findings. Plus, hanging with my friends wrenching on our cars is a great way to spend a Saturday. :)

Install:

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/install/DSC_0495.jpg

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/install/DSC_0516.jpg

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/install/DSC_0518.jpg

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/install/DSC_0520.jpg

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/install/DSC_0523.jpg

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/install/DSC_0533.jpg

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/install/DSC_0539.jpg

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/install/DSC_0540.jpg

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/install/DSC_0545.jpg

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/install/DSC_0580.jpg

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/install/DSC_0587.jpg

Oil Filter:

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/oil_filter/DSC_0557.jpg

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/oil_filter/DSC_0559.jpg

Oil:

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/oil/DSC_0529.jpg

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/oil/DSC_0532.jpg

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/oil/DSC_0544.jpg

Gauges:

This is from my car, Jason did not have gauges.

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/gauges/DSC_0588.jpg

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/gauges/DSC_0597.jpg

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/gauges/DSC_0598.jpg

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/gauges/DSC_0599.jpg

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/gauges/DSC_0600.jpg

Charles what are you thoughts on the fact that Mazda increased the OP on the Series II rx8's?

My thoughts are that we have no idea WHY they did that and anything else is simply presumption. I recently decided to alter the manner in which I prepare the wiring harness on the BHR Ignition System. Does that imply there was a problem with all other harnesses I have built before then?

Opinions I have that I share with others MUST be based strictly on that which I have seen/experienced/know because anything other than that is simply gossip-mongering. That is my only point here.

Something to keep in mind; many of the problems inherent in the RX-8 were discovered, discussed, and articulated by whom and when?

Thanks for posting Ray. Hope i can help clarify some things.
1st---bearing wear has NEVER been associated with oil pressure problems. That is a oil viscosity problem per Rick. Viscosity being related to film strenght of the oil. It is not a pressure thing at all.
2- the Renesis engine cannot maintain factory recommend oil pressures in it's oem condition
3- The 09's changed the lubrication system. Rational thinking would indicate that makes it better. Deductive reasoning is sometimes all you have to go on when you dont have factory resources to study a problem. For example--- does the ls1 coil and oem dwell times actually improve our ignition (no pot shots meant!) Well deductive reasoning and logic would say "Why-- Hell yea!" and I would agree.
4- prelimanary evidence indicated that the oil takes less time to warm up as it is scrubbing more heat out of the engine with the higher pressures. Continues under study.

uh oh boss just called more later

I have the crappy old BHR ignition system. Well, it must be crappy since BHR has a new and improved production process, right? j/k ;) I generally find that prototypes are superior, after which 'value engineering' raises its ugly head.

We certainly are a fickle bunch. I do try to resist any mod's that I haven't been able to rigorously prove to myself, beyond a reasonable doubt, have a real value in performance, man-machine operation, or aesthetics enhancement.

That's not to say I'm not intrigued and impressed by the pioneers here, but I would agree that most of these type upgrades are only needed by a very small percentage of enthusiasts, OP excepted.

..... I recently decided to alter the manner in which I prepare the wiring harness on the BHR Ignition System. Does that imply there was a problem with all other harnesses I have built before then?
....

^^ +1 for Charles

So many people are worried about extreme maintenance measures, and treating their RX8 to the absolute cream of the crop for extended life/maintenance modifications.

What for exactly? A good friend of mine, locally, has a series 1 RX8, with the latest PCM updates, no other "maintenance" modifications. He changes his oil (5w-30/10w-30) around 3000-4000 miles, or usually whenever he gets to it. Drives the piss out of the car whenever he can.

His engine, last time i talked to him, had 130k miles, it is his daily driver. He still nets 20mpg. He has not done a compression check, or vacuum check, why bother if it runs perfect?

Just drive the damn car, it will take care of you.

Hey who is the old fart on the ground? :) J/K

I have the crappy old BHR ignition system. Well, it must be crappy since BHR has a new and improved production process, right? j/k ;) I generally find that prototypes are superior, after which 'value engineering' raises its ugly head.

Only to serve as an example;

The newest iterations of our wiring harness are vastly superior to the units we first sent out. That is one reason I am happily offering updating them and "refurbing" kits when the kits change hands in the resale market. There is nothing functionally improper with them, just that the first versions are butt-ugly and embarrassing to ME when compared to how I prep the harnesses these days. Strictly ego-driven.

I still think many of us are presuming WAY too much on this oil pressure/viscosity issue and I am always entertained by just how much conversation such topics will generate around here. Engman is one of the few remaining Gods in my eyes but his vast experience differs greatly from mine so he and Paul can take the lead on oil pressure/viscosity issues. However, I will be reluctant to jump into that particular realm until we at BHR can verify for ourselves exactly WTF is going on, if anything. On the other hand, BHR specializes in only the Renesis and the OBDII technology that operates the RX-8 and we are only starting to dip our collective toes into the older rotary world.

In my experience, we at BHR have subjected our personal engines to many of the same things which are said to be engine-killers around here but our engines perform exactly as we would expect. Maybe better, in some cases.

Just drive the damn car, it will take care of you.

Yeah tell that to those that have done all the maintenance on time and still had engine failures. For the most part on average, I would say that the series 1 8's usually don't make it to 100,000 miles (or much more) on the original engine doing the factory recommended maintenance. Just look on autotrader for higher mileage 8's and usually most of them are on new engines.

Yeah tell that to those that have done all the maintenance on time and still had engine failures. For the most part on average, I would say that the series 1 8's usually don't make it to 100,000 miles (or much more) on the original engine. Just look on autotrader for higher mileage 8's and usually most of them are on new engines.

You are correct, and the '04-'05 models will rarely make it past 50K miles. But we already know why that is and I was the one who presented the concept.

Yes sir.

^^ damn, I've only got 25k to go. ;)

This particular conversation and concept we are discussing here is wholly different.

Me too!
Damn it all! :cussing:
Looks for gun. :scratchhe

Yeah, I think some of us are just addicted to tinkering :)

So..........OD........what really surprised you with the exception of #3? :scratchhe

1st---bearing wear has NEVER been associated with oil pressure problems. That is a oil viscosity problem per Rick. Viscosity being related to film strenght of the oil. It is not a pressure thing at all.
2- the Renesis engine cannot maintain factory recommend oil pressures in it's oem condition
3- The 09's changed the lubrication system. Rational thinking would indicate that makes it better. Deductive reasoning is sometimes all you have to go on when you dont have factory resources to study a problem. For example--- does the ls1 coil and oem dwell times actually improve our ignition (no pot shots meant!) Well deductive reasoning and logic would say "Why-- Hell yea!" and I would agree.
4- prelimanary evidence indicated that the oil takes less time to warm up as it is scrubbing more heat out of the engine with the higher pressures. Continues under study.

1) Viscosity has an effect on pressures because the flow volume is fixed. However, bearing failures have been thought to be related to e-shaft flexing.
2) Who has demonstrated or proven this?
3) In your "LS coil" example, one would have to compare the electrical characteristics of each coil, use them in a variety of real-world applications, document the before/after, and and it certainly is a better process than "deductive reasoning". None of this has yet been done with regard to the lubrication system, as far as I am aware.
4) What "evidence"? If we are simply going to follow what Rick and Paul at Mazmart have to tell us, that is fair as they are really smart guys, but it hardly rises to the level of "evidence".

I just care not to be The Pied Piper of Idiotville any more than I already have been around here so I am remaining cautious on this particular issue.

In your opinion, do you think more pressure will hurt anything Charles?

Oh- I understand cautious.
And this is a good conversation
Let me add this please.
1- Improper viscosity/film strenght oil is thought to be the reason the front stationary bearing is having severe and irregular wear on many engines. It has been present on both of mine, one without the s.c. and one with the s.c. on tear down. My 2nd engine the s.c. one was bought used with approx 45K on it.
It is Rick E and Paul that has said this about the front bearing and I sure respect their findings.

2- what proof do you want ? I found this out in 2005 (i think that is right) after i installed my mechanical gauges. Factory recommended oil psi is 52psi at 3 K and oil temps at 212F with a 5W/20 oil. You will get between 48 and 50psi when the oil is at 180F--i didnt try 212F. Others have done the same. The oil pressure was taken approx 2 -3 inches straight above the factory check site. After seeing this I started using 5w 30 oil. and I remember the grief I got from informing others and recommending at least a 5w/30 oil--they didnt believe me and thought 5w/20 oil was fine to use. Oh well.

3- thats why i said "preliminary" . Evidence may have been the wrong word to use granted. Preliminary evidence is actually a contridiction (sic) in itself. Maybe I should have said "preliminary thoughts" instead. I appreciate any and all efforts to help keep my posts communicating in the proper context implied.

4- i think Mazda did a lot of testing in regard to the lubrication system and as a result the changes/needs were designed for the 09+ models. To the best of my knowledge all the oil channels and clearances in the 09's are the same as ours. The oil flow pattern changed some but the pressure increase changed dramatically. Even a higher by pass in the oil filter.

Is this a cure all? Heck no--never meant to be. Can this engine benefit from a higher oil pressure? Well I think it can. Isnt it funny that we have the highest output na rotor ever built yet we have the lowest oil pressure? + we have an additional 1 K rpms's?? Whats up with that Mazda?
What ever happened to that old belief that you need 10lbs of oil pressure for every 1k of rpm's?
Also with the old bypass's in place how much oil is being pumped back into the oil pan area without being filtered?
Then to really get subjective how about "certain people" that play with the rotor balance by pumping more oil to the rotors?
More to come ----
Great pics Don-----look at all that old oil----jeez.
OD

Good points OD.

As far as bearing wear goes, I believe what Mr E has communicated through Paul, it is Viscosity first and Oil Pressure a far second.

People want facts, I believe I have presented more than enough by comparing what has changed between Series and what has not (mechanically)...when a part number is the same the part IS THE SAME.

We know the changes, we can assume WHY, Mazda never change unless there is a reason.

There has been No basic changes to E-shaft or the internals of the Renny 1 to Renny 2, bearings or stationary gears.

To repeat there have been major changes to lubricity, oil metering, some to cooling (fan speeds and motors)

You can make your own conclusions....

You are correct, and the '04-'05 models will rarely make it past 50K miles. But we already know why that is and I was the one who presented the concept.

Would you mind pointing me to this information? I know I should search but I hope you agree it can be hard to find the correct information.

Thank you.

Okay, some initial tests, first including the data from a few days ago, then what I took a few minutes ago.

Ok, so I wanted to do a before/after on the op mod. I started with a 500 mile old oil change from the Mazda dealer, presumably the 5W/20. The previous owner used 10W/40, so the mixed viscosity, considering about 1/3 of the oil remains in the system was something like 7W/27 ... . The very same oil and filter were used for both runs. The car was run in my garage between idle and 3000 rpm to warm things up in a reasonable time:

Stock OP system:
Water Temp = 208F; Oil Temp = 203F; Air Temp = 37F
Pressure @ 900 rpm = 17 psi
Pressure @ 3000 rpm = 53 psi

REmedy OP system:
Water Temp = 208F; Oil Temp = 203F; Air Temp = 46F
Pressure @ 900 rpm = 17 psi
Pressure @ 3000 rpm = 57 psi

Next I changed the oil with 15W-40 Valvoline Blue, and replaced the series I oil filter with a new series II. The real viscosity, considering 45% of the oil remaining was lighter weight was something like 12W-35 (?). The following data are taken with the OP mod in place of course.

In the warmup phase, the temps and pressures at 3k rpm were:

Water Temp (F) Oil Temp (F) Oil Press (PSI)
----------------- ------------- ---------------
100 130 83
160 170 81
180 175 78
195 190 72
205 200 63
208 203 60

At a relatively steady 208F/203F the oil pressures vs rpm are:

rpm pressure
---- ---------
900 18
3000 60
4000 72
5000 87
6000 94

So the mod clearly boosts the max pressure over what was possible with the stock system. The pressure difference at 3k rpm, 7 psi, is most likely from the switch from "5W-20" to "15W-40". I was reluctant to run 'full out' in the garage, but wonder what the 7k 8k an 9ish k numbers look like.

Did any of you discover (have) any of the foam (condensation) crap in your oil pans? Any evidence that their is more than just some in the dip stick tube.
Just wondering, thanks.

Did any of you discover (have) any of the foam (condensation) crap in your oil pans? Any evidence that their is more than just some in the dip stick tube. Just wondering, thanks.

Mine was spotless, but it's not a daily driver and had been hiding from snow and road salt since the end of November.

Good data hiflite, can't wait to get this done.

In your opinion, do you think more pressure will hurt anything Charles?

Probably not as I have been using Mazmart's OP mod since I rebuilt my engine way back when. I won't know, fershure, until I tear it down again. Raising the oil pressure is also a fairly universally-accepted/suggested mod in the rotary world, btw.

There is one thing that I noticed that I am not sure about; I get a weird buzzing sound from the engine, internally, on cold-starts (and I KNOW it is not the air pump). I wonder is the heightened oil pressure causes this.

The "10 PSI/1K RPMs" rule-of-thumb was generally for piston engines, which have higher bearing loads than rotaries do, due to their design. Besides, the rotor bearings are HUGE compared to the rod bearings on a piston engine.

Interesting point; Pro-Stock engines in the NHRA/INRA use Honda rod journal sizes and bearings, which are smaller than 2" in diameter.

Mine died b4 50K mark. Well, I was using lighter oil 90% of its life so :(

20w50 ... 7K miles so far and counting.

