bassik277

Before you barrage me with "USE THE SEARCH FEATURE" or monologues as to the handling woes that come with staggering the RX8's wheels, please listen to my logic. I have decided not to sell my staggered volk le37t's (9.5 rear 8.5 front) due to the advice of many who believe that in the long run this setup will prove ideal. Now as far as running a staggered setup on a stock RX8, i fully agree (and have personally experienced) the handling detriments, which includes pronounced understeer, and slightly slower take-off times. However overall, there was a healthy increase in grip and cornering abilities (however as many have mentioned before, this is most probably due to better tires, which are among the most important factors in how a car handles).
I was very much against this performance detriment, and for a while decided to sell my wheels, however since I was on the verge of buying coilovers, I decided to wait a little. I now have Tein Flex Coilovers installed on my car (with the edfc), and I am currently attempting to tune the suspension to try and accomodate my staggered setup. So far, I have adjusted it to a height, and dampening (slightly more dampened in the rear then the front) that has substantially subdued the understeer.

NOW FOR MY LOGIC AS TO WHY I AM KEEPING THE STAGGERED SETUP

I am currently, like many others, eagerly waiting for some form of forced induction. Now according to Road and Track, the weight distribution with the driver (which is the only way i drive!) the car has a healthy 52% front and 48% rear balance. Considering that the car is slightly biased in the front, one can only assume that a little more tire/wheel heft in the rear would not upset, but in fact better the cars weight distribution. Furthermore, in the near future, when I get a substantial amount of power (from forced induction) turning the rear wheels, again I assume that slightly more rear wheel grip would help the cars handling characteristics now that there is enough power to easily power-oversteer, or simply break the rear tires loose.

I am curious as to what you handling/autocross gurus think of my logic as to why i'm staying with my staggered te37's, and of course, if you guys think it is a good idea (because I am still debating my descision).

Of course, one critical benefit of a staggered setup that I forgot to mention is that it looks DAMN NICE!

rev-2-9k

The gurus think that you are staying with your setup for the following reason. It looks nice. My bad it looks damn nice.

You could dial in the steer with bars.

On to more important questions, how do you like the TEIN's. I was thinking about them myself.

IMHO the car would be better with a pair of matched light weight 17's.

robertdot

Exactly what I would aim for if I was going to run staggered.

bassik277

I forgot to mention that I do have a JIC rear strut bar, which Im assuming helped a lot, but I couldnt get an accurate analysis because I put them on at the same time as the teins. The TEIN's are great, and the EDFC is definetely a HUGE luxury, aside from the install being a pain in the ***, it is absolutely worth every penny. And it doesnt detract from performance in any way, because the whole system (including motors, wiring and controls) weighs less then 5 pounds. The coilovers at the loosest dampening are significantly stiffer then stock. And at the stiffest, it is MUCH stiffer then stock, although to me, its not that unbearable as some people seem to say. On any twisty road, i use 1 on the rear and 0 up front (0 being stiffest) and whenever I hit a freeway, i use about 14 all around (16 being least stiff) because the freeway ride on the ultra stiff setting is extremely annoying. Thats where the EDFC comes in handy, you dont have to compromise with dampening, when you hit the freeway, just throw it on the loosest, and when a windy road comes, stiffen the thing up.

BTW, i dont think 17's are a good idea at all if you intend on staying with the same overall diameter as stock, because the tire weight with the huge sidewall would be way heavier then low profile tires, and would also have far more flex then a short stiff sidewall. However if you plan on going with a lower diameter, you will get a lower final drive that would contribute to peppier acceleration, however your car's odometer would rack up more miles, and the speedo would be off, and of course, 17's look atrocious IMHO with the RX8's gargantuan wheel wells. However, if your ONLY intent is racing and not looks (which would make me question why you bought an rx8 in the first place) then 17's with a smaller overall diameter, would surely be a performance enhancement as well as a slight potential increase in gas mileage (and odometer mileage which makes up for the majority of the increase). Considering that my wheels are ~19.5 pounds (which is a few pounds lighter then stock) I dont think it is a bad tradeoff at all and I only do track events once in a while (during which i use my stock rims anyways), and on top of that the volks look far better then stock, as well as any 17" aftermarket application (in my opinion). Its all about priorities.

