It was brought to my attention that the review thread I started in the Good/Bad Guy forum was misappropriately placed, since we/I am stating neither. This is the correct place to discuss, voice questions or concerns, and review Fluids AccessPORT tuning service.

Please keep this civil and leave out the underhanded comments. But do not hesitate to ask legitimate questions or post opinions concerning the service.

thanks paul for putting it in the correct forum.

no prob zoom, thanks for addresing me concering its misplacement :)

Competition is good, we need it in this niche community.

However after the Mazsport incident we also need honest vendors.

So now I guess we need to wait till someone actually has there car tuned so we can get some real feedback for this thread......;)

Paul thanks for posting this thread! I'm looking forward to the discussion and I welcome Fluid into the tuning market!

*sits in the back of the room and keeps his mouth shut for once* /subscribed

This will be interesting

Wow, this thread is full of fail as of right now...

Hopefully Fluid will post in here so this will actually become a discussion.

Why should they? They're being put on the defensive by people that will never need tuning from them anyway. I wouldn't if I were Fluid :dunno:

Why should they? They're being put on the defensive by people that will never need tuning from them anyway. I wouldn't if I were Fluid :dunno:
Chances are slim that I would use them but shit happens. I would like to know if they are legitimate players in the game.

Chances are slim that I would use them but shit happens. I would like to know if they are legitimate players in the game.

I'm sure it's at least partially legit. If Fluid screwed this up then people are just going to stop buying from him - and quickly.

I would love to have a service like he's offering but there's only so many rotary tuners out there and even fewer who know how to use the Cobb and have the software required.

If this is somebody using the pro-tuner software doesn't Cobb publish everyone with access to it? And you can't lock maps from RaceTuner, right? Fluid is saying they will be locked. I haven't looked at the thread in the vendors section since yesterday morning but he still hasn't described the actual tuning process either, right? IE. base maps, calibration, number of tunes, expiration of subscription, etc.

It shouldn't be that difficult to find out who he will have doing the tuning. Brice made it clear he's not doing it himself.

I haven't looked at the thread in the vendors section since yesterday morning but he still hasn't described the actual tuning process either, right? IE. base maps, calibration, number of tunes, expiration of subscription, etc. He did say there would be base maps in the thread he deleted.

Here's a list of authorized RX8 e-tuners in Florida from Cobb:

Horsepower Logic/Limitless Performance AccessTUNER
583 105th Ave North
Unit #6
Royal Palm Beach, FL 33411
(561) 842-8333 Phone
(561) 793-5092 Fax
www.horsepowerlogic.com

Ramini Sports AccessTUNER
10000 NW 71 Place
Tamarac, FL 33321
(954) 226-1125 Phone

Here's the ones in Georgia:

Batlground Engineering AccessTUNER
1770 Atlanta Rd.
Smyrna, GA 30080
(770) 319-9605 Phone

Forged Performance
Nissan GT-R Tuner AccessTUNER/Dealer
498 Cobb Parkway South
Marietta, GA 30060
(770) 792-0202 Phone
www.forgedperformance.com


Subaru of Gwinnett AccessTUNER
2920 Satellite Blvd
Duluth, GA 30096
(678) 584-7251 Phone
www.sogperformance.com

Topspeed AccessTUNER/Dealer
2130 Brandon Trail
Alpharetta, GA 30004
(866) 947-7333 Phone
(678) 297-7779 Fax

www.topspeedsales.com

He did say there would be base maps in the thread he deleted.

Didn't realize he deleted it.

Well in the new one he says he's working with Cobb. Since we know Cobb stops in occasionally it's not gonna be hard to check on it.

Why should they? They're being put on the defensive by people that will never need tuning from them anyway. I wouldn't if I were Fluid :dunno:

Actually he was put on the defensive by people asking legitimate questions about a service they were actually interested in... this is just the fallout from that. If those of us who actually were considering the service got any answers this wouldn't have been an issue. Although I find it pretty telling that several people have started screaming "help help I'm being oppressed" as soon as Fluid started getting pressure to answer some questions that are honestly ridiculously basic like "Does the guy you have tuning know how to tune the goddamn car?"

Although I find it pretty telling that several people have started screaming "help help I'm being oppressed" as soon as Fluid started getting pressure to answer some questions that are honestly ridiculously basic like "Does the guy you have tuning know how to tune the goddamn car?"

we have seen this before............