Did any of you discover (have) any of the foam (condensation) crap in your oil pans? Any evidence that their is more than just some in the dip stick tube.
Just wondering, thanks.
No, I was very surprised when olddragger and I looked into the oil pan. I drive my car pretty hard and thought this may have contributed to a lack of milk. Mine is a daily driver and is tracked 9 months a year. I run 10w40 Dyno in the winter and 20w50 in the warmer months. I change my oil about every 2000 miles and less sometimes. Had a little milk at one point when I slowed my driving style down. Took that as a sign and kept my RPM's up.

Probably not as I have been using Mazmart's OP mod since I rebuilt my engine way back when. I won't know, fershure, until I tear it down again. Raising the oil pressure is also a fairly universally-accepted/suggested mod in the rotary world, btw.

There is one thing that I noticed that I am not sure about; I get a weird buzzing sound from the engine, internally, on cold-starts (and I KNOW it is not the air pump). I wonder is the heightened oil pressure causes this.

The "10 PSI/1K RPMs" rule-of-thumb was generally for piston engines, which have higher bearing loads than rotaries do, due to their design. Besides, the rotor bearings are HUGE compared to the rod bearings on a piston engine.

Interesting point; Pro-Stock engines in the NHRA/INRA use Honda rod journal sizes and bearings, which are smaller than 2" in diameter.


While I hope you engine lasts a while for you but I am anxiously awaiting your detailed tear down :)

both of these pan removals occured also after the oil was warmed some. One had driven a ways to get there. But, no there was not near the condensation that i saw in mine. Must have been my driving style and FI causing it. Since I have keep my oil temps up and taking longer drives to work--mine is now gone.
Some comments on the pics:
My finger (sorry I had cramps!:)) demonstates the level of oil left in the pan. The bottle represents the oil left in ONE pan after we removed it.
The picture that shows the rachet on the oil pan bolts is showing that you do NOT use much leverage when you tighten the oil pan bolts---they strip easily. Repeat tighten them slowly and without much leverage at all.
Damn I look old.
OD

Denny, at some point, I'll get back to the pics and post comments. Too damn busy right now at work and when I get home, Mrs OMS is going to put my ass back to work. :)

The picture that shows the rachet on the oil pan bolts is showing that you do NOT use much leverage when you tighten the oil pan bolts---they strip easily. Repeat tighten them slowly and without much leverage at all.
Damn I look old.
OD

Dare I say: Torque Wrench!

OD, just tell 'em your hair isn't white, it's sunbleached from all the time spent on your yacht.

how did you guess!

Don now you mind that little woman--crank up that John Deere tractor of yours and get er done dude
od

You are correct, and the '04-'05 models will rarely make it past 50K miles. But we already know why that is and I was the one who presented the concept.


Could you elaborate on why 04 and 05 8's rarely make it 50000 miles? What percentage of these are failing prior to 50k?

I have an 05 with 57000 miles... how concerned should I be?

^ I'm medium rare I guess :) 85K on an 09/03 build

Hey Paul, make sure you add the Mazmart oil pressure fix before you bolt that BHR oil pan back on.

Could you elaborate on why 04 and 05 8's rarely make it 50000 miles? What percentage of these are failing prior to 50k?

I have an 05 with 57000 miles... how concerned should I be?

My 05 went at 58K. Here's a rundown on the Georgia group. This is just from active members. I think there were probably a lot more that didn't post.

dbright007 - 8500 mi., (oil weight?) normal driving, AT, NA
WHENSON417 - miles?, (oil weight?) normal driving, MT, NA
olddragger - 52,000, (oil weight?) synthetic, light track, MT, SC
SilverEIGHT - 58,8000 mi., 5w20, light track, MT, NA
phlash - 66,000 mi., track, MT, NA
phlash - 600 mi. on replacement engine, MT, NA
XAreXAteX - 22,500
ATL-GP - 48,162 mi., 5w20, normal driving, MT, NA
Kurt Bob - 97,000 mi., Autocross/Track
x-attack - 70,500 mi.
9G Redline - 83,1--miles, RP 5w30 since 15k Spiritedly daily driven, NA MT.
L8APEX - 97,000 mi., Track
olddragger - light track, MT, SC

We have debated percentages but there's really no way to define it properly.

Could you elaborate on why 04 and 05 8's rarely make it 50000 miles? What percentage of these are failing prior to 50k?

I have an 05 with 57000 miles... how concerned should I be?

My 2005 currently has 93,500 miles on it with an origional engine, tranny, clutch etc.

The vast majority of engine failures are due to failed or failing seals whether they be apex or side seals. The reason the 2004 and 2005 models have had the highest failure rate is due to the lack of necessary OMP injection.

Emissions compliance is a huge issue when it comes to producing vehicles. Mazda had to deal with the fact that the rotary provides a lot of challenges in this area. Burning oil certainly made the situation worse and oil also can ruin your cat as well. So, faced with strict regulations and also new federal rules requiring emissions equipment to last 140,000 miles they made some compromises.

Mazda has since released various PCM reflashes which, along with other items, increases the OMP injection.

Should you be concerned? The only way to tell is to get a compression test. Otherwise, making sure you have the latest PCM flash and also pre-mix a bit and you'll be fine.

There are other measures you can take to help but they are for other threads. Feel free to contact BHR at any time and we can point you in the right direction.

maybe we should ask who HASNT had to have another engine?!
OD

He beat me to it!!

We have debated percentages but there's really no way to define it properly.ASH8 has an internal Mazda source who said its been 25%. A year or so ago, someone put up a poll (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=170659) here and there were about 28% with failed engines (out of 167 votes), most of which were 04s and some 05s. So the percentageo of 04 engines that have failed must be pretty damn high. Then of course there are tons of rebuilds that also failed before Mazda set up there own rebuild center.

Here's another angle;

In selling the 340+ BHR Ignition Systems I have found that of those who bolt the kit on and then contact me to say they saw no benefit and still experience hard starting when hot (this condition is a classic symptom of low compression but people always use coils as a way to swap parts as a diagnostic method), the vast majority of them are '04-'05 models and will, inevitably, test with low compression.

As a result of noticing this trend (but I haven't kept notes on it), I had to rewrite the installation instructions to say that coil upgrades are not intended to cure a poorly-running engine that has problems unrelated to weak coils.

I am also "curious" as to why 04 and 05 had an "issue" concerning failures...

From my point of view, apart from some very minor parts change the internals in ALL the RX-8's are the same, that is 2010 parts will fit an 04 RX-8.

But, yes the only differences as Todd said were the upping of MOP rates, but it still does not get to the middle of the Apex Seal...that's is why you must pre-mix.

The other reason 04-05 seem to have a "high" failure rate is also being 'skewed' somewhat because these were the 2 years where the 8 sold in much higher unit/sales numbers.

Hell...even the Rotor Housing LARGE 'O' rings (Square Orange/black inner) and Black Outer Housing O rings are ALL the Same for the past 25 years...

Yep, they are the exact same ones from a 1985 FC RX-7 and also the same in all FD RX-7's in ALL RX-8's.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=150811&stc=1&d=1264570952

My 2005 currently has 93,500 miles on it with an origional engine, tranny, clutch etc.

But a compression check showed low numbers on your engine right? So, that combined with your low dyno numbers means it's probably is on it's last legs right?

I am also "curious" as to why 04 and 05 had an "issue" concerning failures...

From my point of view, apart from some very minor parts change the internals in ALL the RX-8's are the same, that is 2010 parts will fit an 04 RX-8.

But, yes the only differences as Todd said were the upping of MOP rates, but it still does not get to the middle of the Apex Seal...that's is why you must pre-mix.

The other reason 04-05 seem to have a "high" failure rate is also being 'skewed' somewhat because these were the 2 years where the 8 sold in much higher unit/sales numbers.


Very true.

*Raise my hand* <---------------- part of the "low compression 2005 group"

Ash8, we all know how Mazda screwed the 03-08 RX-8 owners. increasing the OMP is just an "band-aid" thing, no way its a "once and for all" solution. Premix is a must.

Hell, I have a feeling even the 09+ models will need a premix ... just not as much as anything before (including all FD,FC,FB ... and so and so.)

I have never pre-mixed.

Mazda totally re-engineered their MOP system for a reason, and re-introduced a Center Oil Nozzle/Weeper in the Series II RX-8 which they have always had in every other rotary since they started Direct Apex Seal Oiling.

The S1 RX-8 was the first not to have a Middle Nozzle.

FC RX-7 was the first to use a Middle Nozzle.

Charlie, have you seen any concave wear on your Apex Seals like Paul (Mr E) at Mazmart have shown?

But a compression check showed low numbers on your engine right? So, that combined with your low dyno numbers means it's probably is on it's last legs right?


My compression was in the low 7's. It's far from it's "last leg" as I still have no problems running the piss out of it.

I have never pre-mixed.

Despite my own habits, I think the jury is still out as to whether pre-mixing is the save or not. We've seen failures from people who pre-mix and, like Charles, we see motors do just fine without it.

We've seen failures from people who pre-mix and, like Charles, we see motors do just fine without it.

You have seen failures from owners who have pre-mixed on a new motor from Day one???, or from owners who have started pre-mixing after their engines have done 40-50,000 miles???

I would like to hear and even better see a naked engine pre-mixed from the start of it's life...I thought that Jury was still out.

I pre-mixed, (heavily) since day One, July 23, 2003.

Unfortunately that engine blew up due to a poorly tuned turbo, and I never got to see the innards.....

Doh!

I have never pre-mixed.But you've maxed out your OMP with the AP (& Sohn w 2-stroke), right?

Inevitably??? Granted I've only got 25k on my '05, but it runs better the ever. Maybe I've got a 'good' one.

Here's another angle;

In selling the 340+ BHR Ignition Systems I have found that of those who bolt the kit on and then contact me to say they saw no benefit and still experience hard starting when hot (this condition is a classic symptom of low compression but people always use coils as a way to swap parts as a diagnostic method), the vast majority of them are '04-'05 models and will, inevitably, test with low compression.

As a result of noticing this trend (but I haven't kept notes on it), I had to rewrite the installation instructions to say that coil upgrades are not intended to cure a poorly-running engine that has problems unrelated to weak coils.

This is the most blissful thread I've read in a long time ... :hahano:

http://www.sustainy.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/ignorance-of-faculty.jpg

You have seen failures from owners who have pre-mixed on a new motor from Day one???, or from owners who have started pre-mixing after their engines have done 40-50,000 miles???

I would like to hear and even better see a naked engine pre-mixed from the start of it's life...I thought that Jury was still out.

You could wait for my engine to die. It was premixed starting at around 300 miles. I'm at 6000 miles now.

Might take a few years though, considering my driving rate :rofl:

Just so that everyone understands: Typical engine failures of an RX8 are not caused by oil starvation, bearing wear or anything of that nature. RX8s do not typically have engines fail by 50k (Even 04-05s). I would guess under 100k to be common (And that's an educated guess since we've probably built more than anyone outside of Mazda's reman program. Having said all that, apex seal, side seal and spring wear with excessive carbon buid-up are the main culprits that stop someone from driving their RX8 with enough concern to take it to the dealer, resulting in an engine replacement.

Now to the oil pressure mod kit: Extra oil pressure is a good thing on these motors, especially those driven harder and with extra loads being applied (Forced induction and tracked cars especially) when it results in 'proper' oil flow and improves motor cooling characteristics. I think it can only help with the excessive bearing wear that we've seen. I still put the main blame for that wear on oil viscosity choice since we've seen automatic motors with it as well (Generally not seeing as much high revs and or hard driving). Sharp people here have pointed out that these engines do run the lowest oil pressures that Mazda has run in a while and we are bringing that to the range it was at some point. This summer will be a good testing time to observe whether water temps are improved by the heat being removed through the oil system as well. One of the unplanned benefits of this mod are the extra potential safeguard in the event of failure of the front eccentric thermostat; the added pressure/supply would be quite welcome.

Here's the kit for those who may be interested:
http://www.mazmart.com/PartsList.aspx?id=29&n=NEW&m=6



Paul.

Here's the kit for those who may be interested:
http://www.mazmart.com/PartsList.aspx?id=29&n=NEW&m=6


Paul.

I'm batting 3 for 4 off that page. :cool:

RX8s do not typically have engines fail by 50k (Even 04-05s). I would guess under 100k to be common (And that's an educated guess since we've probably built more than anyone outside of Mazda's reman program. Having said all that, apex seal, side seal and spring wear with excessive carbon buid-up are the main culprits that stop someone from driving their RX8 with enough concern to take it to the dealer, resulting in an engine replacement.

And my comparitively miniscule rebuild experience with the Renesis reflects this exact same thing, so I concur. What I was saying was of the engines that I have consulted my customers on which ended up having low compression, the majority of them were from the '04-'05 model years.

As for my engine, I have never premixed. When I rebuilt my '04 model it had 49,540 miles on it and the apex seals were "troughed", big time, on the sides that contact the rotor tip. After rebuilding it I installed the Sohn OMP Adapter and Mazmart Oil Pressure mod and, several months later, the Cobb AP from MazdaManiac. I did not replace my rotor housings. My OMP volumes are not "maxxed" but they are about 3x what Mazda proscribed with the factory PCM. I currently have 110,000 miles, total, on the car/engine and it starts with a tap of the starter (warranty swap of battery/starter pursuant to the TSB) and laid down 213 rwhp as of last year, as well.

As for whether or not raising the oil system pressure "should" be done; I have seen no problems from it with my own engine, it is a HIGHLY suggested mod by people with far more rotary experience than any of us at BHR (and I am talking with as many as I can so as to try and develop a synopsis to present), and I have yet to tear my own engine down to see any potential results/effects from it.

