Ok, let's jump ahead to next year's Nationals. Assume several RX-8's are running, and some of them have gotten themselves into trophy positions. Another competitor, who finds himself just out of the trophies, has heard of the various non-factory ECU reflashes and piggyback ECU modules that are available, and suspects that at least some of the 8's ahead of him have such things fitted.

Assuming he decided to protest them, how would he prove his point? If an OBDII tool would identify such a thing, is hooking one up to a competitor's car in impound allowed, or would he have to put down his protest fee just on a hunch and risk being thought of as a sore loser?

Originally posted by eccles
Assuming he decided to protest them, how would he prove his point? If an OBDII tool would identify such a thing, is hooking one up to a competitor's car in impound allowed, or would he have to put down his protest fee just on a hunch and risk being thought of as a sore loser?

This came up a few years ago at Nationals. They tried to regulate any ECU changes by looking at the manufacturer supplied cheksum for the loaded software. As a test, they took several cars (with permission) and found that NONE of them matched! After checking with the manufacturer, what they found was that, due to CONSTANT updates to the programs, the checksums constantly varied from the "supplied" checksum, as THAT number was only a snapshot in time of the production life of the code. They gave up, and said it could not be regulated without hugely expensive equipment that they were not prepared to buy, and with the equipment they had it could not be detected with certainty.

To specifically answer the questions, only trophied cars (to a certain placing) can be checked at impound, and then only by event officials AND a notification at the start of the event that a certain number of cars will be checked. A competitor is NOT allowed to touch any part of another competitors car, EVER, so he would have to lodge his protest money (and the bond money), and take his chances.

If it was only ECU, my money says he gets away with it..........

That reminds me of what happened with traction control in Formula One. When it was forbidden, there were accusations of cheating that couldn't be proven or disproven because the FIA couldn't be certain what the software was doing. So they gave up trying to figure it out and let the teams use traction control.

If the FIA doesn't have the wherewithal to regulate ECUs, who does?

You would think that if it was an ECU flash that is not associated with any piece of new hardware, that it would be considered timing or tuning the stock hardware, and be allowed.

That's exactly the sort of modification that is not allowed. Solo II Rule 13.9.D specifically statesNo changes are permitted to electronic engine management systems or their programming.But as other folks have said, unless the modification uses a piggyback ECU or something else that can be physically detected, it's unlikely to be protestable. Which implies that some sort of ECU reflash is going to become de rigeur for anyone wanting to be nationally competitive in an RX-8. :(

Originally posted by eccles
That's exactly the sort of modification that is not allowed. Solo II Rule 13.9.D specifically statesBut as other folks have said, unless the modification uses a piggyback ECU or something else that can be physically detected, it's unlikely to be protestable. Which implies that some sort of ECU reflash is going to become de rigeur for anyone wanting to be nationally competitive in an RX-8. :(


:D :D :D :D

Here is my idea of how you could detect any performance enhancements out of an ECU:

1) You get a good logger that can read and record the OBD codes and sensors.

2) You run it on a "control" vehicle.

3) You run it on the "suspected" vehicle.

This would have to be tested first to see how much variation there could be, but I think that factory maps for ignition and timing can only move a certain amount. For example, there is an ignition advance ceiling and anything above that would have to be due to a reflash.

This is what the WRX guys were planning on doing to each other to verify that, not only the peak boost was stock, but also the boost curve.

Hey, you could have a Mazda dealer guy flash ALL ECU's at an event prior to the event. That way everyone has the same program.
:)

Honestly, there are competative RX-8's in BS already, without ECU flashes. I wouldn't worry about it one way or the other. If it were me, I'd run in the Super Stock category. More mods are allowed. ;) (Note: thats Western Canadian Motorsports Association rules, I don't know the SCCA rules)

Originally posted by Chuck Clifford
You would think that if it was an ECU flash that is not associated with any piece of new hardware, that it would be considered timing or tuning the stock hardware, and be allowed.

