2005 RX8 Automatic Shinka...

This is my Mother's car, I'm not there yet. Helping her over the phone and trying to arrive prepared. I'm trying to help her sort out some issues. I'm at work and I have been searching as long as I can w/o getting written up for searching on the net. So I need some quick answers before I leave work to go to her house.

The car had sat since Wednesday. No previous start issues, but Saturday it would not crank. Just a click when the key was turned. She said all lights and radio worked just fine. She tried a few times. Even moved the shifter to neutral and tried then back into park. Nothing. Then she tried again on Sunday. Same result. She decided to tow it to the dealer. Well this am she called to let them know it was going to be towed to them. The guy asked her what was wrong. She described issue and he said it was the battery, so she canceled the tow and called me. This is her original battery, so I'm inclined to agree. So I'm going by this evening after work to help her. She is closer to my work them home so I'm going straight there, but due to a late call from her I have no tools w/ me.

Please can you tell me... what are the sizes on the battery terminal cable ends and what size are the nuts on the tie down?

She has basic tools, so I'm gonna have to pick up the needed sockets and wrench. I want to pick them up on they way and not have to get a whole set for one or 2 sockets... But she can't tell me the sizes and I have had no luck searching them.

Thank you!!!

Now on to the other oddities that may or may not be related...

1- Tuesday, she was picking up my daughter from school after exams. Drove 20 minutes there, picked up my daughter and as they were driving she lost the power steering. She drove 15 minutes to the house dropped my daughter and continued another 15 min to the dealer. Once there the car sat the dealer checked it said they found nothing wrong and the cars power steering was back. No Check engine lights.

2- Wednesday she ran some errands car was fine. Lots of stopping and starting... all with the car properly warmed before shut off. It was a VERY hot day and she said she got home that evening about 8pm. She shut the car off, but the fan kept running. She had had this happen before and it would usually shut off in a few minutes, so she left it and puttered a bit and returned to check on it 10-15 minutes later. The darn fan was still going. She turned the car back on. Let it sit idling to the sure it reached the running temp to be safe to turn it back off without hurting the engine. This time the fan cut off fine. Again no check engine lights.

Then of course Sat the no start condition I mentioned above presented.

Thanks again!

 

0 - I want to say I did everything with a 10mm deep socket
1 - This is normal. Remove the airbox and you will see that the coolant overflow points directly at the electrical connection for the power steering. It will go in and out for a while before it just craps out. Clean the connections and either waterproof it with something or replace the overflow hose with something longer that you can point elseware.
2 - This is also normal as your mom had said. I believe the fan can run for a max of 20 minutes if I remember right. It will run until the car cools to a normal temp. Based on 1 and 2 I would start checking that coolant level though.

 

Issue #1 - No start - battery.

Issue #2 - Electric power steering gone - battery.

Issue #3 - Fans running - hot day + battery.

It may be as simple as loose terminals, if all the lights etc, work - the connection just isn't good enough to turn the starter.....

Battery bolts are all 10mm and 12mm.

 

Thanks for the helpful replies... so a deep 10 & 12 mm are on the list. I wil report back the results!

 

Everything in the thread to date are good things to pursue relative to your stated issue. Your comment about "1 click" on the starter also adds one more to the list for me which would be fouled connections to/from the starter (may be a combination of things happening here).

So if you try other suggestions and still not getting to a fix, you might also try the diagnostic below:

DIAGNOSE CAR STARTER ISSUE
Assumptions:
• Engine is not seized, turns over without binding.
• Battery is fully charged and in good health, proper fluid levels, etc.
• The starter is properly tightened with at least 2 of its bolts.
• All connections on the starter are tight and in good condition.
• Transmission is not an automatic. (see footnote 1)
• You are using a digital volt meter. (see footnote 2)
Notes:
• When testing at the battery- always test at the center of the 'post', not at the cable end.
• Transmission should be in neutral at all times.
• Be sure that all connections at the starter are complete through the entire test.
• Be sure to keep test leads, tools, body parts and pets away from belts, pulleys and any other part of your car that moves or rotates if the engine cranks or runs. it might just fire up when you don't expect it to.
• It does not matter which volt meter leads go where, red or black, positive or negative. Simply ignore the '-' symbol on your volt meter display. (see footnote 2)
• All test measurements will be taken while the key is in the 'crank' position, best to have a helper so you can focus on your test probes / measurement readings.
• The measurement of resistance (ohms) is basically useless when testing a starter system, understanding the 'voltage drop' of a circuit under load will expose a faulty component / connection.
• Avoid creating any sparks near the battery. Such as when hot-wiring and goof-ups.
• The solenoid is attached to the starter motor, and replacement starters normally come complete with a solenoid. Replacement of the solenoid alone, once the whole starter is on the bench is a simple process with just a few common tools.
• The solenoid has other functions for the starter. They are not important for electrical testing purposes.

