i'm thinking of dropping a renesis in a lotus elise. can anyone thing of any potential trouble? it'll fight, i imagine. and it'd be sweet.

Wow. that's the kind of project that would make me entirely too happy to see.

The whole project will be trouble but thats what's money is for. You might just get a http://www.diasio.com/
Many people post ideas like yours, few ever get them done. You should just do it then make a thread about it. Its not like you can get much help from a board. That type of swap is a total custom job.

that'd be sweet. do it.

With an awesome fabricatior, engineering, but ton of money and parts, anything is possible

i'm thinking of dropping a renesis in a lotus elise. can anyone thing of any potential trouble? it'll fight, i imagine. and it'd be sweet.

That's my dream at the moment....if only I had boat loads of cash lying around!!

the elise is a mid engine car, that means to put a renesis in it, you'd probably have to get a custom transmission

If the Renesis trany is short enough, he can use it. Power is still exiting longitudinally.

the elise is a mid engine car, that means to put a renesis in it, you'd probably have to get a custom transmission He could get a Hewland 6-speed sequential FTR Transaxle like whats in the rear engine Renesis powered Diasio D962R in the link I posted above.

I've thought about this before, it sounds amazing.

But at this point, why not just go tube frame like the diasio?

the elise is practically a tube frame anyway. At least it was, until it will be mandated to have lots of extra safetyness added to it.

i'm thinking of dropping a renesis in a lotus elise. can anyone thing of any potential trouble? it'll fight, i imagine. and it'd be sweet.

great idea, r u rich??? if you got a spare lotus i got a spare motor... i have lots of free time to spend your money..

deal???? :)

beers :beer:

Will you call it the Renelise?

Renesis and Elise is an ideal combination in keeping with NoRotorNoMotor philosophy. However I would not do it for any performance reasons, because in the end probably little or no gains for large amounts of cash. It costs a bit to perform a Honda engine conversion, but at least in that case there is a big performance difference there.

If only in an Exige you could see out the back to watch for cops.

The funny thing is, even without a Renesis, I would still like an Elise S, even with mechanical issues as reported on elisetalk. Re-tightening bots for engine mounts, seat belts, falling out headlamp covers, short lifespan of steering wheel column, $2000 - $15,000 fiberglass repair cracks instead of simple $150 door-ding fix...

i think the performance gains would be more than you estimate. getting 190 crank hp from an inline 4, then going to a 190whp (in the 8) rotary and losing over 1000 lbs is going to do a lot, i would think.

swoop, i'm not rich, but i have some money to spend on the right project. i think i found a fairly new renesis for under 2k. I can get a used base elise for under 30k (trade in the 8 maybe). get a cheap beater, then rock out the elise.

throw a turbo on there and yippee ... carrerra gt killer.

expo, the diasio is two motorcycles glued together. i bet it's sweet though. i want to be involved in the creation though. and my project and that car, you're right, can be had for about the same price.

i think the performance gains would be more than you estimate. getting 190 crank hp from an inline 4, then going to a 190whp (in the 8) rotary and losing over 1000 lbs is going to do a lot, i would think.

swoop, i'm not rich, but i have some money to spend on the right project. i think i found a fairly new renesis for under 2k. I can get a used base elise for under 30k (trade in the 8 maybe). get a cheap beater, then rock out the elise.

throw a turbo on there and yippee ... carrerra gt killer.

the trans is going to be the challenge... go for it. i will come watch..

beers :beer:

nah, name it Relise, like what i've named my 8.

i think the performance gains would be more than you estimate. getting 190 crank hp from an inline 4, then going to a 190whp (in the 8) rotary and losing over 1000 lbs is going to do a lot, i would think.


1000? I think the Renesis weighs as much if not more than an 4 cylinder engine.

1000? I think the Renesis weighs as much if not more than an 4 cylinder engine.

hmmm for some reason i read that as 1000 pounds less if u were to use an elise body than the rx8 body...

right, it's the body that's lighter. not sure about the engine. i imagine it's a wash there.

He could get a Hewland 6-speed sequential FTR Transaxle like whats in the rear engine Renesis powered Diasio D962R in the link I posted above.

thats so hawt

expo, the diasio is two motorcycles glued together. i bet it's sweet though. i want to be involved in the creation though. and my project and that car, you're right, can be had for about the same price.
The Diasio D962R is a two passenger track car with the same Renesis rotary engine we have SPECS. (http://www.diasio.com/d962rtext.html)
Having seen a Turbo version at the last track event I went to I can say they are very nice. With a dry weight of 1300 lbs you can see why they are fun.

oh, didn't see the 2R specs. Just saw the original with it's 1000cc yamaha. The 2R seems cooler.

They mention that there's porting and bolt on superchargers available for it when you're ready. Do they know something we don't?

No. Look around and you will see.

It would be see that on a track.

i bet it would get awesome gas mileage for a rotary.

it seems to me like the perfect combo. it makes me wonder why lotus doesn't consider a rotary.

A novelty car or the unusual factor would be the only standout reason to do it.

in chinese culture we call notions like that as:

吃飽飯沒事幹
chi bao fan, mei shi gan

:lol:

Reminds me of this

105209

Would engine cooling be a much worse issue by dumping it in the elise?

i

吃飽飯沒事幹

:lol:

Eats to the full the food to be all right does???

Seems like a pretty bad idea. You'd have to spend thousands to gain what? maybe 10-20 rwhp? Doesn't really seem worth it.

it would be a hawt and fast wankle rotary. if you dropped 1000 lbs off your 8, you'd go a lot faster. you'd corner quicker. but you'd be ugly doing it. it wouldn't look stock at all. putting the engine in the light elise frame gives you the styling and the weight advantage.

I doubt the Elise' radiator is sufficient for a rotary, and I'm not so sure you could fit one much bigger under the clam. worth a look though, if you've got the dough to even attempt this.

The renesis weighs more than the 2ZZ celica engine in the Elise, so any SMALL gains in power the renesis would give, wouldn't make up for the weight.

The renesis weighs more than the 2ZZ celica engine in the Elise, so any SMALL gains in power the renesis would give, wouldn't make up for the weight.

What's the weight of the 2ZZ for comparison sake?

Paul.

2ZZ-GE = 115lbs

Last I heard the Renesis is 245 lbs

That cant be right

Eats to the full the food to be all right does???

It's like, "You've eaten until you're full and you've got nothing you have to do."

