Shattered Clutch repair - Starter removal
 

So Wednesday something let go in my clutch system (not my pedal assembly), and everything is pointing to it being one of the internal bearings. I have a new clutch that I purchased from BHR and arrived yesterday, and I am doing the replacement in my driveway. 42F and falling, rain/snow mix on it's way through into tomorrow morning :sad:

Currently, I have everything but the starter off before the step to remove the transmission bellhousing from the engine, but I can't get the starter off. I can get it about 1 inch away from the transmission before it hangs up on something metallic. While wiggling it and shifting it and trying to yank it free, I can hear metallic chunks getting stirred around inside the transmission, and shredded clutch material is sifting through the starter hole, and I can see wads of it farther in.

I've tried shifting the gears around to see if it moves something on the transmission side, I've tried having my wife manipulate the clutch pedal to see if I can get something to move there, but about an hour of work and I'm not making any progress.

The only thing I've thought of that I haven't tried is reconnecting the starter to the battery and juicing it briefly, but I'm hesitant to do that due to unknown side effects. Pre-disassembly, it wasn't turning over the engine anyway, and disconnected from that, I could see some concerns with no-load or with the gears smashing through/into something.


Ideas? Recommendations?

Just a stab in the dark but if you can slide it off and inch is that enough space to slide something in like a metal coat hanger or a screwdriver and have a feel around, see if you can dislodge something. I changed my clutch a fer weeks back and it slid straight off. Something must have got jammed in the teeth.
Can you get to the flywheel and rotate it manually to try to free it. Only other thing is brute force get something in the gap and try to pry it open, but you really don't want to push too hard and damage the bell housing.

I've replaced the starter myself before, and it just slides out, so it's getting hung on something related to the clutch failure.

I can't even find the gap in the starter "nose" where the teeth are exposed. I know it's toward the input shaft direction (inward on the circle of the transmission), but I don't think I've got it out quite far enough yet. I'll see if I can get one of my long thin screwdrivers in there. Thanks.

I agree, I'm not going to just pry it out. It definitely is hanging on something metal, and trying to pry it off is just going to damage the bellhousing and/or starter housing.

https://www.rx8club.com/picture.php?...ictureid=29267

Here is a pic of the starter motor and it is a really small gap for something to fall into and you might struggle to get at the opening.
Maybe if you loosened the bell housing and moved it if there is any play, it might just free up what ever is caught in there or you might be able to see what is causing the problem and come in from the side to free it up.

My thinnest screwdriver can get wiggled into 2 spots, but neither is moving anything inside the transmission end, and it just restricts the starter movement too much to use a combination to wiggle it free.

Picture might be helpful.



And a video might be even better than that. Sorry for the shaking and close quarters. I don't have much clearance under there.
http://youtu.be/sTuAPKrRVO4

One of the bellhousing bolts is under the starter flange. I can just barely get a 14mm open ended wrench over it, but even if I turn it free, I'm only going to be able to back it out a little bit, and it's a long bolt.

I gotta go out, but I will have a think, I bet you are frustrated. Good luck and I will see if I can think of anything else. I wont be home for hours though!

Ray gave me an idea, rotating the engine back and forth by hand to wiggle the flywheel back and forth. My wife is getting bundled up to do that while I yank on the starter underneath.


Temp down into the 30s now, hands freezing.

Alright, that didn't work. The rotation of the engine is limited to about 10-15 degrees of pulley rotation, and it's being stopped at each limit by the same thing that's causing the starter to hang. One end of the engine rotation limit would 'anchor' the starter in place more, the other end would loosen it up the most it can, but you can definitely feel the connection between the two creating the limit on engine rotation.

This is going to put a serious hamper on my progress.

https://www.rx8club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1319903906

Any luck on getting it off?

One thing I thought you might be able to do is to dismantle the starter it you could remove the cog mechanism from inside the starter the outer case might just wiggle free. I don't think there is an easy way to dismantle the starter so you may have to destroy it, were talking last resort here.

