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So you think staggered tires/wheels are a great idea?

Old 02-04-2005, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by murix
And you potentially add more twitchy handling and lose some straight line stability. Sounds like a complex solution to a simple problem unless you really have a different driving style, more power, or just asthetics.

If someone tells me they did big in the rear for asthetics that is a perfectly valid reason. I am not sure why it must be justified in terms of handling. Reality is if you do not track your car I doubt you would really notice anyway as the limits are so high.
Just answering the question posed by army_rx8. Besides, if you track, you might just want 'more twitchy handling' as you call it or if you have more power, this gives a way to get it down in the straights, yet maintain some balance in the twisties. With FI coming along, this esp. begins to have more validity.
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Old 02-19-2005, 10:26 PM
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For this winter in Eastern PA, I put on 245/40/18 Blizzak MZ-03's and have been amazed at the increased handling thru the corners and over the potholes. I am thinking of installing 245/40/18 Eagle F1's on the rear and going with 225/40/18 Eagles on the front . I've read the thread but it hasn't really helped. I like to power out of the turns and mostly run on highway and the occasional twisty backroad. I want to stay with the stock rims and don't plan on adding any kits except maybe a rear stabilizer later on. I've already got the 245's for the back--what should I go with for the front??? ANY opinions will be greatly appreciated!
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Old 02-20-2005, 07:49 AM
  #53  
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the more rubber you have the more grip. period. If you can't fit the same size front to rear because of x amount of reasons and have to run staggered (assuming rears are larger) then the front will run out of grip before the rear (since there is less rubber there is less grip) and the rears will "push" the fronts. You still have more grip through a corner with a 245/275 than a 245/245. You need to adjust driving style, or alignment, or both to compensate.

The RX8 can fit a 275/275 on the stock height. change the height and the sizes possible are reduced unless bodywork is done. I had a 245/275 set up because I believed I would be getting coil over suspension (thus lowering the height) sooner than I am. Since I have re-adjusted my schedule for parts, I purchased a 275/275 set up.

get as much grip as possible. more rubber=more grip. 'nuff said
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Old 02-25-2005, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by MrWigggles
The reason I bring this up is that I have 245/40-18's on the front and 275/35-18's on the rear.
What offfset are your front and rear rims? Also, I take it that these are 18x9 and 18x10?

Thanks,

ntg-r
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Old 02-25-2005, 12:35 PM
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So, are we disagreeing with the following cars then?

SL55 - 245/285
F360 - 215/275
F430 - 225/285
DB9 - 235/275
Corvette - 235/285
M3 - 225/255
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Old 02-25-2005, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Genyosai
What offfset are your front and rear rims? Also, I take it that these are 18x9 and 18x10?

Thanks,

ntg-r
+45 offset
8.5 front
9.5 rear

Car not lowered, if I lowered it there's a good inch of clearance in the back and plenty of room up front.

I guess for autox, with a stock powered car, 275s all around would be good. For my applications (road race with a high power turbo) I prefer a slight amount of understeer at the limit (otherwise the car is pretty neutral until you push it SUPER hard) followed by the ability to control oversteer SLOWLY with more throttle application - that's why I love the rotary bodies - the progression from understeer to neutral to oversteer is nice and slow and predictable - just don't push it past the limits or you'll spin out (at least on my RX-7 . . . haven't spun the RX-8 yet).
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Old 02-25-2005, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cretinx
So, are we disagreeing with the following cars then?

SL55 - 245/285
F360 - 215/275
F430 - 225/285
DB9 - 235/275
Corvette - 235/285
M3 - 225/255
Get serious, those cars just support the discussions being made about valid reasons to run staggered wheel/tire sizes!

The SL55, DB9, Corvette, and M3 are all high-horsepower front-engine/RWD layouts (Unlike the RX-8, with only moderate power). The E46 M3, with the least power of that group, also understeers excessively, a problem that the E36 M3 (equipped with same-size tires all around) did not have.