I'm new here, I just noticed there is some interest in the Diasio D962R and also a Elise conversion to get more HP.

I own a D962R and have a heavily modified Elise (Turbo ForcedFed 325 HP, Carbon Fiber body, etc.) so what do you need to know?

The Diasio is clearly a faster and a better handling car hands down.

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Also on you tube....................................

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TGwNc4Qf6A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L1re4LR2eA

damn, sequential gearbox and all. thats amazing^

didn't some big Mazda Exec in Japan say he wanted to do this to his Elise?

didn't some big Mazda Exec in Japan say he wanted to do this to his Elise?

The Elise is just fine with the base engine boosted. ForcedFed can take it up to 480 HP.

The Hewland is a marvelous transaxle but the downside is replacement of parts every 3000 miles (ring and pinion with shims) which runs about $5000 and hopefully the gears are all OK or up that number yet again a few thousand. That needs to be factored in when you think about a conversion, so it's not practical.

2ZZ-GE = 115lbs

Nonsense, 1000cc sportbike engines weigh more than that.

Regardless, weight is only one benefit. The biggest benefit of a rotary is the small size which enables it sit lower and farther back than any piston engine. It’s the #1 reason the 8 handles so well, and I’m sure it would benefit the Elise the same way.

Otherwise, the hp advantage over the Toyota isn’t huge and can easily be overcome with FI, so it’s not worth the huge expense if your looking for extra hp. But I’d much rather have a smooth rotary with a perfectly linear power curve (that can shift all day at 9300rpm) than any 4 banger.

Ja, but put a turbo'd Renesis in the Elise.

your wrong on the weight of the stock lotus engine it is 115 KG

That equates to = approx 253 lbs


If you dont believe me then read towards to bottom here....

http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/toyota.html


(google is your friend) :SHOCKED:

For the rotary freaks it would be neat. However, all you're really gaining is the feel of the rotary. Horsepower stock isn't nearly as different as the BHP numbers indicate, you'd be gaining weight with the renesis, and losing reliability and gas mileage. Plus, with the turbo kits avilable for the Elise you're looking at more horsepower than any turbo kit for the RX-8, plus I believe the fuel cut is at nearly 9000rpms. The benefits of positioning of the Renesis and CoG, would be minimal if there actually are any benefits.

^ huh? a switch to the renesis should;
- gain about 20hp at the wheels
- likely loose weight; everyone quotes the renesis fully dressed incl. the flywheel at 260, but the engine itself weighs 180, I betcha the 250 pounds quoted for the toyota is engine weight only)
- reliability isn't a point worth mentioning
- to say that a smaller engine and its potential packaging benefits would make no differences handling wise is to ignore physics
- toyota's redline is 1200rpm sooner

I would just put the s2000 motor into it. Takes to boost much better (espically than the renesis), and there are already people that made the swap. Not to mention you can use an AEM standalone and really tune the engine.

I would just put the s2000 motor into it. Takes to boost much better (espically than the renesis), and there are already people that made the swap. Not to mention you can use an AEM standalone and really tune the engine.

how the hell do you figure an 11.0:1 motor takes to boost better? Without lowering the compression of the s2000 motor most kits only push 5-8psi on pump gas. anything above that you need to start mixing your own exotic fuels or paying 4.50+/gallon for the high test stuff. Where as the Renesis you can easily pump 10-12psi on. And I'm sure it weighs more.

how the hell do you figure an 11.0:1 motor takes to boost better? Without lowering the compression of the s2000 motor most kits only push 5-8psi on pump gas. anything above that you need to start mixing your own exotic fuels or paying 4.50+/gallon for the high test stuff. Where as the Renesis you can easily pump 10-12psi on. And I'm sure it weighs more.

Show me a 400 hp boosted rx8 using a stock renesis engine. For every 1 renesis at that power there are 10 S2000's.

I know of a SC S2000 that puts down close to 400 hp, the turbo'd ones are much higher HP. They have a problem with the driveline holding the power not the motor.

search www.s2ki.com you'll see lots of boosted honda's running pump gas.

Show me a 400 hp boosted rx8 using a stock renesis engine. For every 1 renesis at that power there are 10 S2000's.

I know of a SC S2000 that puts down close to 400 hp, the turbo'd ones are much higher HP. They have a problem with the driveline holding the power not the motor.

show me one of those on STOCK 11:1 compression that doesn't use a ridiculous octane fuel or AI. I bet the compression on those things are in the 8,5-9:1 range. And again, heavier and the packaging is larger. On top of that is the fact you don't NEED 400whp in a 2000lb track car.

for the elise, the only engine swap that seems reasonable would be a front drive honda motor like a k22, sure weight is an issue but you get 2 cams, vtec and a revy 200hp, and with just bolt ons you get another 30hp, and with a turbo you can easily be over 300, plus you don't have to deal with a transmission swap as well as an engine swap, and reliabilities issues related to a Frankenstein engine tranny setup

custom bell housing adapter and custom input shaft. It's done all the time. Look at the Porsche's running chevy V-8's in the rear end.

not the *purist* form of a Porsche... Lotus are butchered in the beginning imo, they have toyota engines in them already for god's sake...

show me one of those on STOCK 11:1 compression that doesn't use a ridiculous octane fuel or AI. I bet the compression on those things are in the 8,5-9:1 range. And again, heavier and the packaging is larger. On top of that is the fact you don't NEED 400whp in a 2000lb track car.

use an inlinepro gasket you can run stock compression on a s2000. Using a stock compression on the s2000 motor. Look up slideways and fltsfshr on the s2ki.com site. Fltsfshr is my dad and turns out 374 whp at 10 lbs.

He runs a 2002 S2000

Stock compression
Vortec SC
550 cc injectors
AEM ecu
and a list of other stuff but that is the major ones

pump gas.

The guys who really turn up the boost drop the compression to 9.75, and get well into the 400's of power some are over 500 whp.


Not to mention there are NA cars that are building them up with independant throttle bodies etc that are turning out 320 whp.

you mean the thicker head gaskets by inline pro that lower the compression? go figure.

In my opinion a Renesis swap into a Lotus is not about power, it's about doing something unique that will turn some heads. I mean, who wouldn't go wild when they see a Lotus in the staging area for SSXI?

Anyone that pushes the marginal HP gains just doesn't really understand what major modding to cars is about. It's all personality.

