So, I was looking around and couldn't find it but it's probably somewhere around here and I can't find it.

Alright so from some 8 Owners they said an upgrade to the BHR Ignition Coils are wayyyy better than OEM's.

Now, they say that they will last longer and will work without a doubt other than the OEM where you have like a 50/50 chance of them being good. But what's so special about BHR? I mean I hear that they are good but why? I want to know why they are a better product.

Any info that isn't already mentioned at their site would be great.

why don't you shoot charles a PM and he'll explain it to you

Maybe the flip side of this is: why are the stock coils so bad?

Maybe the flip side of this is: why are the stock coils so bad?

what's good about them? at best, they are barely adequate off the factory floor. and with a history of being shot after such short periods...

So, I was looking around and couldn't find it but it's probably somewhere around here and I can't find it.

Alright so from some 8 Owners they said an upgrade to the BHR Ignition Coils are wayyyy better than OEM's.

Now, they say that they will last longer and will work without a doubt other than the OEM where you have like a 50/50 chance of them being good. But what's so special about BHR? I mean I hear that they are good but why? I want to know why they are a better product.

Any info that isn't already mentioned at their site would be great.

Well, if you want to hear electrical characteristics then Ray, and perhaps others at BHR, can talk to you till you're lost about it. But in general terms, those coils provide more than enough spark energy for stock applications as well as much higher power applications(350whp+) [the more air/fuel you force into the combustion chamber to make power, the denser that mix becomes. denser means more difficult for spark to jump the gap on the plug, meaning you need more energy(more or less roughly accurate)]. Those coils also have a history behind them prior to their adaptation to the RX-8, and that history gives them a substantially better track record for life expectancy than the OEM coils have.

The BHR upgrade kit's coils are GMC Yukon and therefore as you would expect have a far stronger output then our OEM coils. They also enjoy greater reliability and longevity. Coupled with the uprated MSD cables it's an excellent product.

Mazda did a very good job in many areas of the RX-8 design but most agree fell short in the ignition department.

and yet someone goes out and makes 333whp on the stock coils ... :dunno:

and yet someone goes out and makes 333whp on the stock coils ... :dunno:

How much power do ya think was "left on the table" by those OEM coils, Brett?

My feeling is not much , if ignition was an issue I would not have made what I did in the first place .
But I have no idea really .

They are an upgrade over stock in many situations.
As stated, they last longer. They also ignite fuel better, thus increasing power in some tuned applications (like high power turbo set-ups, highly modded na cars etc).
I found that they keep the stock plugs from wearing out too quickly as well. First i changed my plugs after every couple of track days, now i do it every year or so.
If you want to tune your car they also add some tuning latitude, especially if you set the dwell time in the right way.

what's good about them? at best, they are barely adequate off the factory floor. and with a history of being shot after such short periods...


I think, may haps, you misunderstood me. I don't have stock coils in my car either. I don't consider the LS2 coils truly superior coils in the world of all coils. They are just coils that were actually designed and are capable of delivering solid performance in higher hp applications. The mazda coils should have been pretty beefy considering the rate of fire they would be expected to sustain. However, they aren't up to the task.

Brettus - As for making big power on stock coils - others have made north of 320 whp on stock coils. If they hold, they hold. It's not like you had some magic genius touch that made the coils better.

We have recently changed coils on two separate 2007 GT's, both with under 30,000 miles. On both cars there were huge white spots on some of the coils. Both guys cars were brought back to life. It's like slowly overtime you don't notice the slight loss of power and then it gets worse and worse.

I don't consider the LS2 coils truly superior coils in the world of all coils.

Neither do I. That is why I specified the "Yukon" coil for our kit. In racing circles the Yukon coil is a surprise performer that rivals "racing" or "performance" coils in terms of current and voltage output. Hell, Accel takes the Yukon coil, adds yellow paint, and call it their "LS-2 Upgrade".

Brettus - As for making big power on stock coils - others have made north of 320 whp on stock coils. If they hold, they hold. It's not like you had some magic genius touch that made the coils better.

you have not seen my magic wand then ? :bootyshak

On both cars there were huge white spots on some of the coils.

