I've had my car running for a while now, and while I'm still waiting on an updated tune from Jeff (hint!) I decided I really need to sort out the boost controller now. Because of all the problems we had on the dyno, including a malfunctioning MAF Jeff didn't make a lot of adjustments to the boost controller and it needs to be straightened out.

I'm getting little to no boost in 1st gear, and boost is coming on late in the rpms for all gears. This isn't a big deal while I'm finishing getting it tuned, but it won't hurt me to get it set properly while the tune is worked on. Any advice with viable settings for the thing would be helpful. I'm not really familiar with making changes to the BC, but I am targetting 10-11 psi. That is what I was running in the upper ranges before, although it wasn't coming on until late in the rpms.

Look at Kane's thread for setting up the Boost Controller.

Cliff notes: Basically put the start boost about 1psi LESS than the PSI you want to run. This will cause you to peak then taper boost. Use the Set to hold boost, then the Gain to adjust any dips.

Kane's thread goes much more in-depth tho, with pictures too!

I've read Kane's thread, which is pretty helpful, but I don't know an easy way to see my boost curve. I have a boost gauge, but it doesn't go to a datalogger so unless I get my wife to ride shotgun and pen down values at various RPMS, I don't have an easy way to see the curve. What is the accepted way of monkeying with this?

Also, my boost curve varies hugely between gears, currently showing minimal boost in 1st, but up to 11 lbs in upper gears.

Alright, I did some research on the web including Kane's thread and some other resources to learn about the settings on the Profec B. I felt comfortable enough to make a few changes to the BC before I drove home from my folks place tonight.

A few things I noticed... first of all, the design of the Profec B is really lousy. Setting your SET (boost pressure) by specifying a percentage of maximum flow is really stupid. I wouldn't be surprised if this decision alone is responsible for a lot of blown engines. My SET was configured at 35% from the dyno session with Jeff, so I left it alone initially.

The main thing I was concerned with was boost response, so I changed the SET GAIN (Start Boost). It was set really low (although not 0) which explains my poor boost response. Because I wasn't sure exactly the boost pressure 35% SET would result in with the settings changed I raised it to 44 kPa. I know I have been able to reach 11 psi (76 kPa) with the current settings so this gave me plenty of window to remove the possibility of surge.

The next thing I noticed is how insanely huge a difference changing the SET GAIN makes. My boost was spooling up very fast and instead of hesitating or falling off was moving smoothly up, and wasn't stopping at 10 psi. I didn't push it, so I was shifting before boost rose past 10 psi, but my guess is that 35% is too aggressive for what I want, so I lowered it to 31% SET. My current numbers are:

SET: 31%
SET GAIN (Start Boost): 41 kPa
Target Boost: 69 kPa (just over 10 psi)
WARNING: 76 kPa
LIMITER: 4%

This should give me a bit less max boost (hopefully ~10 psi) with snappier response time, and a 1 psi range for the warning to kick in and drop the boost by 4%. I did not make any changes to the GAIN setting, and forgot to record what Jeff had it set at. I did not notice any falloff of the boost during my runs on the way home, boost was rising steadily. I'll keep an eye on it with the change in SET.

Please let me know if anything in these numbers is crazy or I made a major mistake in setting this up. I just started reading about electronic boost controllers today, and started making minor changes to try and get the car where I want it. If there are any suggestions I'm all ears. I also noticed there is no way to control the variable boost response through the gears with this EBC, which is unfortunate.

I'm not positive but don't you have 3 boost control options?:

-Start Boost
-Set
-Gain

At least that how it is on my GReddy E-01 EBC

I would bump the Start Boost up a little. The longer you can delay signal to the w/g actuator the faster your turbo will spool (generally)

The by far easiest and safest way to do this is to turn your SET and GAIN to 0. Then if you are shooting for 10psi, put your START BOOST to 9psi and watch for a small spike. You could do 8.5psi or so. You will hit 9.5-10.5psi then boost will fall off fast.

Then go back to your SET and start dialing it up. Like Kane says, aim small miss small, so make small changes so you don't overshoot anything. At first move the SET by gains of 10 (eg. 10, 20, 30...) then when you getting closer to holding that 10psi (or whatever boost you want) start making small changes, like multiples of 5, then when you are really close just makes changes 1 or 2 clicks at a time.

Once you have your SET finalized you can now go back and "Fill in the gaps" and adjust the GAIN to make it a steady hold of boost throughout the RPM band.

Hope this helps

^^^ Yeah that.

You don't need to log it per-say; although it helps.... just have someone monitor the gauge for you.

On the Profec B spec 2 the options are named stupid things, its SET and SET GAIN which is Start Boost... I found this thread: http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-how-requests-questions-tips/60826-how-tune-your-greddy-profec-b-spec-ii.html on the Evo forums that helped figure out what was what. I'll bump my start boost up a bit to see how I can increase the response. One thing about the way it is currently set up now, I have no boost spikes that I've seen. Boost rises predictably, so if I'm overshooting my target boost I throttle off. I'll check what my gain settings are at. Thanks for the help guys. :)

There are a couple different ways of doing this. Some set the START BOOST first, then the SET, then the GAIN, then make small adjustments. Others do the SET first (leaving START BOOST at a low number), then START BOOST, then GAIN. Usually some small level of fiddling is required afterwards as has been mentioned already. Some people want a small spike, others don't.

Setting your SET (boost pressure) by specifying a percentage of maximum flow is really stupid.