If you can locate the foreign object can you get your screw driver on it and give it a good hit to dislodge it.

I still think removing/siding the transmission a little bit might let you get in from and angle maybe get a flash light in there and see what is stuck and how to free it.

Sorry to hear about the weather that really sucks!

No, no further progress made. I'm pretty much waiting out the weather right now.

My next attempt is going to be removing the rest of the other bolts between the bellhousing and the engine, and then as I rotate the last bolt under the starter flange, rather than removing the bolt, the separation will occur between the engine and bellhousing.

In theory. If whatever is jammed in there is caught on the flywheel in such a way that it just moves the bellhousing to the starter flange and no further, then I think the only option at that point is destructive. :sad:

wow - never heard of this happening before .
It sounds to me like you need to get more aggressive with it - not to the point of breaking stuff but yeah ....

I'm pretty sure that it's a piece of whatever disintegrated, and it's fallen into the opening where the starter gear is, and it's sticking out, catching on the flywheel. It's metal, whatever it is. I'd have to hope that it would break/bend before my starter or bellhousing would, and I'm not sure I want to take that chance.

/\ I would get real technical and have someone turn the crank pully back and forth while i was under there jiggling and yanking like f**k . :)

Done. Next idea? :)

I only have about 10-15 degrees of pulley rotation before I hit a mechanical limit on each end.

Moving the crank pulley one direction (think it's clockwise) makes the starter harder to move at all. Regardless of the position it's in, it's like something is clamping it harder and harder. It could be out as far as I can get it, and it just gets "locked" into that position and I can't wiggle/nudge it at all, even hauling on it. If it's back into it's installed position, it locks there as well.

Moving the crank pulley in the opposite direction "loosens" the starter up, and I get full range of wiggle/yanking on it. However, I still can't get it free from that end, and I can still feel the metallic resistance blocking it.

It's a fairly smooth gradient of pressure on the starter between the two extremes, no "Sweet spots" I could find.

With my wife on the crank pulley (via my breaker bar and a 19mm socket), I can clearly feel the flywheel moving the starter around. I'm having a hard time explaining that, but you know how you can feel the resistance or impact bits through the metal handle you are holding for whatever? It's like that. I can feel the teeth hitting something as they turn, I can feel the tightening of whatever against the starter, etc... I'm positive that whatever is anchoring the starter is preventing the motor from rotating any further in either direction.

Bang the starter housing with a rubber mallet. Maybe you can bounce what ever is the problem out of there.

Hmm. Might work. I'm pondering the best way to get angle and force and where to actually hit it.


See how many ideas I can build up for ~11am tomorrow when the weather clears and hopefully the driveway dries off. Might have to run a portable heater out under the car to dry it all faster :)

I've thought about turning the car over and shaking the debris to the other end of the bellhousing, but haven't figured out how I would actually do that :lol:

Halfway through the thread I was wanting to suggest exactly this. Unfortunately I don't have much to offer in assistance, but I am very curious to see how this pans out.

Realistically, if it doesn't come out any other way, pulling the engine to turn the engine/transmission combo over should actually work. No need to turn over the entire car :lol:


That's not something I'm prepared to do right now though.


And it's probably cheaper /easier to cut off the starter and replace that as well.

I've added "disassemble starter" to the list of things to try before destructive options. In theory, if I can get to the gear/rod inside the starter, I may be able to use the hand rotation of it to help, or to reach that gear enclosure and whatever is stuck in there

Option A:

Remove all the bolts and drop the trans, the 130 lb of pressure should break the piece of clutch/PP that is holding the starter in place.

Option B:

Remove the whole upper intake mani to get to the little metal flap unbolt that and get a very long screw driver and start jamming around until it breaks free.

Option C:

Get a large can of gasoline pour it over the vehicle light on fire and collect insurance.

:lol: I vote option B.

Option D : crowbar

an inch of snow on the ground and 8 this morning. ugh.