I don't think THAT particular concern/issue has been settled, as in whether or not those white spots are an actual indication of anything.

you have not seen my magic wand then ? :bootyshak

I don't want to!
Anyway, Charles asked if you thought you could make more power with non-stock coils... i add: do you think that your coils will last a long time in that power range while driving the car hard?
I ask because my car is still NA (all motor\drivetrain, stripped whatsoever but still na) and during summer track use BHR coils really made a night\day difference. It was not clear from the beginning of the day but they kept to the same lap times during the whole day, something that didn't happen with the stock coils that started to suffer after a while.

I don't think THAT particular concern/issue has been settled, as in whether or not those white spots are an actual indication of anything.

Really? When mine stock ones were toast the first time (car would stutter upon acceleration) all of them had huge white spots and then when I put new stock ones back in it was fixed immediately. I wonder what the white spots are then.

do you think that your coils will last a long time in that power range while driving the car hard?
.

Probably not . I have yet to test my setup at the track and do have reservations about how the coils would handle that .
However , it's been 20000 kms now which has included numerous bouts of hard acceleration at over 300whp and the stockers are holding up fine .
I should add that I have upgraded leads which i'm sure do help , and at 320whp I had to adjust the dwell to get rid of a slight misfire that developed on old worn out plugs ....

Ok, so at least we can say that probably, even if the stock coils hold up just fine to good power levels, they won't last as much as the upgraded ones, right?
I know that my coils started to misfire during hot summer track days at the end of the day, and that i had to change plugs more often the car had 22000kms at the time.
This never happened with the yukon ones so that's why i was asking!

Really? When mine stock ones were toast the first time (car would stutter upon acceleration) all of them had huge white spots and then when I put new stock ones back in it was fixed immediately. I wonder what the white spots are then.

The problem is that there are also many people running around with those same spots and no coil issues. I think the OEM coils are weaker than they should be, even when brand-new, but that is a different argument altogether. I am just saying that I am not so sure that there is a definitive answer about the white spots.

Ok, so at least we can say that probably, even if the stock coils hold up just fine to good power levels, they won't last as much as the upgraded ones, right?
!

probably , yes .

My stock coils were and are fine. And they will continue to be fine sitting in the trunk of my car or perhaps, someday, my closet. Post turbo, my car had ignition issues above 6k. You could hear it on the dyno and you could see it in the torque curve. Change the coils and, while I haven't done a good dyno since (I did a quick run on KDR with toasted spark plugs and Dave told me as much) but I must say the car has that zing once again. I'll probably stick to aftermarket coils of one variant or another for the duration of my ownership. I don't trust the stock coils.

I'll probably stick to aftermarket coils of one variant or another for the duration of my ownership. I don't trust the stock coils.
which aftermarket coils are you considering using and why?
(out of curiosity)

I wish I could upgrade to the yukons--but i have no easy way to increase the dwell setting that would be needed for the upgrade --I am FI for those of you that dont know. NA guys dont need that.
The oems are working ok for me but i have lowered my redline and have increased the quality of the coils grounds. Xfingers.
I am actually thinking of going with the LS 1 because of their compatable dwells--so that means I have a set of yukons and ls2's that i am not using. Crap.
White spots are a mystery.
FOr na guys the bhr has never been marketed as increased performance over oem--just longetivity.
OD

I wish I could upgrade to the yukons--but i have no easy way to increase the dwell setting that would be needed for the upgrade --
OD

AP or protuner in your xmas stocking ?

OD: you still using the Pettit Reflash?
time for a reflasher of some sort. We all know you've been naughty this year but LIE to Santa and tell him you were nice. :D:

FOr na guys the bhr has never been marketed as increased performance over oem--just longetivity.
OD

Not exactly, Denny, but close. The BHR Ignition System is marketed as a benefit along several different concerns (driveability, improved throttle response, smoother engine above 7,000 RPMs, coil durability, etc.) but we have flat-out refused to cite any specific h.p. gains because each RX-8 is in a different state of tune, mileage, care, etc., (not to mention the power variances off the showroom floor) so we have no way of knowing EXACTLY how much h.p. should be expected. We have seen a bit of increase in power with a simple swap and another slight bump when we have the opportunity to set the dwell to 4.8mS or so. However, that is proprietary info as discussing it would do nothing but start arguments around here. As such, we prefer to ask people to get the kit and if they are disappointed in any way we will buy the kit back, 100% with no bullshit "restocking charge", no questions asked.

