zoned

so i went by the dealership today to pick up a couple of filters for my car and the parts/mechanic told me they dont stock them and just use ac delco because they are the same. I questioned if he was putting in the right filter and he assured me he knew what he was talking about. i think he's full of it. am i right?


also, i'm getting an intermittent clunking sound coupled with a a vibration at idle, it almost seems like a hiccup in the transmission as it makes my gear stick move when it happens. any clue as to what this could be? 09r3, 14k on the clock if it helps.

RiderCoach Lar

*DING*DING*DING* You ARE right! He IS full of it...and an absolute idiot!

Use that AC Delco oil filter on your '09 R3 and you WILL bypass that filter element and recirculate dirty oil. Stick with the RIGHT OEM filter...plenty has been posted on this subject, including THIS useful thread.

Wish I could help with the clunking sound. If it's more than the typical idle hiccup, I don't know.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

True dat! Get the 09 filter on there asap.
OD

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

How much foreign debris need be present in the S1 filter before the bypass spring is overcome by the pressure delta and the oil is no longer filtered? Please apply the same question to the S2 filter.

Based on Ash8's own information, if the operating oil pressure had any relation to the action of the bypass spring, oil filtration would cease at any engine speeds above idle.

The bypass spring is intended to activate the bypass feature when the oil filter element becomes SO clogeed that oil will not pass through it. At that point, the only thing that matters is maintaining oil circulation for the sake of the engine until the oil filter can be replaced.

So, what was REALLY changed when Mazda started using a filter with a higher bypass spring tension?

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

there end is one of the automotive "mystery's".
I know of only one oil filter that is flow tested, thats the hp racing line that Fram makes.
All the others---who knows?
And when you change the oils viscosity--was that the same viscosity that the flow test used?
I just figue that a higher opening bypass pressure will not by pass as much.
Hell to tell the truth--in changing the oil every 3K, i have never seen a true dirty filter--even with magnification. i have only seen something after I placed a magnet on it and then cut it open.
Ray,
this may be a good product to develope? A remote oil filter kit that allows the use of the HP line of oil filters?
OD

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Filtration quality and viscosity have nothing to do with one another. Neither do operating pressure and bypass ratings because both sides of the filter element are subject to the same operating pressure, EXCEPT to the extent that there is a pressure drop across the filter element due to flow reduction as a result of the filter element doing it's job.

Remember, we have a pump which creates volume/pressure on one end of the oiling circuit and a pressure regulator on the other end of that same circuit. Just like the "dead-head" fuel systems we have.

I am willing to posit the theory that only a true douchbag would even come close to having an oil filter so clogged as to activate the bypass circuit. And, since I am notoriously "lax" with my own oil changes...... if anyone around here is prone to activating the filter bypass it is likely to be me.

RiderCoach Lar

So are you saying that if you use a S1 filter (or, as originally stated, a AC Delco filter) in a S2 vehicle the only thing that will trip the bypass circuit is clogged filter media!?

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

What I am doing is encouraging people to think for a minute about how stuff works before coming to any conclusions.

Perhaps you can tell us what else WOULD trip the bypass feature in an oil filter? If it were simply oiling system operating pressure then I guess Mazmart (and many other shops) owes a lot of people the offering of a custom "high pressure oil filter", since they promote the use of high pressure regulators in their rotary engines. BTW, I have been using the Mazmart Oil Pressure Regulator for a few years and have never concerned myself with which oil or filter I use based on operating pressures (and it is said to allow pressures as high as 100 psi.). Climate, yes. Pressures, no.

ASH8

Yes,
the By Pass in any Filter is there for when filter becomes clogged, and can no longer filter engine oil (Filters are full flow types)...it is a safeguard for those "owners" who perhaps are not as fastidious as club members, or owners who skip servicing , or if a oil filter is left on for 40,000 miles....whatever.

What really changed??...well you can do the searching, it has been discussed by some.
And Pooh hoed by others.