^ huh? a switch to the renesis should;
- gain about 20hp at the wheels
- likely loose weight; everyone quotes the renesis fully dressed incl. the flywheel at 260, but the engine itself weighs 180, I betcha the 250 pounds quoted for the toyota is engine weight only)
- reliability isn't a point worth mentioning
- to say that a smaller engine and its potential packaging benefits would make no differences handling wise is to ignore physics
- toyota's redline is 1200rpm sooner

This has been gone over several times on this forum so I'm not going to get into it at length. But...

1.) On dynojets Elises usually dyno between 165 and 175whp, the RX-8 is usually between 175 and 185whp. If you think that equates to 20whp I can't help you.

2.) Mazda told mags years ago that the Renesis weighs around 130kg which is probably dry considering that's usually what manufacturers use. Toyota states 115kg.

3.) Sure it is, as is gas mileage...

4.) I said the benefits would be minimal I never said no benefits.. Maybe it would make a difference, maybe it wouldn't, we don't know. I was involved in grassroots racing long enough to realize that lowering CoG and constantly worrying about balancing out weight doesn't always equate to better handling with faster laptimes. The Elise is one of the best handling cars in the world and it's hard to fault their choice of the 2ZZ.

5.) The stock Elise's redline is 8000rpm (1000rpm difference) and fuel cut is 8350.

In my opinion a Renesis swap into a Lotus is not about power, it's about doing something unique that will turn some heads. I mean, who wouldn't go wild when they see a Lotus in the staging area for SSXI?

Anyone that pushes the marginal HP gains just doesn't really understand what major modding to cars is about. It's all personality.

Agreed, the only way it makes sense is if you're a rotary fanatic and want a fun project to dump some money into. Otherwise putting a renesis in an Elise simply isn't worth the trouble.

you mean the thicker head gaskets by inline pro that lower the compression? go figure.

You'll need that for lots of boost. My dad's car runs the stock head gasket stock compression.

T2.) Mazda told mags years ago that the Renesis weighs around 130kg which is probably dry considering that's usually what manufacturers use. Toyota states 115kg.Dry Renesis is 84kg (http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=1825331&postcount=89).

^ on dynojets, all the Elise dyno's I've seen on stock NA Elises is consistently low 160's to higher 160's - Sport Compact mag did 166hp.

Renesis have been all over the place, 170 to 200 stock, but I'd say the average is in the 180's.

This has been gone over several times on this forum so I'm not going to get into it at length. But...

5.) The stock Elise's redline is 8000rpm (1000rpm difference) and fuel cut is 8350.

The Elise's transient fuel cut is ~8500-8600. You can't run it that high for more than a few seconds, but I don't think any engine is run at its fuel cut for more than that amount of time, anyway.

As far as handling goes, a Renesis would lower the Cg of the engine by a few inches while adding a little weight and probably doing very little in terms of inertia. There'll probably be no discernible difference between the way the two cars handle. I think that it would be cool to see a Renesis in the Elise, but I really think that the cool-factor would be the biggest reason to do this kind of swap. The other benefits, even the increased power and torque, really wouldn't be hugely significant, especially when compared to what you could do to the 2ZZ for that amount of money/effort.

^ it's wouldn't just be lower, but also more centered. Might not make a huge diff. in an Elise, but if the 8 had the Toyota 4 it sure as hell would handle differently. Also, I still highly doubt the renesis is heavier, there's no way a dry inline 4 1800cc engine weighs less than 180 pounds.

Don't get why lotus would advertise a 7800rpm redline if you say cut off is at 8600. Most cars cut off 200-300rpm north of redline.

Or you could just buy an ariel atom

Or you could just buy an ariel atom

In a second if I could!

In a second if I could!

I got offered to go for a ride in one with around 340 whp. He said I would seriously have to wear depends (yes the diaper) because you can have some problems. He wears them when ever he drives it hard. I thought that was gross and said no thanks.

^ it's wouldn't just be lower, but also more centered. Might not make a huge diff. in an Elise, but if the 8 had the Toyota 4 it sure as hell would handle differently. Also, I still highly doubt the renesis is heavier, there's no way a dry inline 4 1800cc engine weighs less than 180 pounds.

Don't get why lotus would advertise a 7800rpm redline if you say cut off is at 8600. Most cars cut off 200-300rpm north of redline.

You don't know that it would be more centered. You also don't know that centered would be better, you're doing nothing but making assumptions... There's also no way the Renesis is 180 lbs. dry, I guarantee that is not a dressed weight (with accessories).

Lastly, I don't know where you come up with this nonsense. Show me one single source that shows the federal elise as having a 7800rpm redline. That's where it makes peak power, that's NOT redline. I believe I've pointed out the same mistake on other cars to you before, but seemingly you still don't get it. Some sources list the redline at 8k, others at 8300 or 8350 because I believe that's where fuel cut becomes a factor and it will go beyond 8500 for a small amount of time.

^ it's wouldn't just be lower, but also more centered. Might not make a huge diff. in an Elise, but if the 8 had the Toyota 4 it sure as hell would handle differently. Also, I still highly doubt the renesis is heavier, there's no way a dry inline 4 1800cc engine weighs less than 180 pounds.

Don't get why lotus would advertise a 7800rpm redline if you say cut off is at 8600. Most cars cut off 200-300rpm north of redline.

Actually it'd make more of difference in a Lotus than in a 8 in a physics pov. But since the Elise is MR, and 8 is FR, i am guessing thats where you're coming from.

However, don't forget the toyota engine is mounted in a transverse configuration. The reason I think is because the inline-4 is a little long to fit in a Longitudinal layout. The renesis is definitely shorter and *could* possibly be mounted Longitudinal in an elise. The center of gravity could be lowered more than an inch IMO, since the top of a piston engine is pretty heavy with the cams, valves, intake, exhaust plumbing. and a lot more for the yaw moment (centering the mass), if we're talking a longitudinal renesis.
________
How to use a genie vaporizer (http://www.vaporizers.net/)

^ it's wouldn't just be lower, but also more centered. Might not make a huge diff. in an Elise, but if the 8 had the Toyota 4 it sure as hell would handle differently. Also, I still highly doubt the renesis is heavier, there's no way a dry inline 4 1800cc engine weighs less than 180 pounds.

Don't get why lotus would advertise a 7800rpm redline if you say cut off is at 8600. Most cars cut off 200-300rpm north of redline.

