i have two sparco harnesses, and i am really wanting to install them in the 8,i was going to bolt them straight to the frame, i was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts/comments/sugesstions, on if im doing this wrong or if they have another idea etc......

thanks!

andrew

are we talking like a 4 point-5point?

If so I dont see any reason why you cant put them under the original spots on the floor for the original belts also. I did this in my FD, granted I dont play with RX8s much so I can say for sure, but its something to look into vise drilling or something like that.

JT

Where are you planning on mounting the shoulder harnesses?

---jps

In our experience with racing harness, we usually use Takata harnesses and they come with eye bolts to replace the stock seat bracket bolts and the harnesses hook into the eye bolts. The shoulder straps hook into the back seats. Here's some pics.

http://www.vividracing.com/evo/images/takata2.gifhttp://www.vividracing.com/evo/images/takata3.gifhttp://www.vividracing.com/evo/images/takata1.gif

enjoy!

Originally posted by VividRacing.com
The shoulder straps hook into the back seats.Please tell me I'm not seeing the shoulder belts anchored to the floor. Shoulder belts should never be mounted more than 45 degrees below the horizontal - any lower and they are more of a danger than a restraint in an accident.

i am very confused in this subject.....i am planning on getting a shop to do them for me, i just kinda want to have a small idea of what im talking about to make sure they are doing the job right, i have never had harnesses in any of my cars before

but i understand you eccles when the shoulder strap need to be mounted 45 degrees below the horizontal, that seems logical

andrew,

Originally posted by panda
...but i understand you eccles when the shoulder strap need to be mounted 45 degrees below the horizontal, that seems logical... Actually, the rule is that is should be 45 degrees or less from horizontal. You also need to mount the belts with grade 8 hardware to proper locations with appropriate backing plates.

---jps

Originally posted by Sputnik
Actually, the rule is that is should be 45 degrees or less from horizontal. You also need to mount the belts with grade 8 hardware to proper locations with appropriate backing plates.

---jps

...so he's saying that to do it correctly, you're gonna have to muss-up your interior; SAFE racing harnesses are NOT just a cosmetic upgrade.

on that note, are you sure that you'd want to be driving in a car that doesn't have roll cage, as those 4 or 5 point harnesses are going to keep you pinned in your seat whether that's a good thing or not (as the roof come down around your head, literally)??

i want the harnesses for added safety, the look is great as well but i think the added safety is a good idea.........
if they are attached to the seat mountings or the frame of the car, should they not be quite safe??, correct me if im wrong though:)


andrew

Using the stock mounts for the lap belts is the best idea, because they are already of a proper grade, and the chassis has the appropriate strength at those locations.

Where-ever you make new mounts, for the shoulder or anti-sub belts, you need to make sure that they are also supported properly, otherwise they will literally rip out at the worst time.

What Wakeech was referring to is if you have a set of harnesses properly mounted, your body is locked into the upright position. If the car rolls over and the roof caves in, the only flexible part of your body is your neck (because the rest of your body is locked in by the harness), and it will take the brunt of the impact. If you are wearing a stock seatbelt in the same situation, the stock seatlbelt will allow all of your body to shift and give under the impact, so your neck isn't taking as much of the force. This doesn't mean that you're guaranteed to walk away from such a roll, but there is a danger of hurting your neck much much worse with a harness.

The other reason why a roll-bar or roll-cage is a good idea with harnesses is that it makes a very good mounting point for a harness bar. A harness bar will run horizontally behind the front seats at a proper height for mounting shoulder belts, and at a proper strength. Like the harnesses, they have to be designed and installed properly too.

Another thing to consider about harnesses is that when they are adjusted properly, you are locked in that upright position, and you cannot lean forward to reach some of the controls. Things like turn signals and gear shifts are always within that close of a reach, but depending on the car, things like lights or fog-lights, mirrors, radio controls, climate controls, etc., might be out of reach. While this is not a safety issue, it is an annoyance. And some people tend to leave their harnesses slack enough that they can reach those things, which renders the harnesses less effective and maybe harmful. And don't forget, when you have harnesses adjusted properly, it is harder to check blind spots, and very difficult to turn to the rear when going in reverse.

---jps

that is a lot to think about sputnik, thankyou......
i am going to get them installed, but i am thinking about getting the company to keep my seat belts in there for the time being, if they can, so that i can use the belts if they become an inconvience, i thought they would be safer but maybe they are not going to be?

what do yall think?? harnesses, safer or less safe than a converntional seatbelt?



andrew

Wow, had no idea I'd stirr up such a debate. As far as the location of the anchoring point, the pic may be a bit misleading. We removed the back seat to and mounted them with the supplied hardware inbetween the upper and lower sections of the back seat.

http://www.vividracing.com/evo/images/takata2.gif


Check it out http://www.vividracing.com/main/8stage9.php

BTW, the mounting points are what is recomended in the instructions and this is how our track instructors mount them in thier streat/track cars. As long as your breaking the 45 deg plane your fine. We've raced with them and can stand behind Takata's product.
As for the saftey factor, seat belts are fine for day to day driving and do an adiquate job but are limited when it comes to performance and effeciency of protection. In fact, harnesses in most cases are even faster to get out of if an emergency because of the central locking cam.

Originally posted by VividRacing.com
We removed the back seat to and mounted them with the supplied hardware inbetween the upper and lower sections of the back seat.