Read up on EBC's more, I did go into a really lengthy and technical discussion in Kane's thread about what SET, SET GAIN (start boost), and GAIN actually mean. SET has nothing to do with what boost pressure you want for your car. There are no settings in the Profec Spec II that directly tell the EBC what peak boost you desire. What SET does is indicate how often the boost control solenoid should be cycled on or off. It is no different than the way that fuel injectors are cycled on or off.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145390&stc=1&d=1253075138

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=145391&stc=1&d=1253076295

Here are some boost control settings from a factory Subaru AP map.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146463&stc=1&d=1254808279

On the bottom is a solenoid duty vs throttle position map. That is the equivalent of both the SET and the START BOOST settings in the Profec--the cells where the duty is very high corresponds to the wastegate being held shut, kind of like START BOOST. On the top there is a boost target map. The boost target map is used for the gain control in the ECU and tells the ECU what pressure it should attempt to achieve using its closed-loop logic. It's kind of like how the PCM knows to target 14.7:1 under emissions controlled operation. There is no direct equivalent to this boost target map in the Profec; it simply does not have that level of complexity and adjustability, but some EBC's like the AVC-R do.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=146464&stc=1&d=1254808279

These are other correction maps in the Subaru AP. One is for changes in IAT, another is for different rpms. The two gain settings correspond to the gain setting in the Profec. The Profec makes assumptions about what boost you are trying to achieve using calculus. More adjustable EBC's tell the controller directly. The AEM EMS and other standalones have similar types of maps.

You can see then that Profec Spec II is a simplified/dumbed down version of OEM designs.

Ahhh, that makes a lot more sense now. I would have thought for an aftermarket BC that the Profec B would have options that were a little more "end-user" friendly, but I actually looked through the manual more closely last night and it made a lot more sense. Thanks for all of the pictures. :D I'm still making some adjustments right now, but I'm following the "make small changes" rule.

Dear god, my car drives amazingly now... I still need some tweaking, but the changes I've made so far are absolutely night and day. It's as big a change from going NA to turbo in the first place. I didn't have a lot to compare my car against originally, but feeling the car now I feel like an idiot. The turbo is fully spooled early, and has a wide band of power. I was overshooting my target boost value so I tweaked the SET and GAIN values a bit today... my GAIN value was cranked really high from the original settings Jeff had used on the dyno, so I turned the GAIN down by 15% and the SET up by 2%. This is giving me about 10 psi with an 11 psi warning. God DAMN the car is fast now. I can't imagine how fast the thing must feel with 14 psi...

I can see there is really an art to setting these things up... I had perfect response with a very linear boost curve, but it was still going above my target psi value. I'm keeping a close eye on the boost gauge and have the warning/limit set on the EBC so no problems, its just going above the desired pressure. I tried dropping the GAIN value and tweaking the SET a bit more, but it lost the boost response I had with the previous settings. I think my GAIN is still set too high and SET too low. Start Boost seems good, the spoolup is damn near instantaneous with no boost spikes. I'm going to drop the GAIN back to nearly 0 and try and get the SET value where I want it as you guys said originally.

Yeah it makes a HUGE difference. My car feels stupid fast now after I re-did my boost controller. 14psi is just crazy fun!

Did you get your transmission sorted out chicken? I actually have my boost turned down a bit right now as I'm sorting this, aiming for about 10 psi. Once I get used to that, we'll see. :)

Yeah I think I got the transmission sorted. I still think I may do the FD trans swap down the road or I am going to look into the high strength gearsets from PAR that Team posted info about

I can see there is really an art to setting these things up... I had perfect response with a very linear boost curve, but it was still going above my target psi value. I'm keeping a close eye on the boost gauge and have the warning/limit set on the EBC so no problems, its just going above the desired pressure. I tried dropping the GAIN value and tweaking the SET a bit more, but it lost the boost response I had with the previous settings. I think my GAIN is still set too high and SET too low. Start Boost seems good, the spoolup is damn near instantaneous with no boost spikes. I'm going to drop the GAIN back to nearly 0 and try and get the SET value where I want it as you guys said originally.

Yes that is pretty much what I described was the best way for me. Set and Gain to 0 - work start boost, then set, then finish with gain.

Alright, I've been fighting with my configuration for about a week now and have continued to have problems. I went out with my wife for about an hour and did continuous 3rd and 4th gear pulls on a slight incline on a long straight open road. I would call out changes to the EBC to her and she would change them. I would drop the speed down and do another WOT pull, and make further adjustments.

I was very happy with the response of the turbo and the boost curve, but regardless of what changes I made I would continue to overshoot my boost target. Today I dropped all of the settings to 0 and began again from scratch with just the START BOOST. I was still having overboosting problems... so I decided to just turn the EBC off entirely. Guess what? I'm still going over my boost target.

What is the MM actuator that comes with the 3071R set up for? I thought it was a 9 PSI actuator that would give ~7 PSI without a BC?? Either it is incorrectly installed, tightened down beyond reason or something funny is going on because without the GReddy Profec I hit nearly 12 PSI before I throttled off with no sign of dropoff. :uhh:

Any suggestions? I can't really make any modifications to the BC to sort this out if the WG alone is putting me over my boost target. I either need to drop the boost manually, or just say fuck it and go with a higher target boost and see where this thing tops out. :Eyecrazy:

I choose option 2, but it isn't my money lol. Good luck

Assuming everything was hooked up correctly, you must have a high flowing exhaust that is overwhelming the wastegate. You are running no cat? This is not uncommon on an uncorked rotary. It's hard enough to control boost with external gates. With no boost controller I couldn't consistently hold the 10psi on an HKS 40mm external wastegate dumped to atmosphere. That was on a T04S 60-1, basically the BNR compressor wheel but with a much higher flowing housings and a bigger turbine wheel. My exhaust was full 3" from the turbo back with straight midpipe and 3" RB dual exhaust for the 2nd gen Rx-7. I ended up switching to a better manifold, larger Tial 44mm wastegate, and a 13psi spring so I could run 16psi easily.

Try increasing the tension in the wastegate actuator progressively. First see if you can get it to hold 10psi without a boost controller. Otherwise you will have to choke down the exhaust in some way. Keep your timing maps conservative at this point. At 10 psi I'd do 12-15 degrees leading advance with 15 split, AFR's in the low 11's, with four 9 heat range plugs.