I was basing my previous comment on the previously held belief that the Renesis weighs in at ~303lbs with all accessories and whatnot, which I remember reading on this forum a while ago. A just saw in the Weight thread that Racing Beat measured the engine with accessories at 264lbs, which may put the 13B at a little lighter than the 2ZZ. I believe that the 254lb weight for the 2ZZ-GE is the weight of the dry but fully assembled engine. I don't know if it includes accessories or not, which could change things a bit. It'd be nice if someone came up with a standardized way to weigh engines, and then made that info available...

Anyway, if you really want to get down to details, the 2ZZ-GE is offset toward the passenger side in the Elise. This means that it helps counter the driver's weight when there's only one person in the car! :) Adding a more centered Renesis would ever-so-slightly unbalance the car in that way (assuming it's balanced now), which would ever-so-slightly affect the car's handling. Changes like this I don't regard as being particularly significant, and, as Ike said, any benefits or harm that they may cause will be minimal. The Cg movement might be a bit more substantial, but then again moving ~15% of the car's mass down by ~3" would move the car's total Cg down by less than 0.5". Is this enough to really have any effect? I don't know. If I had to guess, I'd say it'd be minor at best, but I really can't say for sure. :dunno:

According to the Elisetalk people, the 2ZZ has a steady state redline of 8000rpm and a transient rev limit of ~8600rpm, as told by data pulled off of their ECUs. This is pretty comparable to a 4G63 (7000rpm redline, 7600rpm rev limit) or the Renesis (9000rpm redline, 9500rpm rev limit). That much separation between redline and rev limit isn't quite the norm for most engines, but it really isn't too extraordinary, either. What I really wonder is why Lotus didn't mark a redline on the tach...

Sorry for the longish post, but I was doing some other work and just kept coming back and adding more every few minutes... Now it's time to get home so I can catch the Sox game :)

A bone stock Renesis would dyno at around 200 to the wheels in an Elise with the Elise driveline components.

Paul.

A bone stock Renesis would dyno at around 200 to the wheels in an Elise with the Elise driveline components.

Paul.


Pure speculation.

why would someone do this?

Pure speculation.

It is pure speculation until proven, but hey, what do I know?

Paul.

I still don't get why anyone would do this...... I'd rather put in a honda motor that can achieve better fuel mileage and put out the same numbers than the renesis.

I still don't get why anyone would do this......

:dunno: I really don't see a point in swapping a 13B into an Elise. It'd be like swapping a Subaru H4 into a RX-8. Utterly pointless.

You don't know that it would be more centered. You also don't know that centered would be better, you're doing nothing but making assumptions... There's also no way the Renesis is 180 lbs. dry, I guarantee that is not a dressed weight (with accessories).

Lastly, I don't know where you come up with this nonsense. Show me one single source that shows the federal elise as having a 7800rpm redline. That's where it makes peak power, that's NOT redline. I believe I've pointed out the same mistake on other cars to you before, but seemingly you still don't get it. Some sources list the redline at 8k, others at 8300 or 8350 because I believe that's where fuel cut becomes a factor and it will go beyond 8500 for a small amount of time.

Your a goof, but I love to argue:

1. It's a significantly smaller engine, therefore it can be placed lower and more centered than a conventional piston engine. Do you realize how far back and low it is in the 8? Its mass is just beyond my right foot! My BMW flat twin is physically bigger! Sometimes it takes a swap to realize it; a friend I knew who ran an MG in solo 2 swapped his 4 for a rotary and it looked like a freak'n tiny tumour off the tranny. Of course it wouldn't benefit the Elise as much as an MG, but to argue that it would have no benefit defies reason.

2. I never said 180 is a dressed weight (I said 260 dressed w/flywheel), 180 is engine only.

3. The Exige redlines at peak power (8000rpm), so I assumed the Elise redlines at its 7800 power peak too.
http://www.carpages.ca/go/roadtest/2007_lotus_exige_s_road__track_test.aspx

Regardless, the reason we're talking about redlines is obviously we're debating which engines characteristics would best fit a car like the Elise. A renesis seems to pick up power right up to cut off (which I still don't know if its 9300 or 9500) but you can hold it there smoothly all day. In the lotus, as this link suggests, it starts to ebb off at 7000rpm and can only hold its overrev for 1.5 sec. I'll take the rotary thank you.

I don't care that you're not impressed by the renesis, but thinking you can come on here and suggest that it's no better than a 1800cc 4cyl. Toyota needs some better arguements than what you've provided.

What I do agree with what others have said is swapping a renesis with a 2ZZ is not worth the time and effort compared to other mods that they can do. That said, someone has yet to convince me or any other reasonable person that a stock Elise is better off with a 2ZZ vs. a renesis.

The benefits of positioning of the Renesis and CoG, would be minimal if there actually are any benefits.

if it's for racing, they'll also need to tear down the engine less with the renesis.

Your a goof, but I love to argue:

1. It's a significantly smaller engine, therefore it can be placed lower and more centered than a conventional piston engine. Do you realize how far back and low it is in the 8? Its mass is just beyond my right foot! My BMW flat twin is physically bigger! Sometimes it takes a swap to realize it; a friend I knew who ran an MG in solo 2 swapped his 4 for a rotary and it looked like a freak'n tiny tumour off the tranny. Of course it wouldn't benefit the Elise as much as an MG, but to argue that it would have no benefit defies reason.

2. I never said 180 is a dressed weight (I said 260 dressed w/flywheel), 180 is engine only.

3. The Exige redlines at peak power (8000rpm), so I assumed the Elise redlines at its 7800 power peak too.
http://www.carpages.ca/go/roadtest/2007_lotus_exige_s_road__track_test.aspx

Regardless, the reason we're talking about redlines is obviously we're debating which engine's characteristics would best fit a car like the Elise. A renesis seems to pick up power right up to cut off (which I still don't know if its 9300 or 9500) but you can hold it there smoothly all day. In the lotus, as this link suggests, it starts to ebb off at 7000rpm and can only hold its overrev for 1.5 sec. I'll take the rotary thank you.

I don't care that you're not impressed by the renesis, but thinking you can come on here and suggest that it's no better than a 1800cc 4cyl. Toyota needs some better arguements than what you've provided.

What I do agree with what others have said is swapping a renesis with a 2ZZ is not worth the time and effort compared to other mods that they can do. That said, someone has yet to convince me or any other reasonable person that a stock Elise is better off with a 2ZZ vs. a renesis.

1.) And just about everyone in this thread agrees with me that the benefits would be minimal if there really were any noticable benefits. At no point did I say there would be no benefit. But, a I've pointed out in other threads, your reading comprehension is pitiful.