The F360 and F430 are mid-engine with a big rear weight bias (Unlike the RX-8).

Also, note that ALL of the above were delivered from the factory with the suspensions tuned intentionally for staggered wheels/tires (unlike the RX-8).

You're planning to run FI and get big power in your RX-8, then you certainly can justify the trade-offs to install staggered wheels/tires and live with or work around the handling changes. For most people who are NOT planning to bump the power a lot, then the arguments against staggered wheels/tires are still valid and sound.

Regards,
Gordon
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Old 03-07-2005, 10:06 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Gord96BRG
Lots of people here seem to be looking to install wider tires and wider wheels at the back of their RX-8s. We have to assume that they really like the look of wider wheels and tires on the back of a vehicle, but there may also be an impression that staggered tires and wheels somehow must enhance handling? Well, the short answer is - they don't.

There was an excellent article in Sport Compact Car recently where they installed new tires and wheels on their Project 350Z part II - Balance . The 350Z from the factory comes with staggered wheels and tires - and it understeers. To achieve neutral handling and eliminate the understeer, SCC found they had to install the same size tire on the front of the 350Z as the rear, and it greatly improved the handling and balance of the car.

So how does that translate to an RX-8? Easy - if you install wider tires on the back of a stock RX-8 than you have on the front, you will transfer the handling from neutral to understeer. Lots of people will say they only drive on the street and so they don't mind - but if you enjoy the neutral balance, be aware you'll be changing it for the worse if you go staggered.

The article has some interesting comments on tires, wheels, and handling that are relevant to RX-8s and other sports cars - definitely worthwhile reading.

Regards,
Gordon
You should also add that, a stagered set would be a way of solving a case of terminal oversteer after going too radical on stiffening the rearend.
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Old 07-29-2005, 03:47 PM
  #59  
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staggered sizes can be faster.

more tire is more grip. you can adjust the under/oversteer in other ways.

with proper spring rates and bar tuning it would be hard to argue an rx8 with 245 all around is faster than one with 245 front and 275 rear. i would similarly argue one with 275 front and 245 rear will also be faster than 245 all around.

id be happy to prove it as well as argue it, and i think i might be able to prove it even without changing the bars and springs. ive clinched my championship for the season and have two events left here in san francisco region. i would be interested in trying it.

james
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Old 10-30-2005, 01:20 AM
  #60  
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You stagger the wheels/tires to fit your needs. If you want to do it because it looks good, do it. If you want to have bigger rear wheels/tires to reduce oversteer/increase understeer, do it. If you want to run wider wheels in the rear with the same rubber at all fours to reduce rear sidewall flex...do it.

The only time your really wrong when running a stagger, is when you don't have a real reason. I like Azenis Sport 205/55/16 with a 7 inch wheels in the front and 8 inch wheels in the rear (on my FC). It suits my driving and what I want the car to do. A lot of people keep talking about the "perfect" wheel setup. Everyone is going to feel different about each setup.

Last edited by ShadowX; 10-30-2005 at 01:22 AM.
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Old 01-10-2006, 12:05 AM
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Staggering is a great idea if you spend a lot of time at the track so you can tune the suspension, engine, power band. sway bars, and with some kits down force. Supercars have staggered setups because there chassis are designed with it in mind. It has to go high speed, around 185, so it needs to understeer for stability. You don't want to be fidgety when goin 190 down a straightaway. Look at the ALMS. A lot of cars are staggered because of high speed(stability), down force( example 10lbs at 10 mph goes to 500lbs at 125mph), chassis design( tube frame and rear weight bias) ect. Power is an issue but with proper tuning(LSD, Powerband, Swaybars) stagering is not needed. The simple truth is everyone and every car is different. Only going lap after lap with different setups can anything truly be determined.

