Adjustable endlinks - adjustment question
 

I bought and installed the Agency Power adjustatble front endlinks. The factory ones failed and the upgraded TSB ones failed as well.

What is the proper way to adjust the endlink length so it is correct in relationship to the sways and RB lowering springs? Thanks.

In Relation to the Front Sway Bar you want to keep the bar Horizontal(Completely level with the Ground, so adjusting the bolts height so that depending on your ride height making it shorter in length to pull the bar to a horizontal position.

Let me know if that helps or have any other questions.

Upgraded TSB?..

Why does the end-link length matter?

When you lower the car the direction of the bar changes from its most powerful and effective position. ( The bar will point at an angle, upwards.)

So the end link will bring it back down to it correct position. (Horizontal and level with the ground)

http://www.evo-r.net/product/RX-8/LINK/OEMLINK2.jpg

http://www.evo-r.net/product/RX-8/LINK/OEMLINK3.jpg

Without cutting-and-pasting or plagiarizing somebody else's text, why is this important?

Come on Brice, let's have some fun!:lol2:

I got a better question Ray.. :x Using the adjustable endlinks..how do you get the rear to be horizontal with the rear auto-level sensor in the way? If it wasn't, I'd have no problem...but seems to be causing me some grief.

I am not cutting and pasting anyones text, I did however grab the pics elsewhere.

But we will see who is laughing this Friday....Got a nice product release right up your alley.

You have a PM Charles....:lol:

Shouldn't you be asking the one who sold the links to you? They oughta know.

If the angle is not close to 90 degrees it puts strange loads on the joints.....and it can lead to binding..or worst case scenario..the bar will lock on the frame......causing very large increases in effective spring rate :) Not good for handling...

Bring it, Bro, I love Capitalism but I don't take any of this as a joke when it comes to giving people solid advice rather than just shoving parts in their hands.

No I don't.

Was just stating.. I was assuming it's for all rears considering everyone has a autolevel sensor..

I forgot to say, "All PMS replied!". :lol2:

Call me if you want to talk, Brice, you have the Batphone number.;)

This same principle applies when it comes to suspension drops, too.
The word I was looking for was "pre-load".
Further, before anybody thinks I am getting personal with Brice/Fluid please understand that I am trying to encourage all of we vendors to engage in technical discussion so those who read these conversations can see what their favorite vendors' opinons are (on a strictly technical level) and decide the theory or theories with which they are most comfortable. Nobody on the BHR team is arrogant enough to actually think we know everything and we certainly enjoy the opportunity to share ideas and learn something in the process. And maybe have a little healthy competition in the process as we are more concerned with the end benefit to the market more than anything else. The current vendor rules quash these opportunities.

:eyetwitch:eyetwitch:lol::lol::)

Okay, then. Erick, Todd, and myself anyway. :lol2:
Speaking of that; there is nothing funnier than when I get Jeff to look at me like he hears a dog whistle being blown.

The purpose of a sway bar is to keep the "loaded" side of the car even with the "unloaded" side of the car in a turn. So all it's technically doing is flexing itself.
This is the purpose of a larger sway bar. To not flex as much. As far as the endlink position it is all relative to the opposite side of the sway bar.
Now if the sway bar was fixed to the frame and not able to rotate in the mounting brackets then height would be an issue.
Just be sure to make sure they are at the same height on both sides.
But the sway bar does not deal with the mounting points as much as it deals with rotational flex and even height of the endlinks.

Mine is set up the same way. I have my ap endlink set to the stiff position that means its in the hole close to the bar. From the sounds of it. Yours is the same way. My car is lowered on tanabe gf210 springs. So there is really no way for me to set the bar straight. Trust me that sucker is on there tight.
Even with the autolevel sensor in the way I use a short alenwrench on the end of a socket wrench to hold it from spinning and used a long 17" box end wrench to tourqe it the bolts down. Works for me.
But keep an eye on the bolts as they tend to come lose over time.
-Gil

Here is the curious thing about swaybars and adjustable end-links; swaybars such as the Progress Techs for the front of the RX-8 have 3 holes on each side and are considered "5-way" adjustable. Why might that be? Further, many people misunderstand the purpose of adjustable end-links and the differences in how the center rods are threaded and their implications.

And herein lies a HUGE secret to what makes BHR the best........

... and this advice comes from a guy who has no fiducuary interest in the matter. thx, Gil.;)

The adjustability of the sway bar ends allows the user to adjust the torsional flexibility of the sway bar. Think leverage.
The closer in the setting to the front of the bar the more stiff the bar becomes. The farther out the mounting point (end of sway bar end link mount) will make the bar more flexible.

some good info coming out here... subscribed..

Uhh its fiduciary not eiducuary.

Gil, what are you talking about? I didn't misspell anything........

Well actually you both did. :lol2:

fiduciary

I didn't, Jack Daniels did!:lol2:

lol I was talking about Evo-R rear endlinks and that if we bring it lower it goes against the sensor... not about anything else. Then you guys went on about sways in general.. :x

We're terrible in that respect.

:rofl: I'll take a glass please X_X

Well what I had to say had a lot to do with what you where asking, regardless of endlinks. You do not want them to sit on anything othere than the crib they rest in and the sway bar. Theres an old saying; If you brake a tool, then your using it for the wrong job. In that respect if it was not ment to be used in a fashion other that what the manufacturer suggested I would not do it.

:lol2: so true.

lol I guess you're both right. I'll take a closer look at some point, but thanks for the tips anyways.