2.) I've come up with several number that lead to the belief that the 2ZZ is lighter than the Renesis, you haven't shown a freaking thing to support your claims.

3.) WTF are you talking about? That's an Exige S and it's peak horsepower is lower in the rev range than the Elise and Exige, yet just like those cars it redlines at 8k. It starts to "eb" because it's a supercharged version of the engine, and that's how supercharges work... At no point was anyone in this thread talking about the supercharged Exige S.


Stop posting, you're making yourself look like an idiot.

You're right Ike, an extra 42hp at peak and 21lb/ft of torque (At 1300 rpm less by the way) would have only a minimal effect :) .

Paul.

1.) Stop posting, you're making yourself look like an idiot.
Yeah, I’m an idiot for arguing with you; king of all idiots. Guilty!

So let’s wrap this up sparky…

Which is lighter? Neither one of us can prove it, though I’m certain you’re wrong. If you doubt my numbers than search the site.

Which is smaller? No question, the renesis. If you don’t think this makes a difference (or just a tiny difference) then maybe you can tell every automotive or motorcycle engineer who spends every waking moment trying to shave grams or millimeters off their performance engine designs. Yaw, pitch, inertia, CG…my ass says the mighty Ike. Couldn’t feel a difference in a 1900 pound that could tell you the year of the dime it rolled over, eh Ike?

Which is more powerful? Again, the renesis. The 2ZZ may be the only engine that would make the renesis feel torquey.

Which is more reliable? You say the 2ZZ, but I’ve heard of some oil pressure problems at constant high RPMs. On a track day tool like an Elise, a rotary would fare much better.

Which has better fuel economy? The 2ZZ, like that matters on a freak’n $60000.00 sportscar.

Which has a more fitting character for a sportscar? How ‘bout an engine with the smoothness of a V12 and can happily shriek right up to 9500rpm.

So, you tell me which is the better engine for an Elise – the renesis or the 2ZZ? If it’s the 2ZZ, then tell us why. If it’s the renesis, then shut up.

Yeah, I’m an idiot for arguing with you; king of all idiots. Guilty!

So let’s wrap this up sparky…

Which is lighter? Neither one of us can prove it, though I’m certain you’re wrong. If you doubt my numbers than search the site.

Which is smaller? No question, the renesis. If you don’t think this makes a difference (or just a tiny difference) then maybe you can tell every automotive or motorcycle engineer who spends every waking moment trying to shave grams or millimeters off their performance engine designs. Yaw, pitch, inertia, CG…my ass says the mighty Ike. Couldn’t feel a difference in a 1900 pound that could tell you the year of the dime it rolled over, eh Ike?

Which is more powerful? Again, the renesis. The 2ZZ may be the only engine that would make the renesis feel torquey.

Which is more reliable? You say the 2ZZ, but I’ve heard of some oil pressure problems at constant high RPMs. On a track day tool like an Elise, a rotary would fare much better.

Which has better fuel economy? The 2ZZ, like that matters on a freak’n $60000.00 sportscar.

Which has a more fitting character for a sportscar? How ‘bout an engine with the smoothness of a V12 and can happily shriek right up to 9500rpm.

So, you tell me which is the better engine for an Elise – the renesis or the 2ZZ? If it’s the 2ZZ, then tell us why. If it’s the renesis, then shut up.

I've searched the site, and I was around participating in this discusion the first 5 times it came up. All the info available suggest the 2ZZ is lighter.

If it makes such a difference then how come Mazda is the only company still even bothering with the rotary engine? If the rotary is so superior why are those engineers doing all that hard work instead of just popping in a rotary? Oh, that's right, because for most people the negatives outweigh the postitives.

Again, the renesis is only more powerful by a small amount. Unless you use Mazda math and then it's a 42hp difference, aka about 10-15whp. :uhh:

Find me the drama about all the replaced 2ZZ engines in various cars and I'll listen to your argument, until then the 2ZZ is more reliable.

It does matter, there's only about a 10k difference between a fully loaded RX-8 and an Elise. Yes, different price categories, but just because someone had 45k to spend on an Elise doesn't mean they don't appreciate the car getting decent gas mileage. I would imagine they also appreciate the fact that every Toyota tech on the planet knows their engine inside and out.

Since when does a higher redline for an engine indicate it's more fitting for a sportscar?

I think I've already made it quite clear which engine I feel is best for the Elise. The F20C... errr K20A... errr I mean 2ZZGE. ;) Why, because of all the reasons I already pointed out, and most of all because it's already in the freaking car. A car that is one of the best handling cars in the world, despite it's, according to you, inferior engine.

Hell, why don't we stop this nonsense and find out what the Elise/Exige owners would rather have in their cars. Care to place some money on how they feel?

How much does the k20a weigh?

How much does the k20a weigh?

I believe more than any other engine we're talking about in this thread. Probably a little heavier than a F20C which weighs around 325 lbs. fully dressed.

I've searched the site, and I was around participating in this discusion the first 5 times it came up. All the info available suggest the 2ZZ is lighter.

If it makes such a difference then how come Mazda is the only company still even bothering with the rotary engine? If the rotary is so superior why are those engineers doing all that hard work instead of just popping in a rotary? Oh, that's right, because for most people the negatives outweigh the postitives.

Again, the renesis is only more powerful by a small amount. Unless you use Mazda math and then it's a 42hp difference, aka about 10-15whp. :uhh:

Find me the drama about all the replaced 2ZZ engines in various cars and I'll listen to your argument, until then the 2ZZ is more reliable.

It does matter, there's only about a 10k difference between a fully loaded RX-8 and an Elise. Yes, different price categories, but just because someone had 45k to spend on an Elise doesn't mean they don't appreciate the car getting decent gas mileage. I would imagine they also appreciate the fact that every Toyota tech on the planet knows their engine inside and out.

Since when does a higher redline for an engine indicate it's more fitting for a sportscar?

I think I've already made it quite clear which engine I feel is best for the Elise. The F20C... errr K20A... errr I mean 2ZZGE. ;) Why, because of all the reasons I already pointed out, and most of all because it's already in the freaking car. A car that is one of the best handling cars in the world, despite it's, according to you, inferior engine.

Hell, why don't we stop this nonsense and find out what the Elise/Exige owners would rather have in their cars. Care to place some money on how they feel?