BTW, the mounting points are what is recomended in the instructions and this is how our track instructors mount them in thier streat/track cars.I don't want to labour the point, but I feel I must reiterate the safety issue. The problem with mounting the shoulder straps too low has to do with simple geometry - the restraining force provided by the shoulder belts (which I'll call the "pull" for the sake of simplicity) comprises two vectors: horizontal and vertical.* The horizontal pull is what keeps your shoulders back in the seat - it's the pull you want. The further you mount the belts from the horizontal, the less pull they have in this direction.
Conversely as the horizontal pull vector decreases, the vertical vector increases. This is pull you don't want, because it's directed downwards on your shoulders, with the possibility of spinal compression damage in an accident.Now in a car such as the Evo, where the seats are designed with shoulder harness holes, it's possible that the seat may protect the wearer from the vertical pull of incorrectly-mounted shoulder straps, but it cannot undo the fact that the available pull in the direction you need it, has been greatly reduced.

I guess it's like the old saying "If you have a ten-dollar head, use a ten-dollar helmet." This is safety equipment and safety should be the primary concern at all times. Any time you compromise functionality for the sake of aesthetics, convenience, or ease of installation, you're making a potentially life-altering decision. In the end, it's your decision - I just ask that you be cogniscent of the potential repercussions.

(*)There's a third vector - lateral - which comes into play as you move the rear mounts away from a line directly dehind the driver, but I omitted it from this discussion for the sake of simplicity.

well i will hopefully have them installled by friday/saturday....
so i will post pics etc.... when i am done.....


andrew

All I have to say is, they hold me in just fine. No saftey comprimised. If you've never sat in a harness fully straped in while being rocketed around the track then I could see how you would be skeptical.

Originally posted by VividRacing.com
If you've never sat in a harness fully straped in while being rocketed around the track then I could see how you would be skeptical. And unless you've seen a race car after a major wreck, and seen how much the belts stretch and the mounting points deform, I can see how you would be skeptical.

I've been driving timed laps and wheel-to-wheel racing since I bought my first RX-3 back in the late 80's, and all my race cars had full 5-point harnesses, so I'm quite familiar with their comfort and usage.

I was also a scrutineer (technical and safety inspector) for the Confederation of Australian Motor Sport for several years, so I'm also quite familiar with their need for proper mounting.

There's a world of difference between being held into your seat at loads of less than 1G, and being kept in that seat when you encounter the 20-40G decelleration of even a minor accident. (Crash recorders in INDY cars have seen over 100 G's.)

I don't want to turn this into a dick-sizing contest, but I do know what I'm talking about. A car with belts mounted below 45° would not have been allowed on the track on my beat.

Originally posted by VividRacing.com
All I have to say is, they hold me in just fine. No saftey comprimised. If you've never sat in a harness fully straped in while being rocketed around the track then I could see how you would be skeptical.
The point of a four- or five-point harness is to keep you secure in the seat during an accident. Saying the mounting points you have keep you secure while driving has nothing to do with whether they'll keep you secure during a crash.

SCCA recently had an in-depth article regarding this issue and their conclusion is the shoulder belt should not be steeper than a 45 degree angle from the horizontal plane. You can also see this link (http://www.timskelton.com/lightning/race_prep/safety/safety.htm) for rules from other sanctioning bodies.
________
CHRISTIANITY DICUSSION (http://www.religionboard.org/christianity/)

Originally posted by PUR NRG
The point of a four- or five-point harness is to keep you secure in the seat during an accident.Of course, the very fact that this thread is in the "Appearance/Body Kits" forum supports the contention that most folks who install harnesses see them primarily as a cosmetic upgrade and are more concerned with form than function.

Is there anyway to put in harness and save teh backseats? (thinking maybe baby seat mounts in back? (NO?) Any ideas i MSUT have harnesses with new seats... i slide too easily

I have the SPARCO 3" 4pt harness in my car. The shoulder belts are clipped into the child safety system at the back of the seat (<= 45°) The lap belt is clipped to the factory seat mounting bolts on the floor. The bolts had eye bolts welded on to them.

I do not recommend this set up for road racing (nor any 4pt belt, they can allow you to submarine). This set up is used for AutoX (lower speed, not an excuse but they really hold you in ;) ).

Pictures on request :cool:

it would be for Autocross THANKS ALOT! got pics!?

I snap some tomorrow and post them

Thanks

ok, here are the pix...

First one shows the install using the child latch system

Second is a close up

Third shows the angle relative to the seat back

Fourth is a crappy close up of the left side bolt. This one holds the "seat belt rail" in place.

Fifth is a close up of the right side bolt that holds the seat down.

Both are covered by plastic

Last one shows the view from the front.


I'm too lazy to remove the belts and put them on between autoX's (even though I can) so I just swing them over and put the pads on the back side :D






•REMEMBER•
Under no circumstances should this set up be used on the street. A 4pt belt can allow you to submarine, and even though it may (or may not) be safer than the OEM 3pt belt, Insurance companies may decline you if you are not wearing OEM belts.

you sed no street use...ok i got that, However i DOES supply the hold for autoX correct i mean SUbSTANTIALLY like REALLY happy like right?

oh yeah! :D

Night & Day difference...