Considering there are people getting 50+ hp from reflashes on various cars, do you still think it should be allowed in a stock class?

From reading the WRX and Evo forums, I don't think that any of these cars are running without some sort of ECU reflash. Are they all detected? Are they all declared? It appears that the winner in the WRX and Evo (and many other Electronically tuned cars, eventually RX-8) industries, are the aftermarket people. If its illegal, than everybody is cheating in one way or another. I for one am not going to get caught up in it. It eventually gets to the point that the initial toy is 30,000 and all the add ons are 20,000 more.

My whole point was I did not think software alone should be illegal, since there are no standard methods to detect it, and some people don't even know what revision they are driving, and you are only getting the most out of your stock hardware with it.

RX-8 owners have gone in for their first oil change and had reflashes accomplished while they were there. Some companies pay millions of dollars a year for software configuration control. No weekend sport (drag strip, autox) is going to get a handle on it, and still keep the cost and hassles affordable.

I think the RX-8 is quite adequate stock for my purposes. If Mazda slips an ECU burn in during one of my free servicings, than I'll get an update, but keeping up with the Jones'es aint my bag.

ok, on a WRX, EVO, STI you are dealing with turbo cars... ECU flashes usually alter the boost levels which is how they are able to make an additional 40-60HP. I've personally never seen a NA car with an ECU flash pick up more than 5-10HP without severe modifications...

IMHO worry about driving your best and leave the cheaters alone... If they can only win by giving themselaves 10 more HP it speaks wonders of your driving skills compared to theirs...:cool:

Originally posted by Chuck Clifford
From reading the WRX and Evo forums, I don't think that any of these cars are running without some sort of ECU reflash. Are they all detected? Are they all declared? It appears that the winner in the WRX and Evo (and many other Electronically tuned cars, eventually RX-8) industries, are the aftermarket people. If its illegal, than everybody is cheating in one way or another. I for one am not going to get caught up in it. It eventually gets to the point that the initial toy is 30,000 and all the add ons are 20,000 more.

My whole point was I did not think software alone should be illegal, since there are no standard methods to detect it, and some people don't even know what revision they are driving, and you are only getting the most out of your stock hardware with it.

RX-8 owners have gone in for their first oil change and had reflashes accomplished while they were there. Some companies pay millions of dollars a year for software configuration control. No weekend sport (drag strip, autox) is going to get a handle on it, and still keep the cost and hassles affordable.

I think the RX-8 is quite adequate stock for my purposes. If Mazda slips an ECU burn in during one of my free servicings, than I'll get an update, but keeping up with the Jones'es aint my bag.

Overall I don't think it's much a problem at autox. It's prettymuch gentlemans honor, and overall I think it's followed. Yes there are a ton of WRX's and turbo cars in general with reflashes and ECU mods but it would be tough for most of te WRX guys I know that autox.

1.) Ride alongs are very common place and simply looking at the boost guage and the feel of the car would clue you in.

2.) There are only a couple companies doing reflashes, at least for the WRX... It would be really simple to find out if someone you autox with has purchased a reflash.

The only people I could see doing it are less acomplished drivers that haven't been a part of the community for very long. If one of the top drivers is using a reflash it would become very obvious very fast, at least for a WRX and most boosted cars where the performace gains can be quite high. With an N/A car, and a car that's newer such as the RX-8 it will be a little trickier to spot it, but right now there's nothing to worry about since there is no reflash available.

Ike

Originally posted by AlexCisneros
If they can only win by giving themselaves 10 more HP it speaks wonders of your driving skills compared to theirs...:cool: True, but at national level, positions can be decided by mere thousandths of a second - in Super Stock this year, first to third were separated by a mere 0.014 seconds. Over two 60-second courses, a 5-10HP difference could easily mean twice that. At the pointy end of the field, taking the high moral ground may mean the difference between hero and zero.