The more tuners we have that know how to tune the Rx-8 with the AP, it's a win-win.
Where is that popcorn bucket?

Brice needs to stop deleting threads.

^^ i agree, and anyway paying 700$ for the ap + 200$ for having an undisclosed tuner tune your car when you can have an access port for 700$ tuned by mazdamaniac is not even a deal to consider.

we have seen this before............

The more tuners we have that know how to tune the Rx-8 with the AP, it's a win-win.
Where is that popcorn bucket?

Dave is right in that the community as a whole can only benefit from having choices when it comes to services. MazdaManianc has had a lot of satisfied customers through his tuning process whether it be via email or even at dyno day events.

What is on display here is the old days of "Trust me" being accepted from vendors are gone. Vendors here on RX8 club can no longer get by with products and services without providing information that people want.

I think the questions being asked are fair and if I, myself, was to offer the same service I would expect inquiries like this.

So far, the list of questions seems to be:

1. What background/experience does the tuner(s) have with the RENESIS?
2. Will base calibrations be offered for data logging purposes?
3. What kinds of features can we expect with calibrations? (Fan speed, Oil metering etc.)
4. Aside from the 48 hour turn around, does the $295 cover a finished tune or is there a time limit? What costs are needed if changes are required or a copy of the tune is needed?

I would be thinking more long term than anything else. Getting a tune won't be an issue but down the road if you go turbo/nitrous/supercharged or do anything which might effect your air/fuel ratio you'll need a new tune.

Some people would pay extra money to expedite things.

If you just installed a new FI kit and Jeff is backed up a bit and it'll take a week or 2 before he gets to your car, well you have a timebomb in your driveway until it gets tuned.

A 48 hour service is great for those who'd rather not wait. Time itself has value.

^^ i agree, and anyway paying 700$ for the ap + 200$ for having an undisclosed tuner tune your car when you can have an access port for 700$ tuned by mazdamaniac is not even a deal to consider.

Absolutely. But the $300 service for people who do not have tunes with MM or who already had their script with MM expire is what he charges as well. If there is anything at all to the claims of faster turnaround and new tuning options (which is kinda hard to believe but anythings possible) then why wouldn't you consider it IF you knew what kind of quality to expect?

The last part is obviously the sticking point. Also if there are a set number of tunes, if this is a subscription service, or if you only get one tune. One locked tune for $300 is insane unless it's the head tuner for Mazda sitting over in Japan doing the work. :)

Deleting threads or comments you don't like about your products, services or business is not good.

Implies you are unethical.

Perception can kill your business right away.

Deleting threads or comments you don't like about your products, services or business is not good.

Implies you are unethical.

Perception can kill your business right away.

No it doesn't. It implies that he's overly sensitive about people posting in his forum with an agenda in an attempt to reduce his business.

And the hundreds (thousands) of transactions that they've done so far with few complaints from actual customers implies that he is a good vendor.

But that's what good guy/bad guy forums are for so try to leave it over there. I doubt anybody's reading this thread who didn't follow the GG/BG thread a bit back. And hopefully everyone understands that just because you're a good vendor doesn't mean you're a good tuner.

And I'm sure if he starts to act like bad vendors around here it'll be brought to the forefront of the forum immediately and amplified 3x due to the reasons some people have for not dealing with him.

if you have a store and someone is being unruly or obnoxius in your store and its disrupting your customers and taking time away from them and you get rid of that person- does that imply you are unethical?


we should just move this to the lounge and let it be debated endlessly there. and then leave this for actual info and questions directly about the tuning service

if you have a store and someone is being unruly or obnoxius in your store and its disrupting your customers and taking time away from them and you get rid of that person- does that imply you are unethical?
I deal with customers who are unruly and obnoxious ALL the time. They are clients who have millions of dollars invested with me and is it disrupting to my day to have to "deal with them" YES. Is it a necessary evil to what I do, YES. Closing a sale is only the beginning. Informing your customers, listening to their questions and needs, is even more important if you want customer loyalty, repeat business, and referrals.
This is no different then what Fluid Motorsports is going through now. Some customers in his 'store' are wandering aimlessly down the aisles looking for things to buy and others are walking in with questions in mind before they break out the VISA card to buy something.


As for moving this to the lounge, I think that would be a shame. Since when did healthy discussion on a forum become a bad thing?