...you can feel every little twitch and wriggle the car is making. :cool:

Well thank you very much for your posting...it makes me happy...im gonan go but takata harnesses now...
and later some recaro's (only one if i that's all that i can afford)

if you are autoxing you may want to check the rule book before you switch out the seats :rolleyes:

Oh?
Alright i will (im JUST getting started) i still gotta get my helmet. My location sucks we got ONE place to race and it's WAY out in the country. Otherwise i'd started sooner and practiced all the time...and i'd know all the rules

well here's some friendly advice for you before you go and spend money.

Your biggest improvement on the car is tires followed by a front sway bar, but before any of that pick up a rule book (or borrow one from someone) and read through it. Some mods are ok even in stock class and some can throw you into modified.

Lastly, there is NO mod that will make you faster than seat time ;)

Lastly, there is NO mod that will make you faster than seat time ;)

except decals...lots and lots of decals...decals everywhere...even put decals on the decals!

anyhow, Alex where did you get your harness?

lol :D

Dynamic Turbo, there is a link in my sig ;)

Umm not to be a downer BUt isnt removing the back seats extremly bad for the car involving structual basis and it is more twistable. I forgot what its called but you lose its structual integrity when u remove those rear seats.

who removed the back seat? :confused:



Edit: Nevermind... Just reread the thread :o

Interesting. The Dynamic Turbo website didn't list an exact fitment for the RX-8. As long as you know this harness setup is not crashworthy and only intended to keep you in place for something like autocross then it sounds worthwhile. I have a similar Schroth setup for my BMW that uses the OEM clips on one side and extra harness clips that use the stock anchor bolts on the other.

For this setup, did you add new anchor bolts or are you just using the stock ones? Which part number is it and were any accessory items required as well?
________
Replays de starcraft2 (http://screplays.com)

I'm using two 3/8" Quick Links to attach on the child tethers in the back seat. This makes it much easier to attach and detach

http://www.imperialinc.com/items.asp?item=0247780

I am using the factory Grade 8 bolts and welding a 3/8" eye bolt to the top of the heads.

http://www.imperialinc.com/items.asp?item=0443420

The Sparco Belt is, 2" (just noticed I said 3"):

http://www.sparcousa.com/pharness_tuning.asp?id=401

Like you said, it's not crashworthy but keeps your butt from sliding all over the place ;)

you do the welding yourself? cuz that's not something that is in my skill bag...hell, lately i'm wondering if anything is in my skill bag anymore, the way i screwed up the install of my sway bars :D

No way! :D

I had the guys at Dynamic do the welding for me. :cool:


...just make sure you take the bolts out of the car before you weld ;)

wait...so ...is yor seat like permanantly in there now, it looks like you welded the right side of the seat DOWN b/c of that bolt?

no no...

The Eye Bolt is welded to the top of the factory bolt and requires an open ended wrench to remove it ;)

Oh cool...i liek that...so is taht really stable? soudns a lil iffy even for autocross..

look at the specs on the hardware...

...I seriously doubt it will take a 10g hit, but if you are doing anywhere near that in Solo2 your SSS is not doing their job.

look at the specs on the hardware...

...I seriously doubt it will take a 10g hit, but if you are doing anywhere near that in Solo2 your SSS is not doing their job.

for real...

The eyebolts that come with the Prodrive/Sabelt hardware simply replace the stock hardware at the anchor points for both the front lap belts as well as the stock anchors for the rear belts. In addition to the convenience of quick release, a great thing about camlock harnesses is that when I'm doing daily driving, I can simply unlock the shoulder and lap belts, stow them away easily, and pretend they were never there...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/shawrf1/rx8/prodrive.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v189/shawrf1/rx8/Resizeofrx8.jpg

winbluerx8sport: if it's quick access to the back seat you're looking for, look at a 4x3 harness with push-button release like Willans' or Sparco's double-buckle system. These are usually the 2"-type, and IMO, they're don't restrain any less than the 3" variety. Or am I mistaken and you're looking for a harness that you can use WHILE the baby's in the back seat? Hope you're not planning on doing aggressive driving with baby on board!

http://sportscar-parts.com/graphics/00000001/SP4608.jpg

http://www.speedoptions.com/features/cars/72/pic65.jpg

Thank you VERY much for the info. shawrf1. i am very pleased and NO ther is no baby on board...

Hi,

The attached link is an excellent plain english description of how your harness system works in real life in a race car. The author examines a friends sports 1300 accident and why the harness system had failed the driver (.... or did the driver fail the harness system?)

http://corner-carvers.com/wiki/index.php?Notes%20on%20Race%20Car%20Harnesses

Anyway, if you intend to buy a harness to save your life then its worth a read.

I'm voting with Eccles by the way.

have fun

Andrew

Just going to weigh in on this... everything everyone said regarding using the use of the belts on the road, on a road course, (anyone rally?) holds true. Do it right the 1st time.

However, there's one exception being auto-x. I know most of you here know auto-x where speeds should never be above 60-65mph, and the course designed as to never be anywhere near any solid, immovable objects (SCCA anyways). In the case of auto-x, bets like these are just tool to just hold you up while cornering. Not a safety device.

With the reports by the NHTSA of the 8 being the least likely to roll over.... I don't really see it, in the case of auto-x, that big a deal to mount the belts.

There's another route too.... instead of going with a 3/4/5 pt harness JUST for auto-x...

http://www.chasecam.com/cg-lock.htm

Great reviews on the product and does well. :)

Just another option, and you can use it on the street too.

There's another route too.... instead of going with a 3/4/5 pt harness JUST for auto-x...

http://www.chasecam.com/cg-lock.htm

Great reviews on the product and does well. :)

Just another option, and you can use it on the street too.