Assuming everything was hooked up correctly, you must have a high flowing exhaust that is overwhelming the wastegate. You are running no cat? This is not uncommon on an uncorked rotary. It's hard enough to control boost with external gates. With no boost controller I couldn't consistently hold the 10psi on an HKS 40mm external wastegate dumped to atmosphere. That was on a T04S 60-1, basically the BNR compressor wheel but with a much higher flowing housings and a bigger turbine wheel. My exhaust was full 3" from the turbo back with straight midpipe and 3" RB dual exhaust for the 2nd gen Rx-7. I ended up switching to a better manifold, larger Tial 44mm wastegate, and a 13psi spring so I could run 16psi easily.

Try increasing the tension in the wastegate actuator progressively. First see if you can get it to hold 10psi without a boost controller. Otherwise you will have to choke down the exhaust in some way. Keep your timing maps conservative at this point. At 10 psi I'd do 12-15 degrees leading advance with 15 split, AFR's in the low 11's, with four 9 heat range plugs.

I'm a little confused though... if I was getting high exhaust pressure which was overwhelming the wastegate it would be pre-opening the WG which would reduce the PSI I am hitting, not giving me higher than expected PSI values. I'm not having an issue with the car being able to reach and maintain the desired pressure, I'm having problems with it going far above what I expected and desire.

With the modifications I had made on the EBC I was getting incredibly fast response from the turbo and having no dropoff of power whatsoever, I was just continuing to get boost pressures in excess of 11 PSI. My targetted boost pressure was 10 PSI/69 kPa and even with the boost controller completely turned off I'm overshooting this easily. With just the wastegate I hit 12 PSI today...

The only thing I can think of is that the wastegate is not correctly opening at all. That would give me a positive feedback loop where the boost will continue to rise forever until the turbo cannot physically flow more or something breaks (which is more likely). As the actuator that Jeff includes with the 3071R is not designed to hit the boost pressures I'm seeing, I'm pretty sure that it is failing to engage unless someone has a better explanation.

My exhaust flow is unrestricted with a catless non-resonated midpipe and a 3'' HKS single outlet behind that, but I don't expect that is a contributing factor to my problem since that would be working against the problem I'm having. Jeff is still working on my tune as I'm running a bit leaner than I like in 1st and 2nd and too rich over 305 g/s especially in the upper gears. The car is drivable with the current tune though, I just cannot go past a certain point in revs at WOT because the boost goes dangerously high.

Check the tension on your w/g actuator....it's only a 9psi w/g so I think your arm is preloaded too much...

Mine is wayyy out, with the ebc off I only hit 5psi LOL.

Preloaded too much maybe; not opening at all would be my guess. I've taken it up to 12 psi a couple of times now and it doesn't show any sign of leveling off... a 9 psi w/g should not be hitting those numbers regardless of the pre-load without a modification to the actuator I would think.

check to see how much tension there is on the wastegate due to the actuator. there may be too much preload. it would cause overboosting.

i doubt that the wastegate is not opening, rather too much tension and less travel in the arm will reduce the wastegates responsiveness and cause overboosting.

Yeah man, I bet PFS tightened in that arm all the way down. I would back it off a little. Can't hurt anything- see what happens. It only takes literally 60 seconds to do once the car is jacked up haha

Yeah, I'll try and get it jacked up Saturday... its funny because when Jeff was trying to tune the car because of the MAF problems he couldn't get it above 8.5 PSI. He thought the wastegate actuator probably needed to be tightened up, but once I sorted out the MAF pipes far the opposite seems to be true. I'll let you know what I find when I get under there.

Ugh. I managed to get some time to jack the car up today... and I think I'm done putting this car up on jackstands until I get a better jack. Currently the car is so low to get it up on stands I need to use the mini-garbage-jack that comes with the car, then use another larger jack that won't fit under the car otherwise, then put the jackstands down. Also because of the location of the turbo I needed to raise both sides of the car substantially to get my fat head under there. Then I found that while I could see and even touch the actuator, I couldn't for the life of me adjust the bar without either removing the support strut (which I didn't have time for) or putting it up on an actual lift. There is no play on the actuator bar, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Either the actuator is tightened down too tight, the actuator itself is broken, or the boost controller valve that its plumbed through for vacuum is broken. I have to leave early tomorrow for work in Tampa so I won't get to monkey with this more until I get back, but I think I'm going to swap the vacuum line for the actuator to the VFAD instead of going through the boost controller valve just in case that is causing the problem. If I'm still overboosting then its definitely a problem with the actuator and I will get it up on a lift and see if I can get the rod adjusted. If that doesn't work then the actuator itself is probably bad and I need to bug Jeff for a replacement.

it would have been simple to check if the actuator was to tight. take the c-clip of, pull the screw rod off the wastegate arm and see how far back it releases to its no tension position.

it would have been simple to check if the actuator was to tight. take the c-clip of, pull the screw rod off the wastegate arm and see how far back it releases to its no tension position.

That just wasn't possible from where I was... it shouldn't be a problem if I get it up on a lift where I can actually reach the thing.

I did my whole turbo install on jackstands LOL, it's not impossible. Just pull the big ass bolt, then the two smaller bolts of the front cross member, then the two smaller ones on the driver sides, and just loosen the big one and swing it out of the way...

I hear ya on jack situation. I can't even get the factory scissor jack under my side skirts...in order to jack up the front end of my car I have to jack up under the diff, place a jackstand under the rear, drop it, THEN jack up the front and put a jackstand under it. I HATE it when I have to jack up my car, that's why I am looking at getting THIS (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DMR-1375659/) once I have the money saved up, haha

You have my absolute pity for doing the install on jackstands chicken, thats horrible. The clearance down there is just miserable. I could have reached the actuator today if I swung the cross member out of my way, but I was running really tight on time and knew I wouldn't be able to monkey with it for much more. That toy from Summit is beautiful though, I wouldn't mind one myself. :) Then again, I wouldn't mind a garage for that matter.

Alright, well... I am back in town and I've done a fair bit more work on trying to get this thing fixed. I got the car up on a lift today and examined the actuator and wastegate more closely. The actuator is moving and has tons of clearance space. I disconnected the pin and checked the travel on the wastegate itself and the actuator individually... both of them seemed largely fine. The actuator rod was actually a bit long, it looked like the wastegate was not fully closed at rest, so I tightened it 1.5 turns and reattached it. I used a vacuum pump to push air into the actuator nipple and the wastegate swung open fine.

