Input shaft bearing???
 

ok so here's the situation...i have a 2005 rx8 manual tranny with almost 70,000 miles

i have a horrible grinding sound when the clutch is out...doesn't matter if the tranny is in gear or not

mazda "master technician" told me that it was the throwout bearing and the clutch probably needed to be replaced.

so I bought an ACT clutch, pressure plate and pilot and throwout bearings...replaced them...still the noise

so i come on here and search and call one of my buddies who works at a transmission shop...he said it sounds like the input bearing and couldn't believe the mazda guy said it was the clutch

so i think i'm going to have the input bearing and synchro's replaced

any other suggestions???
does this sound like what is actually wrong???
do i have grounds to go to mazda and tell them they misdiagnosed the hell outta my car (that i bought from them) and they need to refund me the 98 bucks i paid to have it misdaignosed???

thanks for all the help guys and girls

who did the install of the act stuff?

if you put the transmission in neutral while stopped and push in the clutch what happens?

when did the sound start?

does it grind on the 1st to 2nd shift..

my first guess is the ppf is not aligned and the pilot bearing is bad.. it is often not replaced even thought you get a new one in the kit..

beers :beer:

one of my friends (mechanic at a nissan dealership) and his coworker did the job

regardless of whether or not the tranny is in gear or in neutral there is NO noise when the clutch is depressed

no grinding on shifts

they supposidly replaced the pilot bearing

whats the ppf? pressure plate to flywheel?

it started about a month ago as a quite noise...well you know what..actually i heard kinda a loud "thunk" then started hearing the noise...quitely...until now where it has become a full blown loud ass crazy noise when the clutch is out...not depressed...thanks for the quick reply...any other advice is appreciated...they are gonna pull the tranny back out tomorrow to take to the tranny shop for me so if i could have a few things for them to check that would be much appreciated!

the ppf it the power plant frame.. if they just pulled the trans and slapped in a new clutch and did not align the ppf you are some what screwed.. a non aligned ppf tends to vibrate or chatter, but what you are dealing with could also be a symptom...

also have you had the motor mounts replaced?

do you have a service manual?

beers :beer:

no i do not have a service manual...you think the noise coming from the tranny could be from the motor mounts? why would the frame need to be aligned...and why would i be screwed? i will ask them tomorrow...

so swoope i take it you are not leaning towards it being something inside the tranny then?

clutch fork...

has that been recommended to be replaced at the time of repair? if thats outta spec...what would it matter if the new throw out bearing is new or not? its still not a tight fit, and would be a contributor to some noise no?

hard to tell without hearing the sound.. if the clutch is out it is not the to bearing.. it could be the pilot bearing.. compounded if the ppf is not aligned..

it is not the motor mounts, but if they marked the ppf and put it back where it was and the mm were changed the rules change..

give me a few and i will see if i can link the ppf directions..

beers :beer:

i have to change computers.... how about you send me a pm with your email address and i will send you the pdf.

beers :beer:

hard to tell without hearing the sound.. if the clutch is out it is not the to bearing.. it could be the pilot bearing..


i didn't necessarily get this part? what do you mean with "if the clutch is out it is not the bearing"?

thanks for all the help man

nothing about the clutch fork...i can have them check when they drop the tranny tomorrow...i'll be up there when they do it...

so here's what i got so far

ppf not aligned
clutch fork
pilot bearing...maybe they didn't replace it

so nobody is really leaning towards the input bearing??? i guess thats good news...keep the ideas comin please...

swoope you have a pm

input bearing, throw out bearing, pilot bearing...sounds like all the same to me. different name for the same part.

could maybe need an minor adjustment to work with no noise...maybe more. older cars with a cable clutch simply adjust cable. hydraulic may have some different adjustment if any is available.

have someone just have a once over at the system. could just be a clearance problem...but i can't believe a fork was not recommended with the repair procedure.

its not a rattle tho man...it def. sounds like a spinning metal on metal noise

are your talking about a shift fork? or the clutch fork?

the clutch fork is almost a no wear no replace ever item...

what are you going to adjust????

beers :beer:

again...swoope, input/pilot/throw-out bearing...how many bearings are there in a clutch? they are in reference to the same piece thats connected to the clutch armature and is what separates them via the clutch fork.

and what does the motor mount have any to do with this? its not a clank/clunk on accel on/off issue that he's complaining of.

http://foxed.ca/foxed/index.php?page=rx7manual

start there. then go down to rx8....

click on 2003 workshop manual..

left side click on transmission / transaxle.

that will open a new window or tab..

click manual transmission.

click transmission removal/instalation. it will open in the other window or tab.

all the info is there..

if you cant get to it let me know i will go back and email you the pdf..