The CG-Lock can't be used without modification in the RX-8.

This thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=33593) has some info and Brian can probably say more about it if he's following this thread.

Here's brians post... http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=505810&postcount=8

Can't find anything else that says a CG-Lock wouldn't fit.

--KC

The CG-Lock works great, but there are a few gotchas.

Check out the original thread (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=33593&highlight=cg-lock) I posted on the subject for more details.

BTW, anyone in the DC/Baltimore area that wants to see how it fits in an RX-8, just let me know.

Brian

Hi there!

We are a group of French 8 owners ( rx8france.com (http://www.rx8france.com) ) and we're very interested in adding a harness to the 8! I've already seen some great things concerning this but i'm still wondering how you manage to attach the harness to the front seat ( left and right )?

Do you have any infos or photos about this? Thx a lot! ;)

Ben / f1clc

Edit: there's indeed a picture in this thread concerning my question but it sounds a bit strange to me! :confused:
The harness is attached behind the front seat? :confused:
I wish i could attach it on each sides but i'm aware there's not much space by there! :mad:

_

Any chance you used to play hyperiums? ;)

Sry but i don't understand what you mean, Alex!

I'm using two 3/8" Quick Links to attach on the child tethers in the back seat. This makes it much easier to attach and detach

http://www.imperialinc.com/items.asp?item=0247780

I am using the factory Grade 8 bolts and welding a 3/8" eye bolt to the top of the heads.

http://www.imperialinc.com/items.asp?item=0443420

The Sparco Belt is, 2" (just noticed I said 3"):

http://www.sparcousa.com/pharness_tuning.asp?id=401

Like you said, it's not crashworthy but keeps your butt from sliding all over the place ;)


sorry, about the left and right side where you mounted the side belts, did you have to drill or remove something? is there a hole that exists there before that you can screw into at the base of the seats? Thanks!

No, I there are two plastic covers behind the seat. One is where the Seatbelt Rail is mounted (left side next to door), the other is where the seat is mounted (right side). Both plastic covers hide these bolts. To these I had eyebolts (more like eye since I cut off the bolt part) welded to the heads.

I see, so you just pry off the plastic covers eh?
cool thanks for the info!

oui, aussi facile que cela
;)

oui, aussi facile que cela
;)

Hi,
Do you speak french?
I'm Leo another RX-8 french owner interested by installing harness in my car.
May I ask you some questions in French?

Bye

Does anyone know of any harness guide bar being made for the 8?

This one is nice but they're not making it for the 8 :-(
http://www.sparcousa.com/harness_bars.asp

I probably won't use it to strap my belts on like its shown in the picture though ;-)

Does anyone know of any harness guide bar being made for the 8?

This one is nice but they're not making it for the 8 :-(
http://www.sparcousa.com/harness_bars.asp

I probably won't use it to strap my belts on like its shown in the picture though ;-)

I doubt anyone will make one for the RX-8 since we don't have B pillars to bolt them on to. The top child safety seat clip in the back seems the best logical mount point.

Is anyone using a harness with their stock seats? If so, did you run it through the rotor cutout? Is it comfortable?

I doubt anyone will make one for the RX-8 since we don't have B pillars to bolt them on to. The top child safety seat clip in the back seems the best logical mount point.

Is anyone using a harness with their stock seats? If so, did you run it through the rotor cutout? Is it comfortable?

I am also interesting in putting in a 5-point harness for track use. I emailed Mazda in regards to what strength standard the top tether of the LATCH system is and they couldn’t or didn’t want to give me that exact info. I thought that would be the case in this litigious world we live in. I did tell them my intentions and they recommended that the top LATCH point was not strong enough to provide restraint of an adult in a crash. Now while going around a track it would be fine and it is at the correct angle but when you would need it the most (a wreak) would it fail? I guess the thing that would answer that question is how much stress, pull, what ever specification they use, the top LATCH can handle as compared to a seatbelt anchor point? This has to be some standard set by the government.

I doubt anyone will make one for the RX-8 since we don't have B pillars to bolt them on to. The top child safety seat clip in the back seems the best logical mount point.

I was looking at that this weekend for my 3 point harness...

In the manual it states that its not to be used for anything other than a child seat.

However... for auto-x purposes... why not use it? The harness in auto-x isn't for safety.. it's for keeping yourself planted in your seat. Now... I don't really know how much force it can withstand when you tighten up the straps. It's made for a child and child safety seat only.... so did they make it to give way or can it break after a certain amt of force is encountered? (I would hope not...)

Will it break when tightening? Will it bend? WIll it give way 1/2 way through the run? Dunno. (But looks like a great place.. I need to see how it's secured in a little more detail.)

--kC

>I doubt anyone will make one for the RX-8 since we don't have
>B pillars to bolt them on to.

Not really. You can use the bolt for the stock seat belt which is on the virual B-pillar (on the back door) That's what I used to do on my old bimmer before. Of course you can't open the back door while you've the harness guide bar on.

And you shouldn't wrap the harness on the guide bar either. Its not strong enough in case of an accident. I used to hook the harness belts to the stock seat belt anchors at the back seat, and then use the guide bar to bring the belts up to the proper angle. That's what the guide bar is supposed to be used for in the first place.