I took the car on the road with the EBC turned off, but I was still seeing higher than expected boost pressures. Looks like my initial guess on the problem was wrong. For my next step I'm going to disconnect the EBC completely and try to get the car to behave with just the stock wastegate. Before I do this though I want to get some opinions on the way I have the vacuum lines set up now. When I originally installed the gauge cluster with Im_DANOMite we ran the vacuum line for the boost gauge to the lower intake manifold. There is a nipple on the side near the stock windshield wiper fluid reservoir that we used. It produced a strong and steady vacuum signal so I left it that way when the turbo was installed. PF Supercars installed the boost controller and BOV routing them to the VFAD nipple.

Just to make sure you have a visual of how things are connected, I got all Professor MSPaint and have an example of how things are set up now, and then what I propose to do to test the actuator. Let me know if this is doomed to failure, or if the locations I have these vacuum hoses wired to are just all around bad to begin with.

The first diagram is how I have things set up now. The boost controller valve has a vacuum signal from the VFAD, an output line to the intake tube, and a line to the actuator. The boost gauge is the only thing plumbed to the LIM right now with the BOV getting vacuum from a T-connector off the VFAD. It is also recirced back into the pipes.

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The second diagram is what I propose to remove the boost controller from the loop without disconnecting a ton of lines. Basically I want to leave all of the EBC vacuum lines right where they are, but removing the line from the valve to the actuator and capping it off. Then I would take the actuator line and run it to a T-connector into the LIM nipple where the boost gauge is getting its signal. That does several things for me... it puts the gauge and the actuator on the exact same vacuum source, it removes the EBC valve from the picture, and it keeps the whole system intact if the problem ends up being the actuator and not the valve or some other part of the EBC setup.

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Is this reasonable?

You're wastegate is setup incorrectly.

Since you have the GT3071R there should be a threaded nipple right off the turbo's compressor discharge. That goes to your w/g actuator with the boost controller solenoid plumbed in-between that hose.

Everything else should be hooked up to the VFAD nipple- BOV, Boost gauge, EBC signal. This is probably why you are overboosting.

Ahhhh, there is a vacuum source on the turbo compressor for the w/g actuator? Hmmm, how hard is that going to be to reach? So the EBC valve vacuum line that is currently going to the w/g actuator needs to go to a T-connector in between the compressor and the actuator?

^^correct..the way chickenwafer described it is how i have mine setup..

im acutally in the process of trying to setup my boost controller settings now too..i started off with 2.5 psi..now im at currently at 7 psi then falling off to 5psi pretty quickly ***i noticed theres a difference between my ebc signal and my prosport gauge, roughly 1-2 psi and they are both plumbed to the vfad source***

FYI, gregs, every single ProSport boost gauge (mechanical) I have seen isn't worth shit.

i have the electrical prosport guages...but im still sure they are not entirely accurate but they sure look sweet..lol

Ahhhh, there is a vacuum source on the turbo compressor for the w/g actuator? Hmmm, how hard is that going to be to reach? So the EBC valve vacuum line that is currently going to the w/g actuator needs to go to a T-connector in between the compressor and the actuator?

Is this correct then?

I'm just worried about this being something I can even reach without yanking the damn turbo out. It sure doesn't sound like it... :mad:

^^that is correct..you shouldnt need to remove the turbo to access those lines..just remove the passenger wheel for ease of access...

Ok, thats not a problem, I have intermittent access to a garage with a lift... so I can remove that wheel pretty easily. Anybody have a picture of the 3071R where the vacuum nipple is that I'm supposed to have a line to? I wonder how PFS blocked it off.

I've got plenty of extra vacuum lines, so I can take a single piece of line, cut it in half, attach them with a T-connector and run one end from the actuator to the vacuum nipple by the compressor. Then I can take the line currently connected to the actuator (running to the EBC solenoid valve) to the T-connector.

Is there a reason why I should not have my boost controller unit and the boost gauge plumbed in to the lower intake manifold? That is where they are both going right now and the vacuum signal seems strong and reliable. Everything else goes to VFAD but I wanted to avoid a nest of T-connectors and vacuum lines run halfway across the engine if possible.

Is there a reason why I should not have my boost controller unit and the boost gauge plumbed in to the lower intake manifold? That is where they are both going right now and the vacuum signal seems strong and reliable. Everything else goes to VFAD but I wanted to avoid a nest of T-connectors and vacuum lines run halfway across the engine if possible.

If something's up with your compressor housing pressure source, you can drill and tap intercooler piping before the FMIC for a pressure source as well. Use an 11/32" drill bit and 1/8" NPT tap. Then you can get a 1/8 NPT --> 3/16" or 1/4" brass barb fitting from the hardware store. Seal the threads with a light coat of RTV. I prefer the gray or blue stuff for air fittings because the black is thick and unsightly. Make sure your vacuum hose has a tight fit. If this blows off you've got a big problem on your hands. I actually use stainless steel line for my main wastegate connection.

Now here's how the pressure source location works with an internal wastegate actuator.

The more pressure applied to the actuator, the sooner it will open up. Remember though that there are pressure drops across the intercooler and the rest of the plumbing. If you measured boost pressure in the compressor housing and boost pressure in the LIM at any given time, it would be lower in the LIM. With less pressure being applied to the actuator it will reduce its response. Although there may be times when tapping an intake manifold is appropriate, for an internally wastegated setup with boost control issues your plumbing is not a good idea.

What you should do now is run a line from the compressor outlet or pre FMIC intercooler piping directly to the wastegate. Leave the solenoid out. If the boost still creeps, you may be outflowing your wastegate. That's a very common problem on a rotary with an open exhaust.