beers :beer:

it really sounds like simply a classic case of clearance issue you got there. the fork would need to come up with some clearance for the bearing to settle seated, and not be partial on/off the disc creating partial clutch disc contact at all times.

simply put, improper clearance= excessive wear and early clutch failure.
have it done right. and bring it back to the dealer.

ok well here is a clip i found on youtube...wish i could get up there tonight and get something for you guys...but this is as close as i could get...its kind of a wierd video...and the noise is MUCH louder on my car than in this video...just notice how the noice sounds like metal on metal and a spinning...and the guys car is not moving
and notice when the sounds occurs and when he has the clutch pedal pressed or released

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FR6aXKu4EI

my fault...i should have mentioned...i typed it on the first try but my computer messed up so i had to start the first post over...

the flywheel looks almost brand new...and the stock clutch looked like it was in good condition...actually still has some good use left on it...im hanging onto it in case i have any issues with the ACT clutch and pressure plate...so i repeat...and apologize for forgetting to mention it earlier..

THERE WAS NOT SIGNIFICANT WEAR AND TEAR ON THE CLUTCH...i replaced the clutch as per diagnosis of the mazda technician after he heard the sound he said...hey that sounds like the throwout bearing...which if that's what it was, the clutch would be worn out excessively correct? and it is not

there are no bearings in a clutch. what does that have to do with this issue..

the pilot bearing is in the rear of the motor. that is what the imput shaft goes in.. could be a area of noise.. the t o bearing touches the clutch could be a area of noise.. the imput shaft has a big bearing that could be the source, but that has not been an issue before..

the clutch fork does not spin or have anything to do with anything if the clutch is out.

the motor mounts have a big to do with the ppf alignment. that has a whole lot to do with how the clutch and transmission functions.

so i guess if it is the clutch fork you win?

beers :beer:

whatever you like calling it, or whatever the manufacturer prefers to call this piece... its the throw-out/input/pilot bearing noise.

in neutral-its a constant noise. and the noise stops as the disc is separated when the clutch pedal is depressed, right? right.

so i still don't get why the fork was not recommended along with the repair procedure. its whats controls this bearing... and how's the clearance and adjustments if at all performed?

i'm wondering if they def. did replace the pilot bearing...the pilot bearing going bad wouldn't necessarily cause any excess wear or tear on the clutch right...or wrong? the noise def. sounds like something spinning...leaning towards a bearing right now...just which one...please god someone say they fucked up and didn't replace the pilot or release bearing and its not the input bearing in the tranny

no.

if a throw out bearing is failing it will make noise when you push in the clutch.. it is a hi pitched squeal...

how loud is it?

beers :beer:

ps...can we please not turn this into a dick measuring contest...i have been drinving my uncles beat up ford f-150 and can't take this bench seat much longer...i want my comfy bolstered seats that are attatched to my beautiful rx 8

SWOOPE...def not a squeel...raw metal on metal spinning sound...like i said...can be heard from a good 100 yards away...oh yea...def. nice and quite when you push the clutch in...only noise when clutch is out

get out you owners manual and read.. or start you own thread for advice..

beers :beer:

that's what i got goin on

let me see if my memory is clear swoope k? have patience before i really need to dig up the service manual.

motor-flywheel-friction disc/pressureplate/throw out bearing/clutch fork---input shaft/trans.

and in that order.

am i missin something?

give the ppf info i have given you .. if the clutch was good when it came out that is kinda a sign right there.. the clutch was not the problem. clutches do not squeel. they chatter or vibrate..

my best guess is pilot bearing made worse by misaligned ppf... or you could also have a failing clutch pedal that is putting just a bit of pressure on the to bearing..

right now all one can do is try to point you in the right direction.. i hope the online manual helps..


beers :beer:

yes the pilot bearing, and how the clutch adjusts..

beers :beer:

swoope...how could my ppf just suddenly have become misaligned tho? it was aligned properly for 69,000 miles and at 69,054 decided to become misaligned? no it def. was NOT the clutch...the clutch was not messed up at all..i thought all along that the clutch felt fine...hell the tranny feels fine changing gears driving the car...its just a noise...a very loud metal on metal grinding/spinning noise...thats what has me leaning towards a bearing...but still not sure obviously...trying to go over the manual right now

ok tskel, and swoope...sorry if i'm being a dick.

i know what it is. and i know the symptom. and just have patience, let me bust out the service manual. i can state the clearances and specs... though whoever did the repair is probably a dumb-ass and don't know how to use the service manual or have the proper tool to measure the clearances. so here it comes.

and to answer the earlier q's, no. a clutch can be fine and throw-out bearing go bad. for example...do you ride your clutch? do you step on it even if not goin anywhere?