First things first:
1. Confirm that the car is NOT in gear.
2. Measure the voltage across both battery posts while the key is in the crank position. If you measure less than 10 volts (and dropping) either the battery is not properly charged or may need service or replacement. Confirm the battery is valid before continuing.
3. Listen for the click at the starter.
If you get ONE nice, solid click out of the starter each time you turn the key you can (for the time) assume that the circuit that begins at your battery, goes through wires, connections, the ignition switch then more wire and connections is correct and complete (small red trace in figure above). The click you hear is the mechanical action inside the solenoid that completes the circuit that powers the starter motor. The solenoid will either click (pull) or not. There is no electrical gray area here. Note that this does not mean that the contacts inside the solenoid are intact - more on this in a moment.
If the click is more of a chatter, rather than one nice click, the above does not necessarily apply to you. Treat chatter as if without a single click.
From here there are two test sections, with single click and with no clicks.



WITH SINGLE CLICK:
Assuming your battery is OK, your problem (or voltage drop) is one of the following-
bad main battery cables or terminal ends including earth cable(s), connections at battery, bad solenoid contacts, or actual starter motor.
Test power to starter-
Place one of your test lead probes on the stud on the solenoid that your positive battery cable attaches to and the other probe to bare metal on the engine block or other solid ground point on the vehicle. Have your helper turn the key and read off the measurement. Note that when the key is not in the crank position you will read battery voltage on your volt meter (approx 12.6 volts). This is of little help and should be ignored for the time.

-roughly 10.5 volts or so- your cables and ends are fine and you may suspect the contacts in the solenoid next. To test them leave one test probe on the block and place the probe that you had on the solenoid stud with the battery cable to the other stud on the solenoid. There will normally be a heavy wire attached to this stud that goes into the starter motor body. Turn the key again and read off the measurement. if you have a very low voltage reading here there is a good chance at this point that the solenoid contacts have failed. If you have the same reading, about 10 volts, than the starter motor must be repaired or replaced.

-less than ~10 volts- you have a voltage drop and fun begins. First the positive, it's easier. Place one test probe on the + positive battery post and the other at the solenoid stud that that the battery cable attaches to (yes your test probes are at either end of the same wire). now turn the key to crank. a measurement above 1 volt is not satisfactory. it may not be THE problem, but should be corrected before continuing. to pin point the bad section simply place the test probes at any two points along the + positive path. Start with the center of the battery post, and 2 inches away where the bare wire slips into the battery terminal end. one tenth (0.10) of a volt is acceptable per connection. any higher than that (under load, which is to say while the key is held in the crank position) and the connection should be cleaned or repaired. Poke around and make corrections until you have under 1 volt from the battery (+) all the way to the solenoid stud.

Testing the ground path is basically the same with a few exceptions. There is no negative wire for the starter, it gets its ground from being bolted up, and relies on a good ground from the battery to the engine or transmission. Cars with remote mounted batteries often have no negative cable directly to the engine or transmission. They use one cable from the battery to a point on the frame, and then another cable from the frame to the engine / transmission. Both cables and all connections should be scrutinized. This method of grounding is not optimum. A piggy back, large gauge cable can be added with minimal effort.

To test the ground path start with one probe on the negative post on the battery, and the other probe on bare metal at the engine block or cylinder head. If you have already tested and repaired your positive cable the odds are that you'll measure more than 2 volts while the key is in the crank position. Use the same method as above to pin point the trouble section.

NO CLICK:
First make sure you have battery voltage at solenoid, (see 'test power to starter' above). Make sure the smaller lead on the solenoid is firmly attached and in good condition. Leave it attached while you make any / all measurements, this is critical. Place one test probe on the engine block or cylinder head, the other test probe on the small lead at the solenoid. If you measure above 10 volts while the key is held in the crank position than the solenoid windings have failed and the entire solenoid / starter must be repaired or replaced.

If you read under 10 volts then you have two likely possibilities. One is that the ground path for your starter circuit is not complete (see testing the ground path above), or your 'ignition switch' circuit including the famed 'brown wire', the ignition switch and all the cables and connections (red dots on the drawing above) involved must be tested. If an alarm has been installed, make sure to consider it and any relevant connections.
Why not start at the switch. Find the lead that brings power into the switch. Place one probe at this point and the other at the engine block. Crank it. Less than 10 volts here and you need to start testing upstream. 10 volts or more means the switch may be suspect. Leave the probe at the same point on the switch and take the probe from the engine block and place it on the lead from the back of the switch to the solenoid. A measurement of 1 volt or more indicates the ignition switch has failed and must be repaired or replaced. Less than 1 volt means the problem is between the switch and the solenoid. Check and clean any connections you find.

footnotes:
* Cars with automatic transmission have a 'neutral safety switch', power from the ignition switch to the starter solenoid trigger will only flow when in Park or Neutral, assuming the switch is in good working order.
** Many analog volt meters require that the positive and negative test leads are connected to the appropriate (+/-) points in the circuit. When measuring for drops on the same path keep the positive test probe closest to the positive post at the battery.

 

Wow thanks again to you all. Sorry it too so long to get back here. That night I got mom's battery out and to the store. They battery was testing at 3.5 Volts. Nice. So new battery and her baby cranked right up! Yes 10mm was the magic socket for the terminals and tie down. Thank you all.

I also saw the wires right below the coolant overflow tube... gonna tackle the reroute for her soon. So farall is still doingwell for her

Fyi... my delayed return to the forum was due to the Verizon update for my DROID x. The gingerbread update killed it (bricked). Be wary of updateds! A bit of online research and i'm back in business though.