-Alex

Now back to the ORIGINAL topic

PUR NRG

All of this sounds like rationalization on how to justify keeping wider rears because they look nice. Yes you can compensate for running wider (and therefore higher grip) rear tires by tuning other parts of the suspension. How do you tune? By reducing the effective grip in the rear from its theoretical maximum. As has been explained many times before this is effectively the same as running a narrower tire in rear. So why incur the extra cost of more expensive tires and lose the ability to rotate tires for longer wear? Again, because you like the staggered look.

Any potential benefits if/when FI is added will remain speculation until it happens. Until then you have increased upkeep costs for no added gain.

All this completely ignores the fact that regardless of what performance mods you do or don't have on the car, the most important thing to going fast is seat time. It's a lot cheaper than many upgrades and without it the mods mean jack. Case in point: I have a custom Springfield M21 rifle that cost more than $2500 and can do 1/4" MOA. Problem is I can't shoot long arms worth **** so it's totally wasted on me until I learn how to shoot better. Until then a $250 Ruger 10/22 is more than enough rifle for me to practice with. And I'm horrible with that one as well.
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robertdot

Pur, you made excellent points. I read most of the book you suggested awhile ago, but I still feel like I you have real-world experience that I can't get from that book.

However, I can think of ANOTHER reason to go through the effort OTHER than looks: grip on straight line acceleration.

The guy mentioned the benefits would come when FI gets introduced. If you aren't turning, you'll have the full benefit of the wider wheels (e.g. drag strips) grip. Meanwhile, with proper tuning, you can still maintain close-to-perfect handling.

Is it worth the extra money for maintenance and parts? I have no clue how much grip his wheels will offer over stock widths, so I can't answer. However, at least that makes sense.

I want to write more now, but I think I got my point across and my friend is banging on my door for me to leave.

Closing: Straight-line acceleration with FI would be aided by larger rear wheels and additional mods could put you back at decent handling.

shelleys_man_06

I probably might not stagger my tires, unless I see fit, or I can afford to buy four new tires. I'm considering in investing in SSR Mesh's, but I don't see a viable application for the RX-8, even if I disabled the TPMS. I might just go with the ADVAN RG wheels.

What are some possibilities if I keep the same wheel width, but I stagger the tires anyway?

rev-2-9k

i'll stay with my opinion. 19's look nice. staggered makes it look nicer. i would use 17's for any track events. i might play with a small stagger if i really started to care that much.

You the only one I have heard quote a weight distribution of 52/48 (r&t).

I am not sure FAI will provide sigifigant power like you suggest. My conservative estimates for a bolt on kit will be that you will get 5-6 lbs of boost safely and reliably.

That's good stuff about the TEIN's I would be interested in any more info you can provide. I really did not know it was safe to dial in dampening while the car was moving at highway speeds. Can you adjust the ride height in the same manner? like if you wanted to really lower you car, and then go up to get over some bumps.

Curious why you just installed the rear sway bar? Enough understeer alrdy I imagine.

bassik277

Actually it is mostly an attempt at rationalizing keeping the rims that I have already purchased to spare me the hassle of getting new ones.

Although I am currently running a slight amount of negative camber in the rear (which you might consider "reducing effective grip to its theoretical maximum") but In my experience weight transfer has a lot to do with how neutral your car handles, which is something I was able to adjust according to height and dampening.

Although technically it is speculation, when it comes to speculating how a mechanical system, (as strait forward and intensively studied as an automobile) would perform factoring in different variables, it is fairly easy to predict what result you can expect. Which is why I posed this question in the first place, to those members more well versed in this area then I am, to be able to "speculate" as to any possible future benefit in keeping my wheels in order to "rationalize" keeping my wheels rather then getting new ones which might not perform as well in the future.