Everyone is acting this guy and he didn't even do anything! Anyone loss money?! Anyone have an engine explode on them?! The product doesn't even 'exist' yet.

I swear this place is full of middle school kids.

Everyone is acting this guy and he didn't even do anything! Anyone loss money?! Anyone have an engine explode on them?! The product doesn't even 'exist' yet.

I swear this place is full of middle school kids.

Would you wait for the first customer to be unsatisfied? would like to be that first customer? Asking who we're going to trust is legit in my opinion, especially because we're not asking him to inflate our tyres but we're putting thousand of dollars in his hands.
Why should the fist customer blindly trust the tuner? saying who he is could really help them to decide where go, especially when other tuners do that for less while buying a new unit.

This is not midschool chat, is a clear request of some informations that will eventually boost his sales if given properly.

Would you wait for the first customer to be unsatisfied? would like to be that first customer? Asking who we're going to trust is legit in my opinion, especially because we're not asking him to inflate our tyres but we're putting thousand of dollars in his hands.
Why should the first customer blindly trust the tuner? saying who he is could really help them to decide where go, especially when other tuners do that for less while buying a new unit.

This is not midschool chat, is a clear request of some informations that will eventually boost his sales if given properly.

The name doesn't matter, and obviously it isn't going to be a tuner 101 grad. This forum (well certain members) have continiously looked for whatever imperfection whatsoever with Fluid (and every other freakin forum vendor), if they aren't completely flawless (which is impossible) the pinchforks and torches arise and the burning begins.

The name has nothing to do with it, people are just using it as an excuse. If you do not want to trust him with your tune then go somewhere else, no one is forcing you.

This is the same cycle repeating over again and I am not the only person here who is utterly sick of it.

What if i were undecided between 2 or more options? wouldn't i want to at least ask details?
Brice went from being a common user to a vendor, he should follow the customer's questions and advices so to improve his service.
Here, in fact, we're not talking about selling a sway bar or an exhaust. Anybody can do it. He's offering a service that needs to be defined and he could really find new customers by being a bit more specific.
This thread is a serious help for him if it stays civil and if he shows to be well aware of what this service will be.

What if i were undecided between 2 or more options? wouldn't i want to at least ask details?
.

There is a difference between asking details, and lowering the flood gates.

(not intended towards you bse50)

I agree on that and i've been harsh in the past too towards him.
The fact is that any new vendor should plant solid roots and are threads like this that could really show how deep the roots are.
Now i will shut up untill i see fluid posting something here because all we're doing at this point is speculation.
Once we have some questions answered we will be able to ask something more or go straight to his shop ;)

we should just move this to the lounge and let it be debated endlessly there. and then leave this for actual info and questions directly about the tuning service

Thank you!!!

This is ridicilous. Again as Brice stated himself. The original & only motive for the post in his own vendor section was to "GAUGE INTEREST" on a particular service. Nothing has been set in stone as of yet because everything is still in preliminary stages. He then reassured that when everything is "STRUCTURED, APPROVED, & SEALED", he will then proceed to release out details. Sounds like the basic of a good business to me.

If I was him I wouldn't have even bother saying anything until all was official. As this always happens on this forum. a Pioneer comes along w/good intentions of raising the bar on the 8 and here comes the Drones & angry mob. Prime examples; Esmeril (ignition upgrade & breaking 400whp) & SFR(First release of their kit).

if you have a store and someone is being unruly or obnoxius in your store and its disrupting your customers and taking time away from them and you get rid of that person- does that imply you are unethical?

Bah...how dare you attempt to bring common sense into this discussion.

has been set in stone as of yet because everything is still in preliminary stages. He then reassured that when everything is "STRUCTURED, APPROVED, & SEALED", he will then proceed to release out details. Sounds like the basic of a good business to me.

It's actually already announced and available. See: http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=168236

oh....Well in that case why doesn't someone(specifically those inquisitive individuals who are in such disbelief) just call him and inquire about the tuning service.

Still though, as he stated he will soon post e-info on the service.

It's actually already announced and available. See: http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=168236

I'm sure Brice will post more details once he has them. If he doesn't then nobody will buy from him.