I'm getting BBS RG-R 18-8.5 with Yokohama Advan 255/40 18
Stock Potenza's suck, nearly got me killed

It's a simple question with a very complicated answer

About a ALMS

Those cars make a lot of down force. Like F1 they need wide tires and wheels for support and to purposely create understeer. It's safer to just loose front grip and go on the grass then to spin out and hit other cars ala Nascar. Just too add those Nascar cars seem to me to have the same size tires all around. Throw in advanced physics and you see why those cars cost Millions. Don't even get me started about increased wheels size means having to increase Brake force and the increased grip mean greater tire wear and supspension tunning.
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Old 01-24-2006, 09:30 PM
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wider rear tires + stiffer rear swaybar
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Old 04-27-2006, 08:10 AM
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the mazdaspeed rims the new ms-01 set i believe come staggered for the rx8 --8 inch width front 9 in rear---


WHY??!! WHY MAZDASPEED?!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!
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Old 04-29-2006, 07:26 PM
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are you sure this is true? do you know the offset?
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Old 05-05-2006, 08:44 AM
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I am the new owner of an 04 and it has come with brand new nexen n3000's. They are on the original rims but are sized 245/40 -18 on all 4 corners. I will be using the car as a daily driver but will also autox several times a year. Reading your thread, should I go staggered and change the fronts to the oem of 225/45 or leave as is? I don't want to lose performance or safety.
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Old 05-05-2006, 09:09 AM
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If I may add my opinion; I would keep the same size/offset on all 4 corners because the weight distribution on the RX-8 is darn close to 50/50. With equal grip potential on all 4 corners, the handling will feel more balanced. I have the Racing Beat sways and springs on my car along with Nitto NT555's in 245/40 on the factory 18's and in hard cornering the car no longer understeers. All 4 wheels will slide equally and I can use the throttle to rotate the car pretty wasily.

CRH
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Old 06-01-2006, 06:10 PM
  #67  
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i thought staggered set up was a way to counter oversteer?
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Old 07-05-2006, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Crazy Rx-8 Driver
i thought staggered set up was a way to counter oversteer?
Yes - like elchivo said above, "Like F1 they need wide tires and wheels for support and to purposely create understeer."

Creating understeer is a way to counter oversteer.

I concur with Charles that going balanced is probably the best strategy --particularly for autocross applications but also for daily driving. It has been my experience that the RX8 in stock form likes to understeer. Going staggered would only make the problem worse.

Staggered may be good for high-torque engine situations specifically in straight lines or in sweeping turns where rear grip and speed is more critical than balance. But in autocross or any other tight-turn application, balance is the quickest way through. It also provides the best "in the twisties" experience.

I resolved my understeer "problem" by going with 245 sized tires all around, increasing the front camber to -2.0 and reducing the rear camber to -1.6 (amongst other things).

Now when I throw it around turns (go a little too fast), I get a nice balanced 4-wheel slide. That is - neither the front nor the rear slides out further than the other - they move together. To me, that's exactly where it needs to be. I simply let off the throttle a bit to let the rear take hold, the front settles nicely and it turns like its on rails without pushing (understeer) or having to countersteer any oversteer.

I plan to eventually go to 9.5" wheels all around so I can run 275s. That will give me more lateral grip for the ability to go through turns even faster without altering the balance.

Just my experience - results (and opinions) may (and will) vary.

Last edited by The Mighty Red; 07-05-2006 at 04:42 PM.
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:47 PM
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Once again this test was on a 350z....which is a completely different car all together and doesnt have the same weight ratio at all as our RX8. Think about what you drive mostly in your RWD RX8. Straight line. Staggered is a great think for our cars and MOST all rear wheel drive cars. I have actually noticed a better gas mileage per gallon in my Solstice since I went staggered.

As stated above as well. All cars are different and some actually benefit from staggered tires/wheels and some dont.
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Old 08-28-2006, 04:30 PM
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I've got 245/40s at all 4 corners right now, but since I got my turbo sorted out I have problems staying hooked up out of the hole & for the 1/2 shift (big problem) & 2/3 shift (only a problem if I'm cornering).