Shady:
I have no idea what you are getting at with Option B? "little metal flap"? You are making a reference to something that I am not aware of. Explain?

Option A is only viable if I can actually unbolt the transmission. If I can get the transmission off with the starter still installed, I will be able to reach into the bellhousing and manually correct it. However, the bolt under the starter flange is going to be the problem there. With the rest of the bolts out, in theory I can back out that one, moving the transmission off of the engine without moving the bolt out of the transmission (does that make sense?) I guess it depends on if the bolt threading is in the transmission and engine or just in the engine. If it's threaded in the transmission to (Which I doubt) then this wouldn't work, because I can only back that bolt out of the transmission the distance to the starter flange. It's also dependant on if whatever is jamming it is so hung up on the flywheel that it links the engine and transmission together and prevents the transmission from coming free. But, if I only have 1 bolt between them, and it's loose, then I have a pivot point to try to see what might be able to change.


Brettus:
I don't think the bellhousing would survive a crowbar :sad:

You have to take the trans out any way so just unbolt and drop the entire thing rather than d1ck around with the starter. You can then address the starter hangup from the front side of the open bellhousing end. .

The bellhousing-to-engine bolt under the starter flange is the part that makes that not quite as simple as it sounds. I mentioned above how I'm going to try to see if I can get the transmission off anyway.

Agreed that if the transmission is off, the starter is no longer a difficult issue.

If the starter is out an inch or more you have cleared the flywheel.

Option B:


http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._3156678_n.jpg

the metal flap to the far right should give you access.

That's the top rear of the engine block right? (I assume you are referring to the black plate)

Awesome, thanks. I'm going to give that a try.

Ok, too long of a shot for it to work. I have to remove the oil filter/fittings to get to that, they sit right over that bolt.


Ground is still soaked (snow melt) but going to start disassembling the starter.

Starter motor end removed (the black part in the middle). The base is still attached to the flange, and I haven't figured out how to release the gearing mechanism yet. The change in mass makes it easier to move around however, and I got it wiggled out just enough to reach this hole in the base:
http://www.eurotuningnews.com/wp-con...X8-Starter.jpg

However, compare to the where it is in relation to the gear pocket, and I don't think I'm going to be able to use it for anything useful. Grabbing wires and stuff that I might be able to use to run up through there and see what happens.

Transmission is out, well, mostly. It is under the car against a support brace, no longer attached to the engine. I've still got to wrestle it out of the way so I can work on the clutch.

Preliminary glances showed the flywheel intact, though the teeth banged up a bit here and there.

Pictures will be incoming shortly.

I snapped this one to show the environment I'm working in :lol:

Parking our van across the end of the driveway to visually shield the fact that the 8 is on jacks and discourage potential hooligans earned us a $100 parking ticket for "parking on the sidewalk" last night. :wallbash:

Although, the sidewalk ends at our driveway from one direction, doesn't continue on the other, and I'm pretty sure the statute is against "parking on public sidewalks", but I know from prior run-ins with the city that I am responsible for everything up to the curb, which means even the sidewalk here is private property.

Ah well, will fight that another day.

I think the best option now would be to remove the bell housing, undo the bolt behind the starter enough to get a hacksaw in and cut that bolt then you can remove the transmission and it will only cost a few $$$ to replace the bolt. You can just drill the rest of the bolt out or get it out using mole grips etc.

^^Posted at the same time as post above, hope you get it sorted out.^^

Ok, picture time, and I seriously need expert advice here to figure out what is going on before I remove the clutch.


The starter is mangled heavily. How this happened on a pedal-in 7,500rpm shift (before I pulled it out of 2nd gear), I have no idea. Something had to have let go, and I can't see how that could have been the starter. I again repeat, my clutch pedal assembly is still intact, no damage, no broken welds, no side to side flex. Pre-disassembly, it just had too little resistance.