Here is where the threaded nipple should be- it's cast into the compressor discharge (gold barb at top of picture):

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q287/chickenwafer/turboinstall035.jpg

another angle, the barb isn't threaded in but you can see the hole right near the compressor discharge outlet:

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q287/chickenwafer/turboinstall026.jpg

Just run a length of vacuum hose from the w/g actuator to your boost control solenoid, then back down to the barb off the turbo. You're just putting the boost controller solenoid in-between signal and actuator, this is how the ebc modifies w/g signal.

The first diagram is how I have things set up now. The boost controller valve has a vacuum signal from the VFAD, an output line to the intake tube, and a line to the actuator. The boost gauge is the only thing plumbed to the LIM right now with the BOV getting vacuum from a T-connector off the VFAD. It is also recirced back into the pipes.

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This looks very wrong to me .
I assume you are talking about the boost solenoid valve here (not the profec controller itself)- mine has only two lines going to it . One from a pressure source BEFORE the throttle plate and one going to the wastegate actuator .
Your pressure source for the solenoid should NOT be coming from after the throttle plate .
Edit - do it like chicken mentions above ....

I assume you are talking about the boost solenoid valve here (not the profec controller itself)- mine has only two lines going to it .

If you have the solenoid hooked up using the NO port, the NC port can be hooked to the intake to reduce noise. What happens is that, with the solenoid disengaged, air can pass from the NO port ("Normally Open," from the pressure source) to the wastegate actuator. When the controller cycles the solenoid ON, the NO port closes and no pressure is allowed to enter the wastegate. But the NC port ("Normally Closed") OPENS and vents pressure from the line. The pressure can be vented to the atmosphere or can be vented back into the intake.

These diagrams from the Perrin boost control solenoid explains what I'm talking about, it's the same plumbing.

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/boost_control/boostcontrolsystemperrinlelectronic10psi.jpg

http://www.perrinperformance.com/shared/images/jeff_pics/boost_control/boostcontrolsystemperrinlelectronicplusboost.jpg

and here's an in-depth article on the plumbing side of boost control: http://www.perrinperformance.com/pages/show/113

If you have the solenoid hooked up using the NO port, the NC port can be hooked to the intake to reduce noise. ]

OK
but my main point is that he hooked into the UIM for his pressure source for the solenoid . This would create all sorts of boost control issues - especially at part throttle .

FWIW - Similar issues can occur (in some setups ) when you take the signal for the EBC from the UIM . But that is another argument discussed in some detail elsewhere ......

Alright, I think I've figured this out. First off, I apologize for being a dumbass. I really should have researched this more before asking for help with this, because I would have found the problem more quickly if I had really known what I was looking for. I made some assumptions about how they set up the boost controller, and when I traced the lines I was in a rush. When PF Supercars installed it they ran one of the lines from the VFAD around the engine bay and under the lining on the left side of the car under where the EBC valve was mounted so it looked like it ran into the bottom of the valve. When I looked at it more closely today I saw it wasn't actually connected to it.

The way the GReddy manual says to install it is like this diagram:

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The way things are currently set up is ACTUALLY like this:


Main unit runs a line to T-connector at VFAD passing through supplied air filter
BOV runs to T-connector at VFAD
Boost gauge runs to LIM
Valve unit has one line from the COM port directly to actuator, another from the NO port to the intake tube


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So the line from the NO port is supposed to go to the turbo compressor housing and instead is going to one of the empty nipples on the AEM intake pipe. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the intake pipe is before the throttle body and is not a good source for vacuum for the valve unit. If I disconnect this line and run it to the compressor housing and block off the nipple on the intake pipe it should be configured properly. The only thing plumbed to the LIM is the boost gauge, everything else is connected to the VFAD.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=147266&d=1256162107

Are you SURE that's how it's hooked up? that's a major gaffe, you could've blown a motor that way. Anything hooked to the turbo inlet pipe will not see boost.

Hook the NO port to the compressor housing. Either vent the NC port or run it to that same intake nipple.

Yeah, its definitely how its hooked up... I wasn't concerned when I first saw it because I thought it was a third vacuum line to vent excess from the valve... nope. I'll take a picture of it before I change it (charging camera). It certainly explains why I was seeing absolutely NO falloff of boost. It was acting like the wastegate was staying completely closed ....which it was. I'm going to swap the line to the proper location tomorrow.

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=147265&d=1256162064
this is the way you should hook it up dont use the second picture.. the first one is the way to hook it up..the first picture where it shows fuel pressure regulator that is your vfad source..**the second picture looks like the boost controller signal **the vacuum line that connects to the back of the boost controller is plummed into the intake which will not see boost levels...

Right gregs, I just figured that out today that the line going to the intake was not an output line but the NO port and would never see pressure. It explained all my problems immediately. 5000+ miles with no wastegate! Woo. Thanks PF Supercars.

Holy shit that is an epic fail. How the hell can a shop mess it up that bad??

So what did PFS do with the nipple off the turbos compressor housing? Is it just left open? If so you have a good boost leak going.

Well, I have no idea how the nipple on the compressor is closed off, I need to check it tomorrow... but I know nothing is run to it because the line from the actuator the EBC valve is the only vacuum line down there.

I went back and double checked the way the line is connected to the pipe and don't know how the vacuum works for the pipe its connected to actually. I was still thinking naturally aspirated when I looked at the location because its the pipe that feeds the throttle body that the vacuum line from the valve is plugged into. It's the same pipe the BOV is on in front of the throttle body though. That pipe should have positive pressure in boost. It might not be an ideal spot to connect the line, but its not the unpressurized pipe I was thinking. Here is a picture of my engine bay with the EBC valve circled on the left and the line plumbed into the pipe circled on the right.

147275

Would this be overboosting because the pressure is low from going through the intercooler before getting to the vacuum line where it is located? Not even counting any issues from the increase in pressure from throttling off and the loss of pressure when the BOV vents...

Yeah that is causing all your issues. The pressure drop with all the charge piping, intercooler, plus the closing of the TB and BOV messes things up.

Jesus Christo..... that is bad news.

. Here is a picture of my engine bay with the EBC valve circled on the left and the line plumbed into the pipe circled on the right.