Originally posted by AlexCisneros
ok, on a WRX, EVO, STI you are dealing with turbo cars... ECU flashes usually alter the boost levels which is how they are able to make an additional 40-60HP. I've personally never seen a NA car with an ECU flash pick up more than 5-10HP without severe modifications...

IMHO worry about driving your best and leave the cheaters alone... If they can only win by giving themselaves 10 more HP it speaks wonders of your driving skills compared to theirs...:cool:

A properly tuned car can see 25 plus hsp with no external mods and that would make a differance.

Having been in competitive auto racing scene for years. It may be a gentlemans game but I will say this. There are two types of competitors Loosers and Cheaters. Yea I am shure I will get flamed for this but it is the truth. Yea autoX says you need to declare an alluminum flywheel also but many are not declared.

Yes by the way the vin number is also used in calculating the checksum so that is not gonna be able to be used. The internal identification numbers can be used in the reflash of the program so that is not gonna be able to be used. A dealer is not going to be able to reflash an ecu that has the latest update from Mazda it is not allowed by the software.

I know of WRX ECU reflashes that don't touch boost and still get 20-25hp improvements. The biggest benefit might not be at the peak, but the improvement over the area of the curve is tremendous.

As for the RX-8, look at canzoomer. Just messing with fueling he is getting at least 20hp out of the RX-8. That is huge.

The only way to detect will be monitoring the sensors. OBD-2 readers will give you timing advance, fuel trim values, etc. and you can compare a control car against a suspected car.

Originally posted by O.R.A.
I know of WRX ECU reflashes that don't touch boost and still get 20-25hp improvements. The biggest benefit might not be at the peak, but the improvement over the area of the curve is tremendous.

As for the RX-8, look at canzoomer. Just messing with fueling he is getting at least 20hp out of the RX-8. That is huge.

The only way to detect will be monitoring the sensors. OBD-2 readers will give you timing advance, fuel trim values, etc. and you can compare a control car against a suspected car.

Yes and No The advance curve is generated based on load. So sitting in someone's car watching the sensor values will tell you nothing. You would have to be making thatt car perform inorder to tell this. There is no advantage in advancing the timing at idle.

Of course. That is what I suggested on my first post.

Another idea is to have a rule that states that the event organizers reserve the right to put all the ECU's of the same model cars into a pool and re-destribute them for the duration of the event.

Can't do it the immobolizer will disable the car. Why worry about it mod your car then you will be on a level playing field or at least on the top of it at anyrate.

Originally posted by O.R.A.
I know of WRX ECU reflashes that don't touch boost and still get 20-25hp improvements. The biggest benefit might not be at the peak, but the improvement over the area of the curve is tremendous.

As for the RX-8, look at canzoomer. Just messing with fueling he is getting at least 20hp out of the RX-8. That is huge.

The only way to detect will be monitoring the sensors. OBD-2 readers will give you timing advance, fuel trim values, etc. and you can compare a control car against a suspected car.


Who is making this reflash that doesn't touch boost? Because I sure don't know of one.

Vishnu will do it for you if you want to.

Originally posted by Dr. Lightspeed
Why worry about it mod your car then you will be on a level playing field or at least on the top of it at anyrate.

It is not OK to cheat just because others do it.

Originally posted by O.R.A.
Vishnu will do it for you if you want to.

I suppose they have some maps that they don't commonly use, so I could see that.

Yeah, they've done custom maps for customers that wanted to stay STX legal.

Just learn to be a much better driver! :D

When I autocrossed in my RX-7 years ago I did it for the fun of it. At the time I didn't know what the rules were. I just wanted to go out and have fun. I was told that my car could be in a certain class so I entered it there. I didn't know until much later that I wasn't even in the right class. Aluminum flywheel, headers, no cat, intake, swaybars, struts, springs and I still got to run with others who had nothing and I had an oil leak. That was a tech inspectors fault. Like I said this was before I knew anything about the sport and wasn't there to compete anyways, just have fun. I didn't run the fastest out of my class but I was easily in the top percentage. I just wasn't the best driver out there. If I run now I'll just enter in class X. I don't care about competition or standings. I just want to have fun. My friend is more concerned with the damn rules and won't touch his car so he can stay in the same class. He might not even enter a race more than once a year.