Paul, check your PM. :)

hell, I might add this mod to my order :)

I'm batting 3 for 4 off that page. :cool:


Call me when you get a chance. I have a few things to discuss with you.

Paul.

Go figure. When an owner can rebuild his own engine, he can treat it like shit(not saying you do) and it will last forever. Then you give it to me or someone else and we do all the "necessary" tricks, and we get 40k out of it. Gotta love the way things work. It's like the car just knows lol

There are only a few simple mods that actually do some good for the Renesis/RX-8, improve longevity, and/or add power. This Mazmart mod may end up helping longevity. Maybe this product is why I have been able to abuse my engine by flooring it at 9,500 RPMs under load for 15 minutes and it still runs like a champ? :dunno:

I also have the Mazmart water pump.

Why do you suppose that both Mazmart and BHR offer few items for the RX-8? Neither of us wish to offer useless, blingy, things that are not actual improvements. We also promote one another's product for that same reason. Except I pay Paul more than he pays me but that is another story........ :lol2:

^ .... and I like Paul's projection better than Ray's: "...RX8s do not typically have engines fail by 50k (Even 04-05s)...." ;)

My OMP volumes are not "maxxed" but they are about 3x what Mazda proscribed with the factory PCM.Thanks. When one uses the AP to adjust OMP rates, how much flexibility is there? For example, can you you increase the rate differently at higher RPM or higher loads? Can you control the flow rate when there's minimal load and no gas being injected? Sorry if that's a dumb question, I'm known for those.

Thanks. When one uses the AP to adjust OMP rates, how much flexibility is there? For example, can you you increase the rate differently at higher RPM or higher loads? Can you control the flow rate when there's minimal load and no gas being injected? Sorry if that's a dumb question, I'm known for those.

Yes you can.

Yes you can.That's very cool. With the AP, a Sohn adapter, and a good tuner like MM who's knowledgable about rotaries, I would see no need for premix on a 2009+. But it will always be cheaper to simply use premix as insurance instead of investing in these mods/tuning. It will be interesting to see Ray Charles' next rebuild WRT to the necessity of premix on the Series I with AP and Sohn adapter.

Yeah, I am on the fence about the AP.

Best I can tell, the AP is the best way to tune the typical and not so typical RX8. Anything else is quite expensive and not discreet.

Paul.

There are only a few simple mods that actually do some good for the Renesis/RX-8, improve longevity, and/or add power. This Mazmart mod may end up helping longevity. Maybe this product is why I have been able to abuse my engine by flooring it at 9,500 RPMs under load for 15 minutes and it still runs like a champ? :dunno:

I also have the Mazmart water pump.

Why do you suppose that both Mazmart and BHR offer few items for the RX-8? Neither of us wish to offer useless, blingy, things that are not actual improvements. We also promote one another's product for that same reason. Except I pay Paul more than he pays me but that is another story........ :lol2:

Charles, you know I love you brother.

Paul. :)

That's very cool. With the AP, a Sohn adapter, and a good tuner like MM who's knowledgable about rotaries, I would see no need for premix on a 2009+. But it will always be cheaper to simply use premix as insurance instead of investing in these mods/tuning. It will be interesting to see Ray Charles' next rebuild WRT to the necessity of premix on the Series I with AP and Sohn adapter.

Can't use either (AP, a Sohn adapter) on S2. All that can be done is to premix S2's for precautionary measures. :fingersx:

Well I just got the Hymee so I will play with it for a while and see whats up with Protuner vs. AP.

Well I just got the Hymee so I will play with it for a while and see whats up with Protuner vs. AP.Curious why you chose that over an MM AP?

Can't use either (AP, a Sohn adapter) on S2. All that can be done is to premix S2's for precautionary measures. :fingersx:... yet!

Well I just got the Hymee so I will play with it for a while and see whats up with Protuner vs. AP.

(side note - That was not Protuner you purchased. Is that what you thought I was selling?)

uh oh?
:)
Have yall thought about what Paul has said?
They really havent seen engine FAILURE due to poor lubrication. They have seen wear/tear from lubrication issues that would sooner or later result in engine failure if not addressed.
The enige FAILURES are more from carboning/gunk issues if i remember correctly.
Weird-- but i am having more omp oil useage since i installed the Paul's Pump em Up. I dont know how that happened--I am probably just crazy.

Now to the oil pressure mod kit: Extra oil pressure is a good thing on these motors, especially those driven harder and with extra loads being applied (Forced induction and tracked cars especially) when it results in 'proper' oil flow and improves motor cooling characteristics. I think it can only help with the excessive bearing wear that we've seen. I still put the main blame for that wear on oil viscosity choice since we've seen automatic motors with it as well (Generally not seeing as much high revs and or hard driving). Sharp people here have pointed out that these engines do run the lowest oil pressures that Mazda has run in a while and we are bringing that to the range it was at some point.

Paul.

The thing I remain potentially confused on is the following. From what I'm seeing, the op mod only affects oil pressures above about 4500 rpm where the stock system starts bypassing oil flow directly into the sump. Much of our running time is below 4500 rpm.

However, what will change the oil pressure below this value is using a heavier weight oil. Based on what I've measured (given a low statistical uncertainty), I'd say that going from a 20W to a 40W oil raised the pressure at 3000 rpm by about 5-7 psi. (The difference at idle was too small to call.)

Pressure is pressure and not flow. If one thinks of this as an Ohms Law type circuit where Current = Voltage/Resistance, the garden hose analogy is Flow=Pressure/Resistance (the units are wrong, but the idea is right.) In that analogy, increasing the oil pressure by increasing the oil weight will result in a reduced flow. However, this isn't right for the engine case, because the oil pump is a constant displacement system, until the bypasses open. Up to this point, the system after the oil pump is in complete hydraulic lock until it has flowed through the engine and is released into the sump; the flow rate for any given rpm is completely fixed while in this mode.

This means that at an rpm below the opening pressure of the bypass system neither the oil pressure mod, nor the increased viscosity have any effect on flow compared to the stock system.

Once the bypass opens, there is no further increase in pressure with increasing rpm, but more importantly, there is no further increase in flow! The post-oil pump system is no longer "locked" but is "open".

Therefore, since increasing oil viscosity increases pressure, the bypass opens earlier than with the lighter viscosity, meaning that the oil flow is less than it would otherwise be for this transition region. So somewhere between 4-5,000 rpm, going from 20W to 40W is actually reducing flow. We spend a lot of time in this region too, ladies and gents.

The Mazmart mod allows the flow to increase with rpm much longer than with the stock system. (It was 94 psi @ 6,000 rpm for me, and still increasing, but I didn't go any higher in this short test). What's the upper limit, Paul? It also allows running higher viscosity oil without pay a flow penalty in the 4-5k rpm band. It will have no effect on flow compared to stock below about 4k rpm.

How's my thought process here?

How's my thought process here?


You're trying to strain my poor brain. At a quick glance, you appear to be making sensible assessments.

The upper limits with our mod? Safe :fingersx: Max at 120 perhaps, it depends on where you're reading, type of guages etc etc.

Paul.

(side note - That was not Protuner you purchased. Is that what you thought I was selling?)


:rollingla oops

(side note - That was not Protuner you purchased. Is that what you thought I was selling?)


:lol: No I know it's not man :lol: This was good deal but that would have been the deal of a lifetime. The scanalyser will be a toy to play with until I get into the Protuner. In getting the Scanalyser I have read up a lot and pretty much decided to go with the Protuner over the AP.

Curious why you chose that over an MM AP?


I'd rather not get in to that in this thread but PM if you have any input and want to discuss it :)

Hiflite - You state that there is going to be a flow decrease going from 20-40 weight oil in the 4-5k range. So by saying that, is the 0-4k, and 5k-9k range staying the same?

I'm not so familiar with how the bypass works (read: I'm stupid, and am getting lost in this discussion).

So let me explain what I understand:
Before the bypass opens - the flow is a constant rate defined by oil pump
Bypass opens - oil flow is diverted?

Sorry for being dense lol..

Hiflite - You state that there is going to be a flow decrease going from 20-40 weight oil in the 4-5k range. So by saying that, is the 0-4k, and 5k-9k range staying the same? for 0-4k yes ... and you got me thinking about 5k-9k, see below

I'm not so familiar with how the bypass works (read: I'm stupid, and am getting lost in this discussion).

So let me explain what I understand:
Before the bypass opens - the flow is a constant rate defined by oil pump Bypass opens - oil flow is diverted? yes

Sorry for being dense lol.. it's a complicated subject

I'm still trying to get it straight, but getting more convinced this is the right way to think about it. Under the 4-5k range, which is saying under the range where the bypass opens, the flow rate, me thinks, is the same regardless of the viscosity (within reason). When the bypass opens, the flow no longer increases with increasing pump speed, because now part of the flow is diverted from the pump directly into the oil sump without having gone through the engine.

Above 4-5k rpm, in terms of *flow*, I'm not absolutely sure what happens when comparing 40W vs 20W, but am suspecting that one also gets a reduction in flow with 40W vs 20W.

Let's try an intuitive analogy. Imagine your garden hose connected to a city water plant, where the pressure in your pipes is say 80 psi in the case where there is no water flow at all. If you measure the pressure just before the nozzle of the hose, it will read 80 psi with everything shut off. Open the nozzle a little, the pressure will drop a little and the water shoots out a great distance but with very low volume moving per second. (Think squirt gun.) If you want to fill a bucket, open the nozzle wide, the flow goes up, but the pressure drops.

Now tee into the hose, and put a pressure regulator upstream of the nozzle, that controls the water pressure in the hose to 80 psi by letting enough water out before reaching the nozzle. Open the nozzle "midway". In the analogy, this is our car, where the hose nozzle represents the resistance of bearings and oil passages to flow. If we increase the house pressure to 120 psi, the flow through the nozzle remains the same, because the pressure in the hose is held constant by the open regulator. If we drop the house pressure below 80 psi, the regulator entirely closes, but the flow drops because it can't add any pressure to maintain it.

Go back to a house pressure of 120 psi The bypass is open and the hose sees 80 psi. (analogous to running say 7k rpm in the car).Now suppose the water company decides to pump chocolate syrup at 120 psi, and the slug of syrup makes it's way through the system. When the slug hits the nozzle, what happens? The resistance to flow increases and the hose pressure tries to increase, but is stopped at 80 psi by the regulator. Then what happens? The flow is reduced.

The viscosity difference between water and syrup is of course much larger than between 20W and 40W oil, but I'm thinking the conclusion must be the same:

When the system is pressure regulated (above that 4-5k rpm range), the higher the oil viscosity, the lower the flow.

Other factors come into play of course, having to do with the details of oil lubrication properties, and flow does not immediately connect with lubrication, otherwise why not run 0W oil? The flow considerations do suggest however that going from 20W to 40W oil alone is not the unconditional benefit it seems at first.

If however, one does the Mazmart mod, it moves the oil system into a constant-displacement mode (flow related only to rpm) for essentially the entire operating band of the engine, with both 20W and 40W oils. It seems to me to be a really good idea. (I might change my mind if I see the oil filter shooting through the hood at 9k revs though --- just kidding!)

I'd rather not get in to that in this thread but PM if you have any input and want to discuss it :)I thought you already had the Protuner. The only input I have is that a free MM custom tune seems to make the AP very valuable for RX-8 owners. I'm not very familiar with Protuner, but please feel free to PM me about its advantages over an MM AP.

, otherwise why not run 0W oil? The flow considerations do suggest however that going from 20W to 40W oil alone is not the unconditional benefit it seems at first.

If however, one does the Mazmart mod, it moves the oil system into a constant-displacement mode (flow related only to rpm) for essentially the entire operating band of the engine, with both 20W and 40W oils. It seems to me to be a really good idea. (I might change my mind if I see the oil filter shooting through the hood at 9k revs though --- just kidding!)

The prevailing reason that we will still insist on nothing less than a 30 (Preferably 40-50) is the advantages offered by the improved hydrodynamic wedge of higher viscosity. This prevents the most typical bearing wear (Not oilflow at startup like a lot of people think) in a rotary.

Please film any flying filters you encounter :rofl:.

Paul.

So, Idemitsu Rotary Engine Oil 20W-50 is a good choice for the new engine, right?

So, Idemitsu Rotary Engine Oil 20W-50 is a good choice for the new engine, right?

That works. A little expensive I imagine but I don't know all it's specifics compared to the competition.

Paul.

Well, you know me... :D:

Hey OD, are you still running the diesel oil?

Responding mostly to hiflite's previous post - not quoting since it's GINORMOUSSS!

To my understanding, the difference in viscosity of 20 weight vs 40 weight at normal operating temperature (180-220) is pretty close, so I would imagine the loss of flow would be relatively minimal. And 0W doesn't always mean it has lower viscosity - it sometimes has the same, just better flow rate at lower temperatures (I think below 32F).

I'll look into the Mazmart oil pump in the future though, better safe than sorry!

Yep i am still trucking! Just sent my 2nd uoa in.