147275

Would this be overboosting because the pressure is low from going through the intercooler before getting to the vacuum line where it is located? Not even counting any issues from the increase in pressure from throttling off and the loss of pressure when the BOV vents...

nothing wrong with that spot at all for the solenoid valve pressure source .
It's where mine is plugged into and it works perfectly . It actually works to your advantage (albeit minor) at higher rpm .
At about the same time the wastegate starts to get forced open by exhaust gases there is also a bigger pressure drop across the intercooler (due to choking of the intercooler) thereby giving less psi to the solenoid control valve and thus the actuator .
This allows you to hold a little more boost for longer on the same EBC setting . In my case I gained about 10g/s over a 1000rpm rev band by piping it that way vs straight off the turbo .

BTW you should stop referring to that tube as a vacuum line - it isn't . It's a pressure line .
There are 4 areas of intake tubing
*Intake - pre turbo - always under slight vacumm
*Charge tube -post turbo - pre intercooler - pressurised
*Charge tube - post intercooler - pre throttle body - pressurised but a little less than pre intercooler
*Inlet manifold - upper and lower - post throttle body - pressureised when throttle is open and turbo spooled - in vacuum when throttle closed .

What exactly is your problem again ?
From what I understand - you can floor the throttle with the boost controller off and get more boost than what the stock (9psi) actuator should allow . Is that it or is it only at part throttle that you have this issue ?

Also , is that a greddy type RS VTA BOV you are using ?

nothing wrong with that spot at all for the solenoid valve pressure source .
It's where mine is plugged into and it works perfectly . It actually works to your advantage (albeit minor) at higher rpm .
At about the same time the wastegate starts to get forced open by exhaust gases there is also a bigger pressure drop across the intercooler (due to choking of the intercooler) thereby giving less psi to the solenoid control valve and thus the actuator .
This allows you to hold a little more boost for longer on the same EBC setting . In my case I gained about 10g/s over a 1000rpm rev band by piping it that way vs straight off the turbo .

BTW you should stop referring to that tube as a vacuum line - it isn't . It's a pressure line .
There are 4 areas of intake tubing
*Intake - pre turbo - always under slight vacumm
*Charge tube -post turbo - pre intercooler - pressurised
*Charge tube - post intercooler - pre throttle body - pressurised but a little less than pre intercooler
*Inlet manifold - upper and lower - post throttle body - pressureised when throttle is open and turbo spooled - in vacuum when throttle closed .

What exactly is your problem again ?
From what I understand - you can floor the throttle with the boost controller off and get more boost than what the stock (9psi) actuator should allow . Is that it or is it only at part throttle that you have this issue ?

Also , is that a greddy type RS VTA BOV you are using ?

Thanks for explaining the pressue for those areas, I'm still learning some of this stuff. (clearly heh :scratchhe)

The problem I'm having is basically what you said, I can turn the EBC completely off and floor it and the boost rises steadily over 12 PSI with a stock (9 PSI) actuator. I'm not experiencing any other problems except areas of the tune are too rich; partial boost and high g/sec areas in the upper gears. There is no fluttering of the boost, no problems holding it, it just goes up and up and up. I've been shifting 3000 rpms early before my boost rises too high to avoid any engine damage. I found that by enabling the EBC and tweaking the SET values I can actually make it harder for the boost to climb than with the controller off, so I have it configured that way to give me a wider range of safety.

Well... I fixed it.

I tend to work late, so I rarely get a chance to look under the hood in the daytime during the week, hence some of my shitty detective work in this thread. I went out early before work today to see if I could puzzle out what in the world was going on. PF Supercars attached the wrong pressure lines to the wrong ports on the solenoid valve.

A shop specializing in turbocharged rotaries turned over the car with the pressure sensor line plugged to the actuator and the actuator line plugged to the pipe. I stared at it for a while before I realized it. I swapped the lines... no overboosting. Pressure holds steady around 9 PSI, as the RPMS continue to rise the car starts choking on excess fuel, so I clearly need an update to the tune now as those rpms were never being hit before because boost would rise too high and I would have to throttle off, but boost never goes over 9 PSI.

First off, I apologize for my inconsistent understanding of the setup of the car, and I really appreciate everyone's suggestions helping me track it down and learning more about the car. If I hadn't relyed on a shop to do the installation I would have known all of this myself, but I had really hoped a professional shop would avoid some of the newbie mistakes I was worried I would make. So much for that idea.

Essentially PFS turned over a high compression turbocharged rotary to me with NO wastegate. It's a miracle I haven't blown my motor. I'm so happy that I found the issue, but I'm so incredibly angry at the condition the car was turned over to me in. The list of things they screwed up was so long and included so many basic things. They ran my car for two days on the dyno trying to learn how to tune it with software they didn't understand with a completely screwed up MAF setup, crosswired injectors, and no wastegate.

This was really the last straw for me... the work PFS did was so half-assed its a miracle my engine wasn't blown before it ever got to me. The only reason the car didn't overboost and blow on the dyno is because the MAF and injectors were so badly set up the car couldn't reach more than 8.5 PSI if we tried. I have contacted Ray Wilson from PFS and will be arranging a reimbursement for the labor costs I paid or they will be hearing from my lawyer.

PF Supercars attached the wrong pressure lines to the wrong ports on the solenoid valve.
.

Great to hear .
I'm a little confused as to why that would cause your problem though as I didn't realise that valve would block flow if piped in reverse .

So basically they just had the "COM" and "NO" ports reversed ?

EDIT : They must have hooked one of the pressure lines into the 'NC' vent port - is that what they did ? If so that would explain everything ....

Great to hear .
I'm a little confused as to why that would cause your problem though as I didn't realise that valve would block flow if piped in reverse .

So basically they just had the "com" and "no" ports reversed ?

Yeah, COM and NO ports were reversed... I didn't even think to check that really because it was so basic. It apparently doesn't work in reverse. My boost would rise and rise and rise...

Nothing was hooked into the NC port ?

Nothing was hooked into the NC port ?