I've already learnt to be a much better driver! I've been driving in competition for many years, and I'm pretty darned good at it these days, if I may blow my own horn for a moment. I seriously believe I would be a trophy contender at Nationals (another reason I was so bummed not to be able to go this year), but while I don't mind sinking a few bucks into the car for legal suspension tweaks, etc, I draw the line at plunging multiple thousands of dollars into Penske remote-reservoir shocks, or making illegal modifications.

As Ony has said, some of us don't like to cheat just because everyone else is. But if the SCCA cedes that this is an area that they cannot police, and authorises ECU modifications, then I'll be the first in line for one.

Originally posted by eccles
I've already learnt to be a much better driver! I've been driving in competition for many years, and I'm pretty darned good at it these days, if I may blow my own horn for a moment. I seriously believe I would be a trophy contender at Nationals (another reason I was so bummed not to be able to go this year), but while I don't mind sinking a few bucks into the car for legal suspension tweaks, etc, I draw the line at plunging multiple thousands of dollars into Penske remote-reservoir shocks, or making illegal modifications.

As Ony has said, some of us don't like to cheat just because everyone else is. But if the SCCA cedes that this is an area that they cannot police, and authorises ECU modifications, then I'll be the first in line for one.


Maybe I'm to much of an optimist, but I'd like to think there are far more people out there like you and I, than people that feel the need to cheat in what is a pretty meaningless yet fun form of motorsports.

And when it really comes down to it autox is more about driving than club races at larger tracks. There is just such a small margin of error and HP will not make up for a poor driver. We've got a few national champs in my region and they are part of the governing body of the local club. They enforce the rules and are rather serious about it, I'd be shocked if it turned out they were cheating in any way, they are just amazing drivers. They often hop in other peoples cars and can turn laps much faster than the owner of the car and it's the first time they've driven it.

This is a bit of a sore subject for me since I've been wrongly accused of cheating in motorsports. When I was karting in my first year in Sr. Sportsman I won pole position for the final race and found out that there had been several compalints lodged against me because the guys that had been doing it for 15-20 years thought there was no way I could be beating them. They accused me of driving overly agressive and said I should have been black flaged in one of the heats, they accused me of cheating with fuel, pretty much you name it and I was accused of it. One of them even tried to start a fight with me after I had started at the back of the pack and passed him (the leader) on the last lap. I never touched karts with him but he claimed he was faster than me and I got in front of him and held him up.

I was 16 at the time and couldn't believe what I was being put through. They ended up tearing apart my kart after the last heat and went over it with a fine tooth comb. There was absolutely nothing wrong with my setup and my pole spot held, I was even over weight by a little. Sunday at the finals I ran away with the win and I got more appologies than you can imagine. Even the guy that tried to start a fight with me came over and said I was faster than him and he understood why I made the move on him that I did in the last heat. It felt good, but I was left very hurt by the whole experience.

I guess my point is just because someone is better than you does not mean they cheat. You may think you're as fast as the guys turning laps faster, it's just those guys cheat... But odds are they are just better drivers. I'm going to toot my own horn now as well... when I am on the track I am in the zone, I'm not nervous, I feel more at home than in any other place. I don't know how I know how to be faster but I just do. Practice helps a lot but natural ability once you get the basic dynamics down is a huge factor. All the HP in the world will not make a bad driver fast, or even a very good driver as fast as the best drivers.

Sorry about the rant.