Here's some thinking out loud since I have been working with Whiteline's sway bars and adjustable endlinks:

My question would be...are adjustable endlinks more or less a replacement for the adjustment holes in a sway bar? Right now, I have a non-adjustable Whiteline sway bar but the endlinks are adjustable.

In simple terms, increasing the length of the links would soften the suspension and decreasing the links would stiffen the suspension IIRC. In terms of overall adjustability things get complex when you have both adjustable bars AND endlinks.

There's a really awesome thread I'm pouring over on the NASOIC forums where whiteline discusses how a 3 point adjustable bar is in fact 5 point adjustable.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=218971

One thing to keep in mind with adjustable suspension is the range and complexity of your setup. I made the mistake of thinking more adjustability was better when all it did was seriously complicate my setup. It's taken the better part of a year of track time and research for me to finally get a setup that works within what the RX8 was designed for.

Length of the links makes little to no difference in the stiffness of the bars....it is the lenght of the pivot arm that determines that

With adjustable endlinks on a non-adjustable bar you can still adjust. So yes they are a replacement. Plus oem endlinks suck. They bend in the back (well mine did) and from what I read on here the front bend too.

You can adjust the bar position...but not the stiffness ;)

So, I'm thinking the endlinks need to be adjusted while the wheels are on the ground. That's going to be a challenging position to make the adjustments.

Why not?

Full of good info here... keeping an eye on this!

Isn't THIS what forums like this are for? I certainly hope it is.........

Share ideas, thoughts, observations, and experiences.
Argue a bit, challenge one another, get heated from time to time.
Get pissed at each other and call each other names.
Meet up and drink a couple Samuel L. Jackson beers together.

Happens at the BHR "compound" every time there are two or more of us getting together.:lol2:

I have been wondering this for a while, thanks for informing the masses.

You can put the lower control arm on jack stands. That loads the spring to give you the proper angle.
Also, if the angle of the swaybar ends are adjusted too high, they can bounce against the OEM brake line causing it to fracture and loose fluid.

O Rly?

The Bar doesn't move, The End-link changes position and it does change the stiffness level by changing the whole Softer setting on the upgraded bars to full stifness settings you can see


Pulled from Hotckis, becasue I obviously know nothing and I need to quote what I say from where I already know.

Instead of being sarcastic you could just correct the wrong statement. :uhh: (For Charles)

Everyone has valuable input....

Where was my sarcasm?

The point, BRICE, was to make you do your own homework (for once) instead of others (like me) doing it for you as you asked me to do with regard to ACT's line of product recently. Maybe you should learn a little more about the RX-8 instead of telling people what they simply want to hear in order to close a sale.

What is even more embarassing is that people have posted up here who aren't even vendors and they have more experience than you with this car and they articulated their positions far better than you did. Doesn't that cause anyone concern here?

I don't know nearly everything about the RX-8, and we are all learning, but I don't also need to bullshit people about it and ape other people's info in order to help my customers.

Not everyone has valuable input as I wouldn't trust a brain surgeon to rebuild my transmission.

THIS was sarcasm.......

the current rules were put in place because of a bhr team member and his constant bashing of others to the point of harassment whose sole point seemed not for info sake but to drive away competition. many could conclude from reading his posts that he is indeed arrogant enough.

/jack

as a side note, this recent talk is why i pestered Fluid recently about one of their products. not because it was a poor product, but because i am not informed enough to forsee all the aspects of many modifications and i look to the vendor trying to sell me something to fill me in on any and every question or concern i may have about it.

/end jack

This is my understanding of the geometry of swaybar stiffness. Correct me with facts if I am wrong. As Dannobre alludes to above, the stiffness of the sway bar is related to the torsional stiffness of the main cross bar which is dependent on its diameter and construction (hollow vs solid), multiplied by the length of the pivot arm (the arm with the adjustable holes in it). Using different holes in the pivot arm shortens or lengthens the pivot arm, and changes the torque just like using a shorter or longer wrench handle.

The adjustment of the endlinks is there simply to align the connection of the pivot arm to the frame to prevent binding, and interference with the frame and other suspension/brake components. Although I can imagine a radical change in endlink length might have some small effect on sway bar stiffness by changing the geometry of the pivot arm, endlink length changes large enough to significantly effect bar stiffness would probably cause big problems with binding and survival of the endlink.

I would imagine that the best endlink length is that which places the endlink at 90 degrees to the line extending from the attachment hole to the center of the cross-section of the main cross bar when the suspension is loaded at rest (i.e. on the ground).

^That's it in a nut shell.

Hmmph...That being said, so it's not about making sure the bar's actually horizontal then..it's about the endlink being completely 90 degrees. Making sure I understood you properly there?

I don't have the bar sitting in front of me to look at it, but a lot of bars for different cars have curved and or bent pivot arms to get around interfering objects. The endlink should be 90 degrees to the line intersecting the bolt hole and the main cross bar of the sway bar which may or may not be 90 degrees to the end of the pivot arm. If the pivot arm is curved as pictured below the endlink won't be 90 degrees to it.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...rendlink-1.jpg

I think there are plenty of people who see things differently.

In order for the most efficient movement (what little there is) and accurate setting the end-link SHOULD be at a right-angle to the axis of the swaybar. However, here is a fundamental question;

Why were adjustable end-links invented in the first place? Once we understand the answer to that question the rest becomes obvious. Even better, when we get inside the heads of the OEM suspension design teams we can remember that they have INFINTE end-link length at their disposal when they design the swaybar/end-link system so we must also ask; how do they determine the "proper" length for the end-links and what are they parameters they must take into consideration?

I don't wish to simply bloviate my opinion, I want to teach all of you what I learned with Ford for 8 years and show you how to assess things for yourselves.