Matter of fact, I have sternly requested buy-backs from a few people and those customers flat-out refused to get a refund and, instead, kept their kits.

Buy back??? You can have my BHR Ignition System when you pry it from my cold, dead, hands. ;)

which aftermarket coils are you considering using and why?
(out of curiosity)

I have had Masport coils in my car for about a year and 10k-12k miles.

/\ how ironic - those are the coils i have sitting in MY garage (and they will stay there) LOL

Indeed. I guess that exemplifies "ymmv." BHR wasn't done with their coils yet and I really wanted to be able to run my car to redline before the driving season ended.

Also, I think BHR is or was going to run red plug wires which was a no-no.

Also, I think BHR is or was going to run red plug wires which was a no-no.

Maxx, all ya hadda do was ask........ we have a local AZ guy who, somehow, ended up with a set of blue wires and MSD makes the same exact wire we use in black instead of red. I have been known to take care of my peeps, ya know. ;)

I am just messing around with you. :)

Indeed. I guess that exemplifies "ymmv." BHR wasn't done with their coils yet and I really wanted to be able to run my car to redline before the driving season ended.

Also, I think BHR is or was going to run red plug wires which was a no-no.

out of curiosity what boost do you run and have you alteresd dwell or done any mods to improve the Mazsport system ?

Charles - I happen to have a PM from 7-29-09 where I did ask about my requirement for blue wires and the initial feedback was that there was too much to be done to accommodate special requests. You left the door open, but, really, I but I understand the hassle it would have been as well the schedule I was trying to keep. Of course, there are no hard feelings as I then went and ordered my brakes from you anyway. Then you went and shut down powerslot and personally delayed my rotors for months!!! Haha, j/k. Seriously, though, I have every pm to and from you from the last 2 years for evidence in court! I may need to request a larger in box!

Brettus - I'm running peak 12.8 psi, and look to hold about 12 psi to redline. I can't really mash the throttle this week as I'm due for some new plugs and it'll break up at the torque peak. I'm probably overdue for another spin on the dyno to check out how it's running. I don't truly have a good dyno to indicate what power level I'm at when my plugs are new/working. I'm running 3.5 dwell. Originally had an HKS ignition amplifier but that's a no-no with the igniter box.

interesting - do you run the Mazsport turbo as well ?

You should dyno over 360whp at that boost ....

I'm running a Type 3 Mazsport. I did 320/wheels pre-ignition but that shop, while good at tuning, seemed really interested in giving people good numbers rather than true numbers. They run a dynapack and a correction factor to get "dynojet numbers." So I'd take that with a grain of salt. At KDR I pulled something like 284 whp at 6200 RPMS with torched spark plugs, didn't run the car past 6200. Then I replaced the plugs and I got face cramps from the giddy smiles. Now I need to replace them again. KDR is 150 miles away though so I'll just have to live with being subjectively happy for now.

Dyno that bitch ! we need some interest in the highest whp FI thread ...

Oh yea...this thread reminded me I still havent set my dwell settings properly. I just quickly raised the table 50% when I threw them on....need to go back and set it properly. :D:

Charles - I happen to have a PM from 7-29-09 where I did ask about my requirement for blue wires and the initial feedback was that there was too much to be done to accommodate special requests. You left the door open, but, really, I but I understand the hassle it would have been as well the schedule I was trying to keep. Of course, there are no hard feelings as I then went and ordered my brakes from you anyway. Then you went and shut down powerslot and personally delayed my rotors for months!!! Haha, j/k. Seriously, though, I have every pm to and from you from the last 2 years for evidence in court! I may need to request a larger in box!

Dammit! As soon as I posted that I recalled you having asked for blue wires. The problem, back then, was that we were ramping up the kit build process. Nowadays I can probably accomodate such requests for a slight upcharge. Right now I buy the plug wire in 300' (yes, FEET) rolls at a time and our kits are committed to red wires. I do prefer to use the MSD wire but, electrical-performance-wise, the MSD and Moroso wires are quite similar.