Hiflite--man you are thinking to much!! Making me dizzy and my head hurts.
You see the way i understand it is that our oil pump is a constant volume pump. No matter what the viscosity of the oil. it is going to pump the same volume of oil. Also that is the reason pressure goes up with heavier viscosity! You are pumping the same amount (flow) of a heavier oil --so more resistance --so more pressure required to flow the same volumne.
Even with the oem bypass the max oil psi occurs much higher than 4-5K so using Paul's Pump it Up mod will not reduce oil flow at all. The pump actually seems to have the capacity to continue to increase the pressure a little even when the by pass is open some. Remember it is not an open/closed bypass--its gradual.
I need my meds now.
OD

Mazda totally re-engineered their MOP system for a reason, and re-introduced a Center Oil Nozzle/Weeper in the Series II RX-8 which they have always had in every other rotary since they started Direct Apex Seal Oiling.

The S1 RX-8 was the first not to have a Middle Nozzle.

FC RX-7 was the first to use a Middle Nozzle.

Charlie, have you seen any concave wear on your Apex Seals like Paul (Mr E) at Mazmart have shown?

I've been wondering if, at rebuild time, it might be possible to use the S2 rotor housings and plumb the S1 MOP into these connections for S1 owners (rather than replace the PCM and all the other S2-specific plumbing); but I've been concerned that this might, assuming its even possible, result in inadequate flow for all three nozzles.

uh oh?
:)
Have yall thought about what Paul has said?
They really havent seen engine FAILURE due to poor lubrication. They have seen wear/tear from lubrication issues that would sooner or later result in engine failure if not addressed.
The enige FAILURES are more from carboning/gunk issues if i remember correctly.
Weird-- but i am having more omp oil useage since i installed the Paul's Pump em Up. I dont know how that happened--I am probably just crazy.

Would the increased pressure result in better dynamic balance at high RPM?

Denny, do you think that the increased pressure might be force-feeding your MOP? Alternately, since you're using a high viscosity oil, before the OP mod, could your MOP been starved for feed oil?

I dont have any way of proving that the rotors are better balanced with a higher oil pressure---wish I did! Silkilicious does continue. I hate when I say such subjective things. It is I was just impressed and too me it was really apparate---but hey I am weird anyway.
Thats the thing about the omp. It is also a fixed volume pump. maybe it wasnt getting enough oil to itbefore? But wouldnt that cause air bubbles in the lines? I dont have a clue and it doesnt make sense. Maybe I am imagining this--but it sure seems like it. I am having to add more oil now a days.
OD

....Alternately, since you're using a high viscosity oil, before the OP mod, could your MOP been starved for feed oil? i don't think the heavier oil is the only factor or biggest factor in this case.
I got my car on Oct 31, probably with 5W20. I changed it to 5W30 and then to 10W30 and consistently use very little oil.

Thats the thing about the omp. It is also a fixed volume pump. maybe it wasnt getting enough oil to itbefore? But wouldnt that cause air bubbles in the lines? I dont have a clue and it doesnt make sense. Maybe I am imagining this--but it sure seems like it. I am having to add more oil now a days.
OD

Yes OD, I don't have concrete evidence, but I am almost certain this was an issue for owners not keeping their engine oil pan full, oil starvation at the MOP is/was an issue for the MOP and Engine supply also.;)

Yep i am still trucking! Just sent my 2nd uoa in.

Hiflite--man you are thinking to much!! Making me dizzy and my head hurts.
You see the way i understand it is that our oil pump is a constant volume pump. No matter what the viscosity of the oil. it is going to pump the same volume of oil. Also that is the reason pressure goes up with heavier viscosity! You are pumping the same amount (flow) of a heavier oil --so more resistance --so more pressure required to flow the same volumne.
Even with the oem bypass the max oil psi occurs much higher than 4-5K so using Paul's Pump it Up mod will not reduce oil flow at all. The pump actually seems to have the capacity to continue to increase the pressure a little even when the by pass is open some. Remember it is not an open/closed bypass--its gradual.
I need my meds now.
OD

Because it's a constant displacement pump, the viscosity has no effect on volume through the important part of the oil system, until the bypass opens. After that, while the volume per pump revolution remains constant, part of that volume goes straight back through the bypass to the oil pan, without going through the bearings, etc. As you increase rpm, past the ~80 psi bypass setting on the stock system, the oil flow going through the engine no longer increases with rpm. My measurements on the stock system shows that the oil pressure rises until 4-5k rpm where it reaches ~80 and stays flat from there. The transition from the "increasing flow increasing oil pressure" mode (good) to the "constant flow constant oil pressure" mode (bad) occurs when the bypass valve opens to keep the op from rising further. With a fully warmed engine, I'm showing a 5-7 psi increase in pressure at 3k rpm where the bypass is fully closed, when going from 20W to 40W oil. The pressure increase is due to the increased resistance encountered by the heavier oil flowing though passages and bearings. This pressure increase will serve to open the bypass earlier than with the lighter oil meaning that the maximum flow achieved will be lower than the 20 W from that point on.

Of course, as Paul points out, the hydrodynamic properties of the oil are not to be neglected and there have been many good discussions as to why the ~40W oils are better in this regard than 20W. As a minor point perhaps, stupendously huge flow, that you would get at say 500 psi, would also destroy bearing lubrication properties.

Yeah, I thimk two much! Meds help ....

Responding mostly to hiflite's previous post - not quoting since it's GINORMOUSSS!

To my understanding, the difference in viscosity of 20 weight vs 40 weight at normal operating temperature (180-220) is pretty close, so I would imagine the loss of flow would be relatively minimal. And 0W doesn't always mean it has lower viscosity - it sometimes has the same, just better flow rate at lower temperatures (I think below 32F).

I'll look into the Mazmart oil pump in the future though, better safe than sorry!

With a fully warmed engine, I'm showing a 5-7 psi increase in pressure at 3k rpm where the bypass is fully closed, when going from 20W to 40W oil. The pressure increase is due to the increased resistance encountered by the heavier oil flowing though passages and bearings. The flow in that case is identical. Now increase rpm, until the bypass just starts to open with the 40W at 80 psi. At that same rpm, the pressure is just ~73 psi. Now increase rpm until the 20W oil is reading 80 psi. That difference in rpm represents increased flow in the 20W case but no increased for the 40W case. Based on that ~10% difference in rpm, I'd estimate the flow resistance for the 40W is about 10% higher than for the 20W at full operating temperatures.

So, Idemitsu Rotary Engine Oil 20W-50 is a good choice for the new engine, right?

Only got 1 15w50 Mobil1 Left.

Hmm, need to order some new oil ...

should I try Eneos, or Idemitsu ? ... hmm ...

I think I understand what you are saying ole hard thinker!
You are getting max oil pressure at 4-5K? We havent seen that at oil temps of 180F and above. Me thinks it is over 6K that the max pressure is being seen here at the above temps.
True in that the oem bypass pressure will be reached sooner with a higher viscosity of oil OR a cooler oil temp(which affects the viscosity etc) and since we have a pressure regulated system it would be very lodgical to say that if the regulator opens sooner then there will be less flow since the bypass is dumping. But is that all that happens?
I think also you have to consider that the oil pump with the higher viscosity oil can produce more overall pressure? Would that not change things?

Let me preach on it...........:Eyecrazy:

Ok if with a 20 w oil the bypass doesnt open for example until 6K but the 40W will open at 5K--If I am understanding correctly what you are saying is from 5K to 6K there would be in comparison less oil flow/volume pumping between 5-6K?
If that is a correct interprtation then I believe one thing has not been remembered. The 40 w oil example will increase in pressure between 5-6K even though the by pass has been cracked open. Once again it is not an on/off valve--its a gradual opening. The overall pressure increase the 40 w allows the pump to make provides makes up for the earier bypass opening?
Does that make sense.
More meds---Jeez.:)

I think I understand what you are saying ole hard thinker!
Hiflite: Must be the meds!
You are getting max oil pressure at 4-5K? We havent seen that at oil temps of 180F and above. Me thinks it is over 6K that the max pressure is being seen here at the above temps.
Hiflite: Odd, I'm not measuring that at 200F, but gage calibrations and such play a role too. The point is that the oil system operated in two distinctly different modes: bypass open, bypass closed. It doesn't matter how much the bypass valve opens, the "equations of state" become totally different: "flow = (rpm x (oil pump displacement / rev))" vs. "pressure = constant".
True in that the oem bypass pressure will be reached sooner with a higher viscosity of oil OR a cooler oil temp(which affects the viscosity etc) and since we have a pressure regulated system it would be very lodgical to say that if the regulator opens sooner then there will be less flow since the bypass is dumping. But is that all that happens?
Hiflite: I hope so ...
I think also you have to consider that the oil pump with the higher viscosity oil can produce more overall pressure? Would that not change things?
Hiflite: With the bypass open, no. Closed? Maybe so. The lobes of our displacement oil pumps have slight gaps between them, which means a heavier weight oil would pump slightly more volume per shaft rotation than with a lighter weight.

Let me preach on it...........:Eyecrazy:
Hiflite: Let me get some nickels for the collection plate ...

Ok if with a 20 w oil the bypass doesnt open for example until 6K but the 40W will open at 5K--If I am understanding correctly what you are saying is from 5K to 6K there would be in comparison less oil flow/volume pumping between 5-6K?
Hiflite: Yep!

If that is a correct interprtation then I believe one thing has not been remembered. The 40 w oil example will increase in pressure between 5-6K even though the by pass has been cracked open. Once again it is not an on/off valve--its a gradual opening. The overall pressure increase the 40 w allows the pump to make provides makes up for the earier bypass opening?
Hiflite: The instant the bypass valve cracks open, any possible pumping effeciency gain from the 40 wt in the oil pump goes away. Besides if one argues that reducing the lobe leakage results in better volumes (pressure at a given rpm), then you also have to argue that there is less leakage around the front op regulator piston, thereby increasing pressure and causing the piston to open more than with the 20W.

Does that make sense.
Hiflite: Depends on the meds!

More meds---Jeez.:)
Hiflite: Saturday morning cartoons too!

Let's try this, though I have to make up some data. At a relatively steady 208F/203F the oil pressures vs rpm with the mazmart mod are:

rpm.....40Wpsi......20Wpsi
----.....--------......--------
900.......18..............17
3000.....60..............53
4000.....72.............(64)
5000.....87.............(78)
6000.....94.............(84)

The () data are a guess. I wish I'd measured it, but too late for the moment. (Data anyone?) Assuming the stock bypass regulates to 80 psi, this chart for the stock system would look like:

rpm.....40Wpsi......20Wpsi
----.....--------......--------
900.......18..............17
3000.....60..............53
4000.....72.............(64)
5000....(80)...........(78)
6000....(80)...........(80)

The 20W is staying in the "good" range of flow longer than the 40W case. Again, flow it not the only thing to consider. With a stock system, I'd have no worries going to 30W, some worries going to 40W, and a lotta worries going to 50W. If I wanted to go to 50W, I'd consider the Mazmart mod mandatory. Just my opinion of course, but every step of this week's working-the-problem seems to say this mod is a really good idea, especially if you want to use heavier weight oils.

With the bypass open, no. Closed? Maybe so. The lobes of our displacement oil pumps have slight gaps between them, which means a heavier weight oil would pump slightly more volume per shaft rotation than with a lighter weight.

Actually the other way around, the vacuum caused by trying to pull the thicker oil into the pump would bring the leakage around the lobes roughly into line with the lower weight oil, but the increase in vacuum = more microcavitation = slightly less oil pumped.

Actually the other way around, the vacuum caused by trying to pull the thicker oil into the pump would bring the leakage around the lobes roughly into line with the lower weight oil, but the increase in vacuum = more microcavitation = slightly less oil pumped.

Good point; offsetting penalties. In the absence of measurements, I'd guess that vicosity differences wrt the oil pump itself are rather minor.

I finally see what you are thinking!!!!!!
The tables did it--appreciate the work.
Let me see if i can point out what i am trying to say.
Your table indicates that the max pressure obtained is totally regulated by the bypass. Once the 80psi is reached the pressure cannot go any higher according to the oem table.
What i am saying is that is not entirely true. For example if the bypass is pre set to be fully open at 80psi, with a 40 weight oil our oil pump has the capacity to increase the pressure even more. Not much mind you but some none the less. Its not a direct stop like that.
We both 100% agree though that the Mazmart (Paul's Pump em Up) mod is an extremely good mod to do.!!
olddragger

What i am saying is that is not entirely true. For example if the bypass is pre set to be fully open at 80psi, with a 40 weight oil our oil pump has the capacity to increase the pressure even more. Not much mind you but some none the less. Its not a direct stop like that.

OD
Can you expand on this thought a little more? It's not clear to me why the pressure would be higher based on different viscosities if the relief valve is fully open at 80psi. Shouldn't the pressure max out at the same level, 80 psi in this case, for any viscosity?

I finally see what you are thinking!!!!!!
The tables did it--appreciate the work.
Let me see if i can point out what i am trying to say.
Your table indicates that the max pressure obtained is totally regulated by the bypass. Once the 80psi is reached the pressure cannot go any higher according to the oem table.
What i am saying is that is not entirely true. For example if the bypass is pre set to be fully open at 80psi, with a 40 weight oil our oil pump has the capacity to increase the pressure even more. Not much mind you but some none the less. Its not a direct stop like that.
We both 100% agree though that the Mazmart (Paul's Pump em Up) mod is an extremely good mod to do.!!
olddragger

You're likely right, the op will 'sneak up' above the target regulated pressure as the piston valve is overwhelmed with the increased flow from the pump at ~7k+ revs. I wish I'd done more extensive measurements. The highest op I remember seeing with the stock system and warm oil on my gage was about 84 psi at some high rpm which is above the regulated pressure, but not by much. I think we agree we'd rather be seeing 100+ psi that we'll be getting with Paul's magic mod. When he was talking about it back in Nov/Dec, I was fretting about the cost. At $55, he turned this into a major no-brainer. At our advanced age, no-brainers are much appreciated! (Pump em Up) = (Renny Viagra)? :smoker:

It's really hard to convince people that this is of any benefit and most think it's a negative with comments like, "you are going to get oil leaks". Doesn't matter what I say, in their minds, I #@C$%d up by installing this kit. I don't know all the technical details like you guys do. I'm lucky enough to have OD close by so I trust his judgement in a lot of things. I've always hated the lack of oil pressure on this car and when Denny told me about the mod, I couldn't wait to pump it up. So now it's on "viagra" as HiFlite says and seeing the oil pressure riding at 90-100 as I'm driving on the interstate makes me satisfied that lubrication is at a more proper number. So you guys please keep banging out the details and I will just enjoy the ride. Can't wait to see how she reacts when I get her on the track in March at Road Atlanta. I want to know if there is any change in my oil consumption. I'm hoping there is more.