I don't think so, I'll take pictures when I get home. I charged my camera yesterday. I will take pictures of where all of the lines connect and you can see for yourself since I fail epicly at MSPaint. :)

Alright, I printed out the GReddy Profec manual and went to compare the valve and lines to the instructions. Now that I have swapped the lines the valve has a line from the COM port to the wastegate actuator, a line from the NO port to the intake pipe behind the BOV, and no line in the NC port.

I went out driving for a while on some larger roads to take some notes on the changes. The car behaves very differently now, the boost actually falls off in certain ranges which I've never seen before, and holds at ~9 PSI for quite a while. I got a long straight stretch of road and went WOT as long as I dared in 4th and 5th with the boost controller turned off and I noticed that the overboosting is not totally gone. In those gears (and presumably 6th) if I keep holding it WOT it holds on ~9 PSI for a while, it stutters on a lot of excess fuel and then after a time it starts overboosting. It's a very different overboosting than before I swapped those lines though. Before when I would overboost it was like I had a perfectly smooth curve of boost that just went higher and higher. Now its like it plateau's and then when it starts flowing a lot of air it continues going up further.

So the wastegate is opening now, but its not flowing enough? Is it opening too late? What are other things I should be looking for at this point?

I guess I'm using the wrong terminology for what I'm seeing as well, I'm seeing something closer to boost creep rather than overboosting. I'm not seeing a sharp spike over my target boost level, its a gradual rise. I don't see how I could really be having an issue with boost creep though as both MM and chickenwafer are running more pressure than I am, and chicken has almost an identical setup and isn't seeing this.

, the boost actually falls off in certain ranges which I've never seen before, and holds at ~9 PSI for quite a while. ?

It is normal for boost to drop away somewhat above 6500 - unless you do some additional mods .



,, it stutters on a lot of excess fuel and then after a time it starts overboosting. ?

by how much ?

by how much ?

It seemed higher the higher gear I was in, but in 5th at WOT (for a while) it stayed steady at ~9 lbs and then moved up steadily to 11 PSI before I throttled off. I was going ridiculously fast on a public road while watching gauges not the road, and scared as hell of letting it boost much higher so I don't know where it would stop if at all.

It seemed higher the higher gear I was in, but in 5th at WOT (for a while) it stayed steady at ~9 lbs and then moved up steadily to 11 PSI before I throttled off. I was going ridiculously fast on a public road while watching gauges not the road, and scared as hell of letting it boost much higher so I don't know where it would stop if at all.

you could try moving the pressure supplying the BC solenoid to down by the turbo outlet as Chicken suggested way back .
It could be that your (stock greddy i presume ?)intercooler is choking and the lower pressure air to the solenoid is having a larger effect than iv'e seen on my setup .

Hmmmmmm, I don't actually have the stock GReddy intercooler, I have the Godspeed (eBay) intercooler. It's definitely possible thats having a larger effect. The turbo outlet probably has a screw blocking that port because I found the copper fitting in the picture someone posted in a box this morning.

Because of how damnably hard it is for me to reach the compressor outlet to put the fitting in and plumb the pressure line in there, can I attach the pressure line from the solenoid valve to the VFAD for testing purposes? Is that a big no no?

Hmmmmmm, I don't actually have the stock GReddy intercooler, I have the Godspeed (eBay) intercooler. It's definitely possible thats having a larger effect. The turbo outlet probably has a screw blocking that port because I found the copper fitting in the picture someone posted in a box this morning.

if it's a big intercooler then your pressure drop across it should not be that much - so it's unlikely that changing the hose will make that much of a difference. But I can't think of anything else you could try atm .
BTW - if I were you I would be testing in 3rd gear and logging mass air flow - much safer than trying to look at the boost guage constantly at ungodly speeds ....

if it's a big intercooler then your pressure drop across it should not be that much - so it's unlikely that changing the hose will make that much of a difference. But I can't think of anything else you could try atm .
BTW - if I were you I would be testing in 3rd gear and logging mass air flow - much safer than trying to look at the boost guage constantly at ungodly speeds ....

It's a larger intercooler than the GReddy one, I don't have the actual size specs handy. I did my initial testing this morning in 3rd and the problem doesn't seem as severe in 3rd, its really noticable in higher gears at higher rpms. I will do some logs shortly though and see what I can see. I'm going to dip out of work early, take some pictures of the engine bay, and get some data logs.

Here are a couple of pictures of the valve and the lines:

Here is the empty NC port:
147310

Here is the red line to the wastegate actuator connected to the COM port: (to make this line reach I had to turn the valve box around as the red line is very short)
147311

A top down view of the valve unit:
147312

The blow off valve line running back to the VFAD, with the other blue line coming from the NO port of the EBC solenoid valve:
147313

If that is a VTA BOV it will probably cause throttle control issues when the boost controller is turned on ....

Wow I can't PFS messed something ELSE up!! Crazy man

Yeah I have the same issue if I'm hauling ass in 5th gear. I keep the throttle pinned and with no EBC boost will start to rise above 9psi at around 6500rpm or more, can't remember. Once I started running over 12psi it doesn't happen as much, but it still does.

I did spike 17psi in a 6th gear pull at a touch over 100mph, that was scary.

Wow I can't PFS messed something ELSE up!! Crazy man

Yeah I have the same issue if I'm hauling ass in 5th gear. I keep the throttle pinned and with no EBC boost will start to rise above 9psi at around 6500rpm or more, can't remember. Once I started running over 12psi it doesn't happen as much, but it still does.

I did spike 17psi in a 6th gear pull at a touch over 100mph, that was scary.

Hmmm... well if you are getting boost creep as well it might not just be me. Our setups are almost identical.

One thing I did notice, and I have no idea if this makes a difference or not, so feel free to mock my ignorance... the pressure lines used for the BOV and the EBC solenoid valve are smaller than the 9mm line going to the actuator. Its large enough to fit on the fittings, but its noticably narrower. Is this going to cause issues?