The PowerSlot thing, IIRC, was when PowerSlot was bought by Centric and they had transition issues or something. Sorry about that.

No hard feelings? Then why have you been holding the "evidence" for so long? :lol2:

I still havent set my dwell settings properly. I just quickly raised the table 50% when I threw them on...

Which coils ya using?

I'm an engineer. If it were up to me, I'd have everything forever. I have every email I have gotten or sent at work since I was hired in 2005. The PM box is harsh though. I've been hovering over 90% forever selectively deleting as I approach the cap. You would be surprised the bits of information you find out in the course of discussing things that can later be referenced. McMaster car part numbers, who is using what spark plug, what hours X shop keeps on Saturday even though it's technically closed. Information is clutch.

Then there are bullshit PMs - buying things you've since gotten, PMs about stuff you decided you didn't want, invites to meets/shows - those are the things I generally delete.

As for the rotor delays, I truly could not be more apathetic on the subject. I ordered the parts because you were having a sale. They are currently sitting in my room waiting for me to stretch the last inch out of my current brakes. Getting them here in April would have just taken up space in my apt sooner. As a customer, the only thing that really ever pisses me off is unresponsiveness which I doubt anyone has ever accused you of. Delays are part of the business.

I'm an engineer. If it were up to me, I'd have everything forever. I have every email I have gotten or sent at work since I was hired in 2005. The PM box is harsh though. I've been hovering over 90% forever selectively deleting as I approach the cap. You would be surprised the bits of information you find out in the course of discussing things that can later be referenced. McMaster car part numbers, who is using what spark plug, what hours X shop keeps on Saturday even though it's technically closed. Information is clutch.

Then there are bullshit PMs - buying things you've since gotten, PMs about stuff you decided you didn't want, invites to meets/shows - those are the things I generally delete.

As for the rotor delays, I truly could not be more apathetic on the subject. I ordered the parts because you were having a sale. They are currently sitting in my room waiting for me to stretch the last inch out of my current brakes. Getting them here in April would have just taken up space in my apt sooner. As a customer, the only thing that really ever pisses me off is unresponsiveness which I doubt anyone has ever accused you of. Delays are part of the business.

You and MM are quite similar in the e-mail regard. I am a little more free-wheeling about that stuff. As long as I can visualize the page (photographic memory) I can remember where the pertinent info is. I have notes, scraps of paper, stack of shit "to do", etc. My whole life is trying to get rid of the stacks, erase the project board, etc. You guys place orders, I write them on the board, and my whole life is henceforth dedicated to clearing the orders. That way, I get 1-2 days a month for myself. :) All other days are for BHR-biz.

^^ maxxx: you can export your PM's to word docs then delete them here so you can have more room.

Stupid question:

If this winter I wanted to stock up on some maintenance parts and get new coils, spark plugs, and wires, would the BHR Ignition Harness (with Yukon coils and MSD wires) be exactly the same, just minus the extra spark plugs?

i.e. the equivalent of OEM coils, Racing Beat wires, and NGK sparks = BHR ignition harness with Yukon coils and MSD wires, and NGK sparks ? Thus I don't have to buy anything extra?

Thanks

Munchy: correct, the BHR kit = coils, harness, and wires.
Then you'll need to get some new spark plugs and you'll be all set.

funny you should mention OEM coils + RB wires because that's what I took off and replaced it with the BHR. :D:

This is getting a little off track, but I have very little short term memory. Either that, or I have exceptional focus. I have to write down or save everything or it's gone forever the first time I start actually thinking about something. Also, as a customer, I strongly prefer never to call. As I am on the phone, I am already forgetting the beginning of the conversation. An email though can be reread, saved.

I have family out in Arizona. I should take a vacation at some point and drink beer while you guys build me an engine! Knock on wood, that might not be for a while.

Jedi - but what if I wanted to access said documentation elsewhere. I'd need to host it. Really, I think I'll just keep the PM pile rolling until I actually need to archive - which will be never. Nothing in there is actually critical.