Hiflite---I do love no brainers as that does directly match my intellectual ability:)
Hey---- i know a good example I just remembered. 9K converted from dual coolers to a single cooler and in doing so lost a lot of the bends and turns the oem system has. As a result, that is relative to this conversation, he was able to see 90psi on the oem bypass! Why didnt I remember this before. It would have help unscramble my old brain.

Now back to the mod---glad you agree Don. I to am interested in what is going to be seen in march at Road Atlanta. I have not observed or seen one single negative thing about this mod.
One day young folks are going to start listening to us old timers----------maybe?
OD

This is a short 13 sec vid showing the increased oil pressure. I have more vid but I don't think it's good enough to present. I'm going to shoot more using a camera mount with the entire warm up sequence and a short drive. That should be good enough to bore you to sleep.

http://vimeo.com/9120501

Oh Jeeze, my head has gone loopy :crazy:after reading all the pages of this post!

As a brand new owner of an '06 w/34k miles, this thread scares the hell outta me! :Eyecrazy: Especially since I have no clue of it's oil usage history, but a big 5w-20 written in feminine cursive on the manual cover. Now I'm itchin' to do a compression check! (Oh and when I do a search for more on this topic, I get an overwhelming amount of thread results...if you've got specific stickies and links I'd sure appreciate it!)

Here's my question though...say we do this mod, (which sounds great btw) and up the oil viscosity used, will this void the OEM or additional warranty on the car? While I have confidence I could do this mod easily and correctly, I would still rather it age out gracefully and the OEMs rebuild it, than for me to pay ~6k in parts to rebuild it myself!

Hey---- i know a good example I just remembered. 9K converted from dual coolers to a single cooler and in doing so lost a lot of the bends and turns the oem system has. As a result, that is relative to this conversation, he was able to see 90psi on the oem bypass! Why didnt I remember this before. It would have help unscramble my old brain.


Yup, different oil coolers and lines = over 90psi on even a stock system, so the bypass might not be such a huge problem.
Anyhow, the flow doesn't stop increasing when a bypass cracks open, it just increases at a reduced amount.

Oh Jeeze, my head has gone loopy :crazy:after reading all the pages of this post!

As a brand new owner of an '06 w/34k miles, this thread scares the hell outta me! :Eyecrazy: Especially since I have no clue of it's oil usage history, but a big 5w-20 written in feminine cursive on the manual cover. Now I'm itchin' to do a compression check! (Oh and when I do a search for more on this topic, I get an overwhelming amount of thread results...if you've got specific stickies and links I'd sure appreciate it!)

Here's my question though...say we do this mod, (which sounds great btw) and up the oil viscosity used, will this void the OEM or additional warranty on the car? While I have confidence I could do this mod easily and correctly, I would still rather it age out gracefully and the OEMs rebuild it, than for me to pay ~6k in parts to rebuild it myself!

In Short --- Yes, They will void your warranty BUT ----

There is almost no way to tell if you did this mod or not unless they check your oil pressure with a "real" gauge. or the Tech is smart enough to spot the oil pan gasket area.

So if I were you, I would get a compression test done first. BTW do NOT let the Dealership feed you with a "passed/failed", get the "EXACT" numbers and RPM and post them up here.

Oh Jeeze, my head has gone loopy :crazy:after reading all the pages of this post!

As a brand new owner of an '06 w/34k miles, this thread scares the hell outta me! :Eyecrazy: Especially since I have no clue of it's oil usage history, but a big 5w-20 written in feminine cursive on the manual cover. Now I'm itchin' to do a compression check! (Oh and when I do a search for more on this topic, I get an overwhelming amount of thread results...if you've got specific stickies and links I'd sure appreciate it!)

Here's my question though...say we do this mod, (which sounds great btw) and up the oil viscosity used, will this void the OEM or additional warranty on the car? While I have confidence I could do this mod easily and correctly, I would still rather it age out gracefully and the OEMs rebuild it, than for me to pay ~6k in parts to rebuild it myself!

I started another thread in an attempt to summarize the bizillion posts on the subject of increasing engine life, while showing some concern for the warranty issue.

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?p=3411503#post3411503

I started another thread in an attempt to summarize the bizillion posts on the subject of increasing engine life, while showing some concern for the warranty issue.

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?p=3411503#post3411503

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll find somewhere I trust to do the compression test, meanwhile, I'll go read through that thread...

...
Thats the thing about the omp.................. I am having to add more oil now a days.
OD

Great news! It is definitely an advantage by the oil higher pressure. (I think.)

These are my unscientific numbers:

RE-medy Kit from Mazmart:
10w40 Dyno before and after with the pressures checked just before and after the install of the kit. Autometer Electronic oil pressure gauge. Engine temps around 185º +/- 5º

Before Install:
750 RPM =25 lbs (Idle)
3000 RPM = 50 lbs
4000 RPM = ?
5000 RPM = 74 lbs with 75 being max.

After Install:
750 RPM = 25 lbs (Idle)
3000 RPM = 78 lbs
4000 RPM =100
5000 RPM = 110 lbs +/- ? (pegged the gauge)

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151115&stc=1&d=1265245161

These are my unscientific numbers:

RE-medy Kit from Mazmart:
10w40 Dyno before and after with the pressures checked just before and after the install of the kit. Autometer Electronic oil pressure gauge. Engine temps around 185º +/- 5º

Before Install:
750 RPM =25 lbs (Idle)
3000 RPM = 50 lbs
4000 RPM = ?
5000 RPM = 74 lbs with 75 being max.

After Install:
750 RPM = 25 lbs (Idle)
3000 RPM = 78 lbs
4000 RPM =100
5000 RPM = 110 lbs +/- ? (pegged the gauge)



Interesting and pretty consistent with what I got. I tested my electric/analogue gauges before I installed them. Using a good ol' meat thermometer and a pan of heated water, I initially found the temperature gages to be 'off'. I noticed however that the readings depended on where I ran the ground wire, so I ran separate ground wires from each of the senders directly back to the gauge heads, which then made them pretty accurate. For the oil pressure gauge, I cobbled together some fittings and fed the pressure sender with compressed air and compared the readings with a couple of different independent gauges. Those readings were way off above about 50 psi, so I bought a new electric/digital unit for the oil pressure gauge which seems to be fine. With the stock op system, it was peaking at around 80 psi vs your 75, which could be a gauge variation or a variation in our engines. Given this difference and that you were running 185 deg vs 205 deg, I think our readings are showing the same thing: The stock system is 'peaking' in pressure (and therefore flow) in the 4-5k rpm range, for colder, heavier oil, this peak is lower, and that the Mazmart mod removes this limitation.

I am glad my gauge goes to 150psi. I am curious if my gauges are accurate.

Considering the somewhat ease of installing this mod, why do you think Mazda would not have something like this to put on the series 1 cars to help with oil concerns? Emissions concerns?

Considering the somewhat ease of installing this mod, why do you think Mazda would not have something like this to put on the series 1 cars to help with oil concerns? Emissions concerns?

Because as far as Mazda's concerned; there is no problem. They are not having engine failures due to this during a warranty period.

Paul.

I mentioned this problem to a local shop that works a lot of with Rx-7s. They showed me a few cars with these mods, and they told me they have zero problems with bearing wear;

http://www.turblown.net/store/index.php?categoryID=14

loop line mod and the coated bearings

I mentioned this problem to a local shop that works a lot of with Rx-7s. They showed me a few cars with these mods, and they told me they have zero problems with bearing wear;

http://www.turblown.net/store/index.php?categoryID=14

loop line mod and the coated bearings

Some interesting stuff on that site.

Paul.

what kind of coatings is that?
OD

Coating Info (http://www.turblown.net/coat.html)

I once watched an older dodge hemi run a low 9 quarter mile with the gold coatings on its headers. When the driver got back to the pit, I asked him about the coatings. He told me to see how long I could hold my hand on the bare exhaust piping. Of course I was very hesitant, but they felt equal to ambient temp less than two minutes after a run... Needless to say they are pretty effective.

Damn that engine loop line mod is expensive but looks nice.

Funny - I already have that loop line mod but it was done for an entirely different reason ......

Funny - I already have that loop line mod but it was done for an entirely different reason ......


For what? :)

/\ to stop the f'n oil leak from a cracked housing at the dowell .

Ah, I see. Did it work?

/\ absolutely

We've used an oil loop line like that (Front and rear stationaries getting fed without passing through the dowels) but for yet another different reason. Some here may know why :scratchhe.

Paul. :)

A few of our group got together yesterday for a "tuner" day. We installed 2 of the modified oil bypass kits on members cars and had some surprising findings. It was very interesting.

Ok some of the findings that we saw are:

1- Guess how much oil is left in the pan after it has been drained until it stops dripping?. The car is up level on jack stands , dealerships etc would also have it level if they change your oil.
Would you believe 1LITER of oil oil is left behind in the pan.

I like my "drive way ramp" more every oil change...
My driveway is about 25 degrees incline up to the garage, I put my car ramps where the driveway "ramp" meets the flat of the garage; I get lots of oil out.

:)

can i change oil at your house? :)
OD

This is what I want. It's a syphon that hooks up to your air pump. Just stick a plastic tube down your dip sticks tube until it hits the bottom of your oil pan an pump for about 15 min. It will drain that puppy dry without jacking up your car, taking off a drain plug or tilting your car on it's side to get as much out as possible. Saw it at a friends house last weekend.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151527&stc=1&d=1266018609

I have a mityvac, and loved it for my past cars. Mine was a hand pump one, unlike the picture which uses compressed air. The dipstick tube on my 2004 is too small for the tubes that came with my mity to go down. (I think they have bigger dipstick tubes on later cars though.)

I also have the attachment to suck brake fluid out, which also worked great on past cars. With this car I have to step on the brake, making it a two person operations. Don't know why that is.

I have a mityvac, and loved it for my past cars. Mine was a hand pump one, unlike the picture which uses compressed air. The dipstick tube on my 2004 is too small for the tubes that came with my mity to go down. (I think they have bigger dipstick tubes on later cars though.)

I also have the attachment to suck brake fluid out, which also worked great on past cars. With this car I have to step on the brake, making it a two person operations. Don't know why that is.

Put on stainless Speedbleeders (Dot Com), it is then a one person Job..

i also have a hand vac to suck the oil out.
It does get more oil out and a hell of a lot less messy.
OD

you don't need speed bleeders, just run the bleed hose up several inches higher than the bleed nipple and then into the bottom of the catch container, open the bleeder slightly, then push & release the pedal slowly, the column of brake fluid in the rise above the nipple keeps air from coming back in, been doing it that way all my life

which also has nothing to do with this thread

bleeder bottle --have also used them and its real easy--still use it for the clutch and master cylinder. We are showing our age team--lol
OD

As Denny said, I have pics and vids to present. Very good session and good observations. I will try to get some of this up by this evening.


Hi, I have too purchased the mazmart oil pressure kit. I am not stucked at how to insert the washer? In your picture, it has not stated how you pull out the pin and put back.

Do I need to drill and well back etc? Appreciate if someone can advice on how to insert the washer into the front reg.


Thanks.

If I have missed any thread that had stated this, kindly refer.

I am not a regular in the forum.

Probably should have checked all these before making purchase. :-(

Hi, I have too purchased the mazmart oil pressure kit. I am not stucked at how to insert the washer? In your picture, it has not stated how you pull out the pin and put back.

Do I need to drill and well back etc? Appreciate if someone can advice on how to insert the washer into the front reg.


Thanks.

here u go:
http://www.aaroncake.net/rx-7/shimoil.htm

But isn't the Mazmart kit suppose to be an upgraded bypass kit which has already has this washer built in?

The link i posted is to mod the stock regulator. If we need to do the same for Mazmart kit, why don't just mod the stock kit?

There are to units you are working with here. The larger one has already been done. Notice the "RE" (Rick Engman's initials) which means he has taken it apart already.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152642&stc=1&d=1267864523

This shows the old one in place toward the front of the engine, the one to the rear gets the loose washers.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152644&stc=1&d=1267864593

The loose washers are for the second one. After unscrewing it, you just drop the washers into it and screw it back together.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=152643&stc=1&d=1267864290

Hope that helps.

There are to units you are working with here. The larger one has already been done. Notice the "RE" (Rick Engman's initials) which means he has taken it apart already.



Thanks for clarifying. I had the one with "RE" on it, which means I do not need to do anything to the regulator.....

"This shows the old one in place toward the front of the engine, the one to the rear gets the loose washers."

Do you mean there are two regulators? one bigger(place towards front of engine) and the other smaller(placed behind).