Although Im fairly certain I understand your analogy, im not quite sure it pertains to the topic, nor do i fully agree with it. While I do acknowledge that the best, and most effective way of driving quicker, is learning hands on how to drive better, and have a more intimate notion of the vehicles dynamics. All this does not negate how well your vehicle has the potential of performing. What I mean is that a driver, with a fair amount of "seat time" would always benefit from having a well tuned vehicle, as a posed to a stock vehicle in terms of track times. However I have had a substantial amount of "seat time" when compared to the average sports-car driver, and although my last name isn't Millen, i'm still able to appreciate and utilize a car with better dynamics then one with inferior dynamics. Frankly the only context in which your analogy makes sense is with the mindset that you should only buy a good performing part if you are able to utilize it to its maximum, or else its a waste of money. If that logic were true, then 95% of this forum would not be an rx8 owner.

bassik277

1. 52/48 is WITH the driver, (which is all that really matters). It baffles me that many people on the board argue that staggered rears would "upset" the 50/50 balance when that weight distribution is quoted for the car alone, not with a driver. I guess it really matters to have the most punctual weight distribution on a parking spot.

2. The dampening is fine at highway speeds, however that is all the edfc can do. It currently has no height adjusting capabilities, you have to jack up the car in order to adjust height. Which is fine for me, because I found a good height, which I am not planning on adjusting often at all.

3. From what I gather, rear bar (primarily rear anti-sway bars, which I am getting soon) promote oversteer. Additionally, the car has a stock front bar, which I might eventually replace primarily for aesthetics then actual function.

PUR NRG

The base point is regardless of your budget, everyone has a set limit of time and money. Given that limit the real question should be what is the best bang for your buck? And what is best bang? I say it's the ability of you and the car to go as fast as possible. Not just the car's potential by itself. Unrealized potential is a waste.

My anecdote meant to illustrate that me + M21 is far less accurate than me + 10/22 and lots of practice. Way more expensive too.

I think it's fine to say you like the look of 19" wheels that are staggered even though they are not as good in performance to a balanced set of 18" wheels. It's when you try to justify why they could be better performance-wise to the 18's that rubs me the wrong way. You can easily fit 265/35-18 tires on 18x8.5" wheels that weigh 17 pounds on all four corners. If you wanted performance above looks you could probably fit 275/35-18 tires on custom billet 18x9" wheels without needing wheel spacers. I fail to see how any 19" wheel can be better in terms of performance.
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Rob Tomlin

Very informative thread. Thanks for the excellent info.

I'm sure I will be getting aftermarket rims, but I will more than likely stay with 18 inchers all around.

Gord96BRG

From this and one of your prior comments, it looks like you're confusing shock tower brace bars with anti-roll bars that bolt to the underside of the chassis and connect to the suspension links. Aside from being thicker, aftermarket anti-roll bars (aka sway bars, anti-sway bars) look exactly the same as the OEM anti-roll bars, which every RX-8 already has front and rear.

If you are talking about the shock tower brace bars, then they will not make any significant difference on handling balance. They will stiffen the chassis, and a stiffer chassis is always better, but they have no direct affect on the suspension itself. Changing anti-roll bars can tune handling balance, but the sequence of tuning should be as follows: springs, then anti-roll bars, then shocks (assuming adjustables), then tire pressure.

PUR NRG is right - none of your performance reasons for staggered is valid - there's absolutely nothing to be gained by giving up traction on the front by running smaller sizes there. That will ALWAYS lead to understeer! You want more traction in the back for future FI power levels? Great, but put the same size on the front to keep the handling balanced.

Are you saying that heavier wheels in the back is better? It's not - unsprung weight is always evil, and to be avoided at all costs anywhere (we are talking in terms of performance benefits here). Running heavier wheels to change the weight distribution would be silly - any microscopic benefit would be lost to the much more significant disadvantages of higher unsprung weight.

Sorry, I'm in the camp that says you're not making many valid points to justify the staggered setup for performance reasons!