It's not like there's a giant community of Cobb AP owners on this site who don't have tunes. There's like 4 of us. :)

As for moving this to the lounge, I think that would be a shame. Since when did healthy discussion on a forum become a bad thing?


i just mean the debate over the "hiding stuff from us" issue versus a thread that actually has info about the tuning. just separating the 2 topics into 2 threads

Here's a list of authorized RX8 e-tuners in Florida from Cobb:


This is not a comprehensive list.
It only applies to those dealers that take an active part in soliciting for business through Cobb.
For instance, I am not listed in their Arizona dealer listing, even though I am responsible for nearly 95% of Cobb's RX-8 sales (Maybe more - there are some serial numbers that are unaccounted for).

I know ALL of the people in Florida that have a Cobb AccessTUNER HASP key.
Of course, Bryce could be using ANYBODY that has a HASP to do his tuning, even if they are not in FL.

That said, the first calibration that goes out Fluid's door will give up all the info you want to know, since the vendor code will be embedded in the file.


If you just installed a new FI kit and Jeff is backed up a bit and it'll take a week or 2 before he gets to your car, well you have a timebomb in your driveway until it gets tuned.

Nope. The MM base calibrations are totally safe for operating the car, even FI.
In fact, about 1/3 of the time, the base calibration ends up being within 5% of the final tune with regards to fueling.

This is not a comprehensive list.
It only applies to those dealers that take an active part in soliciting for business through Cobb.
For instance, I am not listed in their Arizona dealer listing, even though I am responsible for nearly 95% of Cobb's RX-8 sales (Maybe more - there are some serial numbers that are unaccounted for).

I know ALL of the people in Florida that have a Cobb AccessTUNER HASP key.
Of course, Bryce could be using ANYBODY that has a HASP to do his tuning, even if they are not in FL.

That said, the first calibration that goes out Fluid's door will give up all the info you want to know, since the vendor code will be embedded in the file.



Nope. The MM base calibrations are totally safe for operating the car, even FI.
In fact, about 1/3 of the time, the base calibration ends up being within 5% of the final tune with regards to fueling.

Just out of curiosity, how far away do the base calibrations end up being on the opposite side of the spectrum (the worst 1/3 of the time), and just on average?

Just out of curiosity, how far away do the base calibrations end up being on the opposite side of the spectrum (the worst 1/3 of the time), and just on average?

On "average", they are usually too rich under load (10:1) and too rich at cruise (12.5:1)
The "worst" case scenario has been a mixed bag of cars that won't idle satisfactorily (bad MAF calibration caused by a custom or non-standard intake), run so rich that they misfire (usually an injector calibration issue or MAF issues) or occasionally are too lean in boost (above 12.3:1).
In the latter case, there is already a caveat in the instructions about going into boost on the v4.0.0 calibration.
You will only grenade your car if you are an idiot.

Basically, if you follow the directions exactly and have a proper MAF setup, the base calibration is going to produce a pretty stable and totally safe vehicle.
The base calibrations have come a long way in the last few months.

Ahh, that's right. I forgot you have 2 seperate base tunes. One for NA and one for FI.

I haven't followed the accessport in some time as I'm not ready to purchase. Although I could use one right now for diagnostic purposes.

felt the need to say this again on the locked tuning front- not meant at a shot at Jeff specifically and he knows we disagree on this point and these tunes through Fluid will be locked as well.

I HATE the idea of a tune in my car that is locked . Thats the whole point of getting tuning capability in the first place because the OEM has essentially locked you out of tuning your car. The tuners will say its like software code etc etc blah blah blah. For me its a guy taking a wrench to my car and then locking my hood. If i decided maybe i want someone else to tune my car i have to go back to "stock" and start from scratch. its just ridiculous.

It should be open period. I pay guy A for the service of tuning my car. Sometime later i think "maybe it could run a little better/stronger" So i go to guy B and he says"well your timing is X and you have Y jets in your carb lets take the timing to X-2"

With a locked tune guy B cant do that- he has to start from scratch. its just wrong.

Jeff and all the other Accessport tuners do a great job and its allot of work. I just wont ever buy a tune from them on that grounds. No matter if i know them and respect their ability (Jeff, Steve) nor if the tuner wants to be the Stig(Fluids contractor)

The locking issue is a sticky one.
I would love to leave them unlocked.
Unfortunately, what has been historically proven (more than once), is that an unlocked tune gets stolen, utilized by a different vendor and sold as bespoke.