I all have put a harness in my rx. And the best way to comply is to 1.use the rear baby anchor point as it exceeds the strength to load requiorments. If you want a 2 point rear mount system simply use the rear retractable seat belt mount point, by swaping the bolt for an eye.

This way you can click the harness out if you want to use the rear seat.

I am also interesting in putting in a 5-point harness for track use. I emailed Mazda in regards to what strength standard the top tether of the LATCH system is and they couldn’t or didn’t want to give me that exact info. I thought that would be the case in this litigious world we live in. I did tell them my intentions and they recommended that the top LATCH point was not strong enough to provide restraint of an adult in a crash. Now while going around a track it would be fine and it is at the correct angle but when you would need it the most (a wreak) would it fail? I guess the thing that would answer that question is how much stress, pull, what ever specification they use, the top LATCH can handle as compared to a seatbelt anchor point? This has to be some standard set by the government.


Highway safety/ DOT/someone in the govt should have the regulations on how strong the latch system has to be.

Highway safety/ DOT/someone in the govt should have the regulations on how strong the latch system has to be.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/rulings/UCRA-OMB-J08/FinalRule.html

There is a table of contents with working links. One of the last items is regrading the strength of the lower anchors. The actual specifications and testing proceudres are further below that (not linked from the TOC).

I all have put a harness in my rx. And the best way to comply is to 1.use the rear baby anchor point as it exceeds the strength to load requiorments. If you want a 2 point rear mount system simply use the rear retractable seat belt mount point, by swaping the bolt for an eye.

This way you can click the harness out if you want to use the rear seat.

Sounds good! :cool:
But can you use the rear seats leaving in place the eyes?
Could you post some pics? :D

From NHTSA

S9.4 Strength of the lower anchorages.

S9.4.1 When tested in accordance with S11, the lower anchorages shall not allow point X on SFAD 2 to be displaced more than 125 mm when-

(a) A force of 11,000 N is applied in a forward direction in a vertical longitudinal plane that is parallel to the vehicle's longitudinal centerline; and

(b) A force of 5,000 N is applied in a lateral direction in a vertical longitudinal plane that is 75 + 5 degrees to either side of a vertical longitudinal plane that is parallel to the vehicle's longitudinal centerline.

From NHTSA

S11. Test procedure. Each vehicle shall meet the requirements of S9.4 when tested according to the following procedures. Where a range of values is specified, the vehicle shall be able to meet the requirements at all points within the range.

(a) Forward force direction. Place SFAD 2 in the vehicle seating position and attach it to the two lower anchorages of the child restraint anchorage system. Do not attach the tether anchorage. Apply a preload force of 500 N at point X of the test device. Increase the preload pull force to a full force application of 11,000 N within 30 seconds, with an onset rate not exceeding 135,000 N per second, and maintain the 11,000 N level for 10 seconds.

(b) Lateral force direction. Place SFAD 2 in the vehicle seating position and attach it to the two lower anchorages of the child restraint anchorage system. Do not attach the tether anchorage. Apply a preload force of 500 N at point X of the test device. Increase the preload pull force to a full force application of 5,000 N within 30 seconds, with an onset rate not exceeding 135,000 N per second, and maintain the 5,000 N level for 10 seconds.



...good find Clyde :cool:

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/rulings/UCRA-OMB-J08/FinalRule.html

There is a table of contents with working links. One of the last items is regrading the strength of the lower anchors. The actual specifications and testing proceudres are further below that (not linked from the TOC).

Thanks, Damm this stuff is hard to read. I guess the next step is "5,300 N " a safe number in a crash?


S6.3 Strength requirements for tether anchorages.

S6.3.1 Subject to S6.3.2, when tested in accordance with S8--

(a) Any point on the tether anchorage must not be displaced more than 125 mm; and

(b) There shall be no complete separation of any anchorage component.

S6.3.2 In vehicles manufactured before September 1, 2004, each user-ready tether anchorage in a row of designated seating positions in a passenger car may, at the manufacturer's option (with said option selected prior to, or at the time of, certification of the vehicle), instead of complying with S6.3.1, withstand the application of a force of 5,300 N, when tested in accordance with S8.2, such that the anchorage does not release the belt strap specified in S8.2 or allow any point on the tether anchorage to be displaced more than 125 mm.

S6.3.3 In the case of a row of designated seating positions that has more than one tether anchorage, the force referred to in S6.3.1 and S6.3.2 may, at the agency's option, be applied simultaneously to each tether anchorage. However, a particular tether anchorage need not meet further requirements after the lower anchorages of the child restraint anchorage system of the designated seating position at which the tether anchorage is installed have met S9.4.

Damn, this stuff is hard to read...


The proposal would have required the same strength requirements that Canada applies now to (non-user ready) reinforced holes for tether anchorages, i.e., a 5,300 N (1,124 lb) force, attained within 30 seconds and held at the 5,300 N level for one second. This final rule has increased this to 15,000 N to reflect the use of the fixture in testing tether anchorages. In addition, the agency has determined that the 15,000 N force level is high enough to ensure that the anchorage will withstand the loads generated by children in forward-facing restraints.



So is it 15,000N or 5300N? Either way if you do simple math (not that this is the correct way...) using this info...

Canada conducted 30 mph dynamic tests of a CANFIX prototype child restraint (weighing 32 lb) using a 3-year-old (33 lb) dummy and found dynamic loads of about 3,500 N and 4,000 N on the tether anchorage (loads on the lower attachments ranged from 3,000 N to 4,000 N).