1. Poorcollegekid is right, there is no standard way of measuring engine weight. But again, I bet the 253 pounds quoted for a 2ZZ is the undressed dry weight (vs. 180 dry and undressed for the renesis). Neither one of us has proof, don’t act like you do.

2. You may think Mazda shouldn’t bother building the renesis, so what? 90% of people on this site think they should.

3. It’s more like a 20hp average advantage, not small on 1900 pounds. Actually, dyno issues aside, I never seen a stock Elise measured at more the 166hp, but we’ve seen a stock renesis show close to 200hp.

4. Ask Car & Driver about the 2ZZ problems;
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/13334/2004-lotus-elise.html

5. Yeah, as if gas mileage is such a popular discussion on Lotus forums. :uhh:

6. A higher redline, a smoother engine, a more linear power curve is ALWAYS preferred, not to mention more torque and hp – 5 things the renesis has all over the 2ZZ.

7. You not giving the renesis any props doesn’t do much for your credibility, maybe the reason why most here don’t even bother to challenge you...actually why do I care???
Also, remember the Lotus is not without flaws handling wise, actually it was the 2nd hardest car to drive of the eight sportscars that Motortrend recently tested, with no shortage of comments about its twitchy back end. No surprise the Porsches won that tests with their flat sixes…oh, but engine configuration has little to no bearing on handling dynamics, so says you.

8. The rotary actually comes up often on Lotus forums, several suggesting it would be the better engine, though several others suggesting it wouldn’t work including my fav. who said the iron rotary weighs “483 pounds” – proving again that for every reasonably intelligent guy there’s 20 retards in close proximity.

That’s it for me.

I've searched the site, and I was around participating in this discusion the first 5 times it came up. All the info available suggest the 2ZZ is lighter.

If it makes such a difference then how come Mazda is the only company still even bothering with the rotary engine? If the rotary is so superior why are those engineers doing all that hard work instead of just popping in a rotary? Oh, that's right, because for most people the negatives outweigh the postitives.

Again, the renesis is only more powerful by a small amount. Unless you use Mazda math and then it's a 42hp difference, aka about 10-15whp. :uhh:

Find me the drama about all the replaced 2ZZ engines in various cars and I'll listen to your argument, until then the 2ZZ is more reliable.

It does matter, there's only about a 10k difference between a fully loaded RX-8 and an Elise. Yes, different price categories, but just because someone had 45k to spend on an Elise doesn't mean they don't appreciate the car getting decent gas mileage. I would imagine they also appreciate the fact that every Toyota tech on the planet knows their engine inside and out.

Since when does a higher redline for an engine indicate it's more fitting for a sportscar?

I think I've already made it quite clear which engine I feel is best for the Elise. The F20C... errr K20A... errr I mean 2ZZGE. ;) Why, because of all the reasons I already pointed out, and most of all because it's already in the freaking car. A car that is one of the best handling cars in the world, despite it's, according to you, inferior engine.

Hell, why don't we stop this nonsense and find out what the Elise/Exige owners would rather have in their cars. Care to place some money on how they feel?

I'm no fan of Mazda's disproven hp figures but apparently you have a problem with the new SAE standards. The current Mazda is proven to make 232 horse flywheel. Have you ever seen the RX8 gearbox or diff out of the chassis? If you have you may inderstand why it makes what it makes, say vs, the S2000 on a chassis dyno. You might try running an Elise with the relatively heavy RX8 wheels and see what happens to it's whp.

The difference between the 2 engines is drastic whether you like it or not (In favor of the rotary). The 40+ horses are real.

Seal.

I'm no fan of Mazda's disproven hp figures but apparently you have a problem with the new SAE standards. The current Mazda is proven to make 232 horse flywheel. Have you ever seen the RX8 gearbox or diff out of the chassis? If you have you may inderstand why it makes what it makes, say vs, the S2000 on a chassis dyno. You might try running an Elise with the relatively heavy RX8 wheels and see what happens to it's whp.

The difference between the 2 engines is drastic whether you like it or not (In favor of the rotary). The 40+ horses are real.

Seal.

I don't have a problem with the SAE testing, nor did I the old testing. The current system is still far from perfect though. If you honestly think on average the F22C is making only 5hp more than the Renesis you're a fool. FYI, the tranny in the RX-8and S2000 are made by the same people and are the same unit. So, that must be one hell of a diff, or maybe it's the CF driveshaft that eats up that 20 extra horsepower :rolleyes:

Want to know what's drastic, a drastically good, the fact that the 2ZZ works in the Elise. The Renesis won't without a lot of custom fabrication. It would be VERY difficult to try to mate the Renesis up to the transaxle of the Elise. Also, proper cooling might be a bit of an issue with the configuration of the Elise. But, we'll never know because no one will ever be stupid enough to even try making a Renesis work in an Elise.


P.S. No 903563, that weight is for fully dressed, but dry, just like the 130kg per Mazda.

1. Poorcollegekid is right, there is no standard way of measuring engine weight. But again, I bet the 253 pounds quoted for a 2ZZ is the undressed dry weight (vs. 180 dry and undressed for the renesis). Neither one of us has proof, don’t act like you do.

2. You may think Mazda shouldn’t bother building the renesis, so what? 90% of people on this site think they should.

3. It’s more like a 20hp average advantage, not small on 1900 pounds. Actually, dyno issues aside, I never seen a stock Elise measured at more the 166hp, but we’ve seen a stock renesis show close to 200hp.

4. Ask Car & Driver about the 2ZZ problems;
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/13334/2004-lotus-elise.html

5. Yeah, as if gas mileage is such a popular discussion on Lotus forums. :uhh:

6. A higher redline, a smoother engine, a more linear power curve is ALWAYS preferred, not to mention more torque and hp – 5 things the renesis has all over the 2ZZ.

7. You not giving the renesis any props doesn’t do much for your credibility, maybe the reason why most here don’t even bother to challenge you...actually why do I care???
Also, remember the Lotus is not without flaws handling wise, actually it was the 2nd hardest car to drive of the eight sportscars that Motortrend recently tested, with no shortage of comments about its twitchy back end. No surprise the Porsches won that tests with their flat sixes…oh, but engine configuration has little to no bearing on handling dynamics, so says you.

8. The rotary actually comes up often on Lotus forums, several suggesting it would be the better engine, though several others suggesting it wouldn’t work including my fav. who said the iron rotary weighs “483 pounds” – proving again that for every reasonably intelligent guy there’s 20 retards in close proximity.

That’s it for me.