The wastegate is definitely functioning now, I played around with the car more on the road today and once I started making adjustments to the boost controller I could see more clearly. The boost comes on almost immediately now... if I'm at 4000 rpms and step on it, the boost goes from vacuum to 9 PSI almost instantly like I flipped a switch. I checked my logs and once I hit around 300 g/sec the car just chokes itself. I think the tune just needs to be leaned out a lot up top. I can't do a lot of tuning of the EBC until I can get to the higher rpms to see where its dropping off. Boost creep only really seems to happen if I just stand on the accelerator and leave it at high rpms in 5th/6th.

Hmmmmmm, I don't actually have the stock GReddy intercooler, I have the Godspeed (eBay) intercooler. It's definitely possible thats having a larger effect. The turbo outlet probably has a screw blocking that port because I found the copper fitting in the picture someone posted in a box this morning.

What do you think of the Godspeed Intercooler? I saw the one that was a 30x12x3 that I thought about getting. But I havent quite figured out at what point(power) the intercooler starts to choke.

What do you think of the Godspeed Intercooler? I saw the one that was a 30x12x3 that I thought about getting. But I havent quite figured out at what point(power) the intercooler starts to choke.

From another thread

The Greddy intercooler starts to become a restriction to flow at around 220g/s which is only about 5000rpm at 9spi . By the time you reach 320g/s (roughly 300whp)you have a pressure differential across the intercooler of around 4psi .
If running the stock Greddy turbo this intercooler is fine but anything bigger than that making over 300whp would benefit from a larger intercooler.
I have run mine up to 350g/s (333whp) and saw a pressure differential of 7psi .
]

I will be doing an analysis on this very shortly - already have the intercooler (30x12x3) and will measure before and after MAF and IATs .

From another thread


I will be doing an analysis on this very shortly - already have the intercooler (30x12x3) and will measure before and after MAF and IATs .

good deal Brettus, I would be interested in the results from your data.

/\ if my maf increases significantly without too much increase in IATs I'll head back to the dyno and try break 350whp and 300lbft .

/\ if my maf increases significantly without too much increase in IATs I'll head back to the dyno and try break 350whp and 300lbft .

:SHOCKED:

Those are beastly target numbers and would earn you a place in the Overboosted Hall of Fame for sure.

Here are a couple of pictures of the valve and the lines:

Here is the empty NC port:
147310

Here is the red line to the wastegate actuator connected to the COM port: (to make this line reach I had to turn the valve box around as the red line is very short)
147311

A top down view of the valve unit:
147312

The blow off valve line running back to the VFAD, with the other blue line coming from the NO port of the EBC solenoid valve:
147313

This is how you have it set up now, or this is how it was set up by PFS originally? You keep changing your description of your plumbing, I'm having a lot of trouble keeping track of what's going on now.

This is how you have it set up now, or this is how it was set up by PFS originally? You keep changing your description of your plumbing, I'm having a lot of trouble keeping track of what's going on now.

This is how I have it set up now, and the wastegate works fine now. No more overboosting, the car is driving 100x better. It still chokes on fuel above 300 g/sec but that is a tuning issue and not the turbo setup. In high gear (5th especially) if I just hold down on the accelerator I will eventually get boost creep and the boost will rise, but otherwise its fine.

Now that the w/g is working, I started tuning my boost controller without fear of the engine spontaneously exploding. With the start boost tweaked and moderate set values I get almost instant boost to 9 PSI by under 4k rpms. Once I get a new map from Jeff I will continue making adjustments to raise the boost to my target, and keep it until redline.

Once you get more aggressive with your start boost you will notice how fast the turbo spools. I'm getting 14psi by 3250rpm right now....16 by 3500....it's a little insane LOL

Once you get more aggressive with your start boost you will notice how fast the turbo spools. I'm getting 14psi by 3250rpm right now....16 by 3500....it's a little insane LOL

So when do you plan on getting that bad boy on the dyno at 16 psi?

Once you get more aggressive with your start boost you will notice how fast the turbo spools. I'm getting 14psi by 3250rpm right now....16 by 3500....it's a little insane LOL

Yeah, I tweaked it a bit more and boost comes on to 9ish PSI by 3500 rpms now, but I'm holding off on raising the boost until I get an updated tune from Jeff and I get my fuel pump installed. My target is 11 PSI.

Did you replace your transmission already? You upped your boost again from 14 lbs?? :scared:

Once you get more aggressive with your start boost you will notice how fast the turbo spools. I'm getting 14psi by 3250rpm right now....16 by 3500....it's a little insane LOL

Impressive .
I see 14psi at 3400 but have not been game to go higher .
Do you know what your P1 duty cycle is at around 3000rpm ?

Yeah, I tweaked it a bit more and boost comes on to 9ish PSI by 3500 rpms now, but I'm holding off on raising the boost until I get an updated tune from Jeff and I get my fuel pump installed. My target is 11 PSI.

Did you replace your transmission already? You upped your boost again from 14 lbs?? :scared:

that's fast spooling....it's good that you are figuring out....wait for the dyno..
steven

Hey guys i need a small sugestion here!
as my car is a 4 port it does not have a VFAD,so i managed to make a vacuum fitting for the pressure source to the solenoid in one pipe pre intercooler like the profec manual says,but where should i put my MAP sensor from the emanage,the boost controler's input and my boost gauge as the only vacuums i have left are on the LIM?
Should i put them there??i will be greatfull for any advice!!!

Hey guys i need a small sugestion here!
as my car is a 4 port it does not have a VFAD,so i managed to make a vacuum fitting for the pressure source to the solenoid in one pipe pre intercooler like the profec manual says,but where should i put my MAP sensor from the emanage,the boost controler's input and my boost gauge as the only vacuums i have left are on the LIM?
Should i put them there??i will be greatfull for any advice!!!

Seriously ..............................are you for real ?

I can't believe you are forging ahead with your plans after the advice you have been given on this forum already .

i have a emanage ultimate now:))))

and the car will be tuned,soooo,how about the vacuums??

You're missing The Kiwi's point. Please re-read the thread again. OR read Kane's Boost controller "How-To" thread.

Knowledge is power.


Yeah, post 2000, of course in a old threadsurection, to boot. I fail.