@ 30MPH a 195lb person would load the anchor 20,681N ([3500/33]*195) Now a 4 point harness has two additional load points, and the belts are designed to flex. So in an AutoX where (if the SSS is doing his job) the speeds do not normally exceed 60MPH and 45mph in a turn this system may be sufficient. That however would be up to the BOD.

On a track though... I'll repeat myself. It is NOT crashworthy.

Damn, this stuff is hard to read...



So is it 15,000N or 5300N? Either way if you do simple math (not that this is the correct way...) using this info...

@ 30MPH a 195lb person would load the anchor 20,681N ([3500/33]*195) Now a 4 point harness has two additional load points, and the belts are designed to flex. So in an AutoX where (if the SSS is doing his job) the speeds do not normally exceed 60MPH and 45mph in a turn this system may be sufficient. That however would be up to the BOD.

On a track though... I'll repeat myself. It is NOT crashworthy.
Thanks, that is the answer I was looking for and was beginning to expect. At a certain age/size a child can use the 3-point factory lap belts. There isn’t a reason to expect the car manufactures to make the LATCH system withstand the force of an adult. My application of the harness would be at the track. I have hit speeds of around 120 (@Pocono) safety is a concern. Looks like I have to wait and see what the roll bar looks like that the company below is working on.

http://www.shaneracing.com/RX8_Performance_Interior_Parts.html

Roll bar: http://www.japanparts.com/shop/shop.cgi?mode=itemlist&maker=Mazda&type_car=RX%2d8+SE3P&type_second=Handling+and+Braking&type_third=Roll+Cage%2fBars

>If you want a 2 point rear mount system simply use the rear retractable >seat belt mount point, by swaping the bolt for an eye.

That brings us back to the subject of requiring the harness guide bar in the beginning so that the belts will be at the correct angle.


>http://www.shaneracing.com/RX8_Perf...rior_Parts.html

Do they said when will it be available?

Since I seem to be in the business of resurrecting old threads this week, has anyone come up with or seen a solution to the problem of the attachment points for the shoulder harness belts? It's cold and snowy up here hence time to work on the car while I drive the truck.

Concerning VividRacing's Takata mounting pictures (post #4 in this thread), I came across this article:

http://www.triplezoom.com/news/publish/printer_110.shtml

The picture seems to imply that Mazda is using a similar mounting scheme and it sure looks like they have the shoulder belts attached directly to the lower LATCH (child seat) connectors. At least I don't see anything that looks like a guide bar behind the seat.

The roll bar does look nice (though I would have expected at least 1 diagonal brace behind the seats). Wonder how big of holes they had to drill to attached it to the frame?

AlexCisneros: Are you sure they welded the eyes to your old bolts and didn't just give you new bolts with eyes on them? I would think the heat from the welder would destroy the "grade 8" strength rating on the bolt (since the strengthening is accomplished by heat treating the steel). Grade 8 eyebolts are available, but not easy to find especially in metric threads (hint: you won't get them at Home Depot!).


Joe

I'm quite positive ;)

...I watched them do it :D

Remember that my set up is for autoX speeds. It is not safe to use at road course speeds :cool:

Hi AlexCisneros,

I have installed a harnes in my RX-8 in France, but I'm little bit stuck with right fixation point.
Could you give me the reference of the eye bolt you used for this point? http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25002&stc=1&thumb=1 (http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25002)
We are not very famillar with US units in Europe :rolleyes:

Somes pics of my installation :
http://www.rx8france.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=27568#27568
Thank you very much for the inspiration you gave me!!! :D

Merci!

Not sure if this helps

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/wescoperformance/boltkit.html

3/8 est à peu près equivilant à 10 mm

ceci est alors coupé et soudé au boulon de fabricant d'origine

vous avez utilisé monter pareil indique j'ai utilisé

mon français est très pauvre si j'espère que ceci a aidé :o

3/8 est à peu près equivilant à 10 mm
ceci est alors coupé et soudé au boulon de fabricant d'origine
You've welded an eye on the stock bolt? :eek:
Damned I'm equiped to do that...
I though you've found a 3/8" eye bolt

vous avez utilisé monter pareil indique j'ai utilisé
Yes! And thank you again for the idea!
But there is not many solution in the RX-8, not to much place to play!!!

mon français est très pauvre si j'espère que ceci a aidé :o
Don't worry about your French, I think my English not so good!!!!

I think you're both doing OK. ;)

I can read French, just have a hard time writing it. (Have a hard time with English too)

--KC

I finally found a solution with my Mazda dealer...
An old Mazda 3 stock belt attach a little bit modified!
Just hav a look there : http://www.rx8france.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=27901#27901
Thank you again for the idea, and your help!
Cheers
Louis

that's interesting! but at that angle, I would hope that it doesn't bend under load.

... but at that angle, I would hope that it doesn't bend under load.

I'm a little bit worried about it too...
I'll test it on track in two weeks (keeping stock belt on!!! ;) )
I'll let you know...

actually, when I meant under load it was in a crash scenario... I really hope you don't test that :o

Also, you should not use the harness without a rollbar if you are running on a track (or over 60mph). For AutoX or Gymkhana (sp?) they're fine (don't hold me to that).

On a track you should use the factory belt and, to hold you in, a lap belt like the one made by G-Force
http://www.gforce.com/products/restraints/images/torsoharness.jpg

http://www.gforce.com/products/restraints/torsoharness.html

actually, when I meant under load it was in a crash scenario... I really hope you don't test that :o
...