Which coils ya using?

They are the Yukons with BHR harness that another forum member built. Sent you a PM. :)

Munchy: correct, the BHR kit = coils, harness, and wires.
Then you'll need to get some new spark plugs and you'll be all set.

funny you should mention OEM coils + RB wires because that's what I took off and replaced it with the BHR. :D:

Thanks for the info, probably what I'll order during winter to install in spring

BUT

what's the difference between the ignition harness and the ignition upgrade for $485?

why wouldn't everyone go the BHR route if it's been a proven reliability mod... OEM coils + wires alone will run $200ish whereas the upgraded harness system is $215.

They are the Yukons with BHR harness that another forum member built. Sent you a PM. :)

You really wanna add about 40-45% dwell time across the board as the Yukons only need a max of 4.8 mS or so for optimal output. The LS-2 coils are a bit less than that.

Munchy: correct, the BHR kit = coils, harness, and wires.
Then you'll need to get some new spark plugs and you'll be all set.

funny you should mention OEM coils + RB wires because that's what I took off and replaced it with the BHR. :D:

Don't forget the brackets, a 1-year (often actually longer than that) warranty, everything pre-assembled for easy installation, and easy access to me in the event help is needed or concerns are realized.

You really wanna add about 40-45% dwell time across the board as the Yukons only need a max of 4.8 mS or so for optimal output. The LS-2 coils are a bit less than that.

Thanks :) Think thats sufficient even if I"m pushing....big numbers? I have these 900cc injectors....and this big turbo you see.....and the itch is...growing. :D:

what's the difference between the ignition harness and the ignition upgrade for $485?

why wouldn't everyone go the BHR route if it's been a proven reliability mod... OEM coils + wires alone will run $200ish whereas the upgraded harness system is $215.

The harness is simply a harness that allows one to build their own kit (should they so choose) and I can even build custom-length harnesses for remote coil locations. Same with the spark plug wires since I hand-build them my-damned-self. :)

The kit is the whole "shebang" and it is pre-assembled for easy installation.

This is the point that people are still reluctant to accept or have their skepticisms about (and I really don't blame them, given the nature of the performance aftermarket); of the effective mods for the RX-8, BHR really as them all nailed down. Take a look at our product line; Cobb AccessPort, ignition system, lightweight flywheel, lightweight clutch, the first of the effective radiators (even for A/T use), reinforced clutch pedal assembly, and so on.

If one of our products isn't something we can stand behind with our entire reputation, then we don't bother with it. Whether we build it or resell it, doesn't matter; we better love it or I ain't selling it.

Thanks :) Think thats sufficient even if I"m pushing....big numbers? I have these 900cc injectors....and this big turbo you see.....and the itch is...growing. :D:

Yep, but here's something else; at the torque peak is where the dwell time is most crucial as that is where you will have the highest housing pressures and the higher the pressure, the more difficult for the coil to arc the plug. Before and after the torque peak, in the RPM range, you can back off a bit on the dwell time so as to let the coils "relax" a bit. Pretty much let the coil dwell times follow the shape of the torque peak and you'll be fine and your coils will last a LONG time.

The harness is simply a harness that allows one to build their own kit (should they so choose) and I can even build custom-length harnesses for remote coil locations. Same with the spark plug wires since I hand-build them my-damned-self. :)

The kit is the whole "shebang" and it is pre-assembled for easy installation.

This is the point that people are still reluctant to accept or have their skepticisms about (and I really don't blame them, given the nature of the performance aftermarket); of the effective mods for the RX-8, BHR really as them all nailed down. Take a look at our product line; Cobb AccessPort, ignition system, lightweight flywheel, lightweight clutch, the first of the effective radiators (even for A/T use), reinforced clutch pedal assembly, and so on.

If one of our products isn't something we can stand behind with our entire reputation, then we don't bother with it. Whether we build it or resell it, doesn't matter; we better love it or I ain't selling it.

Sorry I'm a bit slow...