Yes, Mazda changed OIL Pump and its OP Pressure Valve, Oil Filter, Metering Oil Pumps, Nozzles, removed rear engine By Pass Valve and its circuit, revised Oil Coolers and Supply Lines,,, that is really about all.

WHY?
Obviously the set up in S1 is slightly inadequate, perhaps they found out the S1 Oil Filter with some miles in/on it was by-passing sooner than they engineered for?, perhaps they found Apex Seals were not being lubricated correctly, so they incorporated an ALL new Oil supply circuit for seals and 2 additional nozzles.

According to Mazda's Service Highlight the Oil Circuit changed, shows all Oil flowing through Oil Filter first, with no return to sump route or oil not being filtered a possibility (like all previous rotaries) , and no rear engine by pass valve (like all previous rotaries).

I was always under the impression that an Oil Filter's By Pass rating numbers are in relation to when or once the Oil Filter cone is becoming restricted or blocked the "resistance" or pressure build up as oil will not flow through filter paper exceeds the Oil Filter Springs rating of about 11-17 PSI S1, and 20-26 PSI S2 above the Oil Pumps and Filters "normal" PSI flow rate.

So say normal oil flow pressure through oil filter is 70 PSI, once filter becomes blocked and pressure goes to say 85 PSI (in S1 case) the oil filter starts to by pass.

Which can also vary according to RPM.

But the principal is the same for any engine that uses full flow Oil Filters...like virtually all makes of cars.

ASH8

I will answer that...basically yes..

But as Charles says, well sort of, car companies and engineers design these type of things for "worse case scenario" or for owners who are totally slack..see above post.

But, having said that, one never knows when a filter goes into by pass, unless you have sensors and Oil pressure gauges that "might" show you "fluctuations"...

Are you willing to take that chance??

As I have said before Mazda changed the By Pass rating of this filter for a REASON, these are not their normal filters..they are exclusive Series 2, by part number, size, and rating.

This is the first time they have change their rotary Oil Filter for 30 years.

But hey all the experts here know more than me.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

good point Ash.

I do have to disagree on one point Ray. That is the viscosity of the oil has no affect on the rate it passes through the filter? I think that is what you were also suggesting? I may be wrong.
I contend that viscosity does have an affect of the flow rate through the filter medium. And if the medium cannot flow it freely enough then the by pass may open. For example a 50 w oil on a cold start cold morning?
Also remember its a fixed displacement pump--so the volume being pumped is dependant on rpm. What may be ok at 4K, may NOT be ok at 8K?
I freely admit that this is all conjecture. I have not seen any hard core proof of any oil filter bypass valve opening at any time. However, it does have some lodgic too it.
Does it or doesnt it? Only Mazda knows for sure and in this case I would follow their recommendations?
OD

ASH8

And I agree, I much rather be on the safe side than not.

If Mazda wanted to use an S1 filter on the S2 then they would have done so, not have an all new filter made for them, that so far only does S2 RX-8...technically.

zoned

wow, i start a simple thread and a full blown discussion breaks out! :-)

for the record, i didnt let the guy change my oil, i just went by there to order some series 2 filters for my usual mechanic ( that will let me watch him like a hawk when he touches my 8 ;-) i was just more worried about the other poor 8's driving around with sub standard filters.

my usual mazda dealership went belly up and this new dealership is a land rover/ jeep/ mazda dealership, i'm not even sure they have a qualified rotary mechanic on staff, so they aint touching **** of mine.


anyway, back to you regularly scheduled oil filter discussion, already in progress :-)

zoned

oh, yeah i didnt get any clunking today while in idle so i guess i ditched the gremlin somewhere along the way.

Mazurfer

Good thing you knew to at least question what he told you...........I think?(due to all the discussion)

Use the series two!


Yes, a rather long *** thread will ensue anytime the "O" word is used......but it's always interesting and entertaining yet strangely confusing

kenpo1441

iTrader: (1)

You can use any filter that says it works with an 09 or newer as long as you change your oil on a regular basis...the bypass only come into play if your filter is clogged.