I surely do not want to test a crash!!!...

Interesting the G-Force belt :cool:

Don't worry I'm largely under the capacity of the car, and day tracks are just for fun, not for racing ;)
Thanks!

OK, here's my contribution finally:

I have a
G-Force H-Type 3" 5-point harness (http://www.gforce.com/products/harnesses/camlock/cam_htypesets.html) . I am using the main 4 belts, not the 5th crotch belt, because I am using my stock seats, not racing seats, so there is no hole in the seat for the 5th belt.

Word of adivce: Make sure your shoulder straps are long enough for this installation. Those of you who are taller might not have the same problem, but i'm only 5'-0" (female) and the first one I ordered was too short (shoulder straps adjustable to 60"), so I had to reorder one that adjusts to 80".


For clarification: I am using my belts criss-crossed. You can use them straight through or crossed, I just chose to cross them so they don't tend to bunch or anything.

DIAGRAMS WITH NOTES:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/189/458242020_7cc273238c.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/189/458256941_83b2ce9348.jpg

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/236/458242090_5fb948dbd6.jpg

For the number 1 and 2 belts, I removed the stock bolts from the stock seatbelt mounts, and replaced them with eye bolts. I'm not sure if the size is 1/2" or 3/8", but they are the same size as stock. Some harnesses come with the hardware, but I got mine at my local racing store (Dave Turner Motorsport in San Diego) and they said they were like a one-size-fits-all, that all cars use the same size sizes for seatbelt hardware. They make long and short bolts, and if I remember right, I used 2 long bolts for belts #1 & 4, and a short bolt for #2 because a long bolt doesn't fit in that location. You could just use short bolts all around.

Belt #1
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/250/458240244_b71ee7dfc6.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/212/458254929_00f065e0e0.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/251/458254719_3ebe54950f.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/226/458240390_9424978515.jpg

Belt #2
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/254/458255099_ba1e949ab1.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/172/458255201_dae3c21bef.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/176/458255365_d8e7db909d.jpg

For the number 3 bolt, the process was more difficult. The bolt here is not the same size as the rest, so I had to use a different method. I used a angled bolt end (see photo in first post), laced the belt thru it, sandwiched it between the floor and the seat bracket, and then re-attached the stock bolt.

Belt #3

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/170/458255457_488aba7009.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/253/458240834_6e3c97d32e.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/249/458240984_13fe3fc4b3.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/208/458241070_dc4c543e03.jpg


For the number 4 belt, the process was the same at the first two, simply remove the stock bolt and replace with the eye bolt, and use the snap hook to attach the belt.

Belt #4

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/233/458241162_9f984924bb.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/178/458255983_db0d6701fe.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/206/458256031_284952554b.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/239/458241430_b559d6e4e2.jpg http://farm1.static.flickr.com/217/458256235_d0ed0461d9.jpg

And just incase anyone is wondering, no I don't use them during daily driving. I just throw them back behind the seats (as shown), clip them together so they stay put, and use my stock belt. :)

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/458256313_ee3465c204.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/245/458241590_67a907a846.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/169/458256441_55894d1dc4.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/205/458256529_b844b27fea.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/250/458241794_9d93e0050b.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/180/458241874_c7751e1549.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/207/458241926_19dce8a620.jpg

Also worth noting: You can re-install the rear seat again once they are in. You just have to massage it in real well, I didn't think it would fit at first, but I got it after I fought with it (you have to unhook #1 & #2 from the eye bolts first).

ENJOY!

....
Also worth noting: You cannot re-install the rear seat again once they are in. Even if you unhook the #1 and 2 belts from the eye-hooks, the bolts stick up too far for the seat cushion to be able to hook into the latch and sit flush again.
...

Yes you can!
I do the same like you to fix my rear belts, and I'm able to put the rear seat in place leaving the eye-hooks.
My english vocabulary is a little bit poor, to explain you correctly, sorry.
I'm trying :
Put the rear seat with angle of quite 45°, and push it to pass the rear piece of metal of the rear seat beyind the back of the seat. Help pushing with your second underneath. If you can push the rear seat at bottom, it ok!!!
A friend of mine do exactly the same, so it's possible ;o)

If you really don't understand what I mean, let me know and I will post some pics!
Sometimes pics or drawing are better than words...!!!

Here my the post (http://www.rx8france.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=27568#27568) on our French RX-8 forum, in french of course...

Maybe I just wasn't forcing it enough. =\ Thanks for the input!

holy back from the dead posts batman!

It was by request. :)

Your pics aren't working and would be much appreciated.

Oh, yeah I think I accidentally deleted them from their host location, so let me fix them tonight (I'm at school now, pics are on the home PC). oops!

There you have it, pictures restored! =D

If you happen to roll your probably unrollable rx8....would you want to be held upright in a car without a cage?

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c328/esbmike43/10-1.jpg

and a harness bar with stock seats....ooo, hope you don't hit a wall backwards when losing control, or get rear ended by a semi at a stop sign.

That's why many organizations don't allow 4+ point w/o a rollbar

If you happen to roll your probably unrollable rx8....would you want to be held upright in a car without a cage?

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c328/esbmike43/10-1.jpg

and a harness bar with stock seats....ooo, hope you don't hit a wall backwards when losing control, or get rear ended by a semi at a stop sign.
What was the point of this post??