Look at it this way - Mazda "locked" their tune. If you don't like it, you are more than welcome to take your car to someone else to do the tuning. That would be any of those that offer this kind of service.
If you are inclined to change it yourself or have someone else do it, they are, in turn able to do whatever they want to do.
Really, if guy "B" in your example was worth his salt, he wouldn't care what guy "A" did - he would want to start from scratch after observing your car's behavior.

What you are looking for is to find someone to do the really hard part (getting it within 95%) for FREE and then pay someone else (or do it yourself) to make it work for your application.
That is like saying your favorite artist should release their music and give away their CD for free so that you can make it suit your purposes for no charge.
Or, alternately, you are willing to pay for the CD once, but then manipulate the EQ, balance, etc and then give that away to anyone else that doesn't want to share in your initial purchase.
In the end, the individual who took the initial risk doesn't get rewarded.

Once of the things I do to ameliorate this "conflict" is to give away the tunes at no charge as a reward for buying the AccessPORT from me.
Even Fluid isn't offering that.
People are quick to forget that when they are complaining that I don't work fast enough.
What do you want for nothing?

^^^I partially agree with you Zoom

I think that they cannot open those maps up that easily because then they will run out of customers maybe. If seen from the standpoint of a software developer you will see it is like them locking the source code in a way.

But I do belive that if I pay a bit extra I should be able to get an unlocked map so that I can see what has changed in my car and be able to do MINOR tweaks in a dyno since Jeff is so far away from me. Right now I trust Jeff 100% with the task of tuning my car but being he is so far away I would like to help him out with minor stuff I could learn. There are ZERO tuners in Puerto Rico that tune AP's that will tune my car.

The locking issue is a sticky one.
I would love to leave them unlocked.
Unfortunately, what has been historically proven (more than once), is that an unlocked tune gets stolen, utilized by a different vendor and sold as bespoke.

Look at it this way - Mazda "locked" their tune. If you don't like it, you are more than welcome to take your car to someone else to do the tuning. That would be any of those that offer this kind of service.
If you are inclined to change it yourself or have someone else do it, they are, in turn able to do whatever they want to do.

What you are looking for is to find someone to do the really hard part (getting it within 95%) for FREE and then pay someone else (or do it yourself) to make it work for your application.
That is like saying your favorite artist should release their music and give away their CD for free so that you can make it suit your purposes for no charge.
Or, alternately, you are willing to pay for the CD once, but then manipulate the EQ, balance, etc and then give that away to anyone else that doesn't want to share in your initial purchase.
In the end, the individual who took the initial risk doesn't get rewarded.

Also agree with this. It could make people steal the tune.

I think this is more a moral thing but since not everyone has their morals correctly placed then this could happen and most probably will happen if the maps get unlocked to everyone.

But still I wish I could learn to tune it myself. Hell i'd pay to learn to tune it myself.

It was amazing to me how quickly my initial calibrations got stolen.
Within the first few weeks of sending out AccessPORTs, I was getting calibrations from the field that were mine (they even still contained my copyright notice!) being sold by other vendors.

I wouldn't call it a "moral" dilemma. Its just survival.

You all know my opinion on this so I won't retype it.

I understand your concern Jeff; but that is why they make legal protections against copyright violations.

And you don't give away your tunes - nor should you; but are you providing a product or a service? The distinction is key.

It was amazing to me how quickly my initial calibrations got stolen.
Within the first few weeks of sending out AccessPORTs, I was getting calibrations from the field that were mine (they even still contained my copyright notice!) being sold by other vendors.

I wouldn't call it a "moral" dilemma. Its just survival.

Its sad that people steal other person's work. It is survival but people doing it is showing the bad morals they have.

I did not know this had happened to you and I am very sorry to hear it.

Its sad that when things like this happens all of us get hurt by it, but thats how it always works.

Still my offer stands. I would pay to learn how to tune, and not to get business from any of you since I already have enough work on my hands but just to be able to tweak my own car.

The locking issue is a sticky one.
I would love to leave them unlocked.
Unfortunately, what has been historically proven (more than once), is that an unlocked tune gets stolen, utilized by a different vendor and sold as bespoke.