ASH8

I am not aware of any Non Genuine (Mazda OEM) Oil Filter for the 09 or Series II, that is actually made to Series II specifications.

Every one I have investigated says it is for an 09 or 2010 RX-8 but in fact when you look into it's specifications it has a lower PSI By Pass rating, and or the Part Number given is also used on "other" Mazda models, which again is incorrect.

There is no other Oil Filter that Mazda sells (OEM) and is used on any other of their models, for the 1,000 time the OEM S2 RX-8 Oil Filter is unique only to this model, No other Mazda, Rotary or Banger.
Including Mobil 1 M1110, K&N...who says it suits, but technically it does not., size is correct, looks the same, it will install OK, but BPV rating is wrong.

YES, they will work, but as I said for those who do not change filter regularly, and or the filter paper becomes contaminated with normal crap, the much higher Oil Pump pressure and flow rate will cause the filter to by pass earlier than it normally should, as the Oil Pressure for S2's is double that of a S1 RX-8.

But hey, I would like anyone to show a link that proves my info incorrect..

So Please, show me the link that has "Any Oil Filter" to suit the RX-8 Series II with a by pass setting between 20 and 26 PSI..???...I just can't find one that will screw on correctly and is correct body size.

The OEM Genuine is the only one I can find.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

No, Denny, you misunderstand my point. If what I posted was what you thought I posted, Ash would have corrected me ( and rightly so).

I said that the filtration (verb) is wholly independent of oil viscosity. In other words, the action of the oil filter element doing it's job is not affected by the viscosity of the oil. Particles are measured in microns and those microns will or will not pass through a given filter element regardless of the oil viscosity.

I would have to be an IDIOT to assert that flow rate (or, more correctly, flow VOLUME) is not altered by oil viscosity.

In that regard, we have three data points; 1) Oil viscosity. 2) Flow volume. 3) Flow pressure.

None of these concepts are germane to this discussion.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

ahhhh s0000. agreed.
OD

HiFlite999

iTrader: (2)

The filter bypass operates on the pressure difference from one side of the filter element to the other; when that difference gets high enough, it opens. Cold, thick oil will resist going through the filter element more than warm, thin oil. I doubt (but do not know) that in a warmed-up state, with any oil that's been changed within living memory, that the bypass will open with the Series I filter, even on a Series II or high-pressure-modded Series I. However, I suspect (but do not know) that on a cold start (and especially with heavier than 5W-20 oil), the Series I filter bypass will open too soon. In any case, Mazda made an entirely new filter for a reason. Their interest in making filters is entirely different than K&N, et. al. in that it is to protect their engines from damage resulting in warranty claims, and not in making a profit from selling filters. What is exactly the point in using a non-Mazda filter? There's no H.P. gain, no mpg gain, no nothing except putting one's engine and potentially one's warranty at risk.

cajunrx8

Due to some idiot with a S2 car cranking it up stone cold and running the snot outta it they did have to raise the bypass rating.
Any oil filter will bypass if the oil is too thick and too much flow is shoved through the media, hence the idea of warming up the oil before stomping the gas.
Now why did they not just increase the surface area of the filter so the higher volume of oil is offset by the larger filter?
A bigger filter needs more room, more filter paper, more money. Instead just add a stiffer spring to set the bypass higher and ya save a couple bucks.

Just my op, yours may vary.

ASH8

Mazda did increase the surface area of the Oil Filter between 20 and 25% for the S2, it is taller than OEM S1...also higher BP as you said...the S2 Oil Filter is S2 unique.

PCM prevents WOT or stomping on the gas when engine is stone cold, for memory limit is 6500 RPM or thereabouts.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

You may be overlooking a crucial element; oil pressure is not determined by the oil pump but by the bypass spring in the pressure regulator(s), which are located at the end of the oiling circuit. Thus, potential oil pressure will be the same on both side of the filter element.

Razz1

Just because it is taller doesn't mean the filter surface area has changed.

The paper element, number of folds, and size.

Have you cut both filters open and compared.

You could be correct but have you actually examined the filters?

ASH8

Yes, and YES...