Regards,
Gordon

PUR NRG

Oh, one last comment: if you want a real-world example look no further than one magazine's write-up of JIC coilovers on an RX-8. This car is owned by JIC NA's president and had a staggered setup (and Racing Beat sway bars). The mag ran the car through a slalom test and found lots of understeer. They swapped the rear wheels to match what was up front and posted faster slalom times.
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Sputnik

[/quote]...in the near future, when I get a substantial amount of power (from forced induction) turning the rear wheels, again I assume that slightly more rear wheel grip would help the cars handling characteristics now that there is enough power to easily power-oversteer, or simply break the rear tires loose... [QUOTE] The thing is, there already IS enough power to cause power-oversteer. As it is, if you are at the limits coming out of a corner, and you get on the power too early, the tail will want to step out. Increasing power does not change this fact.

While staggering might improve power-on characteristics coming out of a corner, you hurt handling characteristics coming into a corner, and in the middle of a corner. And, braking will also suffer. Power does not matter on those points. And if you are considering something like a road course, you have to remember that when you add power, you *should* be faster at the next braking zone, which means that you will have to brake more, which will increase the effect of any detriments (or benefits) you have in braking performance. And if you adjust your balance so that handling is not as good in entry, then you will be slower on entry, and so you end up doing even more braking, further increasing the effects of any detriments or benefits in braking performance.

Another thing to consider with your power-oversteer scenario is weight transfer. The more power you are putting down (not how much peak power that dyno shows, but how much power you are putting to the ground at that particular moment), the more weight transfers to the rear. With a balanced setup, coming out of a corner, there is only so much throttle you can apply without causing the tail to step out. Let's say that you add wider tires in the rear (and that you do NOT do anything like adjust tire pressures or sway bars) adding more grip in the rear. Then coming out of that same corner, you should be able to apply more throttle before causing the tail to step out. But now, with more throttle, you are putting more power to the ground, which means that more weight is transfering from the front to the rear. That means more downforce in the back and less in front, which means that you will start to understeer coming out of the corner. Again, how much will depend on alot of things, but you will still be limited as to how fast you can come out of that corner.

My point is that you need to remember that it's all a trade-off, and you have to consider whether you are trading off more than you are gaining, for what you want (and this includes how important style is for you, and how much money you want to spend). There are ways like tire pressure and sway bar adjustments that you can do to move things around, but again, you are just trading things out (like have already been mentioned on this forum, so I won't re-hash that). The more balanced a car's handling is, the better it will be for all of the various different corners, street surfaces, and weather conditions that one will come up on in streets and highways.

For racing, the more balanced a car's handling is, the more options the driver will have as far as approaching a corner. This is important not only to get the most out of a corner, but to be able to change how you take the car through a corner, to help setup a pass. But how many of us are going to be doing door-to-door racing in our RX8s?

Anyway, just some things to consider.

---jps

MrWigggles

I love my staggered set-up.

I have 245's front with 275 rears. How does it feel? About the same as stock, but IMO better. I don't autocross, but I do have a very fast commute everyday and I drive my car about as fast as you can without being a menace on the highway. (I have a "passenger discomfort bag" for any of my riders if they need it.)

I have no trouble kicking the rear out when I need to - just come on the trottle a little harder exiting turns. I am definitely faster than I used to be.

Not all mismatched scenarios are the same. First, there isn't that big of a difference between 275 and 245 - we are not talking about a dragster set-up by any stretch. I am also adding grip to the rear not reducing it from the front. There's a difference. If I went to a 195 in the front and a 225 in the rear, I would be potentially upsetting the balance but definitely reducing grip in the front over stock. With 275 and 245, I am still potentially upsetting balance (which I argue isn't true), but at least the potential understeer problem is coming from increased grip in the rear not reduced grip in the front.

There is a difference.

My tire/wheel mods have been one of my favorites. You couldn't pay me to change back.

-Mr. Wigggles

Sputnik

Yes, that is something else to remember when people are reporting whether the car is handling better overall, and when someone is choosing their wheel/tire package. If you go from a stock 225/225 setup to a 275/245 setup, the "weak link" would be the narrower tire up front, but that weak link would still be stronger than the stock 225/225 setup.

When we are comparing staggered vs. balanced, we are compariing apples to apples, like a 265/225 vs. 245/245 or a 275/235 vs. 255/255 setup. And also to show that a 275/245 staggered setup isn't necessarilly better than even a 245/245 setup.