Really, if guy "B" in your example was worth his salt, he wouldn't care what guy "A" did - he would want to start from scratch after observing your car's behavior.


well that im sure happened countless times before electronic timing and fuel control. as for someone always starting from scratch- nah. they look what the timing is and then decide how it could be changed. one guy tunes a car and the owner moves and takes it to a second guy who sees how the car is set up, likes what he sees and sets up customer 2,3,4 and 5 that way



Or, alternately, you are willing to pay for the CD once, but then manipulate the EQ, balance, etc and then give that away to anyone else that doesn't want to share in your initial purchase.
In the end, the individual who took the initial risk doesn't get rewarded.


actually with first sale law i can remix it and GIVE it away since ive purchased the CD. so maybe thats a discussion point- am i buying the "tune" so i have first sale rights over it or am i buying your service of providing a tune that you have not sold to me.

i prefer buying the tune so its mine


Once of the things I do to ameliorate this "conflict" is to give away the tunes at no charge as a reward for buying the AccessPORT from me.
Even Fluid isn't offering that.
People are quick to forget that when they are complaining that I don't work fast enough.


i hear ya. people suck;)

It was amazing to me how quickly my initial calibrations got stolen.
Within the first few weeks of sending out AccessPORTs, I was getting calibrations from the field that were mine (they even still contained my copyright notice!) being sold by other vendors.

I wouldn't call it a "moral" dilemma. Its just survival.

As much as I would love unlocked tunes, I don't blame any of the tune vendors for locking them. The fact is that tunes were already being stolen and re-sold, locking them gives some level of protection. Getting in constant legal battles over the tunes is absolutely not worth the money for a tuner. If Jeff had unlocked tunes and someone did a data dump and then "re-made the tune" using the software basically copy pasting the settings it would be damn near impossible to prove they had stolen them, especially if one or two items were "tweaked" slightly to appear different. This happens with software code ALL the time. Given the opportunity people steal stuff. It isn't a moral dilema any more than software keys are for a software company.

Also for the posters going on about people "ganging up" on Fluid are ridiculous. Most of the comments made in the previous thread were asking legitimate questions about a service we were interested in. In my case I gave some advice on what I think would actually make the service really work well. I've given the same advice to Jeff and god knows I have torn Jeff a new asshole over issues with his service at times. I don't give a rats ass about the politics between the vendors on here, but Fluids lack of transparency is not to his credit and won't win him customers. I hope he does get the service working and well, because the more good vendors and options available for our little niche the better. For that to happen though he has a lot of steps to take.

It does muddy the waters though when there are other vendors on the forum that are participating in the questions about Fluids service. It would help matters if the conversation included more people who don't have that conflict of interest.

I understand your concern Jeff; but that is why they make legal protections against copyright violations.

And we all see how well that works. :icon_no2:

And you don't give away your tunes - nor should you; but are you providing a product or a service? The distinction is key.

But I do give them away.
I sell the AP for the required retail price and nothing more.
The calibration service comes with the device at no extra charge.
And, it is a service that produces a product.
Think of it as commissioned music.
If someone commissions me to write a soundtrack for their movie, who do you think owns that work when I'm done?
I do.
One has to specifically give away their rights to the composition through "work for hire" rules, which I refuse to do.
That is how so many artists over the years got ripped off by record labels, producers, management, etc.

I retain the rights to my work and you are licensed to use it by me.

If you don't like it, go elsewhere. Its that simple.
I maintain that my level of competency places me in such a position that my work is worth more than that of the competition, and this is one of the ways in which I maintain it value.

well that im sure happened countless times before electronic timing and fuel control. as for someone always starting from scratch- nah. they look what the timing is and then decide how it could be changed. one guy tunes a car and the owner moves and takes it to a second guy who sees how the car is set up, likes what he sees and sets up customer 2,3,4 and 5 that way

Not how I do it, nor is it how the pros do it.
They will evaluate how the vehicle is performing based on how it comes in, tune and all, but they will "zero" everything, install their preferred "tweaks" and start from scratch.
Its part regimen and part ego.

actually with first sale law i can remix it and GIVE it away since ive purchased the CD. so maybe thats a discussion point- am i buying the "tune" so i have first sale rights over it or am i buying your service of providing a tune that you have not sold to me.

But then you are REQUIRED to cease and desist from using it yourself after "giving it away".
You are no longer entitled to use that intellectual property.

When you buy a CD, you aren't buying the music on it.
You are only buying the physical disk.
You are purchasing a license to the music contained on it.
You have no rights or claim to the music itself, in either its effect (the sound) or its content (the actual composition).