I really like the feel/balance of the car just the way it is, but I am starting to lean towards staggered to give me better traction & hopefully retune the suspension to retain the balance.

For N/A, I wouldn't even dream of staggered.
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Old 10-02-2006, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bigblockbeater
only two reasons for staggered wheels. straight line racing and/or looks.
Or #3..it fits your style of driving.

Its a no brainer that it changes over/understeer, but if your race class allows it, it can change how competative you are.

I -prefer- an understeering car when racing, as I prefer to rotate early and be on the go juice sooner.

The '8 is not a HP racecar, its a wonderful momentum car.
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Old 10-02-2006, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by MrWigggles
The SCC article is hardly an end-all of the debate that will never end. The staggering/no-staggering debate has reach religious proportions. Well I'm an athiest. I go by what I have experienced and what works for me.

-Mr. Wigggles

Amen.

And if you dont race..you hvae no solid opinion..and even if you do, your opinion on thi matter only fits how YOU drive YOUR car.

I remember my old FD3, when I started racing it after racing 1st gen RX7s for years, I couldnt get it to work how I wanted, then I slapped 17x10s on the rear just to have some fun and left the fronts alone. Dropped 4sec a lap within 5 laps.

This was way back on the short construction based configuration at Sears Point a few years ago where momentum and dartiness was more important that overall balance.

At Thunderhill, it was almost a wash, I was faster in some sections than others, and slower in some with either wheel combination.
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Old 10-26-2006, 04:59 PM
  #73  
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BTW...Enkie RPF1's

18 x 9.5 at 45mm offset and Falkin RT615 - 275/35/18's will work on a moderately dropped Rx-8

Good Win Racing has this setup on there Rx8

Link to Rims (17.4 lbs!!!!!)
- Enkie RPF1 - 18x9.5

Link to Forum for specifics on dropped Rx-8
- Dropped 8

Note: Will allow the wider but shorter 285/30/18s at all four corners.
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Old 12-21-2006, 04:52 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Gord96BRG
Lots of people here seem to be looking to install wider tires and wider wheels at the back of their RX-8s. We have to assume that they really like the look of wider wheels and tires on the back of a vehicle, but there may also be an impression that staggered tires and wheels somehow must enhance handling? Well, the short answer is - they don't.

There was an excellent article in Sport Compact Car recently where they installed new tires and wheels on their Project 350Z part II - Balance . The 350Z from the factory comes with staggered wheels and tires - and it understeers. To achieve neutral handling and eliminate the understeer, SCC found they had to install the same size tire on the front of the 350Z as the rear, and it greatly improved the handling and balance of the car.

So how does that translate to an RX-8? Easy - if you install wider tires on the back of a stock RX-8 than you have on the front, you will transfer the handling from neutral to understeer. Lots of people will say they only drive on the street and so they don't mind - but if you enjoy the neutral balance, be aware you'll be changing it for the worse if you go staggered.

The article has some interesting comments on tires, wheels, and handling that are relevant to RX-8s and other sports cars - definitely worthwhile reading.

Regards,
Gordon
true, yup. i have buddies that drift and where drifting before it was a house hold name. they used to stager but in revervse so that they can kick the back out easier. like fronts wider then the back. all equal is best for track and daily.
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Old 01-06-2007, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by cavemancan
BTW...Enkie RPF1's

18 x 9.5 at 45mm offset and Falkin RT615 - 275/35/18's will work on a moderately dropped Rx-8

Good Win Racing has this setup on there Rx8

Link to Rims (17.4 lbs!!!!!)
- Enkie RPF1 - 18x9.5

Link to Forum for specifics on dropped Rx-8
- Dropped 8

Note: Will allow the wider but shorter 285/30/18s at all four corners.
dont you think running 275 all around is kind of too much?
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