1.) A completely assembled 2ZZ-GE including the transaxle weighs in at 386 lbs. How much does a 4 cylinder Toyota (or even a Honda/GM) transaxle weigh? Anyone know? Edit: Link. (http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29362&page=4)

3.) Clicky. (http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22741) They range from the low 160s to just over 170 rwhp, for the most part. No big surprises there.

5.) Surprisingly enough, it is. (http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8302) For the most part, it seems that they're quite happy that their cars achieve decent gas mileage relative to others of equivalent performance, even at the track. It's not a huge topic of conversation, but it is something that's mentioned every so often.

7.) One of the Elise's "problems" is that it has a very substantial weight bias to the rear. A Renesis, being more compact than the 2ZZ, would be mounted closer to the rear of the car, increasing this rear bias and increasing the "twitchiness" that you mentioned. This actually has come up over there when engine swaps are discussed, how a slightly larger engine that mounts slightly more forward in the engine bay may be a side benefit of some engine swaps.

The 911 was horrendously twitchy and difficult to drive until more recent iterations, and it is still not quite as stable or predictable as a front or mid-engined car. However, this is not due to engine design or cylinder layout, but rather it's location in the chassis of the vehicle. Even if the car had a I6, or I4/F4, or V8, its handling characteristics would not greatly change assuming engine weight and Cg stayed about the same. Even an unbalanced design like an I4 doesn't run rough enough to affect the motions of a 2000lb vehicle. So, I'm not sure what kind of point you were trying to make with that comment...

8.) Very true, it's debated both here and there, with some people coming down on either side. I do believe that a 13B-REW was quite a porker of an engine (somewhere north of 400lbs), which might be what they're thinking of.

1.) A completely assembled 2ZZ-GE including the transaxle weighs in at 386 lbs. How much does a 4 cylinder Toyota (or even a Honda/GM) transaxle weigh? Anyone know? Edit: Link. (http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29362&page=4)

3.) Clicky. (http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22741) They range from the low 160s to just over 170 rwhp, for the most part. No big surprises there.

5.) Surprisingly enough, it is. (http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8302) For the most part, it seems that they're quite happy that their cars achieve decent gas mileage relative to others of equivalent performance, even at the track. It's not a huge topic of conversation, but it is something that's mentioned every so often.

7.) One of the Elise's "problems" is that it has a very substantial weight bias to the rear. A Renesis, being more compact than the 2ZZ, would be mounted closer to the rear of the car, increasing this rear bias and increasing the "twitchiness" that you mentioned. This actually has come up over there when engine swaps are discussed, how a slightly larger engine that mounts slightly more forward in the engine bay may be a side benefit of some engine swaps.

The 911 was horrendously twitchy and difficult to drive until more recent iterations, and it is still not quite as stable or predictable as a front or mid-engined car. However, this is not due to engine design or cylinder layout, but rather it's location in the chassis of the vehicle. Even if the car had a I6, or I4/F4, or V8, its handling characteristics would not greatly change assuming engine weight and Cg stayed about the same. Even an unbalanced design like an I4 doesn't run rough enough to affect the motions of a 2000lb vehicle. So, I'm not sure what kind of point you were trying to make with that comment...

8.) Very true, it's debated both here and there, with some people coming down on either side. I do believe that a 13B-REW was quite a porker of an engine (somewhere north of 400lbs), which might be what they're thinking of.

8.) It's clear what most of them really want besides the 2ZZ is the K20A. Yeah, the rotary comes up, but I guarantee you a poll would show that most of them don't want to deal with the rotary and don't think the postitives outweigh the negatives. When the roatary comes up it's usually some noob bringing it up and then the guys that know what they're talking about point out why it's not worth the hassle.

I have an Elise but instead of changing it over to a Renesis, I opted for putting a turbo on it and not having to change the transaxle and engine.. Hewland transaxles have to have the ring and pinion changed out - at the most - every 3000 miles!

I have a Renesis in my other car, clearly, a much faster car, but at a price. It requires a lot more maintainence but is well worth it.

The Diasio D962-R is so much faster than anything else out there that it's ridiculous. We humble 911 GT3 and RSR's and Radical's are no match. The only cars that are competitive at our home track are a ProMazda and an unrestricted C6-R World Challenge car.

The Renesis is a real work horse and so far has been fairly reliable. I had it gone through by A-Spec and they did a great job. I highly recommend them if you need a good shop. Pineapple Racing is another good engine builder.

The Elise has been reliable once I got it sorted. I'm pushing 10# boost with 325 HP at the crank with a full Carbon Fiber body!

8.) It's clear what most of them really want besides the 2ZZ is the K20A. Yeah, the rotary comes up, but I guarantee you a poll would show that most of them don't want to deal with the rotary and don't think the postitives outweigh the negatives. When the roatary comes up it's usually some noob bringing it up and then the guys that know what they're talking about point out why it's not worth the hassle.

The K20 offers similar power potential when compared to a rotary with better gas mileage, less maintenance, and much, much easier installation. If money and/or time were factors, the Honda engine would be a much better swap. However, a lot of those engine swap discussions end when the person realizes that modifying the 2ZZ is still the easiest, cheapest option for most power levels.

I have an Elise but instead of changing it over to a Renesis, I opted for putting a turbo on it and not having to change the transaxle and engine.. Hewland transaxles have to have the ring and pinion changed out - at the most - every 3000 miles!

I have a Renesis in my other car, clearly, a much faster car, but at a price. It requires a lot more maintainence but is well worth it.

The Diasio D962-R is so much faster than anything else out there that it's ridiculous. We humble 911 GT3 and RSR's and Radical's are no match. The only cars that are competitive at our home track are a ProMazda and an unrestricted C6-R World Challenge car.

The Renesis is a real work horse and so far has been fairly reliable. I had it gone through by A-Spec and they did a great job. I highly recommend them if you need a good shop. Pineapple Racing is another good engine builder.

The Elise has been reliable once I got it sorted. I'm pushing 10# boost with 325 HP at the crank with a full Carbon Fiber body!

Awesome car. How much weight were you able to drop off?

Awesome car. How much weight were you able to drop off?

Lotus is 1620# with full tank of fuel. It has no AC or heat, no side windows and no air bags. Seats changed out to Caterham. Ohlins coil overs and Ikeya sequential shifter conversions added.