The washers are meant for the smaller one and all I need to do is to unscrew and put in the washer. No need for any drill nor complicated things.

Thanks again...

Yes

wow, alright....... I was still worried that its gonna be complicated. I will post the results after getting it fixed up.

Cheers....

Just make sure you clean of the rim of the pan really good, clean out all of the little waste particles and seal it up properly. I used brake cleaner clean out my pan. Don't trust just picking out the pieces, you really need to clean it out well.

Will brake cleaner leave any residue?

No, it wont for this kind of job. Really need to take the baffles out to really clean it.

Man --dont worry--its an easy job. If you know how to change coils and plugs, intake etc --you can do this.
I need to clarify someSilver pointed out (aint those great pics!) the RE regular goes in the REAR of the engine--closest to the firewall/tran, and the one that needs the washers is in the FRONT of the engine (closest to the radiator).
The rear one is easy to see---its a little tight but a pull handle wrench will get it out and then the new one just screws back in.
The front one is like a big screw plug. Just unscrew it and the spring will drop right out ( the piston may not due to the oil film holding it)--so if it doesnt just put the washers on the end of the spring, reinstall it and screw the plug back in. Thats it.
Then just prepare the oil pan---clean it etc---put your silicone gasket stuff on and put it back.
DOnt tighen the oil pan bolts by very much -- only about 15 lbs of tq-- then let it dry in accordance to what type of silicone stuff you used---fill it up with oil and go driving.
One of the easiest mods I have ever done.
OD

What specific RTV did you use OD? Damn this rain.

what I use is "The Right Stuff"---think thats the name---comes in an aerosol can---its black and requires verry little drying time. Hasnt failed me yet. It cost a little more but to me the ease of use etc is worth it. I get mine at advance auto--made by permatex--i think?

What specific RTV did you use OD? Damn this rain.

just use any RTV would be fine.

there is nothing special ... you can pay an extra buck or 2 for those "high temp" ones ... works the same for me.

I have a whole tube of High Temp, red RTV. I guess that will do. Planned on knocking this out yesterday but it started raining and then I distracted getting my ass kicked by Zumnrx8 on COD, haha.

A few of our group got together yesterday for a "tuner" day. We installed 2 of the modified oil bypass kits on members cars and had some surprising findings. It was very interesting.

Ok some of the findings that we saw are:

1- Guess how much oil is left in the pan after it has been drained until it stops dripping?. The car is up level on jack stands , dealerships etc would also have it level if they change your oil.
Would you believe 1LITER of oil oil is left behind in the pan.
Thats a lot of oil! This is very true--we observed and recorded this in 2 members cars! 1 frigging liter of old oil remains in the OIL PAN and more is in the coolers and lines. Thats a lot of oil oil that doesnt get changed out
The oil remains because of the oil pan baffles present and the plug hole is a little too far up on the side.
To Paul and I this makes for a strong cause to use an evacuator when you change the oil as you should be able to get more out. Course jacking up different sides of the car should help also but thats a pida to do.
I never realized there was this much left in the pan after draining..

2- The 09 oil filter will not fit on the pre 09 IF you have a Racing Beat oil adaptor installed---this makes it too tall to clear the firewall----damn! (Addentum--seems with some slight mods the 09 will fit. More to follow)

3-- oil pressures with the bypass kit can vary from engine to engine. The start up pressures on an engine that has had an e shaft pellet modification will be higher than the engine that has the oem e pellet system in place. However after the oil warms and the pellet is closed the pressures will be very similar. The e pellet difference on start up oil pressure was interesting to see. With the cold e pellet the oil pressure was much lower--almost like stock. As soon as the oil started warming up (over 140F) you could see the oil pressure rising!
Please also remember that different viscosity and temps cause different pressure readings.

One members oil at 180F and a 10W/40 dino oil was 100psi at almost 4Krpms.
We learned some good things to know.
Pictures to follow via SilverEight (hes the Man!) and more info to come.
So far very successful!
olddragger

Re: 1 Liter oil remaining in oil pan after level drain.

1) Has the Series ll oil pan been modified to decrease retained oil when it is drained?

2) Is the Series ll oil pan a direct bolt on to the Series l engine?

PS I am aware that the Series ll oil pan has a larger capacity.

Thanks

I have installed the mazmart oil press and the result seems overwhelming.....
I have gotten about 127psi from 6000rpm onwards, which raise my concern of too high press.....

Can someone advice?? I am hitting 100psi at about 3500rpm and it just goes to 120 at 4500rpm.
I am also using very thin oil of 5w30... some advice please......

Try some heavier oil, 10w30 or higher

does reducing from 3 washer to 2 washer helps?

I have installed the mazmart oil press and the result seems overwhelming.....
I have gotten about 127psi from 6000rpm onwards, which raise my concern of too high press.....

Can someone advice?? I am hitting 100psi at about 3500rpm and it just goes to 120 at 4500rpm.
I am also using very thin oil of 5w30... some advice please......

What's the oil temperature when you are seeing these pressures?

^ For sure...pressure is very dependent on oil temperature.....The only max oil pressure measurement that is important is when the car is at operating temperature.

One of the important reasons for an oil bypass is that the cold start up pressure can be very high...

Is that pressure with a "wallmart" pressure gauge or a quality gauge,maybe try another gauge,that will gauge whether or not the first gauge is gauging correctly. :)

The oil temp is ard 70-80deg C. I am using a defi guage......

It is infact quite ok at cold start..... but once warm up, pressure shoot up very fast as rpm goes up.....

before installing the mazmart oil press bypass, I am hitting max of 88psi at ard 8000rpm. Once installed, I went for a test straight and it went up to 127psi at 6000rpm and stays there pretty constant.....

What is the negative of having such pressure?? most importantly, how may I bring it down to ard 100-110psi?

before installing the mazmart oil press bypass, I am hitting max of 88psi at ard 8000rpm. Once installed, I went for a test straight and it went up to 127psi at 6000rpm and stays there pretty constant.....

What is the negative of having such pressure?? most importantly, how may I bring it down to ard 100-110psi?

I was showing 94 lbs at 6,000 rpm at 205 F with ~40 wt oil after the mod. That last bit of temperature will make some difference, but I wonder about your gauge calibration. Are you measuring through the oil filter adapter plate? I discovered by putting air pressure directely into the first sender I had, that the calibration was way off, especially on the high pressure end of things.

I was showing 94 lbs at 6,000 rpm at 205 F with ~40 wt oil after the mod. That last bit of temperature will make some difference, but I wonder about your gauge calibration. Are you measuring through the oil filter adapter plate? I discovered by putting air pressure directely into the first sender I had, that the calibration was way off, especially on the high pressure end of things.

Yes, my oil pressure sensor is place via a adaptor at the filter there, together with Oil temp. I don't get what you mean by
"by putting air pressure directely into the first sender I had, that the calibration was way off, especially on the high pressure end of things."

Unscrew the op sender from the mounting block, then screw it into a 1/8 PT female Tee. Screw in a hose from your air compressor, and a trusted airpressure gauge into the other two ports. Turn on your ignition (but dont start the engine!). Raise the airpressure in the line in 10 psi steps. Tap the sender a bit in case the internal diaphram is sticky (the running engine would take care of this for you in normal operation). You'll have two airpressure gauges, one on the compressor outlet and one you installed in the tee. Assuming they agree, write down what the ap gauge is reading and what the op gauge is reading at the same time. My first sender agree pretty well up to about 30 psi, but by the time it was over 80 psi, the op guage was reading almost 20 lbs high. If it's in error, you can record the difference and apply it to your op readings later. I got another, supposedly identical sender, so that now the op gauge in my car reads withing +- 3 lbs or so of what the air pressure gauges are reading.

I also discovered that the gauge readings in the car were quite sensitive to how and where I grounded them. The best results were when I uses a hose clamp to clamp ~1" of bare wire to the body of the sender and ran that wire back to the ground wire of the guage itself. In other words, it worked best when it was not relying on the car body as ground.

After running sperate ground wire for the them, I also checked my temerature gauges by putting them in hot water and comparing the car reading to a good 'ol bulb thermometer. Even the fanciest new car gauges still depend on 1950's senders and I don't trust them to be accurate. There's no attempt at any sort of quality control as far as I can see; marketing is driven by how many and what color of flashing lights they can put in.

I am pretty sure it's not guage issue, but probably the regulator pressure was overly increased. I have took out 2 washer from the front relief valve, and it drops to 123psi. This make me belief the stock relief valve was already rated at 120psi. There is probably no need for any washer unless you want to get your pressure over 120psi.

As read somewhere in the thread, I am not the only whom can reach 100psi at low rpm of 4000, which I had lower of 3500. By hitting 100psi at 4rpm will means you should exceed 100psi by 6000rpm unless the relief valve is rated at 100psi which I believe it is 120psi.

I am not sure if mazmart had tested what is the peak beyong 100psi. From the pictures posted earlier, the guage seems capable of reading max of 100psi not beyong.

I thought this might be of interest to those who run the higher oil pressure:

http://www.racingbeat.com/FRmazda4.htm

OK, the link might not get you there, but Racing Beat is selling custom oil lines for the coolers - fewer connections might mean fewer leaks. Somebody would need to check if they can handle the higher pressure, but I suspect they can.

I have custom lines and cooler and my pressure increased just with that (90-93 psi max). I will have some OP numbers this weekend on the Mazmart Kit so hopefully it's not too much :)

If u are running over 90psi, i think should be good enough? raising another 7psi, aint a lot though....... and may ended over boosting your pressure.....

E washer I believe is not required at all........ mine is 07 model, don't think any diff with 04 model in OP.

I'll be switching back to stock regulator..... better be lower than to burst any connection.... which One WRX did on track...... and the one behind him, has to scrapt his ride due to it.

Although this kit is not sold with guarantees to do anything other than increase your oil pressure to 100 plus psi, the potential pressure is nothing to be alarmed about. The stock lines in healthy condtion can stand all the motor will make with this kit. Anyone installing this is doing so at their own risk but it has been well thought out and tested like everything else we sell.

By the way, we ran 150 psi on our race car last weekend.

Paul.

Yeah I have been reading up on OP on various 13B's and this should not be an issue, just hope my custom stuff holds up :)

I ran at Road Atlanta this last weekend in Time Trials. My car really ran great. Can't say wether the oil pressure was a of any benefit. I still have the RB gauge so I have no clue what the peak was on the back stretch.

I think I filled my oil level too high as it frothed one time on Saturday. I was using a small breather on the neck of my oil filler so it just blew into my engine bay. I don't attribute this to the added oil pressure but I do find it interesting that it has never happened before that I know of. I had a back-up breather so I just replaced and went on about my business. I did drop the oil level to about 1/8 below full to try to keep it from doing it again. I had no more issues and that was with running even harder than when she puked.

By they way, pardon me while I toot my horn... I took first in TTD on Saturday and Sunday! Toot-Toot!

Paul, you want me to blame it on the OP? :)

took first in TTD on Saturday and Sunday! Toot-Toot! :)

Whoot whoot!

Paul, any disadvantages of those pressures on the street?

i was there also and i did not have any blow back.
no problems.
no leaks
no worrys
I think Don was driving so dang fast he must have flipped upside down once and didnt notice:)
OD

Thanks for all the info........ I am not sure if am comfortable running 123psi because it seems like I am the only person on this boost level...... :-( whatever the case is, I felt the 3 shims are not required...... since I am running on just 1 shim now.

The front relief valve should be good enough of over 100psi....... :-)

I finally got a weather window and clear streets to take the 8 out on a 600 mile roundtrip (that I have to do way too often). I agree with OD about 'silk-a-licious'! It's hardly scientific, but the impression of absolute smoothness was strong. I was also surprised at how big a difference temperatures make. With slightly lighter than 15W-40 oil I was showing 94 psi at a water temp of 205 F taken in my garage. Moving in ~ 55F air, the water temp was 175 deg F, and op @ 6k was 110 lbs. Oil temps were running about 5 F higher than water temps. In this run, mpg's were down from 24.5 to 22.5, compared to stock. I think I'll collect data for a while with this setup, then switch back to the stock 180F thermostat and see if it makes a difference. The peak op I saw was in the neighborhood of 120 psi.

Thanks, I meant I am the only one running this OP here in my region...... It seems like your Peak OP is similar to mine but my OP peaked much earlier from 4200rpm @ 123psi. I understand that my guage is slightly more sensitive which could mean only 120psi....

Not sure if the earlier peak OP is due to 2Xoil cooler??

Thanks, I meant I am the only one running this OP here in my region...... It seems like your Peak OP is similar to mine but my OP peaked much earlier from 4200rpm @ 123psi. I understand that my guage is slightly more sensitive which could mean only 120psi....

Not sure if the earlier peak OP is due to 2Xoil cooler??

? .... I have the twin oil coolers like all the other MT cars. Certainly my op's peak earlier if the car is anything less than fully warmed up. A 3,800 rpm long cruise at 73 mph was showing ~80 psi with ~50 deg outside air temperature. Interpolating from what I've seen, going back to a stock 180 deg thermostat should drop the pressure by about 5 psi @ 6k rpm, and a 30W oil, another 5 psi. Too bad there doesn't seem to be a 190 deg thermostat around - it would make an interesting comparison to the 170 deg one. I'm suspecting at the moment that there's some negative effect on gas mileage from running the engine colder.

Done. Pics and data to follow. Right now I have to go eat ;)

looking FWD: to it.