What was the point of this post?? This thread was about putting in a 4/5-point harness in a stock 8. Doing so without a roll bar/cage is unsafe. Your setup doesn’t have a roll bar and the angles of the shoulder straps are also unsafe. If the person in the photo had a harness they would have greater injuries than if they just used the OEM 3-point. Even people doing Auto-X get into accidents (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=104924).

And those of us who install these in our cars know the risk we are taking in doing to. Since the design of the 8 prevents the possibility of a harness bar, and the cost of a roll cage is prohibitive to those of us who track/auto-x as a hobby and still use this car as a daily drive, you make it work as best you can. I just don't see the point of coming on and flaming like he did (which from what I can see is about 90% of his posts on this board).

The only option (without adding a full roll cage) for this car is either a harness as I have it (since there is no mounting point higher up other than the baby-seat point, which from what I understand is not supposed to be used for this purpose, as you also posted on a previous page), or no harness at all, which leaves you fighting physics just to stay in your seat. I chose something that keeps me in my seat so I can concentrate on my driving, not on bracing myself in my seat. That's my choice, and I know the risks. No one teching my car for events has found cause to complain thus far, but thank you (expo) for your concern. I take it you have abandoned the idea of a harness in your car by now? :)

I take it you have abandoned the idea of a harness in your car by now? :) Yes I abandoned it, but I got as close as making a mock up harness bar out of copper pipe and taking it to a welder. Instead I use a Kirkey seat for trackdays PHOTO (http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78473)That seat holds me in like velcro.

IMO, a 4-point setup like that for autocross is fine, but I wouldn't use it for the track given the higher speeds. An 8 owner at Summit Point (Mike) has a setup I'd like: racing seats, 5-point harness and a custom harness bar. Given the slim chances of a rollover on an HDPE weekend, I'd accept that risk. (There's no way I'm putting a roll cage in my 8, unless I convert it to "real" racing some day.)

Yeah I plan to invest in a seat (this summer, once I'm done with school and actually making money), and investigate a harness bar option, but for now, this works. :dunno:

Even the post (http://www.triplezoom.com/news/publish/printer_110.shtml) of the Mazda NR-A car use the same setup for their harness (and they do have a roll cage even):
http://www.triplezoom.com/news/uploads/rx8types2.jpg

And before anyone lectures, I still KNOW it's not "safe", but just goes to show that I'm not the only one who makes-do. ;)

the picture is a toyota tundra who got hit by a crazy motorist on the freeway, causing the vehicle to roll multiple times along with a guard rail to the roof. statistically, rollovers are actually very survivable, assuming your harnessed in somehow, with OEM belts or 4/5 pt. harnesses. the part that will definitely mess you up is where you land like a pancake on your roof.

imagine if your rx8 landed square on the roof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDLNZanGATw&mode=related&search=
of course the m3 didn't but up until the point of getting launched into the air 15 ft, the situation didn't seem so bad after getting ran off the track, slowing down in a straight line and in control.

do you think your roof can take 3000 lbs coming straight down 15 feet off the ground? well, i suppose at that point it wouldn't matter what kind of restraint you use since you're without a roll cage.

you can justify your use of harnesses to "oh it's my daily driver" "oh i can't afford a roll cage" "oh i'll have more control of my car when i'm properly strapped in ". i'm just saying that while those maybe quite relevant to you, there are situations where such safety equipment can actually do more damage when not used properly. you know, an alternative view, like fox news but actually fair and balanced.

i don't see how this is flame. are you suggesting that whenever someone throws in a different view, it is flame? how do you know i don't consider your responses flame? you trying to get people's neck broken? are you saying it's ok to just hope never to be in that situation cause you assumed the risk? have no money or time to safely setup your car? it kills the practicality of a daily driver or that it's just a hobby? yeah, you're right, i am flaming. i dunno why i even wrote this. i'm just gonna get shit from mp5. but that's ok, cause i've got two words for him, "grounding kit" :bigok: (jesus christ there are mass smilies too choose from)

The purpose of this post is simply to discuss methods of installing a harness in the RX-8, so I posted pictures showing how I did my own installation, to help anyone else wishing to do the same. :wiggle:

That is all. :Peace:

The purpose of this post is simply to discuss methods of installing a harness in the RX-8, so I posted pictures showing how I did my own installation, to help anyone else wishing to do the same. :wiggle:

That is all. :Peace:
And thank you, I've been trying to figure out a way to do this. Your pics are great, need to weigh my options, I do HPDE's so I do reach higher speeds, typically about 115 on the straights. Not sure how dangerous this set up may be, I but I guess its a risk I need to think about. All in all thanks for the great info.

how fast do you think this guy was going?
http://www.thatvideosite.com/view/324.html

ooo....how about this one:
http://videos.streetfire.net/hottestvideos/5/4c4e2831-0b0c-4738-84fb-98a40048b12b.htm

on oldie:
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/c95ea3ac-ee4b-423a-9f53-991400eeede6.htm

#$#!:
http://videos.streetfire.net/hottestvideos/14/7df64c39-c0b6-4f27-9017-990100dec8ba.htm

i guess anyone can search for rollover on streetfire and get the point.

What an idiot in the bimmer, he just drove straight off the track... :pat:

don't drive it onto a track unless you're prepared to ball it up

maybe the idiot is the person who doesn't recognize what took place ... life makes idiots of us all, often many times over the years