My calibrations are protected in both effect (resultant engine behavior) and content (the actual values in the tables).

thats what i dont agree with - the whole comparison to music and intellectual property. you're changing the way my car works- i want to know what those changes are and what they do. I dont even like Mazda's flashes not coming with a description of what they have changed. I went so far as to get the AG of Oregon to say so It is not so different from taking a wrench in hand during service and
going by a manual that has changed specifications. If the consumer asks
"What is entailed in my 30,000 mile service? I want to know what you are
going to do," then the dealer ought to tell them what they are going to
do. The question is how detailed to you want them to get. You are a
well informed car owner and know how to ask questions that should get
you the depth of response that you need. If I, as a less well informed
consumer don't ask the right questions and end up by being damaged, I
don't think it makes any difference if that damage was caused by a
wrench or a flash.

and you're right that's the way you do it- i was pointing out the locked nature of the tunes from fluid and expressing that as long as the tunes from fluid are locked i wont be buying them no matter who the tuner is;)

I sell the AP for the required retail price and nothing more.


Do you purchase the AP for the same price as you sell it for? Or do you receive a discount for buying large amounts of them?

I would imagine he buys it for less. Why sell them without making a few bucks in the process. Although it's my understanding that the price he sells themf or is the lowest price allowed by Cobb.
What are you getting at Dills?

If you just installed a new FI kit and Jeff is backed up a bit and it'll take a week or 2 before he gets to your car, well you have a timebomb in your driveway until it gets tuned.

A 48 hour service is great for those who'd rather not wait. Time itself has value.

I think I'd rather wait 2 weeks and get a map from someone I know have a lot of insight about our cars than get one after 48 hours from some mystery man.

The secrecy/deleting threads/lack of details make me think Fluid just look to release as much products as possible and earn a lot of money. He's got great customer feedback, why keep shooting himself in the foot. People are concerned about their cars when it comes to alterations to their "brain", is that so odd?

Also, the way of advertising 48 hours is a pretty obvious play on people's complaining about turnaround time for MM. I guess that's somewhat deserved (though it's not my experience). Let's just see if they can uphold the 48 hours when they start to handle customers who can't follow simple instructions :)

Providing the service for "free" and making your profit on the AP itself is a nice way to avoid taxes. +1 for not letting Uncle Sam get you down.

Using the Music as an example - while you have copyright over the material and the creativity; the information is open; anyone can determine what notes are in what order and play the song at their home. It is not until they seek to make income from that combination of sounds that they must get permission / liscense the work from the composer.

We are merely arguing the same point about tuning - I don't want to copy your tune and then try to sell it; I want to know what the notes are.

While the source code (the HOW) has been ruled to be protected material; the data (output and results; the WHAT) of the code is not. If I am asked to consult on an ERP development project; the client has the right to a full functional disclosure. As well as typically unlimited use liscense to the finished product (and for an extra fee the source itself); while I also retain the right to modify my developments and resell the same product again and again.

Ultimately you are right; it is a free country so people can stipulate (to an exent) how they choose to do business; and everyone can vote with their wallet... but it doesn't change the fact that your only "competitive advantage" is reputation; there has been no peer review and any innovations made are not going to better the community. While 90+% are buying the service for the convienience and therefore would contnue to utilize your service even if you published every tune you have made; you are opening yourself up to (in this case Fluid) competing with you on your timelines; customer service, etc... you will both not be in a position to compete on the scientific points made; because you are both saying "it is cool; trust me".

What are you getting at Dills?

I was wondering because MM said he gives away his personal AP maps for free. I assumed that wasn't the case because of the amount that he sells that he could definitely make a profit through buying them in bulk from Cobb.



Also before anyone decides to throw me under the bus for even questioning it (which is what I think you were getting at Jedi), I would do the same if I was in his shoes.

I think I'd rather wait 2 weeks and get a map from someone I know have a lot of insight about our cars than get one after 48 hours from some mystery man.

The secrecy/deleting threads/lack of details make me think Fluid just look to release as much products as possible and earn a lot of money. He's got great customer feedback, why keep shooting himself in the foot. People are concerned about their cars when it comes to alterations to their "brain", is that so odd?