Okay, did not get a chance to red line but this is my pressure in the 6-7,000RPM range ;)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2802/4452631871_c53eb91060_b.jpg


Oh, and you guys with the RB adapter may have to mofidy to fit the 09' filters but not us guys with the Prosport adapter :)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2787/4453405968_8aa2cd5b95_b.jpg

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4018/4453405582_98cef4fe77_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4031/4452628967_03705eea72_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4023/4452628295_317270878e_b.jpg

Did anyone else have a shit load of silicone already in the engine? I noticed when I pulled the old unit it had dabs of silicone dried to it. Maybe why I was getting high silicone in my oil analysis?

Oh, and I did a few hard pulls this morning and my max seem to be at about 140PSI.

Did anyone else have a shit load of silicone already in the engine? I noticed when I pulled the old unit it had dabs of silicone dried to it. Maybe why I was getting high silicone in my oil analysis?

Oh, and I did a few hard pulls this morning and my max seem to be at about 140PSI.


A lot of RX8s had their original oil pans replaced under warranty. Sometimes the job may have been a little sloppy. I can tell you from your VIN if that's the case with yours.

Paul.

A lot of RX8s had their original oil pans replaced under warranty. Sometimes the job may have been a little sloppy. I can tell you from your VIN if that's the case with yours.

Paul.

Well this would be my 3rd oil pan :) I guess the reman plant is getting sloppy :)

Well this would be my 3rd oil pan :) I guess the reman plant is getting sloppy :)

That's interesting. Inside of your motor shows so much silicone that I was wondering whether someone had rebuilt it (Sloppy on Mazda's part).

Paul.

Yeah when I first dropped the pan I was really set back at the amount between the housings and on the pan itself.

Okay, did not get a chance to red line but this is my pressure in the 6-7,000RPM range ;)
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2802/4452631871_c53eb91060_b.jpg



This is high...... don't think it will go any higher as the relief valve will open...... If u remove the 3 shims, it should peak at ard 118psi region.....

A couple days ago, I got caught in an hour long traffic jam on an 8-lane expressway. Last year, before the op and cooling mods, in a similar situation, the car started to overheat, run rough, and generally balk at the 5 mph average speed. This time, smooth and cool! We'll see what happens in the heat of summer later on in the year.

This is high...... don't think it will go any higher as the relief valve will open...... If u remove the 3 shims, it should peak at around 118psi region.....

It's fine. I think I am showing higher pressures due to my custom single oil cooler. I have a small leak (drip or two overnight) as of now but I think it is the omp at the SOHN. I revised my OMP setup when I did the OP kit. I am also running a OEM 09' oil filter. I will get her up on stands Saturday and figure it out.

A couple days ago, I got caught in an hour long traffic jam on an 8-lane expressway. Last year, before the op and cooling mods, in a similar situation, the car started to overheat, run rough, and generally balk at the 5 mph average speed. This time, smooth and cool! We'll see what happens in the heat of summer later on in the year.

Yes, it may be my butt dyno but she feels better throughout.

I've seen a couple comments about leaks caused by the higher pressures. Is this common or is there a specific reason why few individuals have experienced this. Trying to gather info on if I should be considering this mod (I don't do hardly any track time and I run 5w-30 redline, just switched to Amsoil in my 8)

For the record, I've had no leaks.

i dont think anyone with the oem oil cooling system has had any leaks realted to higher pressures? Non of us in ga have that I am aware off?

I thought I had a leak but it turned out I nicked my SOHN feed line, replaced it today, all is good. Car is running great max Pressure is around 135psi now. Remember, I don't have the stock oil coolers or lines.

Anyone try the Racing Beat oil pressure mod?

http://www.racingbeat.com/FRmazda4.htm

It max's out at 95 psi but only changes the rear bypass regulator.

2- The 09 oil filter will not fit on the pre 09 IF you have a Racing Beat oil adaptor installed---this makes it too tall to clear the firewall----damn! (Addentum--seems with some slight mods the 09 will fit. More to follow)


I would just like some clarity on this:
Do you have to use the Series II oil filter if you do this mod?

Will the Series I filter collapse under the increased pressure?

Anyone try the Racing Beat oil pressure mod?

http://www.racingbeat.com/FRmazda4.htm

It max's out at 95 psi but only changes the rear bypass regulator.

nope.

After the mod, you have to shim the front relieve valve, 1 should be enough.

If you are doing the Mazmart By Pass valve up grade, all they are supplying is the FD RX-7 valve.

The RX-7 uses the SAME Oil Filter as the Series 1 RX-8, so there can't be an issue with your Oil Filter going into By Pass Mode...or "Series I filter collapse under the increased pressure?"

THE issue in regards to Oil Filter is 09~ Owners/Engine using a Series 1 Oil Filter, not the other way around.

^^^ Thanks Ash8

I have an 05 RX8 so....
That's sort of what I thought but wasn't 100% sure if it was required (or strongly recommended) to use the Series II vs the Series I filter for this mod.

This makes me happy as I still have 4 new series I filters in a box. :)

I'm using Series II filters and the Mazmart op mod on my '06. With the Prosport adapter plate, it does fit if you saw off a bit of the plastic holder mounted on the firewall that it interferes with. (I posted pics of this somewhere earlier in this thread). I thought one pretty much had to use the Series II filter, because otherwise the filter bypass opens too early running the higher pressure with the Series I.

I'm using Series II filters and the Mazmart op mod on my '06. With the Prosport adapter plate, it does fit if you saw off a bit of the plastic holder mounted on the firewall that it interferes with. (I posted pics of this somewhere earlier in this thread). I thought one pretty much had to use the Series II filter, because otherwise the filter bypass opens too early running the higher pressure with the Series I.


What is weird is that I too am using the Prosport adapter plate and 09 filters and I have no clearance issues. I don't get it.

WCS and I did this mod last night... into early this morning....
First time taking the oil pan off the 8

We had a little issue I'd like to bring to the attention of others doing this mod.
Once my car was back together it had little to no oil pressure. :confused:

What we figured happened was the little cap that goes on top of the front regulator spring had stayed in place but somehow dropped into a shop towel while we were inserting the shims in the bottom bolt. We didn't notice this and, not being really familiar with this regulator, put the car back together added oil and started. Oops. :banghead:

Once we found the part in the part in the shop towel it all made sense....
But it meant doing most of the work over on my car. :( (and pulling an all-nighter)

Please, if you do this mod, check that this part is in place before you seal up the pan.

http://www.silvereightstudio.com/OMS_Tuner_Session/install/DSC_0540.jpg

Edit: Some other stuff I just thought of.
The ideal tool for removing the oil pressure regulator is a 26mm (I think; double check with the new part) deep 6 point socket. We didn't have one and it made life tougher.
The front regulator bolt is 23mm

Oooh! If you take the shims inside this little "piston", it couldn't happen.

Anyone try the Racing Beat oil pressure mod?

http://www.racingbeat.com/FRmazda4.htm

It max's out at 95 psi but only changes the rear bypass regulator.


I will be installing the RB mod instead of the Remedy.

I will be installing the RB mod instead of the Remedy.

Make sure to shim the front then. It's very important

Make sure to shim the front then. It's very important
Why do you say that?

Cause if you don't it will open instead of the new rear..and limit your oil pressure increase to it's cracking pressure

Why do you say that?

if u don't shim the front it will be the weak link in the oil system ---- meaning it will still vent at the stock oil pressure

K
We under shimmed the front regulator when we did the MM mod
this was intentional to keep pressure down a bit lower than what we were seeing in this thread...
I can always rip off the pan again ... :(

AAHHH At last I see. "The Truth Will Out"

I'll post up when I get the RB mod and see what is entailed.

THX for the insight.

Well, please take a min in order to understand what Dr Hass is telling us about pressure and lubrication !

Most believe that pressure = lubrication. This is false. Flow = lubrication. If pressure was the thing that somehow lubricated your engine then we would all be using 90 grade oil.




Lets Talk Motor Oil – It is So Very Misunderstood

Chapter One - Motor Oil 101

....................
..........................

It is time to introduce the concept of lubrication. Most believe that pressure = lubrication. This is false. Flow = lubrication. If pressure was the thing that somehow lubricated your engine then we would all be using 90 grade oil. Lubrication is used to separate moving parts, to keep them from touching. There is a one to one relationship between flow and separation. If you double the flow you will double the separation pressure in a bearing. The pressure at the bearing entrance is irrelevant.

In fact the relationship between pressure and flow is in opposition. If you change your oil to a thicker formula the pressure will go up. It goes up because the resistance to flow is greater and in fact the flow must go down in order for the pressure to go up. They are inversely related. Conversely if you choose a thinner oil then the pressure will go down. This can only occur if the flow has increased.

It seems then that we should all be using the thinnest oil money can buy. This is partly true. Let me use my old 575 Ferrari Maranello as an example. I drove this car around town. The manual of this car states the target pressure is 75 PSI at 6,000 RPM. The gold standard is that all engines should have a pressure of 10 PSI for every 1,000 RPM of operation, not more, not less. After all, you do need some pressure to move that oil along, but only enough pressure, not more. More pressure is not better, it can only result from the impedance of oil flow. Remember that oil flow is the only thing that does the lubricating.

Note that Ferrari is not saying what thickness of oil to use. That can only be determined by experimentation. My engine oil temperature was running around 185 F as I drove around town on a hot Florida summer day. I have found that the thinnest oil I can buy that is API / SAE certified is Mobil 1’s thinnest oil. Even with this oil I get 80 PSI at 2,000 RPM. It is too thick for my application yet it is the thinnest oil money can buy. If I was on a hot Florida track in mid-summer the oil temperature would probably get up to 302 F. I will guess that the pressure would only be 40 PSI at 6,000 RPM. The oil I am using would not meet the requirement of 75 PSI at 6,000 RPM from Ferrari. I would have to choose a thicker oil for this racing situation. The oil I use now would be too thin at that very high temperature. (This is only partly true. Higher RPM running engines use thinner and thinner oils to get more and more flow. I will discuss this later).

High flow does more than lubricate. It is one of the things used to cool the hottest parts of your engine, the pistons, valve areas and bearings. This cooling effect is as important as lubrication in your engine. If your engine is running hot you may need to use a thinner oil. The flow will increase and so will the cooling. This is even more important in the racing condition.

................

................
.................
I repeat: More confusion occurs because people think in terms of the oil thinning when it gets hot. They think this thinning with heat is the problem with motor oil. It would be more correct to think that oil thickens when it cools to room temperature and THIS is the problem. In fact this is the problem. This is why multi-viscosity oils were developed.

Source: Motor Oil Articles by Dr. Ali E. Haas


This is the end of lesson number one.




As a result, should we try increase the pressure that will decrease the flow and the lubrication ? I think not.

I guess Mazda got it wrong when they increased Oil Pressure in the RENESIS II engine.??;)

BTW: Both S1 and S2 Oil Pressure 'numbers' released by Mazda Officially for US markets used 5W20 oil.

But yes, I agree, a higher viscosity Oil will show/give a slightly higher OP, just look at Europe markets where 5W30 is used or recommended by factory.

Mazda already done a lot of mistakes, why not making another one? Remember Renesis I OMP and compare it to Renesis II OMP. Renesis II OMP is improved over Renesis I according to Mazda but we just wait to see the results.

Renesis II OMP has 3 oil injectors per rotor vs 2 oil injectors in Renesis I. As a result, an increase in oil pressure may be required otherwise flow is affected throw the oil system. But here we have a different OMP.

Having Renesis I or Renesis II (and not comparing those two) by increasing the pressure you decrease the flow according to Dr Hass.

I do not see any benefit of increasing the oil pressure. Have you find any one? If yes which is it and how can we measure its effectiveness ?

And how you increase oil pressure? Either you use a thicker oil which provides an increase in pressure and resistance that translates in a decrease in flow hence lubrication is inversely affected or you use Mazmart oil pressure bypass install.

So how is Mazmart oil pressure bypass install working ? Is it working by increasing the resistance (going from large to smaller diameter )? If this is the case it is similar with thicker oil viscosity.

First off, the oil pressure present within the motor has nothing at all to do with the OMP system. OMP operates on fixed volume injection amounts which are handled by the PCM.

It's true that increasing the pressure of the oil system will do nothing for flow assuming everything is equal. The oil pump is a fixed displacement pump which pumps a specific volume of oil for a given RPM. Since pressure is resistance to flow we can easily say that any major increases in pressure will probably hinder flow in some way.

However, that being said we are not operating with an engine where all conditions are equal. The aspect that interests me the most is the pressure differential as oil moves through the motor. Pressure is necessary to move the oil as well as get it into the bearings. Any pressure beyond what is required to get oil into the bearings is wasted energy so there is certainly a point where excess pressure isn't doing anything for you.

Now, if conditions existed where oil pressure at the farthest areas of the motor from the pump was significantly lower than what would be required to provide maximum lubrication then increasing the pressure to compensate would obviously help. THAT is the aspect that most interests me.

And how you increase oil pressure? Either you use a thicker oil which provides an increase in pressure and resistance that translates in a decrease in flow hence lubrication is inversely affected or you use Mazmart oil pressure bypass install.

So how is Mazmart oil pressure bypass install working ? Is it working by increasing the resistance (going from large to smaller diameter )? If this is the case it is similar with thicker oil viscosity.

It changes the bypass opening pressureS.
Higher pressure also means that you need a stronger force applied to overcome the oil film that prevents the part from rubbing one against the other. At high rpms this translate to better bearing protection.
Increasing the pressure doesn't mean reducing the flow in this case, we have a fixed displacement chain drivine pump. Think of the oil system as a pressurized system (i know it isn't, the pressure fluctuates), you just change the peak pressure and the overall working pressures. The increased pressure doesn't translate to decreased flow in this case.
If your theory was correct, which isn't the case, an engine wouldn't last much with this kind of oil pressure mod since you practically DOUBLE the system's pressure.