But it comes down to understanding what both sides are saying, their reasoning, and applying it to what you want.

---jps

VividRacing.com

Here's my two cents:

Currently I'm running 245/35/19 up front and 285/35/19 out back. Before anyone jumps down my throat, I konw it's not the best set up for the track. But for the street it's just fine. I come from a muscle car back round whare bigger meats in the rear are not only cool but provide great traction. The over all handling the car is impoved but keep in mind that I have a lot done to the suspension(as you can see in my sig) and it all works together nicely for street driving. However, on the track I use a more normal set up. 255/35/18 all the way around. This set up has proven to me to be a great tire size for road racing and provides ample amount of grip with out bogging the car down. If the car had more power, say 300 at the wheels I'd probably opt for 275's at all 4 corners for better grip but that's not the case currently. LIke Sputnik has stated, you need to check out what others have done and how the applications would work for you and make your own decision. Plenty of forum members have addressed this topic time and time again. Those of us who have done different wheel/tire options are always glad to give our opinions to help you out.

Rob Tomlin

I am getting ready to order aftermarket wheels. This is the setup that was recommended to me by the vendor:

18x8.0 with offset of 45 up front
18x9.0 with offset of 45 in back

I would put the stock 225 tires up front, and 245's in the rear.

I don't race or autocross, but I don't want to impact the handling in a negative way more than necessary obviously.

Will the above work?

MrWigggles

Rob,

You would lose the ability to rotate tires as you already know I'm sure.

Your combo has a 10% different larger size for the back. As I and Sputnik pointed out earlier, you might upset the balance slightly but it will come with the side benefit of slightly more grip in the rear.

But personally, I think the car handles better with staggered. With the stock tires I found the car slightly oversteering especially when I disengage the DSC which hides it pretty well. I do not autocross, but I do drive about as fast as you possibly drive on the streets without being wreckless and I love my staggered set-up. (Oh, not to mention they look much better)

The rim sizes and tires you mentioned will work fine. You will not have any rubbing front or rear.

-Mr. Wigggles

jgoldstein2000

Pull the trigger Rob... I want to see those wheels!

Fanman

Well you might get a bit more understeer. Why wouldn't you just do 245's all the way around (unless you want to keep your stock tires, but then different tire brands tend to affect driving a little bit). Just do the 245/40/18's all the way around. the 8.0 rim seems to work with this setup. Or go 245's up front & 275's in the back.

When my stock tires wear out I think I will be going to 245's on my ride. If I get FI, I may want to switch out the rims and go for a 275 in the back to get better traction.

Rob Tomlin

Thanks triple g!

Makes me feel more confident about doing this. To be honest, the only reason I am going with the aftermarket wheels (SSR Professor's in Super Black Coat) is for looks. I agree that going with a staggered setup looks better. I just wanted to make sure that it doesn't come at too high of a price.

Fanman-

I will probably consider doing 245's all the way around when the stockers up front need replacing. Just trying to save a bit of money to start with. I may even keep the extra stock tires from the back to use up front when those wear out.

As for mixing tires, don't the stock Bridgestones come in a 245?

And what is the purpose of going with an even smaller profile tire that you refer to (40 vs the stock 45)?

Thanks for the responses.

Fanman

Yeah that is why I am going to wear through these original tires first (to save money). I don't particularly like them. I think they are pretty noisy, and the grip level isn't particularly high. I previously had Continental Sport Contacts & Pirelli P Zero Rossos on my previous car and I thought they were better. The stock bridgestones do come in 245/45/18 & 245/40/18. From my understanding the cross section of the tire does affect the appearance/performance of the sidewall height. 245/40/18 look much closer to 225/45/18. Just what I have always been shown & told. Also there seems to be a better selection of tires at 245/40/18.

rotarenvy

back to stagered rims

what effect dose having the overall width on the rear wider than the front?
eg 18" x 8 front 18" x 9" rear with the same offset on both.

you would have the same track width (measured from the tyre centre to centre) but the rear would be 1/2" wider overall than the front. will it understeer or oversteer?