By the way Eccles, this all wasn't a response to you, and I think our stance on cheating is pretty similar. Didn't want you to think this whole rant was a response to you post :p

One another note, were you the DNS RX-8 at nats this year?

Ike

Originally posted by IkeWRX
One another note, were you the DNS RX-8 at nats this year?Yeah, that was me. Two days before I was due to leave for Topeka, I got told I was being laid off at the end of September. So I elected to stay home and earn money while I could, rather than go to Nats and spend it. :(

Originally posted by eccles
Yeah, that was me. Two days before I was due to leave for Topeka, I got told I was being laid off at the end of September. So I elected to stay home and earn money while I could, rather than go to Nats and spend it. :(

Sorry man, that's a bummer, I would have loved to have seen how well you placed. Goodluck getting back on your feet.


Is anyone planing on doing one lap this year in their 8?

G'day from downunder -- have been lurking on this issue as I was involved in protesting some motorsport regs many years ago as manager of rally team (FIA regs -- officially in French to begin with -- nightmare).

To me, if the reg cannot be easily and effectively enforced then it shouldn't exist. That's not an excuse for cheating, not is it intended to give allow 'limitless spending' on by the fortunate few on excessive mods, but rather to get over dumb laws and regs.

Theoretically, at least, there should be good tools these days to identify ECU mods, but the mfrs try to keep their systems closed, so that turns out not to be the case.

In the absence of these and if people want to keep competition level, then the only effective control is to establish a vehicle class system (and maybe you only need a couple of classes - stock, some intermediate class and unlimited). In my experience, you can pretty objectively identify performances that amount to more than simple driver skill, although I admit sometimes you also discover a great driver amongst an otherwise mediocre field.

Timbo

Back in '89-'93 when my Miata and I were contenders in Southeast region Solo-II I found myself always swapping CSP wins with a quiet fellow in an innocent-looking '79 RX7. I was convinced that he cheated, and on careful scrutiny I fiinally found it -- a MENSA sticker!

I'm sure that he was running a DNA reflash, because everyone knows that we "Deliverance" types ain't that smart out of the box.

{{{{

Yeah, but not all us Mensans are rocket scientists, either. :)

Going back to N/A's only picking up 10hp.. Well remember the RX-8 has been detuned to meet EPA standards. I'm sure a few tweaks could yeild 20-30hp gains. Time will tell.

This is one of the best threads i have seen in RX8 forums!

Several comments:

I will use as an example the defunct Neon Challenge series,

"put all ecu's on a pool and redestribute them randomly"

That was done the first year of the Neon Challenge series, then as ecu's changed a bit ti couldnt be done.

"Having been in competitive auto racing scene for years. It may be a gentlemans game but I will say this. There are two types of competitors Loosers and Cheaters. Yea I am shure I will get flamed for this but it is the truth. Yea autoX says you need to declare an alluminum flywheel also but many are not declared. "

I though that was true, but there are always exceptions. But in the case of the Neon Challenge I found out years later that the persons that won the most, yes they were the top drivers, excellent, BUT they were also cheating. One even had custom gears, tranny all in the STOCK neon tranny case! all at a cost of $6,000. Others had shimmed the susp. to corner balance the car. Others had balanced internals.

HP mods dont help much on an AutoX, tranny mods do. On a circuit track, say 1.5 miles with 6-7 corners, HP is huge. Of course, you have to be a good driver to take advantage of it but at the top levels of competitions the differences between drivers are pretty slim.

At the local club racing I find that the winners are all good drivers i mean you cant win only by cheating, but the winnners are also cheating! They prolly could win here and there withouth cheating but not nearly as easily or as often. Most hard core competitors just take advanatge of the weaknesses in the respective regulating bodies they race in.


regarding turbo cars and ECU mods, well, on the WRX the stock boost curve hits peak and drops of significantly above 5k rpm up to redline. Most people that race WRX modify the ECU to hold that peak boost pressure up to redline! the result, 20-25hp increasy in power!