The Diasio is 1300 #

I don't have a problem with the SAE testing, nor did I the old testing. The current system is still far from perfect though. If you honestly think on average the F22C is making only 5hp more than the Renesis you're a fool. FYI, the tranny in the RX-8and S2000 are made by the same people and are the same unit. So, that must be one hell of a diff, or maybe it's the CF driveshaft that eats up that 20 extra horsepower :rolleyes:

Want to know what's drastic, a drastically good, the fact that the 2ZZ works in the Elise. The Renesis won't without a lot of custom fabrication. It would be VERY difficult to try to mate the Renesis up to the transaxle of the Elise. Also, proper cooling might be a bit of an issue with the configuration of the Elise. But, we'll never know because no one will ever be stupid enough to even try making a Renesis work in an Elise.


P.S. No 903563, that weight is for fully dressed, but dry, just like the 130kg per Mazda.

I appreciate you calling me a fool in a discussion of things technical regarding a hypothetical that I could give a damn about (Whether a rotary Elise makes sense) but I have seen more than one Renesis on an engine dyno, have you? I'm aware of the multiple vehicles that Aisin makes gearboxes for, does that make them the same? Even amongst same types there are huge differences. I've dealt with dozens of RX8 diffs and gearboxes and the RX8 diff is considerably bigger than the S2000's.

You're a rather sharp cat and I would like to retain some respect for you but please keep it technical and understand that you don't have the monopoly on automotive facts.

I'm not your average internet guy and I don't pull my info out of thin air (Or other places).

Seal.

^^^^^

big :)

beers :beer:

I appreciate you calling me a fool in a discussion of things technical regarding a hypothetical that I could give a damn about (Whether a rotary Elise makes sense) but I have seen more than one Renesis on an engine dyno, have you? I'm aware of the multiple vehicles that Aisin makes gearboxes for, does that make them the same? Even amongst same types there are huge differences. I've dealt with dozens of RX8 diffs and gearboxes and the RX8 diff is considerably bigger than the S2000's.

You're a rather sharp cat and I would like to retain some respect for you but please keep it technical and understand that you don't have the monopoly on automotive facts.

I'm not your average internet guy and I don't pull my info out of thin air (Or other places).

Seal.

C'mon, don't get all dramatic on me. I wasn't directly calling you a fool, I was just strongly making my point, but perhaps I snapped back as if I were talking to my buddy 9237356 and for that I'm sorry. The fact remains that the gearbox is the same other than a slight gear ratio difference. There's no way in hell the the diff leeches that much horsepower compared to a S2K diff. A strong argument could be made that the RX-8 should have less parasitic loss due to the CF driveshaft as well, so even if the diff is less efficient it's probably a wash.

The original premise of this thread was whether or not it would be difficult and was a good idea to do a Renesis swap on an Elise. When it comes down to it there's absolutely no strong argument in favor of the Renesis. It would simply be too costly and too difficult for very minimal benefits. You could have a 400hp 2ZZ in the car for cheaper than it would be to swap in a basic Renesis. There would also be far fewer concerns due to the cooling and transaxle issues. It would be cheaper to convert the Elise to FWD and put the Renesis in it. That would be loads of fun...:uhh:

C'mon, don't get all dramatic on me. I wasn't directly calling you a fool, I was just strongly making my point, but perhaps I snapped back as if I were talking to my buddy 9237356 and for that I'm sorry. The fact remains that the gearbox is the same other than a slight gear ratio difference. There's no way in hell the the diff leeches that much horsepower compared to a S2K diff. A strong argument could be made that the RX-8 should have less parasitic loss due to the CF driveshaft as well, so even if the diff is less efficient it's probably a wash.

The original premise of this thread was whether or not it would be difficult and was a good idea to do a Renesis swap on an Elise. When it comes down to it there's absolutely no strong argument in favor of the Renesis. It would simply be too costly and too difficult for very minimal benefits. You could have a 400hp 2ZZ in the car for cheaper than it would be to swap in a basic Renesis. There would also be far fewer concerns due to the cooling and transaxle issues. It would be cheaper to convert the Elise to FWD and put the Renesis in it. That would be loads of fun...:uhh:

I'm going to stand and defend, not myself but the Renesis. You are convinced that it isn't as powerful as I'm saying it is. Hopefully someone will put an S2K engine in an RX8 at some point for you to see what I'm saying. It isn't all in the diff. The wheels are also amongst the differences that exist.

Seal.

1.)
7.) One of the Elise's "problems" is that it has a very substantial weight bias to the rear. A Renesis, being more compact than the 2ZZ, would be mounted closer to the rear of the car, increasing this rear bias and increasing the "twitchiness" that you mentioned. This actually has come up over there when engine swaps are discussed, how a slightly larger engine that mounts slightly more forward in the engine bay may be a side benefit of some engine swaps.

The 911 was horrendously twitchy and difficult to drive until more recent iterations, and it is still not quite as stable or predictable as a front or mid-engined car. However, this is not due to engine design or cylinder layout, but rather it's location in the chassis of the vehicle. Even if the car had a I6, or I4/F4, or V8, its handling characteristics would not greatly change assuming engine weight and Cg stayed about the same. Even an unbalanced design like an I4 doesn't run rough enough to affect the motions of a 2000lb vehicle. So, I'm not sure what kind of point you were trying to make with that comment...


Point 1: That’s a good point, though its lower CG may offset any effect. Regardless I think we all already agreed that the cost vs. benefits to swap engines on an existing Elise isn’t there. But the fact remains that if Lotus designed the Elise with a rotary from scratch, obviously the smaller engine would allow the mounting points for the tranny and all to be closer to the center of the car, reducing the weight bias to the rear and positively affecting the GC and roll center.

Point 2: No question the placement of an engine has the most direct correlation to the handling of a vehicle, as does a million other things. But so does its configuration, a 911 wouldn’t be such a great handling car with a rear engine layout if it were a V8, which was my point. My BMW flat twin bike is a perfect example, a heavy bike that handles beautifully. If I swaped a conventional V-twin or upright 4, it would be a pig.

Your other point: I think I get what you were getting at with the forces different engines can extract on a chassis - the same forces that will get a 600cc bike to always turn in better than 1000cc, even if they weighed the same and had identical chassis specs. How this all affects car engines and handling, I don’t think anyone here can talk to it with any merit.

I think a cool proyect that woul cost 1/4 of the elise is a 2006 mx-5, get some carbon fiber doors and trunk, some redesign carbon fiber fenders and bumpers that look mnore agresive, some light weight wheels, and drop a renesis in it

get it as close to 2000 lbs as posible and 250 hp