So the ignition harness is something I'd buy to modify my existing stock ignition system to accept the yukon coils

the ignition system is the harness plus a new ignition, all in one piece to bolt on and replace the stock ignition setup

i guess my bottom line again is instead of ordering OEM coils and whichever wires, can I order the BHR ignition harness with the added yukon coils and MSD wires instead? or is there additional things I have to buy with the harness kit to make it work?

Yep, but here's something else; at the torque peak is where the dwell time is most crucial as that is where you will have the highest housing pressures and the higher the pressure, the more difficult for the coil to arc the plug. Before and after the torque peak, in the RPM range, you can back off a bit on the dwell time so as to let the coils "relax" a bit. Pretty much let the coil dwell times follow the shape of the torque peak and you'll be fine and your coils will last a LONG time.

Fantastic info, thanks :)

The time that either my plugs and/or coils need to be replaced (originals replaced once so far @ 42k miles, currently @ 55k miles) will be the time I get the BHR ignition kit :D

Sorry I'm a bit slow...

So the ignition harness is something I'd buy to modify my existing stock ignition system to accept the yukon coils

the ignition system is the harness plus a new ignition, all in one piece to bolt on and replace the stock ignition setup

i guess my bottom line again is instead of ordering OEM coils and whichever wires, can I order the BHR ignition harness with the added yukon coils and MSD wires instead? or is there additional things I have to buy with the harness kit to make it work?

The harness, $125 shipped in the 48 States, is a "plug-and-play" harness that allows you to easily plug a set of LS-2, Yukon, or MSD 8247 coils into your factory harness. No cutting, no splicing. :)

The BHR Ignition System, $485 shipped in the 48 States, is a baseplate, brackets, coils, the harness, and MSD spark plug wires preassembled for the easiest of installations. It takes about an hour to install, on average. Nothing else will be needed and I even discount the NGK spark plugs to $72 when ordered with the kit.

It usually takes about 2-3 weeks to ship the kits out and Easy_E1 and I have been churning these things out like crazy. We just shipped 20+ kits last week.

The harness, $125 shipped in the 48 States, is a "plug-and-play" harness that allows you to easily plug a set of LS-2, Yukon, or MSD 8247 coils into your factory harness. No cutting, no splicing. :)

The BHR Ignition System, $485 shipped in the 48 States, is a baseplate, brackets, coils, the harness, and MSD spark plug wires preassembled for the easiest of installations. It takes about an hour to install, on average. Nothing else will be needed and I even discount the NGK spark plugs to $72 when ordered with the kit.

It usually takes about 2-3 weeks to ship the kits out and Easy_E1 and I have been churning these things out like crazy. We just shipped 20+ kits last week.
Thank you for answering the same questions I had. Not the most mechanically inclined here.

What does one get when they choose "Add Yukon Coil/MSD Coil Wires" to the Ignition Harness for $90 more for $215 total?

Is one getting 4 ACDelco D585 Yukon coils and MSD coil wires?
I assume these are the MSD coil wires? http://blackhaloracing.com/files/wpsc/product_images/thumbnails/msdsparkplugwires%20(1).jpg

It sounds like if we stick with stock coils, we should change at every 30K mile servicing (at least)?

How long do the Yukon coils last in a stock set up? Just wondering how often (miles) I'm going to have to replace the ACDelco D585 coils.

1) What does one get when they choose "Add Yukon Coil/MSD Coil Wires" to the Ignition Harness for $90 more for $215 total?

2) How long do the Yukon coils last in a stock set up? Just wondering how often (miles) I'm going to have to replace the ACDelco D585 coils.

1) You were looking at the harness-only ordering option and not the full kit.

2) In their GM application, they routinely last as long as 100,000 miles/10 years.

The complete BHR Ignition System includes a baseplate, coil brackets, coils, a "plug-and-play" coil conversion harness (patent-pending), a set of MSD spark plug wires, a 1-year warranty on materials and workmanship, and shipping in the 48 States all for $485 via "BlackHaloRacing.com". There, you will also find an option to order a set of OEM spark plugs at a discounted price.

Just in case anyone is interested, the GMC Yukon ACD585 coil yields 48000 V maximum voltage; 92:1 turns ratio; 0.2 Ohms Primary Resistance; 6.7 k Ohms secondary resistance