Attachment 239588

The release bearing around the input shaft is very difficult to turn by hand, contrast to the new one in the Exedy box. Nothing appears to be missing however:
Attachment 239583


There is a thin metal 'something' wrapped around the starter gear.
Attachment 239584

This appears to have originally been riveted above the starter opening on the side of the bellhousing across another opening? There is a gouge on the bottom side of this opening.

Attachment 239585

You can see from the previous picture and this one, there are little gouge marks covering the inside of the bellhousing in all directions, shrapnel impact marks I am guessing.
Attachment 239586

And probably some of the culprits of those, laying in a pile at the bottom. I'm sure they gathered there from the effort of removing the transmission
Attachment 239587

Ouch, how does the flywheel look? Maybe the starter gear got loose or something.

Oh, the engine now turns over by hand as normally expected without any issues or drama. I'm guessing that the flywheel teeth were catching on that metal bit that is wrapped around the starter gear/nose.

I dunno man, take the clutch off looks like part of it could have broke loose on the inside and fell through somehow.

A few of the teeth have impact marks on them, but in all it looks fine. No missing teeth, none bent out of shape, etc...

Agreed, something snapped internally to cause this damage, and the release bearing, while clearly in need of replacing, appears to be intact.

that is a strange one. in any event i would just disassemble everything and inspect it thoroughly and replace the whole clutch kit. that shield will obviously not be an issue in the future, heh.

i wouldn't bang head on the wall over it for too long, even a lose dowel on the pressure plate could have grabbed the shield and ripped it off and lodged it right into the starter nosecone.

Geez, that is some serious carnage Mike... I hope you get it sorted out. I do NOT envy you the task of working on this in this weather.

I don't envy myself either :) Keep having to take breaks to get my hands warm. Even with a heater out there and gloves, all the cold metal and dropping temps isn't helping.

Clutch disc itself appears to have shattered.

Attachment 239577
Attachment 239578
Attachment 239579
Attachment 239580

3 of the 4 springs are completely loose, i found a couple half-rings of metal, like they were the spring washers or something. They are probably the shrapnel that was inside the bellhousing.


Flywheel appears fine. Everything is tight, rotates smoothly. The metal face doesn't appear to have any gouges or damage. Teeth are fine.
Attachment 239581
Attachment 239582


So I guess I chalk this up to the severe side of possibilities when a clutch disc eventually wears out? I have some material left, although admittedly not all that much :)

Starter out. The metal bits were NOT wrapped around the gear or shaft. They were just sliced into the housing of the starter itself. Think "a piece of straw in a tornado".

Sheer luck on my part apparently.

Attachment 239575
Attachment 239576

Does anyone know if this starter is going to be safe to use? If not long term, temporary while I wait for a new starter to get shipped in?

I can't find any damage to the shaft or gear itself. Just the housing.

i kind of figured it was part of the clutch as i haven't noticed any shields inside the bellhousing but figured it would have been apparent before pulling it apart. at any rate you found your answer.

starter is up in the air, the strongest points have been compromised but i would try it out for temporary use anyways. worst case the head breaks while attempting to start and rounds the ring gear off slightly but those gear teeth are pretty durable.

If the damage is limited to what we see in the above photos, I would think that you could use it at least temporarily.

I've been there with my clutch disk on my RX7. Except, I ripped the clutch friction surface completely off. As long as you've gone this far, have you thought about a lightweight flywheel. You won't regret it.

Thought about it? yes. Want it? yes. Can afford it right now? not at all. :sad:

Some other day. Maybe 180k? :lol:

Working on re-assembling everything, though won't be able to go much longer due to temperature.

meh, lightweight flywheels have their purpose but if you drive in the city a fair amount sometimes it is regrettable pulling away from every stop. i dislike it in my FC which isn't all that heavy but the series 4 turbo engines are quite doggy off the line anyways so it might not be so bad in the 8.

i haven't driven an 8 with the lightweight flywheel yet so i shouldn't have even commented. :)