(Damn Todd, you beat me to it!)

And how you increase oil pressure? Either you use a thicker oil which provides an increase in pressure and resistance that translates in a decrease in flow hence lubrication is inversely affected or you use Mazmart oil pressure bypass install.

So how is Mazmart oil pressure bypass install working ? Is it working by increasing the resistance (going from large to smaller diameter )? If this is the case it is similar with thicker oil viscosity.
This mod is just a pressure relief valve
No mod is made to the restriction of the system
Therefore all it does is limit the max pressure at a higher level than the stock unit
Please re-read http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=3406361&postcount=92
it's a great explanation of the benefits.

First off, the oil pressure present within the motor has nothing at all to do with the OMP system. OMP operates on fixed volume injection amounts which are handled by the PCM.

It's true that increasing the pressure of the oil system will do nothing for flow assuming everything is equal. The oil pump is a fixed displacement pump which pumps a specific volume of oil for a given RPM. Since pressure is resistance to flow we can easily say that any major increases in pressure will probably hinder flow in some way.



Yes you are right about the OMP. However, I am not sure about your statement that increasing the pressure will do nothing for flow assuming everything is equal. There is a relationship between flow and pressure. This relationship says that increase the pressure will decrease the flow. Flow is required for lubrication and not pressure.

@ bse50

I understand what you are saying but the theory that I support it is not mine. It is the theory of Dr Hass. How can you increase pressure without increasing the resistance hence decreasing the flow? Think that in order to increase pressure you are using a thicker oil for building resistance or you are can narrow the oil circuit pipes.

RP, I think you're taking a single statement and trying to apply it to all instances. Clearly pressure is necessary in order for the oil to flow in the first place.

There's something to take notice of that previous generations of the rotary had higher pressure and the fact that the S2 operates with higher pressure is something to note. However the reasons why can only be speculated.

I'm not totally convinced that seriously high pressures (say north of 110 psi) are really necessary. I think a small bump could help ensure that oil is being delivered in all areas but 40 or 50 psi above stock does seem rather excessive to me.

I can say that after BHR broke down my motor with 109k miles on it that various parts including the main bearings are in great shape considering the mileage and abuse the motor took. I don't think there is any harm in leaving your pressure at the stock level but I can't see a bump of 20 psi or so as a negative effect.

I'd say I also debunked the notion that 20w-50 is the only solution to long engine life but as Ray says, that's a whole other radio show.

As you can see the example below the pressure is increasing at 3000rpm ! It is almost the same as using a thicker oil .

Before Install:
750 RPM =25 lbs (Idle)
3000 RPM = 50 lbs
4000 RPM = ?
5000 RPM = 74 lbs with 75 being max.

After Install:
750 RPM = 25 lbs (Idle)
3000 RPM = 78 lbs
4000 RPM =100
5000 RPM = 110 lbs +/- ? (pegged the gauge)

Anyway how can someone prove the benefits of increased oil pressure using the Mazmart mod? I know that it is difficult to prove such a task but you need to compare a stock pressure engine with Mazmart mod engine in the long run in order to see how this increase helps your engine.

I am not saying that Mazmart research is not good or the Mazmart mod is not working. I am trying to understand if this mod will be good or not for my engine. How can I measure this? How can I be sure that this mod may be proved a bad choice lubrication ?

Anyway how can someone prove the benefits of increased oil pressure using the Mazmart mod? I know that it is difficult to prove such a task but you need to compare a stock pressure engine with Mazmart mod engine in the long run in order to see how this increase helps your engine.

I am not saying that Mazmart research is not good or the Mazmart mod is not working. I am trying to understand if this mod will be good or not for my engine. How can I measure this? How can I be sure that this mod may be proved a bad choice lubrication ?

This mod will surely help in the long run. To what extent? we don't know yet :)
I have it and like it, everythng runs "smoother" at higher rpms but since that's just a feeling there's no need to discuss it any further.

As for all your previous posts: Pressure is resistance to flow, ok.
What happens when you have a pump that is designed to flow a certain amount of oil in a certain amount of time\rpms? The pump will still flow about the same or break :D:
Another thing to consider is the way how a bypass works in reducing the pressure imho, we're not talking about restrictions here but about some kind of "relief" valves.

Since all it does is raise the limit for oil pressure and is independent of your oil viscosity choice I can't see any down side. (I'm running 5w30)
The oil flow at any given oil viscosity will be identical up to the point where the stock valve will bleed pressure. Above that point the MM mod will flow more oil with higher pressure.
My only worry was leakage due to higher pressure but so far so good.

Anyway how can someone prove the benefits of increased oil pressure using the Mazmart mod? I know that it is difficult to prove such a task but you need to compare a stock pressure engine with Mazmart mod engine in the long run in order to see how this increase helps your engine.

I am not saying that Mazmart research is not good or the Mazmart mod is not working. I am trying to understand if this mod will be good or not for my engine. How can I measure this? How can I be sure that this mod may be proved a bad choice lubrication ?

Good question. So far the only explanation that has been given (that I can recall) is that experienced engine builders have suggested that it is a good idea as well as this feature being present in race engines. I've never really been a fan of the "cause so-and-so said so" nor are 90% of the RX8's out there race cars in any scope. Much of the opinions about engine oil here and elsewhere are based in "feeling" without any real data to back up claims.

Does it work? Hard to say in my opinion. Damage from improper lubrication (with exceptions) takes quite a long time to manifest itself. The issue of crankcase lubrication has never really been an issue and I've not heard of any sizable amount of engines failing because of seized or failed bearings. All the engine deaths in mass have been from lack of OMP volume causing excessive seal wear. That is a whole different animal.

thanks guys for all your answers

"Dont outsmart your common sense."

One of my favorite lines in a song I heard recently.

Oil lubrication systems in engines are basically open systems--not closed. There are restrictions in the systems to maintain a certain pressure so that the pressure will never get too low.
Dr Hass--being a medical man is highly educated in closed system flow--thats what our bobies use. But in open system these "facts" are not true.
If you think we dont have an open system, then explain how the oil gets into the rotors? Or do people believe the rotors stay full of oil all the time?
In an open system-- BASICALLY SPEAKIN - the more pressure, the greater the flow.
Our engine's lubrication system is more complicated than this, but basically you can believe that there are 2 ways to increase flow, no matter what the viscosity of the oil is.
1- enlarge the oil passages, increase clearances and install a larger volume pump (if needed)
2- increase the pressure (this is true up to a certain limit) as long as you dont cause pump cavitation etc. There is no pump cavitation at the pressures this mod gives and our oem pump

yall are aware that the s2 IDLE oil pressure is in the 40-50's with 5/20? same oil pump we have.

Another point:
Viscosity in itself can be thought of as "more". Which has the largest amount of oil?
5 cc's of 20 wgt oil--or
5 cc's of 40 wgt oil?
Yes there is more mass in the 40 wgt oil-----very, very, very small amount, but non the less --more. So technically speaking increasing the viscosity can increase the amount of oil that is being pumped by a fixed volume pump.
Head hurt yet?
Now you know why I like that statement in that song.
OD

The fact that Mazda increased the OP in the S2 was enough evidence for me.

*sigh*

oil pressure modification(increasing that is) is nothing new for Rotary engines.

Its just that most people in the 8 community are "first time" Rotary owners (myself included) so this mod "seems" to be something new and revolutionary for them.

Ever since I got my FC last June, I did numerous research on the whole Rotary Engine history and oil mod is pretty common in all Rotary engines. Especially the FC family.


funny thing is that it took Mazda 20-30 f-ing years to "finally" increase the oil pressure to something more reasonable like what they're doing in the S2 of the RX-8. I mean I like the idea of if it ain't broke don't fix it, but Rotary engine has a long ass history of "not enough oil pressure" and everybody in the older RX world knows it. im just shock that it still took so many damn years b4 Mazda finally "oh, shit we screwed up" and do something about it, sheesh.

If oil pressure is the key for lubrication or is the desired attribute why not using a 90 degree oil to increase the pressure?

Yeah I would love to hear an explanation from a rotary engineer about the changes made to the series II Renesis.


If oil pressure is the key for lubrication or is the desired attribute why not using a 90 degree oil to increase the pressure?

What do you mean 90 degree oil?

Yeah I would love to hear an explanation from a rotary engineer about the changes made to the series II Renesis.

KEEP WAITING ! :yelrotflm

you gotta do this :bowdown: to them and they might tell you.

my opinion is that S2 is just a test bed for their next design. they can't just release a design and expect no issues ever. and its better to release new design piece by piece to check and see if there are any longevity issues with it. they know even with the Facelift/redesign RX-8 will not sell like hot cakes, but couple hundred/thousand more "in field" tester should be able to generate enough data/feedback for their new system.


but meh, what do I know :)

Well Dr Hass explains very good the concept of pressure and flow. I guess I should have read the rest of his chapters in order to understand pressure, flow and lubrication !!!!

The guy is unbelievable. his chapters are for seminars




a knowledgeable automotive enthusiast said the following
“Pressure and flow are tied together with viscosity, but none have anything to do with lubrication. Lubrication is a property of the fluid, not the force. The oil pump would pump water just as well, but it would offer no real lubrication. If we double the pressure, we double the flow. If you decrease the viscosity to a lighter oil, you increase flow at a loss of pressure. High flow helps to carry away more heat. High pressure helps to keep metal parts like the bearings out of contact with each other (scuffing).”


I give you the following example to help visualize what is happening with motor oil. This assumes the oil has no internal resistance. In actuality doubling the pressure will not double the flow but will be slightly less. And thicker oils have more resistance than thinner oils for all situations. But simplified we get the following:

For a 30 grade oil at operating temperature:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......20 PSI....1
2,000......40 PSI....2
4,000......80 PSI....4
8,000... 160 PSI....8 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 5

For a 30 grade oil at operating temperature
and a higher output oil pump:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......30 PSI....1.5
2,000......60 PSI....3
4,000....120 PSI....6 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 5
8,000... 240 PSI....12

If we stick with the same grade oil and increase the oil pump output we will increase the pressure and the oil flow too. If we double the oil pump output we will double the pressure and we will double the oil flow (in an ideal system). But we are always limited by the oil relief valve:

RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......40 PSI....2
2,000......80 PSI....4
4,000....160 PSI....8 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 5
8,000... 320 PSI....16


Let us compare a 40 grade oil at operating temperature:
The oil is thicker, has more internal resistance and therefore requires more pressure to get the same flow (baseline engine).
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......30 PSI....1
2,000......60 PSI....2
4,000....120 PSI....4 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 3
8,000....240 PSI....8

For a 40 grade oil at operating temperature
and a higher output oil pump:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......45 PSI....1.5
2,000......90 PSI....3 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 3
4,000....180 PSI....6
8,000... 360 PSI....12

For a 40 grade oil at operating temperature
with the original pressures:
RPM....Pressure..Flow
1,000......20 PSI....0.5
2,000......40 PSI....1
4,000......80 PSI....2
8,000... 160 PSI....4 The maximum flow because of the oil pop off valve at 90 PSI will be 3

Increasing the pressure while using the same oil will increase the oil flow but increasing the pressure by increasing the oil thickness will result in less flow. It takes more pressure to move a thicker oil. When you go to a thicker oil the pressure goes up because of the increased resistance, and therefore reduction of flow. Because the pressure is higher sooner, the relief valve cuts in sooner. Flow will actually be less when the RPM is up and the flow is needed the most.

There is more to these graphs but I will continue with the next chapter.

Furthermore, in review, pressure does not equal lubrication. Let us look again at a single closed “lifetime lubricated” bearing. We could hook up a system to pressurize the bearing. This can actually be done. We could have the oil at ambient pressure. We could then double, triple, quadruple the pressure of the oil. The oil is non-compressible. Regardless of the pressure we would have the exact same lubrication, that of the ambient pressure lubrication.

The physics of lubrication as I said earlier show a 1:1 relationship of flow to separation pressure. Lubrication itself is pressure independent. I will not go into the mathematical equations for this.

Even water can be used as a lubricant. This is partly because of its high surface tension. It is used in many medical devices and other systems that are under or exposed to water. It is just that water rusts metal parts making this unsuitable for automotive engines. It actually has a higher specific heat than oil. It can therefore carry away more heat than oil from bearing surfaces. In this respect water is a better lubricant than oil.

Increasing the pressure while using the same oil will increase the oil flow

I guess this statement is crystal clear.

Well Dr Hass explains very good the concept of pressure and flow. I guess I should have read the rest of his chapters in order to understand pressure, flow and lubrication !!!!

The guy is unbelievable. his chapters are for seminars

*shurgs* this AGAIN ?

*sigh*

search is ur friend this time :)

Yeah I would love to hear an explanation from a rotary engineer about the changes made to the series II Renesis.




What do you mean 90 degree oil?

sorry I meant 90 grade oil

rotaryPilot it looks to me like you are trying to boil this down to a 2 variable system, pressure and flow. There are a lot more variables involved. Lets complicate the model by adding force (i.e. that provided by the oil pump). If you increase pressure you can keep the same flow if the force is increased as well. A fixed displacement oil pump like we have will do this as long as the force required remains within the pump's operating spec. Now if you think about using a super heavy oil like a 90 weight, it would not be possible, because the pump would not be able to provide the force to generate the required flow.