Also, the way of advertising 48 hours is a pretty obvious play on people's complaining about turnaround time for MM. I guess that's somewhat deserved (though it's not my experience). Let's just see if they can uphold the 48 hours when they start to handle customers who can't follow simple instructions :)

Completely agree. Right now I only trust Jeff with my tuning. And I dont see that changing in the forseeable future.

The secrecy/deleting threads/lack of details make me think Fluid just look to release as much products as possible and earn a lot of money. He's got great customer feedback, why keep shooting himself in the foot.

He has "great customer feedback" because 1) he deletes any thread that he can that has negative feedback and 2) he has very quick and good service most of the time, if there are no issues or problems. The truth is, most people are only going to give who they buy parts from a quick look, and most will completely miss the sketchy patterns that have been described.

ive dealt this fluid and they seemed really upfront and helpful =]

im gonna have to keep track of this thread

It does muddy the waters though when there are other vendors on the forum that are participating in the questions about Fluids service. It would help matters if the conversation included more people who don't have that conflict of interest.

This may or may not be aimed at myself but I'd like the opportunity to clarify my position on all this. I don't have any stake whether with my involvement in BHR or MazdaManiac in the tuning situation so there is no conflict of interest. I don't stand to profit one way or another.

That being said, there's no rules against any vendor inquiring about another vendors product or service. It's only been with the introduction of new rules here on RX8 club that posing questions about products has become difficult because it would require opening a new thread just as Paul did.

Either way, I feel it's my job to ask the hard questions. I've not posed any questions which are out of the ordinary. In the end, the answers will benefit the whole community.

MazdaManiac's process of tuning has been clearly documented as I was the one who wrote it. All anyone is asking for is the same kind of information.

There's no rule that says any vendor has to release any information about their products or services. There are, however, consequences for that as well.

Providing the service for "free" and making your profit on the AP itself is a nice way to avoid taxes. +1 for not letting Uncle Sam get you down.

Using the Music as an example - while you have copyright over the material and the creativity; the information is open; anyone can determine what notes are in what order and play the song at their home. It is not until they seek to make income from that combination of sounds that they must get permission / liscense the work from the composer.

We are merely arguing the same point about tuning - I don't want to copy your tune and then try to sell it; I want to know what the notes are.

While the source code (the HOW) has been ruled to be protected material; the data (output and results; the WHAT) of the code is not. If I am asked to consult on an ERP development project; the client has the right to a full functional disclosure. As well as typically unlimited use liscense to the finished product (and for an extra fee the source itself); while I also retain the right to modify my developments and resell the same product again and again.

Ultimately you are right; it is a free country so people can stipulate (to an exent) how they choose to do business; and everyone can vote with their wallet... but it doesn't change the fact that your only "competitive advantage" is reputation; there has been no peer review and any innovations made are not going to better the community. While 90+% are buying the service for the convienience and therefore would contnue to utilize your service even if you published every tune you have made; you are opening yourself up to (in this case Fluid) competing with you on your timelines; customer service, etc... you will both not be in a position to compete on the scientific points made; because you are both saying "it is cool; trust me".


First, I think Jeff relates the tunes to musical terms because he has experience in that area and there is some overlap in protecting yourself with both types of intellectual property. I view it more like software (as a software engineer it makes sense to me).

If I write a software program that calculates banking numbers and sell it and someone else comes along and makes a program that provides the same numbers, its competition. If they took a copy of my source code and altered the comments and then sold it, its theft. With the tunes there is almost no way to prove a particular person stole the numbers from Jeff if he openly publishes his tunes. There is no legal protection over those numerical values, and you have almost zero chance of proving they got those numbers from his work. If they make a tiny modification to those numbers and resell the product they can make money without doing any work whatsoever and he cannot stop them.

Also I strongly disagree in the comparison between Fluids lack of disclosure and MMs. Jeff is saying, "I won't give the product to you, but I will be the one providing the service, this is my skill level, and here are a dozen places you can read up on the quality of my tunes and what people say about me as a tuner." He is asking you only to trust his abilities as far as his known reputation. He also specifies how many tunes you get and the timeline associated with those tunes and has a documented way to log the data, submit it, and get the data and tunes back and forth. A lot of people are willing to take that leap.

Fluid is saying, "I won't tell you who is doing the tune, what his experience is, how I'm going to handle customer support, how many tunes you are going to get or the timeline you can make changes to them, or who you should talk to if the tune blows your motor AND I'm not going to give you the product." That isn't a leap, thats insane.