see, you can step on the clutch all day and not use the friction disc once... that'll kill the bearing for sure. does that answer the question good enough?

they took the trans out to replace the clutch? if they did not do what is in what i linked, well there you go...

and it is common for people not to replace the pilot bearing as it take a special tool to get it out, and it is a bit of a bitch..

so the noise was there before and after? correct. the clutch looks fine. what does that tell you..

btw, a very long shot...

http://www.finishlineperformance.com...4-06-1641a.pdf

hey. but what do i know..


beers :beer:

ok be patient w. me...not very knowledgeable when it comes to transmissions...

the noise was there before and after...that is correct...the clutch looks good...that is correct...i don't know what that tells me tho swoope...im still trying to sort through the manual

you miss the point there is nothing to clearance. it is self adjusting...

did you read the part where the throw out bearing when it fails makes noise when the clutch is depressed???

the throw out bearing is not in use when the clutch is out..

i do have one note on the exception on that in my posts..

beers :beer:

ok so this is important right here...

basically...those looking at this thread have said NOTHING about it actually being the tranny correct??? this is extreemly important right now!!!

ok. pilot bearing is on the friction disc side. mazda decided to mess with me and call this the clutch release collar...

so its that...

as for the clutch adjustment... look up anything with clearances on clutch slave cylinder and you'll sure come up with something. being its a hydraulic unit, it can have too large of a gap leading to too much free play. or too close, and binding...like always riding on the clutch pedal, never fully disengaging the disc and partly slipping...early disc failure.

the pilot bearing and clutch release collar are not the same...i'm looking at the diagram right now

the pilot bearing is between the flywheel and the clutch disc while the clutch release colar is on the transmission side of the clutch cover..

it goes
flywheel--pilot bearing--clutch disc--clutch cover--clutch release colar

ok so can someone do this for me...

when the clutch pedal is OUT/NOT PRESSED IN...what all is SPINNING

i know stupid question...but please can someone give me details as to what exactly is spinning...only reason i ask is because it is the sound of something metal rubbing on something metal while its spinning...just trying to get a list of things..what i have right now is

pilot bearing and clutch colar...anything else?

the pilot bearing is what is in the motor. it is what the nose of the input shaft rides in...

not sure what mazda calls it..

wow, trying to help is hard!!!!! :)

beers :beer:

ha no shit man!!!! thats for all of it tho guys! the clutch release collar is the same thing as a throw-out bearing or release bearing right...just trying to clarify

clutch, clutch disk, input shaft. flywheel, engine. ah i see where you are going with this...

beers :beer:

well i know its not the clutch and not the clutch disc and not the engine and not the input shaft...does the collar release bearing spin when the clutch pedal is out? or is the pilot bearing the only one that spins? or does it even fucking spin

thats what i clarified if i accidently confused of the name. but regardless, its "clutch release collar" (throw out) or what not.

but here's the catch: the system can be in proper installtion order. but was the system bled?

do that. and after the clutch slave (clutch release cylinder) is bled, check other adjustments... if you're looking up the manual, go to clutch pedal adjustment, pedal stroke inspection/adjustment. pg 5-10-4.
and pedal play... and this is where i mean adjustments.

if measuring pedal play (5-15mm) and if measuring pedal push-rod play.. and you should come up with 0.1mm-0.5mm.

they both do. and always in constant contact of something. one (like swoope clarified) rests on/in the friction disc, and the other (clutch release collar) rests and controlled by the fork.

clutch release collar inspection 5-10-15. i can pretty much guarantee that something there is outta order.

o btw, here with only 5k miles. after noticing someone with an 06 and around 20~k miles, i noticed the collar noise. mine just started to have very slight noise, but gone only when pedal is depressed.

so like i said, this symptom i know for sure...and it must seemingly be a design flaw.

that is the gear rollover. it is normal... you have to understand that the transmission is about 24" away from you ears..

it is the input shaft spinning in the trans... if you can sit in another rx8 you will hear the same thing.. it sounds worse if you are sitting in a garage..

as for a design flaw, you decide. it is what it is.. :)

beers :beer:

tom,

here is the photo.. it is not charles, but the same issue...

https://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php...&postcount=162

btw, after the talk. cant wait to see how this plays out.. wack.

beers :beer:

good find swoope. you seem to know where the answers to problems are posted on here.

good luck helping him, i hope you got him what he needs.

as for me...i can live with it. it barely started as i put more miles on, but is very slight. i can live with it... it ain't getting noisier and i'm still under warranty.

i hope i did to, but the issue here is out there a bit.. :) wack..

find someone in your area and compare, it will ease you mind...


beers :beer:

no shit its out there a bit...i swear this has to be simpler than we are making it out to be...